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S.E. Cupp Unfiltered

Trump Vows Not To Work With Democrats Until Investigation Ends; Trump Called Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D) California Crazy Nancy, Says She Has Lost It; Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D) Massachusetts Focuses On Her Bio And Specific Policy In Pitch To Voters; Warren Focuses On Her Bio & Specific Policy In Pitch To Voters; Stacey Abrams: "Identity Politics...Exactly How We Won"; Trump Considering Pardons For Accused U.S. War Criminals. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired May 25, 2019 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:00:00]

S.E. CUPP, CNN UNFILTERED: Welcome to UNFILTERED. Here's tonight's headline. Being President isn't fun anymore. After a week that saw the President unravel at the seams, he's now in Japan, where he'll get to do the fun stuff of being President, a lavish banquet, golfing with Shinzo Abe, presenting a prestigious award at a Sumo tournament, being on the receiving end of pomp and ceremony. It's likely a welcome break from having to do the other stuff, like acting like a grown up and, you know, governing, both of which proved hard for him this week.

Trump stormed out of a meeting with Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senator Chuck Schumer to discuss a $2 trillion infrastructure plan. One of his signature promises because Pelosi hurt his feelings earlier. It was a great excuse to not work the latest and the string of them.

He used to complain about not being able to work because of the Mueller probe. That investigation is over. So he's insisting all the other investigations are why he can't work now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: And I told Senator Schumer, Speaker Pelosi, I want to do infrastructure, I want to do it more than you want to do it. I'd be really good at that, that's what I do. But you know what? You can't do it under these circumstances. So get these phony investigations over with.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUPP: The very stable genius can't work under these circumstances, circumstances being oversight, part of Congress's job, and manufactured crises of his own doing. Trump's run into obstacles in the work part of being presidenting before, stuff like having to negotiate with party leaders, offer policy suggestions that are, you know, legal under the constitution and also following the law.

Needless to say, he's found those technicalities annoying. Just yesterday, for example, a federal judge blocked him from using defense funds for his border wall, saying that money needs to be approved by Congress, foiled again.

Trump has relished the fun part of the job, the rallies, the parties, hearing his own staff sing his praises when prompted by him in front of the press. But his growing frustration at the work part of the job is leading some to believe he might be over it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): As the President said, if you don't -- if you don't stop investigating me, if you don't stop honoring your oath of office, I can't work with you. That's basically what he's saying. Maybe he wants to take a leave of absence.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): He is looking for every excuse. But now that he was forced to actually say how he'd pay for it, he had to run away.

HOWARD STERN, AMERICAN RADIO PERSONALITY: This was a publicity stunt.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANDERSON COOPER 360: Do you think he likes being President?

STERN: I don't think he likes being President at all. I think he liked winning the Presidency.

COOPER: Do you think he wants to get re-elected? Do you think --

STERN: I don't think -- I think, psychologically, if he really got under the hood, I think he'd say, what am I doing? I'm in my 70s.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUPP: Here's the deal, Trump doesn't want to be President anymore. I'm not sure he ever really wanted it. Sure he loves the trappings of the Presidency. He likes using the bully pulpit to threaten and intimidate and punish his opponents. He likes wielding his power and influence to cite his follower and test the loyalty of his subjects. But the job of being President, that wasn't ever what he was after. And now that the democrats in the House have some power and are using it, he really doesn't want the job.

And with democrats dangling impeachment, he sees an exit ramp. It's a perfect one, too. He gets to go out the victim of a witch hunt, a conspiracy to oust an otherwise competent and successful leader who just wanted what was best for us. It is exactly what he hopes democrats do.

And secretly I bet he is praying, it saves him from a second term. But that's letting him off the hook too easily. Frankly, he was elected to do a job and voters should decide whether he's doing it well or at all. That's what he doesn't want. In fact, the only thing he wants less than to keep having to do this job is for voters to take it away from him. Okay. Joining me to break this wild week down in Washington is former Clinton Press Secretary, Joe Lockhart. Joes, as someone who's worked in the White House side by side with a President who was also embattled during his presidency, what did you make of this week where Trump seemed to like hit a wall?

JOE LOCKHART, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes. I mean, I'll give Trump this much, it makes it harder when Congress is doing their job, whether it's the traditional oversight or even if it's a witch hunt, which this isn't.

[18:05:08]

But it doesn't make it impossible.

And it really does sort of draw a very stark contrast with when President Clinton was under investigation and then through impeachment. He said all along he was not going to get distracted by it. He didn't talk about it publicly. Anything he talked about, he talked about privately and he said I'm just going to go to work every day and do the people's business.

Trump, on the other hand, can't talk about anything else. He's made himself the victim-in-chief, not the commander-in-chief. And now, he has taken it to its logical extreme and says, I'm not working until you stop investigating me.

That's the -- I think that, first off, it's wrong, secondly, it's really bad politics when you put yourself in front of the voters.

CUPP: Well, just to play devil's advocate, does Trump have a point though that with constant investigations and talk of impeachment that any president would find these conditions difficult to work in? I'm sure Clinton did as well.

LOCKHART: Sure. And I think there's a simple remedy for it, which is he shouldn't have obstructed justice. But, you know, he's done that now so he has got to deal with it. I think some of this is just because republicans abdicated responsibility for any oversight for the first two years of his presidency.

So there was an enormous backlog of things that were going on that should have been investigated, and now he's playing the card of him being persecuted. But, you know, I don't know that there's anyone who thinks being President is easy and it's particularly difficult for somebody with Trump's skills or lack thereof.

CUPP: Well, look, every president has parts of the job they don't love. Obama wasn't the best at dealing with Congress. It just wasn't his thing. George H.W. wasn't a great orator. He wasn't great at selling himself or promoting himself, which is also part of the job. But Trump seems to dislike most parts of the job because he can't just do what he wants. He seems sort of ill-suited to be President, at least in this country, like a democratic one, with checks and balances and constraints on his power. Why would he want to keep doing it? LOCKHART: Well, I mean, I think he's -- for the very same reason as he ran for president, because he's addicted to the attention. That's what he likes in the job. He likes the fact that he can send a Tweet out at 6:30 in the morning and everyone in the world scurries around to try to interpret what's Donald Trump thinking. He's addicted to it. He loves it.

What he doesn't like and what distinguishes him from presidents before him is he doesn't like the actual work of governing because it's work. It involves endless meetings. It involves reading briefing books. It involves making very tough decisions, as opposed to just saying my gut tells me blank.

And that's if you talk to all the people who have come out of the White House, that was their great frustration, who worked in the administration, which is you'd have very complicated issues, the staff would do the work to try to bring a decision to him and it didn't matter what the facts were. He would say, I just think that this is the right way and, you know, he's driven off a lot of policy cliffs.

CUPP: Yes. Well, look, Donald Trump is not the first person to run for president for the sake of vanity. He's not the first politician that got into it because of a big ego. I'm wondering if you have any lessons or advice to, I don't know, the 23 democrats running, some of whom they must know they can't actually become president, that there's actually a job behind this that's really hard and really serious, and that they shouldn't be about stroking your own ego.

LOCKHART: Yes. Listen, I think there's certainly people in the race right now who are in the race either to make a policy point or to increase their stature and stature translates to power in Washington. But I don't see anybody in the democratic field and I didn't see that many people in the republican field last time who didn't want the job because they thought they could do something with the government, they could make change, they could make people's lives better.

Trump only cares about his life. And that's -- and that is what probably makes the burden of having the job to be crushing for him. Because, you know, every day, people are saying, well, what are you doing for me, and he -- that's just not something he's used to.

CUPP: Well, I've got to get your take on the press conference in which he cajoled his advisers to say something nice about him in front of the press. When you saw his various spokespeople, Sarah Sanders, Kellyanne, even Hogan Gibley, who was attesting to the Trump's behavior in the meeting he did not attend, when you saw them praising the President on command, what did you think as a former press secretary?

LOCKHART: I thought we were in North Korea, or we were in the Kremlin, or we were in Saudi Arabia, where a king was sitting upon the throne, and his servants were at his feet, you know, serving him.

[18:10:04]

It was humiliating for the people in the room. You know, I think I told people earlier in the week that most of them probably walked out and said, thank God, I wasn't under oath there because then I would have really had a problem.

CUPP: Well, that's a very generous way of looking at it. I hope that they were embarrassed. I'm not so sure. Joe Lockhart, thanks as always.

All right, there's a lot wrong with the President tweeting manipulated video of anyone, let alone the highest ranking woman in elected office, but it's part of a continued pattern. I'll explain what I mean, next.

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Do you think Nancy's the same as she was? She's not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUPP: That was President Trump Friday on the tail end of a three-day smear campaign against Speaker Pelosi. The surreal chain of events also had the President and his allies Tweeting a mashup of Pelosi that was altered to make as if she is drunk or slurring her words. Why? Because she hurt his feelings.

[18:15:00]

It culminated with this display on Thursday during a press conference that was supposed to be about aid for farmers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: You had the group, Crying Chuck and Crazy Nancy. I'll tell you what, I've been watching her and I have been watching her for a long period of time. She's not the same person. She's lost it. It was said when I watched Nancy all moving, the movement in the hands and the craziness, and I watched it. That's, by the way, a person that's got some problems.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUPP: Never mind the rich irony that the President frequently mispronounces and misspell words and flails his hands around during speeches and often speaks in incomplete non sequiturs. No. We're meant to take seriously that Nancy Pelosi, who was manhandled Trump in nearly every political battle, is losing it.

If that feels a little success, it's meant to. This is familiar territory for Trump who prefers nicknames for his male opponents but often saves the more visceral and visual insults for his females foes, like, Megyn Kelly, Carly Fiorina, or Mika Brzezinski. And that's makes what Trump's right hand gal, Kellyanne Conway, said this week about Pelosi even more ridiculous.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) KELLYANNE CONWAY, U.S. PRESIDENT COUNSELOR: She treats me as she might treat her maid or her pilots or make-up artists or her wardrobe consultants. And I told her, gee, it's so pro-woman of you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUPP: And yet, Conway stood by as Trump launched smears against another woman for three days, literally standing by, during the President's press on Thursday. Forgive us if we can't take the girl who cried wolf seriously or her chronically complaining boss who can't deal with the woman out maneuvering him.

Joining me now to discuss, CNN Political Commentator, Mary Katharine Ham. M.K., I will get to Kellyanne, but first on Trump. Pelosi clearly got under his skin. What did you make of him explicitly saying she's lost it mentally?

MARY KATHARINE HAM, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, first of all, I am not what I one once but I am as good once as I ever was, and they're words of the great Toby Keith. So, look, so, Trump, you know, I think she did get under his skin a little bit. As usual, there's a way that he could have a politically advantageous week where he could talk about infrastructure. As always, it's infrastructure week and then we end up doing this.

But in the end, I do wonder if it actually ever hurts him, like it is a given that this is offensive and stupid and silly, ridiculous behavior from the President of the United States of America. His approval rating is low 40s and has remained so, except for like a dip here and there, basically the entirety of his Presidency. So the question is whether a week from now this matters.

CUPP: Yes. And to that point, I mean, remember back Trump supporters spread conspiracy theories about Hillary Clinton's health in 2016. I mean, this might actually, you know, work for -- I mean, for folks in his base. He will not suffer.

HAM: Yes. And Pelosi, I think, partly because she is an effective leader of the democrats in the House remains a fruitful target for republicans. And I don't mean in this kind of trashy way, I just mean as a political adversary. She's from San Francisco but she's smarter than the parity of her, right? She is a San Francisco liberal but she's the one who told the democratic caucus, hey, like let's just keep beating up on him and investigating and not actually impeach, which is like actually not a bad strategy and that is what's bugging him.

And I will say one thing though, and I do not at all give him a pass for attacking her this way. Folks who have attacked his mental health for many years cannot all of a sudden been like -- if you've been 25th amendmenting all over the place, you can't be like, oh my gosh, who would talk about mental health?

CUPP: No. I think that's really -- it's a good point, for sure. He is not immune to this, you know, kind of criticism, for sure. A moderate woman, let's talk about that, they'll be an important voting block in 2020, they already have some issues with the President's behavior and let him know it in the 2018 midterms. Add to that what even some pro-life conservatives have called extreme abortion laws in southern states and now Trump's Smears against Pelosi, how is the GOP looking for women in 2020?

HAM: Why would you even ask me that question? No. Look, I think that I'm sort of like a persuadable voter now. I'm pretty independent. I'm center-right. I'm undecided just as I was in 2016. And It seems to me there's like an alienation-off going on, like were people want to alienate moderate women voters. And, again, this is not giving Trump a pass. It's just like they seem to swirl like two eddies against each other of just craziness.

And one of the reasons that Trump's approval rating stays where it is, I think, is because the 2020 democrats are often dragged into their Twitter base, which, as we know with Trump, the base is not going to get you everywhere, same with the left.

[18:20:05]

If you start fighting those fights that they want you to passionately fight, you're going to get further and further away from Midwestern voters, from some moderate women. But it goes to that saying isn't Trump's helping here.

CUPP: No. So let's talk about Kellyanne. Where do I begin? I've noted on this show and elsewhere that crying sexism any time she feels slighted or cornered is really -- it's a go-to move of hers. Just a brief list, Dana Bash, Chris Coumo, Anderson Cooper, Kellyanne, call them all sexist, either during or after interviews with her. She called Mazie Hirono sexist for attacking Brett Kavanaugh. Cory Booker is sexist for running against woman candidates. It's so stupid for lack of a better word, but I'm also old enough to remember when conservatives used to hate exactly this sort of thing. So what's changed?

HAM: Yes. You and I both know that sexism against, well, women in the public eye, women, in general, and center-right, center-right or center women is a real thing. But here's the problem with all of this stuff is crying wolf. And so now, the folks in the White House have decided that they're going to play that game as well.

And it's -- this is part of the trade or this is the part of the deal that people made when they voted for Trump and I didn't want to be a part of it, which is we're just going to play by their rules now and make we're going to make them play by their rules and everything is going to be an identity politics war for us as well.

And I don't want to be that person. But that is -- that's the style of the Trump White House and it will continue to be the style of the Trump campaign and a lot of conservatives and female conservatives will be like, I'm not sure I want to play this game.

CUPP: Well, here's hoping. Mary Katharine Ham, thanks so much for joining me. I appreciate it. Happy Memorial Day.

HAM: I'm glad to be here.

CUPP: Weekend. Yes.

Still to come, I'll speak to a retired general who thinks that even entertaining the idea of pardoning accused war criminals is both dangerous and immoral. But, first, stick around to hear about my candidate of the week. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUPP: While Joe Biden's long buildup to announcing his candidacy for president sucked up a lot of oxygen the past few weeks, one candidate has been slowly, steadily making some positive head way. Elizabeth Warren, our candidate of the week, is enjoying some more positive press coverage than she did before. The average of polls over the last ten days show Warren is sitting third behind Biden and Sanders. So is it just a good week or should Biden and Bernie be worried?

Joining me to discuss this is former DNC Chairman, former Vermont Governor, Howard Dean. Governor, polling from last year actually closely matches polling from the last ten days. The positioning of the candidate is actually remained pretty static. Nonetheless, I'm sure of Elizabeth Warren would prefer this week to some other not so great once she's had. What would you say about her ability to stick despite, you know, 23 other candidates?

FMR. GOV. HOWARD DEAN (D-NY): I think it's very good. You know, when somebody announces, they tend to get knocked down. The press builds them up until they announce and then they really let them have it with a bunch of stories that aren't very nice, that people leaked to them in many cases and so forth and so on. And that's pretty much is the rule for everybody who announces, whether it's first or the last.

Elizabeth got through that. And so she got knocked down and now she's building herself back up again. That's a very good sign. That's a ritual you have to get through and she's going through it. So she's -- I think she establishes the real deal.

CUPP: I think you could argue and maybe disagree, but I think it's not controversial to say that Sanders and Warren are fighting over similar constituencies. And I think if they continue to split the progressive vote without one of them dropping out, they're probably just going to hand Biden the nomination. Should one of them at some point tell the other one, hey, you got to sit this one out?

DEAN: Well, I think we have a fundamental difference of opinion about why people vote. I actually don't believe people vote on issues very much. I know democrats, especially well educated ones, always like to think we do, but we used -- we vote on emotion just like every other voter does. We just think and issues become proxies for our emotions.

So it is true that Bernie's voters and Elizabeth's voters and some other voters for other candidates as well could be classified as progressives. But I think it's really more of a feeling about the candidate and whether you like the candidate or don't like the candidate or respect the candidate. So I'm not so sure that both these candidates can't do well and survive with each one of them in the race.

CUPP: Well, that's interesting. Warren, as you know, has been hammering policy, which is very refreshing, even if you disagree with her solutions. Do you think though that that might put her in a top spot in a general election committing so early to really granular, progressive policies?

DEAN: I don't think so, because Bernie would have done well last time around against Trump also. Again, it's -- I think the strength of Elizabeth is actually very similar to the strength of Bernie, not so much in their progressive politics, although for people who consider themselves progressives, that matters, it's because she says what she thinks and she's out front about it.

People like that a lot. I saw there was an article at last couple of week which she went in front of a bunch of Trump voters and they came and went away saying, hey, we really like her. Well, it's not because they're on the left, it's because they like the fact that she's outspoken, which is also what they like about Bernie.

CUPP: Well, I mean, we should acknowledge that she also doesn't poll very well in her home state and her unfavorability is high, higher than most of the other candidates. Does that worry you? Should it worry democrats?

DEAN: Look, it always is a worry when unfavorability is higher. I have to say that part of it is sexism among the voters. Most of the negative opinions of Elizabeth Warren are not coming from democrats. They're coming from other people that are polled, and you know that the Trump faction in partly is successful because they're sexist. I mean, Hillary Clinton, there's no question, there was an anti-woman vote in the last election in 2016.

So I'm not terribly worried about Elizabeth's negatives. I think most of those are coming from people who weren't going to vote for the democrat anyway.

CUPP: Well, let me just press you on that before we go. Trump's unfavorables are also very, very high.

[18:30:01]

On what basis are you suggesting it's just sexism against Elizabeth Warren?

DEAN: Well, as you know, I mean, Trump is incompetent and he's a crook. I mean, there's a reason it's high. I mean most people don't like the President of the United States to be a crook.

CUPP: OK. I mean to be clear, his unfavorables were high from the beginning, so were Hillary Clinton's because she also made some very terrible decisions to a lot of voters. I'm just not sure that we can assume because she's a woman her unfavorables are because of sexism.

DEAN: I don't think that's necessarily proved because I said it, but it's not unlikely because there are a lot of people in this country who are not ready for a woman president and this is the kind of thing that seeps in to this. I personally don't think there's enough of those people to cost us the election. We have four or five very capable women candidates running for president out of the 24 and I'd be delighted to see one of them get the nomination.

But I do think their negatives are partly higher because people are afraid of a strong women particularly on the other side of the aisle.

CUPP: Former presidential candidate Governor Howard Dean, always a pleasure. Thanks so much for coming on.

DEAN: Thank you. Thanks for having me on.

CUPP: I'll have more on the Democratic Party's 2020 goals and even throw some math at you, that's next.

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[18:35:08] MAYOR PETE BUTTIGIEG (D-IN), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Democrats sometimes out think ourselves a little bit on this topic of what's called electability. Sometimes we pick somebody who is less inspiring that we think will also be less risky and we wind up getting somebody that's neither.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUPP: I wonder who he's talking about, Hillary Clinton. South Bend Mayor and presidential contender Pete Buttigieg at a town hall meeting in New Hampshire yesterday hit on an issue that the Democratic Party is wrestling with in this primary. Twenty-three Democrats vying to take on President Trump, so the internal and external calculations about who can and who should rise to that challenge and how are intense.

Some say electability is bogus, meaningless not a thing. Others say it's a factor but not the only factor and others say, "Screw electability. Let's go for purity." So which idea is right? Well, this week math weighs in. In his FiveThirtyEight blog this week, Nate Silver says the numbers suggest moderate Democrats have higher favorability ratings among general election voters, lending some cred to the notion that ideological extremes are less electable.

But before Joe Biden starts measuring the drapes, let's talk it over with my all star panel, CNN Political Analyst Ryan Lizza, CNN Political Commentator and Senior Columnist at The Daily Beast, Matt Lewis and Democratic Strategist Basil Smikle.

So Basil, I start with you because we have talked about this before and you have said electability is subjective.

BASIL SMIKLE, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: It is.

CUPP: Sure. But shouldn't things like a candidate's favorability or unfavorability, shouldn't that matter? SMIKLE: Those things absolutely do matter.

CUPP: OK.

SMIKLE: Because something especially like unfavorability, that's a hurdle you have to get over and sometimes your personality, your policies may not do that. People, they just not like you.

CUPP: Yes.

SMIKLE: But electability is something that's more nebulous.

CUPP: Fluid.

SMIKLE: It's very fluid. And the truth is and I think one of the things that's reflected in the polls is that yes, extremes positions do frightened people and Biden specifically is a known quantity and that's why you see the numbers the way they are. They can change but the fact is people know Biden and then there's a comfort level there that I think is a proxy for electability.

CUPP: Ryan, I think to Mayor Pete's point we can, in both parties, overvalue candidates who seem less risky and then we get someone who's less inspiring. I think Republicans might have done that with Mitt Romney. I think Democrats did not do that with Obama and it paid off.

RYAN LIZZA, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes.

CUPP: Do you think that's kind of the point he's trying to make here?

LIZZA: Yes. Look, that's a great test case. In 2008, someone with the name Barack Hussein Obama and ...

CUPP: And just an unknown really.

LIZZA: ... well, yes, and a black male ...

CUPP: Or little known, yes.

LIZZA: ... never been a major party nominee, it was a huge risk. Pundits, primary voters, anyone were not very good at like telling who's electable, right?

CUPP: Yes.

LIZZA: Nobody thought Donald Trump was electable and he's now president.

CUPP: I definitely did not, yes.

LIZZA: And I also think there's one other problem with this nebulous concept of electability, especially as the press and pundits often use it. It sometimes is a stand in for white guy.

CUPP: Yes, right. LIZZA: Because most presidents in our history, the ones who were

elected were white men. So I think if you're Elizabeth Warren or Gillibrand or Cory Booker and you are not a traditional what seems like the traditional president which most of them have been white men or a gay man like ...

CUPP: Pete Buttigieg, yes.

LIZZA: ... Buttigieg, then that means you're not electable. So I think we have to be very careful with that word, because it sometimes excludes, in a diversifying country it can exclude a lot of people.

CUPP: But, Matt, there's also a thing called math and you have to look at the demographics of the country, you have to look at the way people have voted in the past, right? I mean isn't that kind of part of predicting what's going to happen?

MATT LEWIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, look, I think number one numbers don't lie. I mean it's possible numbers will change. It's possible that that somebody will gain traction. But I think you had a very good point about Joe Biden. Like not only is Joe Biden somebody who is seen as temperamentally moderate, not only is he way ahead in the polls right now, but he is a known commodity.

So just like Donald Trump and this is what Donald Trump had going for him last time is that he has this name ID and honestly there's almost nothing Joe Biden could do that is going to bring him down. Joe Biden can't commit a gaffe that's going to cost him his likability.

SMIKLE: That's right.

LEWIS: Elizabeth Warren can and has done.

CUPP: Yes.

LEWIS: But Joe Biden is pretty much a known commodity.

CUPP: Well, I mean, the --

LIZZA: Never underestimate Biden's ability to commit gaffe.

[18:39:57] CUPP: Yes, well, people test that I'm sure multiple times. Basil, Georgia gubernatorial candidate Stacey Abrams made a point this week of saying that Democrats won in 2018, albeit not her, by actually sort of leaning into identity politics.

SMIKLE: Yes. Yes.

CUPP: And that to me true but would seem to then disqualify Biden, Bernie, Beto, maybe even Buttigieg.

SMIKLE: Yes.

CUPP: What do you do about that?

SMIKLE: So I don't have a problem with identity politics like others do, because to me identity politics is your lived experience. If you're African-American, a woman, a veteran, a farmer, and what makes a good campaign is trying to connect the connective tissue that unites all of those groups.

Unfortunately, a lot of it now is in the pejorative because it's, again, a proxy for sort of minority voters, and a lot of people don't like that. But I think if you're going to be a good campaign, if you're going to be Joe Biden, if you're going to be Kamala Harris, whoever is out there. The way to do it is to try to get people to understand how we're more alike than we are different but there's nothing wrong with being different.

LEWIS: The problem with identity politics though --

CUPP: Well, yes, and I don't think it's necessarily focusing in on minorities, I think you could argue Trump played on identity politics as well. To me it just seems a politics of division and playing on people's divisions. And I don't I don't I don't love that as a project.

LEWIS: Yes.

SMIKLE: Well, if you think about, just very quickly ...

LEWIS: Sure.

SMIKLE: ... think about why Obama was very good because he found a way to unite the country.

CUPP: Coalition building.

SMIKLE: Right, exactly.

LEWIS: But the problem with identity politics is ...

LIZZA: Without skewing identity politics completely.

SMIKLE: Correct, yes.

CUPP: Yes.

LEWIS: The problem with identity politics is it means different things to different people, but the things that scares me is identity politics being predictive. In other words, if you're a white man, you will always vote Republican.

CUPP: Right.

LEWIS: If you're a black man, you will always vote Democrat. The problem with that is then ideas don't matter, persuasion is not existed. And so right now Democrats are basically saying we want Joe Biden. Even in South Carolina, African-Americans are saying, I think that's a great side and also it should go the other way as well.

CUPP: Final word, Ryan. LIZZA: I mean, look, the reason we have identity politics

historically in this country is because people based on their identity were excluded. So when you are excluded based on your identity, you're going to band together with people of the same identity to make a case for the rights you should have. So we have a long history of identity politics. It's as old as America.

CUPP: Thank you. Thank you all, fine gentlemen.

LEWIS: It's horrible and Donald Trump did it and it's not good.

CUPP: Thank you. OK. Ryan, Matt, Basil, you all have to come back. We'll do this again, I'm sure a thousand more times. Thanks for spending some of your holiday weekend with me.

When we come back, our Commander in Chief may be disrupting military order. That's the opinion of one retired general. I'll speak to him next.

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[18:46:22] CUPP: In THE RED FILE tonight, President Trump sparked a flood of outrage from unexpected corners when his Justice Department's pardon office asked the military for case files for at least two service members accused of war crimes including Navy SEAL's Special Operations Chief Edward Gallagher and Army Major Mathew Golsteyn.

From retired generals to former diplomats and human rights groups, the idea of pardoning soldiers accused of shooting unarmed civilians and killing prisoners was met with outrage. While he wanted to issue these pardons on this Memorial Day weekend. He said just yesterday, he will wait until after their trials to make the final decision.

Joining me to discuss this is retired Lieutenant General Mark Hertling. General, you wrote a really powerful column for CNN about this and you called these pardons immoral. Tell me why.

MARK HERTLING, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: All military personnel, S.E., are part of the profession of arms. And as part of that profession, there are values, and ethos and ethics associated with the things we do. Military Personnel do not abuse detainees or POWs.

They do not take property. They don't harm non-combatants and they do all they can in a free society, soldiers in a free society to limit the damage they do when they're executing violent operations, which combat is. To have someone say that you're going to pardon someone who has violated those rules, those morals, those ethics, in my view and many of other soldiers' view is immoral.

CUPP: In addition and I don't think you'd find much argument on that, but in addition, is there a practical concern that it disincentivizes soldiers to a whole ...

HERTLING: Yes, sure he does.

CUPP: ... rules of engagement in the Geneva Convention and all of that when the President of the United States is pardoning soldiers for disregarding them.

HERTLING: Yes, it certainly does and we train heavily all new soldiers and soldiers who are going into combat, all military forces, I should say, to obey the rules of engagement, it's the laws of land warfare to understand the ethos of combat. And as tough as it is, you have to train them, because you're constantly placed in situations where you're making decisions and it's tough.

It's emotionally and psychologically draining in some cases where you have to make decisions. And unfortunately, when you're hanging a pardon over someone's head, you get soldiers in the field questioning, "Hey, is all of that training worthwhile? Why am I doing this? If I violate this, someone is just going to pardon me later on." And, yes, that does contribute in discipline, in units and a lack of teamwork and trust.

CUPP: Yes. Where do you think this is coming from? I know the President watches Fox News and there's reporting that at least one commentator there was lobbying him to do this, but I mean it doesn't seem to make any sense to what advantage is the President contemplating this? What's behind this?

HERTLING: Well, yes, I don't know but all I can say is it seems to be part of a pattern, because remember, there have been many times in the past where the President has advocated torture. He's endorsed torture. He has said to kill terrorists families on several times during the campaign. He has talked about taking property from other countries as part of the spoils of war.

So there seems to be a pattern and it also seems to be something that people who have never been to combat think is the tough way to approach it. These are what soldiers do. Well, I got news flash, no, they don't. We trained to do exactly the opposite and unfortunately people who don't understand that might think this is the right way to go about it. It's the tough guy approach.

[18:50:10] CUPP: Well, the President is in Japan and I don't know if you've seen, but he just sent a tweet about how North Korea fired off some, quote, small weapons which doesn't disturb him as president but maybe disturbed his hosts in Japan. Your thoughts?

HERTLING: Yes, I don't know. To be honest with you, there are so many things he says versus being placed in a situation where he has to actually act. I'm not even sure what that means. I don't think he should be looking at it from the standpoint of eminent danger. He should be looking at it from the standpoint of how is it affecting what his strategy and his policy is.

CUPP: Yes.

HERTLING: Since we don't know what his strategy and his policy is, we don't know, but it's not a case of eminent danger. It's actually what is working and what's not working.

CUPP: General Hertling, I really appreciate your time on Memorial Day weekend. Thanks so much. Thanks for your service. HERTLING: Thank you, S.E.

CUPP: We'll be back after a quick break.

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[18:54:32] CUPP: I'm sure you've heard about the over the top ways some employers are trying to keep their employees happy and healthy, onsite massage and meditation rooms, rock climbing walls and game parlors, five-star cafeteria food and even on tap. Here in our new digs at Hudson Yards, we've got some pretty fancy bells and whistles. I'm not going to lie, I'm kind of obsessed with the sparkling water tap in every kitchen.

But you know what I take over all of the cool new perks? One degree warmer on the thermostat. You feel me, ladies. I know you do. It's an ages old battle of the sexes, who controls the office temperature. Warmer on the thermostat. You feel me ladies I know you do. It's an ages old battle of the sexes, who controls the office temperature.

For decades, it's been men. Most modern offices use climate control systems based on the metabolic rate of an average 40-year-old man. That temperature is almost five degrees cooler than a woman's ideal temp which is why you'll often see us huddled over portable space heaters wrapped in shoals and blankets like mummies, and sipping piping hot tea in the middle of summer.

As my husband is fond of saying, "You can always add layers, I can only take so many off." Well, there's a reason to crank up that office thermostat. A new study shows women are in fact more productive when the office temperature is a tick warmer. Science.

In this latest study published by the journal PLOS ONE, women score better on math and verbal tests when the thermostat was set to higher temperatures. Just upping the temperature by one degree Celsius was linked with a 1.76 percent increase in the number of math questions solved correctly by women.

This makes total sense to me. I am terrible at math and also always cold. That's what I call causal. I bet if I were warmer I'd be doing equations on the windows like in A Beautiful Mind and Good Will Hunting and every other movie where no one seems to ever have any paper.

But the bottom line is if you employ women you may want to consider boosting our productivity and your bottom line by making the office just a degree or two warmer. Don't worry guys, I think you'll survive. OK.

Quick programming note, tomorrow night, see what happens when victims and offenders of violent crimes meet face-to-face on the new CNN Original Series THE REDEMPTION PROJECT with Van Jones. That's tomorrow night at 9:00 followed by UNITED SHADES OF AMERICA with W. Kamau Bell at 10:00 pm. CNN NEWSROOM is next, stick around.

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