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S.E. Cupp Unfiltered

Mayor Pete Buttigieg (D) South Bend, Indiana Is Expected To Announce Official 2020 Candidacy Tomorrow; Sen. Bernie Sanders (I) Vermont On Being Millionaire: I Didn't Know That It Was A Crime To Write A Good Book; Supreme Court To Hear Scandalous Trademark Case; Rep. Stephen Lynch (D-MA) Interviewed Regarding Mueller Report; House Democrats Give IRS Ultimatum Over Trump's Tax Returns; House Oversight Committee Plans To Subpoena Trump's Accounting Firm; Trump Considering Releasing Detained Immigrants In Sanctuary Cities; First Photo Of Black Hole Released This Week; Acting Defense Secretary, Draws Skepticism Of Space Force Plan; Trump Admin. Vows To Return Men To The Moon By 2024. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired April 13, 2019 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:00:00]

S.E. CUPP, CNN UNFILTERED: Welcome to Unfiltered. Here is tonight's headline. It's Hoosier versus Hoosier. All eyes are on South Bend, Indiana Mayor Pete Buttigieg, who has had quite the week, following an impressive first quarter fundraising haul of $7 million, he surged in the polls. The latest figures from Iowa and New Hampshire, two early primary states, have him in third place behind Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders. That's right. A guy whose name most people couldn't pronounce until a couple weeks ago is third in the polls. He's getting a ton of media attention, including an appearance on Ellen this weekend. He hasn't even officially announced his 2020 candidacy yet. That's expected to happen tomorrow in South Bend.

But his biggest news came with his war of words with fellow Hoosier, former Indiana Governor turned Vice President, Mike Pence, over God and marriage. It all started at the LGBTQ victory fund national champagne brunch last weekend, when Buttigieg, who is gay, zeroed in on Pence's past anti-LGBTQ policies.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR PETE BUTTIGIEG (D-IN): Speaking only for myself, I can tell you that if me being gay was a choice, it was a choice made far, far above my pay grade. And that's the thing I wish the Mike Pences of the world would understand, that if you've got a problem with who I am, your problem is not with me. Your quarrel, sir, is with my creator.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUPP: Late this week in an exclusive interview with CNN's Dana Bash, the V.P. responded this way.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MIKE PENCE, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: I think these quarrels with the first amendment. All of us in this country have the right to our religious beliefs. I'm a bible-believing Christian. He'd do well to reflect on the importance of respecting freedom of religion of every American.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUPP: And that was followed by Buttigieg's response on Ellen yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUTTIGIEG: I'm not critical of his faith. I'm critical of bad policies. I don't have a problem with religion. I'm religious too. I have a problem with religion being used as a justification to harm people and especially in the LGBTQ community. I'm not interested in feuding with the Vice President. But if he wanted to clear this up, he could come out today and say he's changed his mind that it shouldn't be legal to discriminate against anybody in this country for who they are.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUPP: And for his part, Pence defends policies like the Religious Freedom Restoration Act as preventing discrimination against people of faith. Whomever you side with, it's an interesting and refreshingly civil discussion between two men of faith who I think deeply believe what they're saying.

Buttigieg on the one hand has lived and experienced the very discrimination he attributes to Pence's policies. Pence on the other is like millions of other Christians and Muslims and Jews in this country who believe marriage should be between a man and a woman.

Neither is taking a huge risk here either. Buttigieg's views are in line with his bases and Pence will find plenty of support for his views on the religious right. And it's a smart strategic decision by Buttigieg as he introduces himself for the first time to millions of Americans, he's engaging millennial voters for whom LGBTQ rights are uncontroversial and long overdue. And it sets him apart in a very crowded democratic field, to great effect, as evidenced by those surging poll numbers.

But some other polls are important for Buttigieg too, polls on gay marriage. A majority of Americans, 67 percent by Gallup's last polling in 2018, believe marriage between same sex couples should be legal. Even among religious Americans, gay marriage is polling better and better.

A PRRI, Public Religion Research Institute survey of more than 40,000 Americans found two-thirds of Catholics, orthodox Christians and white mainline Protestants are now in favor. Support is growing among Mormons and Evangelicals. Majority support now includes African- Americans up to 52 percent, Hispanic-Americans are at 61 percent. In fact, Alabama is now the only state in the country where a majority of residents say they oppose same sex marriage.

Here's the deal. America is, in short, moving on from its homophobic past. It's still out there, of course, but LGBTQ equality is the future. As someone who has long supported gay rights even before many democrats did, my message to republicans has been unequivocal, resist this progress at your own peril.

But there's another part of the story that's getting less attention and I think it's just as important, if not, more so.

[18:05:02]

Buttigieg's LGBTQ message is a good one. It's personal for him. But the other democrats running for president also share his views. What they can't all do is speak personally and convincingly about God. They'll all try, of course, but Buttigieg is a devout unapologetic Christian. He speaks his conviction fluently and with alacrity.

That's frankly something we haven't seen in a long time from a democratic candidate. That's important. Whatever you believe, and I'm an atheist, 73 percent of the country is Christian. Buttigieg is speaking for and to moderates who are maybe turned off by Trump's politics of revenge but feel like progressives don't get them either. His message of Christian compassion may very well resonate with those voters. Buttigieg is reminding Middle America what it sounds like when a democrat talks positively about God.

Joining me to discuss, our former Executive Director of the New York State Democratic Party, Basil Smikle, and former RNC Comms Director, Doug Heye. So, Basil, how good has this fight with Pence been for Pete Buttigieg?

BASIL SMIKLE, FORMER EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, NEW YORK STATE DEMOCRATIC PARTY: First of all, Mayor Pete has been phenomenal on the campaign trail. And I think this fight with Pence is certainly good for his fundraising because he can show what differentiates him from the other democrats is he's actually having a current fight with this administration in the person of Mike Pence.

But I think what's also interesting, and you've talked a bit about this, he's not just calling out Donald Trump, he's actually calling out, I think, republican hypocrisy. Not all republicans, but some certainly republican hypocrisy, particularly among the Evangelicals who sidled next to Donald Trump. And for Mike Pence who will talk about maybe attacks on his religion, but the fact that he uses religion to justify his policy decisions. That's what's really dangerous.

And I think for Mayor Pete to call that out is certainly within his right and purview to do so. And that, I think, to be able to extend that through the campaign is only going to be very good for him in terms bolstering his numbers.

CUPP: Well, Doug, I mean, this high-minded, very polite conversation between two guys who are like, all due respect, no, all due respect, is one thing. But can Mayor Pete Buttigieg, can he handle Trump the same way or is he going to sort of get sucked into Trump's vacuum of name calling and all that?

DOUG HEYE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. We hear the word resist from democrats so much. And what it often means is the more to opposed to Trump, the more they act like him. And we see that so much with the AOCs of the World. Pete has a very different message and a very different messenger.

CUPP: Yes, great point.

HEYE: And if we talk of Iowa nice, there's also Indiana nice, which why you see Pence and Butteigieg really trying to out-nice each other, but that's also because they have a personal relationship. We forget Mike Pence was the Governor of that state, worked with Mayor Pete when he was mayor.

It's also, again, as we've seen so much divisiveness and nastiness in our politics, whether from the President or form democrats, but they can have these kind of civil conversations, to some extent, uplifting.

CUPP: It really is. And, look, I think Buttigieg has a shot at this. It's a long shot but I think he's got a shot. But could he also be setting himself up for Veep? I mean, if a more progressive candidate wins the nomination, he might look pretty great on the ticket as sort of a balance from Middle America and of a different --

SMIKLE: Sure. As you talked about from the Midwest, he presents a good balance to perhaps whoever's at the top of the ticket that may have to be Trump-like to be able to go at Donald Trump. But the truth is, what do we know? 18 candidates in this race, a lot of them are vying for number two at this point, especially because you have this (INAUDIBLE), especially as you have the same three in Biden and Bernie and maybe Pete and maybe Beto in some cases sort of moving -- sort of staying at the top three.

So, yes, I think he'd be a great number two. And I think he actually may be, in many ways, representative of the future of the Democratic Party.

HEYE: Number two at the polling.

CUPP: Well, wouldn't be interesting because, as I mentioned, Doug, I don't think you hear a lot of candidates talking about God the way Pete Buttigieg can. And we heard a little of it this week. But if you go back, you can find real muscular defense of Christianity, speaks the language fluently. I think that's really interesting and maybe an indication that the GOP's stronghold on religion might be over, especially with Trump in the White House.

HEYE: And there's been a real increase in democratic Evangelicalism, especially among African-Americans, African-American women, for instance, African-American mothers especially. So this is an area where he and other democrats, if they're willing to step forward, can make some inroads into democrats.

And the other thing I find and, I'll tell you, anybody who has spent any time around Pete Buttigieg knew that he was capable of this. I've been around him twice. He was the former President of the Harvard IOP, Institute of Politics up there, and got to see him action. I knew three, four years ago this guy is a star. He just didn't know what it was going to be.

[18:10:01]

And to me, to some extent, he's Beto O'Rourke but with substance, and that's a real difference.

CUPP: No, that's what I said. All the Beto fans are spelling Buttigieg wrong. I mean, I think he's the better version.

SMIKLE: And I think what's interesting, according to reporting on CNN's own web site, the sort of not religious is now just as popular as people who identify themselves as Catholics. And that's actually really important if you're Mike Pence and republicans because what you have the ability to do, and I think it's unfortunate, but what they could end up doing then is sort of painting millennials or painting democrats as sort of being not particularly religious --

CUPP: Secular.

SMIKLE: Don't have God, secular, don't have God at the center of their lives. And I think that's what Mike Pence is setting up to do but I don't think that that's going to work in the long run.

CUPP: Interesting. Guys, sit tight. You're not going anywhere just yet. There's too many 2020 candidates to it there, just the one.

Next up, champion of the working class and new member of the 1 percent, Bernie Sanders makes his pitch to voters in the Rust Belt this weekend. And a little later, the President leans in to a legally questionable plan to bust migrants to sanctuary cities. Don't go anywhere.

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): I didn't know that it was a crime to write a good book, which turned out to be a best seller.

[18:15:01]

And my view has always been that we need a progressive tax system, which demands that the wealthiest people in this country finally start paying their fair share of taxes. If I make a lot of money, you make a lot of money, that is what I believe. So I don't apologize for writing a book that was number three on The New York Times best seller, translated into five or six languages and that's that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUPP: all righty then. Current democratic 2020 front-runner Bernie Sanders during a stop today on his tour of Rust Belt states responded to this week's revelation that he's a member of the 1 percent, a group he has spent his political career attacking. Bernie's favorite boogeyman, banks, corporations, millionaires and billionaires now include him. Maybe that accounted for the earlier foot dragging on releasing his tax returns, which he now appears ready to do, pledging to release ten years worth by Monday, tax day.

But will Bernie's authenticity on economic inequality take a hit if it turns out he's been benefiting from the very rigged system he's long railed against?

Back with me are Basil Smikle and Doug Heye. Guys, let me start by saying, I don't care one lick that Bernie is a millionaire. Maasel (ph). Good for him. And I don't think it's hypocritical for him to have personally benefitted from a capitalist system while openly opining for a more socialist one. I do wonder though if his message is going to ring a little more hollow now.

SMIKLE: I'm not sure that it will ring a little hollow. Look, I think his core supporters are going to say, good for Bernie, it's a book. Politicians write books, good for him.

CUPP: Yes.

SMIKLE: I will say this, so two things. One, in terms of the release of the taxes and on the campaign trail, he's still got to be able to advocate for all the things he advocated for previously. That's where that consistency becomes very important.

CUPP: Yes.

SMIKLE: I will say this though, just a little caveat, because I remember 2016 and I remember him and some of his supporters railing against Hillary Clinton and others for making these speeches. The truth is that whether it's Hillary Clinton getting paid to talk in front of very influential people or Bernie Sanders writing a book, it's getting paid for your intellectual capital. And you know what, I don't have a problem with that.

CUPP: No.

SMIKLE: And I think making democrats -- it's sometimes sounding like democrats should hate rich people is wrong because there are people that want to be rich too. We just don't want the system to be rigged. So focus on that.

CUPP: Well, look, we know he's a millionaire. I come to expect all politicians are millionaires these days. I mean, that's just how it seems. And my main problem with Bernie's branding has always been that he's not an outsider. He's a career politician. He's been in politics for 30 years. There's nothing outside about him.

But what could we learn from these tax returns that might really shake up his base? I agree. If it's just that he made money from a book, probably not. But are there things in there that could be problematic for him?

HEYE: Well, obviously, we know that he owns several houses, and that potentially could be an issue. But, ultimately, I don't think any of these is going to be an issue for Bernie.

CUPP: What about stocks? Let's say stocks in some very 1 percent company?

HEYE: Sure. I mean, if he is invested in Montgomery Burns Nuclear --

CUPP: Right, right, right.

HEYE: Then, yes, that's a problem. But, ultimately, as we learned from Donald Trump, authenticity is in the eye of the beholder and is in the eye of the voter. And so if Donald Trump can be the great white hope literally for Evangelicals, then, clearly, Bernie Sanders supporters are not going to get terribly worked up unless he is invested in Globotron and plastic straw manufacturers, all those liberal boogeyman. Otherwise, he's fine.

CUPP: Does he need to come out and say, yes, I've benefited from the system and I should pay more taxes, like a Warren Buffet kind of thing?

SMIKLE: Yes, he should, and he'd better, because it does go back to his authenticity. Voters tend to forget a liar but not a hypocrite. And if he doesn't do those things, he will seem extraordinarily hypocritical. So, yes, I think we're going to be looking for that on the campaign.

CUPP: So his Medicare for all legislation is an expanded version of ones that he has previously brought up. He virtually eliminates all private health insurance.

As noted in Politico this week, he has fewer allies than he did two years ago. Senator Al Franken isn't in Congress anymore and Jeanne Shaheen dropped off the bill this year and no new senators have signed on since. Does that put him in a tough spot?

SMIKLE: Not really in part because I actually think the American people are where he is.

CUPP: And that's what matters?

SMIKLE: And that's what matters today. They want to see some movement on this. I thank others that have come before him, the aforementioned Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, by raising this issue about trying to reform healthcare. So I do think that there is a progression that the American people are buying into.

CUPP: He needs to tell us how he's going to pay for it though, right?

HEYE: Well, that's always the dirty little secret for democrats.

SMIKLE: Yes.

HEYE: I think here's what the vulnerability is for them. They did massively well. It's why they took back the House in 2018. It was healthcare, healthcare, healthcare.

CUPP: Yes.

[18:19:59]

HEYE: But they have moved so far to the left in just six months that it gives Donald Trump and Senate and House Republicans a real opportunity to say, if you like your plan, you might be able to keep it. But democrats are already saying, you won't even be allowed to have any private healthcare insurance, and that's going to scare voters.

CUPP: Do you think so?

SMIKLE: It might if it's not explained properly because I think you're right. Remember when Barack Obama kept saying, you can keep, you can keep, and then all of a sudden, you couldn't. And that was a problem, right?

CUPP: Yes.

SMIKLE: Now, some people wanted to say he lied. I don't think he lied. But voters don't want any surprises on something like healthcare. It's too important to so many Americans.

CUPP: Well, there's going to be a big surprise. The -- what am I trying to say? The price, the price tag is going to be a big surprise. I think there's going to be a lot of sticker shock if we actually get a price tag for some of these huge, huge, sweeping big new government projects, like Medicare for all or free college for all.

SMIKLE: But the question is does that enable Americans to get closer to the American dream? Those two things, healthcare and education are the two items that put more Americans in debt and keep them from being able to do things, like get a house. There are a lot of parents out there that are like get my kid out the house. You can't do that because of student loans.

CUPP: All right. Doug, Basil, thank you so much for spending time with me tonight.

The president finds himself back in an adversarial groove, reigniting a political fight over an actual issue that needs solving, immigration. I'll talk about that in a bit.

But, first, Congress wants to see Trump's taxes. Are they barking up the wrong tree? Stay right there.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUPP: Let's talk about the Supreme Court. The justices on Monday are set to hear a trademark case by the maker of a fashion brand called Friends U Can't Trust. Do the math. We'll see where this is going. Erik Brunetti, whose clothing line goes by its off-color acronym sued the government after his trademark application ran afoul of the immoral and scandalous provision and was rejected. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the federal circuit ruled in his favor saying the first amendment protects private expression, even when that expression is offensive to lots of people, citing a previous Supreme Court decision, which struck down an adjacent part of the law against registering disparaging trademarks.

So it seems the oversized, baggy, skate pant designer has a pretty good shot at victory with an appeals court, the ACLU and the precedent on his side. But not to worry, should he prevail, you can only buy his products online. I'll be back in two minutes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUPP: In the Red File tonight, more oversight, more investigations. The House Oversight Committee plans to subpoena President Trump's financial statements from his accounting firm on Monday. And today, House Ways and Means Chairman Richard Neal issued a ten-day ultimatum to the IRS to hand over the President's tax returns writing in his two-page letter, quote, I am aware, the concerns have been raised regarding my request and the authority of the committee. Those concerns lack merit. I expect a reply from the IRS by 5:00 P.M. on April 23rd, 2019. Please know that if you fail to comply, your failure will be interpreted as a denial of my request.

The House's Oversight coincides with Attorney General William Barr's looming release of a redacted version of the Mueller report expected, according to the A.G. himself, early this coming week

Joining me now is Massachusetts Democrat Congressman Stephen Lynch, a member of the House Oversight Committee. Thanks for joining me.

First, on the plans to subpoena Trump's accounting firm for financial statements, tell me what is the basis for that subpoena?

REP. STEPHEN LYNCH (D-MA): Okay. So when Michael Cohen testified a few weeks ago, he not only gave oral testimony, he also brought three sets of filings, financial reports, that belonged to Donald Trump and that had been used previously and prepared by Mazars USA. So those documents, we believe, are inconsistent with some other filings that the Trump campaign made or the President has made. And so much we'd like to find out which are correct. And so we've asked for more documents that are related to those three financial reports that were received from Mr. Cohen.

CUPP: Okay. And so turning then to the tax return ultimatum. The first request was ignored. You have admitted in your committee. You've gotten exactly zero documents in response from the White House. Trump's Chief of Staff, Mick Mulvaney, has said openly, democrats will never see the tax returns. So what's the plan from your committee if the administration just keeps stonewalling up through the election?

LYNCH: Okay. So under the Revenue Act of 1924, we actually -- well, Mr. Neal's committee is named in the statute and he has the right to have the IRS deliver those returns to his committee.

CUPP: Yes. LYNCH: And then after that point, if the Ways and Means Committee determines that there's a legitimate basis to share those with the House and Senate, then it can do so.

But at the end of the day, this is going to end up in court. And so we've made -- Mr. Neal's committee has made a request to the IRS -- actually to Secretary Mnuchin to deliver those tax returns. And this will go before a judge, we think, after, as Mr. Neal has noted, he interprets the White House response as a refusal, which gives him a reason to go into court.

[18:30:07]

CUPP: Got it. OK, so six House committees have opened Trump probe. Your committee is looking at hush money, Trump businesses, security clearances. Look, I think oversight is important, super important, but do you worry that this looks to voters like your priorities are off, that you were elected to legislate and not just investigate?

LYNCH: Well, we can't exempt somebody from the law, so we have a responsibility to do our jobs and that's what we're doing. I think that with the tax returns, it may open up a whole menu of options for Oversight, where to focus. But from my committee's standpoint, my subcommittee on National Security, we think that the security clearance issue for Mr. Kushner and others is very, very, very important.

We think the President has repeatedly overridden the basic process and procedure for granting National Security clearances. We think he's done so to the detriment of our nation's security, so we have to require him to abide by the law.

CUPP: Yes, I think that's important too. Let me just lastly get you on Bill Barr. Were you satisfied with AG Bill Barr's testimony this week or do you believe like some of your colleagues that he is protecting the President?

LYNCH: Well, I can only answer that when I see how much of this report or how much of the 400 pages has been redacted. If it's all blacked out then obviously we have to try something different, but --

CUPP: We'll have our answer. Yes.

LYNCH: Right. Right, we will.

CUPP: Congressman, I appreciate your time tonight and always nice to see my hometown in that back drop. I appreciate it.

LYNCH: Thank you. Thank you.

CUPP: All right. Lawyers told him the plan was not legal, but apparently the political points are worth it. Immigration seems to be a problem few want to actually solve. I'll have that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [18:36:31] CUPP: First, the President said the country was full.

Now, he says, "No, wait. It turns out we do have room." He'll just send the undocumented immigrants to sanctuary cities. The White House downplayed news of the imposed plan saying it was inform and quickly rejected, but the president hopefully contradicted that statement just a few hours later.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We are looking at the possibility, strongly looking at it to be honest with you. California, certainly, is always saying, "Oh, we want more people." And they want more people in their sanctuary cities. Well, we'll give them more people. we can give them a lot. We can give them an unlimited supply and let's see if they're so happy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUPP: There are numerous problems with this plan. First and foremost, it's illegal. Also, it undercuts Trump's own promise to deport undocumented immigrants. It would be prohibitively expensive, it wouldn't solve any immigration problems and if it ever actually came to pass, it would likely infuriate his own base.

But this isn't the only dumb idea the President has toyed with lately. He's also reportedly suggested denying entry for asylum seekers. Again, illegal. Even allegedly promising the Border Patrol Chief he'd pardon him if he got in trouble for carrying out his wishes. Give him points for creativity, but not so much governing.

Senior Administration official told CNN, quote, the President refuses to understand that the Department of Homeland Security is constrained by the laws. Laws? What laws? For more on this controversy, I'm joined by CNN Boris Sanchez from the White House. Boris, what's the latest out of Washington?

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Same thing different day, S.E. What I've heard from White House officials on is this idea the President consistently brings up strategies or perhaps approaches to immigration that are illegal, not within the purview of the president is part of a theme. It's an approach that the White House has towards policy.

Some would say it's partly because President trump doesn't really have experience in politics, because he doesn't know the legalities of immigration. Others as you just showed there from a senior administration official suggests that the President simply doesn't care. And I've heard this comes up time and time again when it comes to trade, tariffs, foreign policy.

The President has an unorthodox approach and frankly many times that inclination has had to be reined in. And this issue illustrates a case in point. The White House initially brought this up to DHS lawyers back in November, around the time of the midterm elections. It didn't go anywhere then. It came up again in February and then yesterday we initially had the White House put out a statement saying this was just a suggestion, this wasn't anything that they intend to pursue.

Shortly before President Trump came out and said, "We are strongly considering this as an option." So he is obviously the lead here when it comes to immigration policy, followed closely Stephen Miller. His policy adviser, both of them very hawkish on this issue, one that the President cares about very much so.

And in his eyes or from what I've heard from sources, it's more important to appear aggressive on this issue than to be right legally. That's why you see him offering to pardon the head of customs and border protection if he does follow his orders and break the law by stopping asylum seekers at the border. He really wants to appear aggressive, unorthodox, anti-establishment doing into 2020 on an issue that many here in Washington see as having become stale, S.E.

[18:40:02] CUPP: Boris, thanks. I appreciate it. Now, let's bring in former DNC Comms Director Maria Cardona and CNN Political Commentator Ben Ferguson. Ben, I'll be honest I think to a lot of people especially in Trump's base, the idea of dumping illegal immigrants in sanctuary cities sounds perfectly reasonable. It's in fact something my dad would suggest.

But you're smart, you know it's illogical, it's impractical, it's illegal, so what's the point of the politics of revenge? What does that accomplish?

BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I'll be honest with you and people that I talked to in the White House they did not look at this as an issue of revenge. They look at this issue of, "OK, Democrats refusing to admit there's a problem at the border." They say it's a manufactured crisis. You've got a hundred thousand last month that were detained coming across the border, 4,000 a day. Former Obama secretary said, "Look, over a thousand a day is a crisis, 4,000 a day this is clearly a crisis."

CUPP: Jay Johnson, yes.

FERGUSON: Jay Johnson, and they say, "Look," Democrats say, "No, no, no, there is no crisis. There is no crisis." And I think the point the President is making is, "OK, if you say it's not a crisis and you think that sanctuary cities work, we will be happy to send a hundred thousand people to all of the sanctuary cities every month and you guys at some point will figure out in reality this is a massive crisis and be forced to actually change the laws."

CUPP: But we can't. We can't. I mean, sometimes you - put Ben hold on.

FERGUSON: And they're not doing that and that's when the President put it out there.

CUPP: You have a kid, I have a kid, sometimes I put my kid through exercises to teach him a lesson, right?

FERGUSON: Yes.

CUPP: The Presidents of the United States can't do that with hundreds of thousands of people in our cities just ...

FERGUSON: If Democrats are acting like kids though.

CUPP: No.

(CROSSTALK)

CUPP: Maria, go ahead.

FERGUSON: Here's my thing, S.E., if you have a hundred thousand coming across the border illegally, they're acting like kids.

MARIA CARDONA, FORMER DNC COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Thanks. Hey, Ben, it's my turn. My turn.

CUPP: Go ahead, Maria.

FERGUSON: Hi, Maria.

CARDONA: Hi, Ben. So first of all, Democrats have always said this is a humanitarian crisis. We have said that it is a manufactured crisis when the President wants to declare a national emergency for something that isn't a National Security crisis. The problem with this President is that he does not see immigration as a problem that needs solving only a solution to his political problems.

FERGUSON: Sure, he does.

CARDONA: And so when you have the President, I mean let's just think about this, S.E., two things, the President is treating these migrants as if they were the bubonic plague or as if they were a biochem weapon to be released into sanctuary cities.

FERGUSON: Not true.

CARDONA: And to do what, what does he hope that they'll do? If he thinks that they are MS-13 gang members or criminals, does he hope that they're going to kill American citizens and therefore get back at Democrats? Number one.

FERGUSON: That's absurd.

CARDONA: Number two ...

FERGUSON: That's absurd.

CARDONA: ... number two, let's think about what the President just did this last week. He offered a pardon to the new Head of Homeland Security for him to break the law. I mean, that is not normal.

CUPP: Let me take it from there, Maria.

FERGUSON: They also put out a statement saying that didn't happen.

CARDONA: That is not appropriate.

CUPP: Let me just take it from there.

FERGUSON: They put out a statement saying that did not happen.

CUPP: Hold on.

(CROSSTALK)

CARDONA: ... that's an impeachable offense.

CUPP: Guys, one at a time, one at a time. I'm in charge here.

CARDONA: Tell them that.

(Crosstalk)

CUPP: But let me just take that last point that Maria made. Ben, I'm old enough to remember when you and I would rail against President Obama for something we called executive overreach and this President makes that look downright cuddly.

FERGUSON: Yes.

CUPP: Doesn't it bother you that he repeatedly looks for ways to break the law or go around Congress and expand the authority of the executive?

FERGUSON: Look, I think this President sits in a room and he sees a big problem with a hundred thousand people coming across the border and he sees the Democrat's refusal to work with him or to actually change the laws and they refuse to admit there's a crisis. So he looks at every other option on the table that he can get his hands on ...

CUPP: But this option isn't on the table.

FERGUSON: ... and that doesn't mean he's going to go with it, but that's just we're at a point --

CUPP: This option, he doesn't have this as an option.

CARDONA: Exactly.

FERGUSON: Well, but he looks at it as, "Is this an option? Is that an option or is this an option?" Having a grand debate about this when you literally can't get anything done through Congress because Democrats refuse to do anything or even admit there's a crisis at the border.

CUPP: Yes.

FERGUSON: What else do you want the President to do? He's got to think outside the box. He's forced to.

CUPP: Well, and Maria I mean to Ben's point ...

CARDONA: Yes. CUPP: ... I think it's very uncontroversial to say that both parties

have enjoyed a broken immigration system, have politically profited on it both in fundraising and in elections. And Democrats have not offered a lot of solutions to solve some of these problems. I mean I can read from The Washington Post just two days ago, "House Democrats offer few remedies for border crisis as they plot agenda."

FERGUSON: Bingo.

CUPP: In the article it says the absence of a unified Democratic alternative to Trump's hard line vision reflects both the limits of legislative power and divisions on how the party should approach immigration policy in the face of Trump's open border attacks. Isn't it incumbent on Democrats to stop saying there is no crisis and actually come forward with some policy solutions?

[18:44:56] CARDONA: Well, again, they're not saying there's no crisis. They're saying it's a humanitarian crisis and actually representatives Zoe Lofgren and Jerry Nadler are working on a bill that would actually do something to solve the humanitarian crisis that exists right now at the border. Let's also remember, S.E., that the bill that was passed that kept the government or that stopped the government shut down, the money for the wall as well as other things contained money for additional immigration judges, for additional asylum caseworkers.

This President, what did he also say these last two weeks? He doesn't want any more immigration judges. He doesn't even want people allowed in to ask for asylum. So again this President --

FERGUSON: It's not an accurate statement.

CARDONA: It is absolutely accurate, Ben. This President is the one also --

FERGUSON: You're talking about the context, I can explain it to you.

CUPP: We got to go, guys.

CARDONA: This President is the one who also said no when Democrats came to him with an immigration bill.

CUPP: We got to go. It's a spirited debate. I appreciate it and I think a good illustration of how hard this problem is and it'd be great to have some adults on both sides of the aisle trying to solve it.

CARDONA: Agreed. Let's get one in the White House.

CUPP: Maria, Ben, thanks to you both. We'll be right back.

CARDONA: Thanks, S.E.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:50:33] CUPP: If you were like me. You were astonished this week to see the first-ever photographs of a black hole in space. Well, it has a name now, Powehi. A Hawaiian phrase referring to an embellished dark source of unending creation. It doesn't exactly roll off the tongue, but to more terrestrial matters, Congress doesn't get the President's pitch for a space force.

On Capitol Hill this week, Acting Defense Secretary Patrick Shanahan drew skepticism as he appeared in front of the Senate Armed Services Committee to pitch Trump's much touted sixth branch of the U.S. military. While senators agreed U.S. military presence in space is essential, many questioned whether a completely separate branch would just mean more money, more bureaucracy.

Few things get me as excited as space talk. Someone who shares my passion is CNN Presidential Historian Douglas Brinkley. He's author of the new book American Moonshot: John F. Kennedy and the Great Space Race. Congratulations. Debuting at number 10 on The New York Times bestseller list. So Doug, there's clearly still a great interest in space exploration, thankfully, but how is the way that Trump taps into that excitement different than maybe past presidents?

DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Well, I teach at Rice University in Houston and that's where on September 12th 1962 John F. Kennedy said we choose to go to the moon not because it's easy, but because it's hard and that speech of Kennedy is still loved by people that are rocket engineers, people working with NASA or the private sector's rocket industry.

What you hear going on with Donald Trump and the space force is I think he liked the idea of Reagan's star wars for their strategic defense initiative, just likes the sound of space force, but it's going to be pretty much a non-starter because Army, Navy, Marines and Air Force don't want to lose appropriations. They don't want to start sharing the space budget rocketry with a yet a brand new branch of the Armed Forces.

CUPP: Well, JFK as you've mentioned, he tied space exploration to this overt almost hyper patriotism. I wonder how that would go over today, what do you think?

BRINKLEY: It might. I just criticized space force of Donald Trump, but Vice President Pence's idea can we go back to the moon in four or five years speech he gave about two weeks ago in Huntsville, that's plausible, that might work. The spur for that will be China, because China is going to the dark side of the Moon and you might be able to get a competition to go back and after all Kennedy had said we'll put the first man on the moon.

We've yet to have a woman on the moon and that would be a big thing if the United States did that, because many women are now astronauts went back in the Kennedy era there were 13 women trained, but they weren't allowed to go into space.

CUPP: So President Obama he mentioned he was criticized even by astronauts like Neil Armstrong and Jim Lovell for underfunding NASA, canceling the Constellation program and its Ares I and V rockets, the Orion. Is our investment in space returning, do you think, when compared to past presidents?

BRINKLEY: That's a great question, S.E. In the mid '60s, the Kennedy effect, NASA was getting about 4.4 percent of our annual budget. Today you're dealing with NASA getting a third of 1 percent. So if the Trump administration is serious about going into space in new ways, then it's going to cost money. There used to be a saying around NASA in the early '60s, no bucks, no Buck Rogers. The Apollo program cost $25 billion, that's 185 billion in today's money.

CUPP: You know this summer is the 50th anniversary of the moon landing and there are all kinds of fun events around the country. There's an Apollo Palooza. There's a Summer Moon festival in Neil Armstrong's hometown. Boomers had Apollo and the moon landing. My generation, unfortunately, had the Challenger. Millennials maybe the Mars rover. What will the next generation have quickly?

BRINKLEY: Mars, I think Buzz Aldrin is alive and well and he's been saying the new moon shot is a Mars shot. If we look back to the moon, it would be as a stepping stone to eventually getting to Mars and it needs to be a human spaceflight, not robotic.

[18:54:59] CUPP: Well, that would just be so exciting. Thanks, Doug. The new book is called American Moonshot: John F. Kennedy and the Great Space Race. Go buy it today. Douglas Brinkley, thanks as always for putting all of that in historical perspective. That's it for me. Next up, Democratic presidential candidate Beto O'Rourke joins David Axelrod for an amazing extended interview on THE AXE FILES. Don't go anywhere.