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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Former Trump Adviser, Peter Navarro Convicted of Contempt of Congress; Mar-a-Lago IT Worker Struck Cooperation Deal with Special Counsel in Classified Documents Case; Colorado Lawsuit Seeks to Keep Trump Off 2024 Ballot; New CNN Poll: Voters Worried About Biden's Stamina And Sharpness To Serve Effectively As President; Police Searching Longwood Gardens In Hunt For Escaped Inmate; Property Cleared Of Guests, Employees Sheltering In Place; Rescue Efforts Underway In Turkey To Save American Man Trapped In Cave; Hurricane Lee Strengthens To Category 4 Storm, Expected To Hit Category 5 Tomorrow. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired September 07, 2023 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because of the fatigue and excitement, I think we're not as sharp as we need to be.
DANNY FREEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: (voice over): Warden Holland declined our request for an interview.
DEB RYAN, CHESTER COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: This is an outrage. This should have never happened.
FREEMAN (voice over): Today, Chester County district attorney said her attention is solely on the manhunt and the family of the woman Cavalcante killed, Deborah Brandao.
RYAN: They do have protection and they are terrified. They haven't left their home. They're barricaded inside and very concerned about their safety.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FREEMAN (on camera): And Erin, we're just reporting on some breaking news out of this area. We can report now that Longwood Gardens, that botanical gardens we've been talking about all week has been closed due to police activity on there.
They've cleared all the guests. They're telling people on there to shelter in place, still no capture at this time, though -- Erin.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: All right, obviously, they could be moving in quickly.
Danny, thank you very much. And thanks to all of you for being with us.
AC 360 starts now.
[20:00:53]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Tonight on 360.
Breaking news: The millions of dollars in legal bills Rudy Giuliani faces and why tonight's $100,000.00 a plate fundraiser might only put a dent in them.
Also tonight, Employee 4 flips. What the Mar-a-Lago IT specialist knows about the documents case, and what he could be prepared to say in court.
New polling on the president and if age is just a number so is the stunningly high percentage of Democrats who wish they had someone else to vote for.
Plus more breaking news, people sheltering in place in Pennsylvania, where there is a manhunt for the escaped killer who has been on the run for more than a week.
Good evening. Thanks for joining us.
We begin tonight with significant new developments in and around the former president. One of his former advisers, Peter Navarro, was convicted today on contempt of Congress charges. He, along with Steve Bannon defied subpoenas from the House January 6 Committee. Bannon is appealing his conviction.
And in a combative post-conviction press conference, Navarro said he would do the same.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETER NAVARRO, FORMER DONALD TRUMP ADVISER: This is a landmark case. This is a landmark case that is bound for the Supreme Court.
Why do I say that? This is the first time in the history of our republic that a senior White House adviser, an alter ego the president has ever been charged with the alleged crime.
That is the first time that this has ever happened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: We've also learned through a court filing in the Mar-a-Lago case that IT worker, Yuscil Taveras, has reached a cooperation agreement with Special Counsel Jack Smith. Now, the filing marks the first public acknowledgement that potential key witnesses flipped.
A filing as well in the Georgia case, attorneys for the former president making it formal, notifying the judge they might try to get the trial moved to federal court.
Here now with the latest, CNN chief correspondent, Kaitlan Collins and CNN senior legal analyst, Elie Honig.
So, Elie, correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't seem like Peter Navarro has much of a chance to on appeal. I mean, this is pretty cut and dry, isn't it? ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: I don't think you're wrong. I do think he -- look he will get to appeal to the intermediate court of appeals. This is not a landmark case.
COOPER: Yes. I mean, I know he's trying to make himself seem more important, but --
HONIG: Right. I think he's got a little bit of an overinflated sense of self at this point.
COOPER: It is also very specific. It is a landmark case, because it's the first time the alter ego of the president has been charged. I don't even know, is that a thing?
HONIG: That's not a legal term. Alter ego of the president is not -- it is a landmark case to him, but here is the problem. There could have been an interesting constitutional issue here if the question was what happens when Congress subpoenas someone from the executive branch and they invoke executive privilege?
The problem here is the judge held a pretrial hearing and found there was no indication of executive privilege. It's something you made up and there's no facts --
COOPER: He could have also appeared and just pled the fifth.
HONIG: A hundred percent. He could have avoided all of this by either appearing and testifying, or just showing up and taking the fifth, no contempt, none of this would have happened. He brought it on himself.
COOPER: Kaitlan, is Peter Navarro still of interest to the former president or to Trump world? I mean, is this is something that they would fundraise off.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF CORRESPONDENT: I mean, clearly not enough for Trump to say yes, I did invoke privilege over this because that was what was at the heart of this, was he was saying that Trump did and that is why he did not respond to that subpoena. That's why he didn't comply with it.
But Trump never came and offered any testimony or they never wrote anything, or had any evidence that Trump had actually done that. And that's what was at the heart of this and that's what dealt the biggest blow to Peter Navarro here is the judge realized that last week, it said, you can't make that argument of executive privilege.
That's why this whole thing over the last two days moved --
COOPER: That's brutal. And they refer it to be like slavishly loyal to this guy to the former president and not have him come.
COLLINS: And he was asked today, why didn't you just get Trump to say that he did that? And he said, well, he's dealing with his own legal problems, noting all the indictments that Trump was facing, which I thought was a bit ironic.
COOPER: He is helping Rudy Giuliani out tonight with his legal problems, though.
COLLINS: But in an indirect way, I mean, he is helping him host a fundraiser, but he himself is not actually paying for Rudy Giuliani's legal fees.
Peter Navarro said they're in touch, but that's the extent of it that we know about.
COOPER: Elie, this IT worker is so interesting to me that he only really started to flip or change his story when he ditched his Trump paid for lawyer or Trump PAC paid for lawyer.
COLLINS: It was also Peter Navarro's lawyer, let me just say.
COOPER: Oh is that right? Oh, okay.
HONIG: Small world. Okay.
COOPER: Only Kaitlan will know that.
COLLINS: Let's just add in another wrinkle here.
COOPER: It is also Walt Nauta's attorney.
COLLINS: Yes.
HONIG: Yes. The guy is everywhere and there are conflicts of interest everywhere.
Yes, look this happens all the time where someone comes in and they lie to you the first time.
[20:05:11]
In an ideal world for prosecutors where witnesses would come in the first time, they tell you everything they did, they tell you everything they know, that'd be great. It doesn't happen in reality, all that often, especially where someone comes in, and they've got a lawyer with a conflict of interest.
Because people in that situation are naturally reluctant. Because A., they feel like I can't really say something about the guy who is paying for him. And B., if I do, I'm going to lose that lawyer, then I've got to go either hire my own lawyer, which is wildly expensive, way more expensive, I think then people realize, or you've got a public defender, I think that's what happened here with Employee 4 with Mr. Taveras, and then you flip.
So as a prosecutor, as long as you can explain that to a jury and I've done it, you'll be fine. Still a useful witness.
COOPER: I men, does it create credibility problems for the IT worker?
HONIG: A little bit. Yes, I mean, you'd rather have a clean slate, but juries, in my experience, understand that phenomenon. COOPER: And Walt Nauta, I mean, this IT worker is connected to Walt Nauta. He is probably the closest person they have who's flipped, right?
COLLINS: Yes. Definitely, the closest person they had. This is not someone who they have evidence of him speaking directly to Trump or having Trump issue a direct order, but these were conversations that these officials were having with Trump.
We know that we can see from -- they have, for example Carlos de Oliveira, they seized his phone, so they have his phone records. They know the calls that he made. We saw that in the superseding indictment to Trump, for example, he would have a call with Trump before then he would had a conversation about the boss wanting the footage deleted.
COOPER: And the superseding indictment really came about because of the testimony of this IT worker.
COLLINS: So the superseding indictment came out and we were making calls about where these other charges came from, and the only reason we're finding this out is because the judge also asked that. Why didn't you bring these charges earlier? Why are you bringing them now?
And essentially, it was because that attorney situation changed, Yuscil Taveras changed his testimony. This is the first time it's officially confirmed, but this was something that they had suspected in Trump world that this is where the information was coming from.
COOPER: So there is no evidence that he spoke, the IT worker spoke directly to Trump.
COLLINS: When it came to the orders that he wanted the surveillance footage deleted, that came from Carlos de Oliveira who said the boss wants this footage deleted.
HONIG: This is how you build a case. You pull a thread you never know you can unravel the whole sweater. Best case scenario, the IT worker gets you up to De Oliveira or Nauta, maybe they flip up from there.
Worst case scenario, he is a useful witness because he takes the inside and he tells you about the larger effort to delete the surveillance video.
COOPER: And in the Georgia case now, it seems that the Trump legal team as predicted is going to try to move it to federal court.
HONIG: Yeah, that's a no brainer. I think it's interesting that he's waiting though, because he has 30 days from arraignment to do it. Meadows of course is on the brink. Kaitlan and I have been saying every day. Any day now, we're going to get the decision on Meadows. I stand by that, any day now we will get that decision.
I think what Trump's trying to do here by going later, is perhaps ride Meadows' coattail into federal court, because if Meadows wins and gets into federal court, there's an argument, we don't know the answer to this, this has never come up before. But there's an argument that will be made that all 18 other co-defendants go over with him.
So it may make sense for Trump's lawyers to sit back, let Meadows do his thing. See what the judge's ruling is on Meadows and then you can sort of weave your argument to fit that ruling, so it is strategic.
COLLINS: But it is not just Trump doing that.
HONIG: Jeffrey Clark, too.
COLLINS: All of the co-defendants are essentially doing that here. John Eastman's attorney said it last night, that's also what they're doing. They're waiting to see what happens with Meadows before they all make a decision.
Even people like John Eastman, who they were not employed by the federal government, weren't getting a taxpayer funded paycheck like Mark Meadows was, they still will also likely try to make that argument they say.
COOPER: Kaitlan Collins, thanks. We'll see you at nine o'clock on "The Source." Elie Honig, thanks so much.
More on Rudy Giuliani's fundraiser tonight at Bedminster. We also have breaking news on his considerable financial troubles. Our Randi Kaye joins us now with that.
What have you learned -- Randi.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, our colleagues on CNN have learned some new reporting. A source familiar with Giuliani's finances telling CNN that he owes millions of dollars in legal fees. Certainly, this fundraiser at Bedminster tonight that Trump is putting on for him is certainly going to cut into that.
It is $100,000.00 a plate. It is expected to raise more than a million dollars. It is one of two fundraisers, Anderson that Trump is expected to sponsor for Giuliani. But as you know, there are a lot of other co- defendants and Trump does not seem to be holding out a helping hand to all of them.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I don't know a lot of those people.
KAYE (voice over): Former President Donald Trump distancing himself from his 18 co-defendants in the Georgia indictment. All are accused of trying to interfere with the state's 2020 presidential election results on behalf of Trump.
So Is Trump helping fund their defense and cover their mounting legal bills? In a word, no.
Listen to Trump's election lawyer, John Eastman, who pushed the false premise that then Vice President Mike Pence could block certification of the 2020 vote. REPORTER: Who is paying your legal fees?
JOHN EASTMAN, ATTORNEY: I am.
REPORTER: Have you talked to the former president at all?
EASTMAN: No.
KAYE (voice over): Eastman has turned to a faith-based crowdfunding site called GiveSendGo. He has raised more than $520,000.00.
And what about attorney and co-defendant, Jenna Ellis, who falsely claimed there was election fraud? A frustrated sounding Ellis posting this recently on X, formerly known as Twitter.
[20:10:10]
"Why isn't MAGA Inc. funding everyone's defense? I was reliably informed Trump isn't funding any of us who are indicted." Ellis who is now backing Florida Governor Ron DeSantis is also collecting donations on GiveSendGo, asking donors to help her fight back and stand for the truth. She has raised more than $197,000.00.
Cathy Latham, a fake elector from Georgia who is also accused of tampering with voting equipment is crowdfunding, too. Her appeal notes she's living on a teacher's pension. Latham has collected more than $18,000.00 in donations.
And Jeffrey Clark, the former Justice Department official, who was also charged in Fulton County, has raised more than $61,000.00 crowdfunding.
TRUMP: They don't have a lot of money and some of them have almost nothing.
KAYE (voice over): Whatever they did or didn't do, one of them spent nearly a week in the Fulton County jail because he couldn't afford a lawyer. Harrison Floyd, the leader of Black Voices for Trump is accused of threatening a Georgia election worker. Following the indictment Floyd surrendered without an attorney.
HARRISON FLOYD, LEADER OF BLACK VOICES FOR TRUMP: I cannot afford an attorney for something like this.
KAYE (voice over): His new court appointed attorney later negotiated a $100,000.00 bond and Floyd's release.
While Trump hasn't yet covered legal bills for his alleged co- conspirators, in Georgia, a source close to Trump tells CNN they may be able to access a recently created Legal Defense Fund.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: And what are the potential legal fees that could add up for Giuliani? KAYE: Well, Anderson, this Georgia indictment has certainly added to Giuliani's financial woes. He is already facing multiple defamation lawsuits related to the 2020 election. We've also learned that Giuliani and his attorney made a personal appeal to Donald Trump earlier this year to cover his legal costs. CNN has learned that Trump did pay one debt when it comes to those, but did not pay anything beyond that.
And Anderson, also CNN is learning from sources that Trump is really pushing back on this idea that he is the one responsible for paying Giuliani's legal fees. He's been arguing that he just didn't do anything wrong.
Of course, CNN has reached out to Team Trump and have not heard back -- Anderson.
COOPER: Randi Kaye, thanks so much.
Coming up next, can the 14th Amendment aimed at keeping former Confederates off the ballot do the same today to the former president? We will talk to the top election official in the state where the question is getting its first legal test.
And later, new polling on President Biden that is raising everything from concerns and serious alarm among Democrats.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:16:38]
COOPER: Tonight, the challenge to Donald Trump's election bid that emerged from constitutional law circles over the last few months landed yesterday in Colorado. The advocacy group, Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington filing suit there to keep him off the ballot under the 14th Amendment's ban on insurrectionists holding public office.
The question now, what will courts make of it, not to mention the public. Joining us is Colorado's top election official, secretary of State, Jena Griswold.
Secretary Griswold, so for the benefit of viewers, can you just explain the part of the 14th Amendment that argues this and that applies here?
JENA GRISWOLD, COLORADO SECRETARY OF STATE: Absolutely. And thanks for having me on, Anderson.
So a lawsuit was filed claiming that Donald Trump is disqualified from the Colorado ballot for inciting the insurrection and trying to steal the election in 2020 from the American people. Section 3 of the 14th Amendment says that if anybody swears to uphold the Constitution, they are disqualified from office if they subsequently engage in rebellion or insurrection, or provide aid or comfort to the enemies of the Constitution. So that is what the lawsuit is about. There are big constitutional questions attached to it, and I think it's necessary for a court to weigh in.
COOPER: I mean, as an election official, do you think the argument is valid? Do you think he did? I mean, there's arguments, all sorts of arguments against this, was he really involved in, you know, in secession? Did he give aid and comfort? What do you think?
GRISWOLD: I think there's a lot of big constitutional questions that there is uncertainty around. I do believe that Donald Trump incited the insurrection. I do believe he has been attacking American democracy in an attempt to steal American elections.
But there's a couple of things unclear about Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. So for example, if someone would be disqualified under the language of that provision, are they disqualified from running for office or just being seated in office? Who gets to make the decision? And in Colorado Law, how do we consider potential disqualification for ballot access?
So those are all really big questions, and I'm hopeful that the court will provide guidance to me as secretary of State, but to other secretaries across the nation.
COOPER: It's interesting because this argument has sort of gotten a lot of study among very conservative constitutional scholars who are backing this idea of him being banned based on this section of the 14th Amendment.
GRISWOLD: That's right. It's really interesting. And actually, the proponents of this lawsuit, the voters who brought it are Republican and unaffiliated voters.
And it just shows that this is really about upholding the law and upholding the Constitution. I do think and want to share with your viewers that this may not be resolved during the primary. We could see this question pop up again, if he wins the Republican nomination, it could pop up again if he wins the election for president, and it's not the only apparatus that will affect the upcoming election.
Americans have decided time and time again at the ballot box that they choose democracy over chaos. So Americans can have their voice heard in various times in the primary and general in this upcoming election and we'll see how everything else plays out.
COOPER: Do you think it's inevitable that this question will go to the Supreme Court or is it something that might be decided state by state?
[20:20:08]
GRISWOLD: Well, you know, it's a little early to really have a good inclination on that. But this is something that possibly could go to the Supreme Court. But these are, to an extent also state by state questions. There are big questions about the 14th Amendment, but then, there is specific state questions about how state law interacts with that provision.
So we may see different litigation play out across the state and in different iterations of the lawsuits.
COOPER: Poll after poll shows that even with everything that has come out about the former president, he is still, as you know, by far the GOP frontrunner for the nomination. Do you have concerns that a judicial ruling, if it went against the former president could be disenfranchising millions of voters of their choice in the 2024 election?
GRISWOLD: Well, I think that if the US Supreme Court were to make a ruling, to effectively disqualify the former president as a candidate that is a provision of candidacy. So no, I wouldn't think that that would be disenfranchising. There are certain characteristics that people have to hit to run for office.
So for example, Arnold Schwarzenegger, when he was governor of California, he couldn't run for US president even though a lot of people wanted him to because he wasn't a born citizen. Someone who is 25 can't run for US president.
So this is one of the requirements of office, of qualification of office, and what I will do and other secretaries, I hope will do will follow whatever decision that comes from the courts.
COOPER: I saw a recent interview with Politico, you said that there have been conversations among secretaries of state across the country, about how to deal with this issue, potential future lawsuits. Is there any consensus that you've been hearing?
GRISWOLD: Well, I think it's very public that there has been conversations there. This has been in the news now for a while. Lawsuits are starting to emerge, and I think a handful of secretaries of state have spoken publicly about it.
I think if there is a consensus, and I don't want to speak for all secretaries, what I think it would be is that court should weigh in.
There are very smart people on both sides of the aisle, conservatives and liberals, who think that there is something there with the 14th amendment, and there are people who disagree.
So this is a perfect case for judicial review, and I look forward and hope that this case gets resolved quickly.
COOPER: Jena Griswold, secretary of state of Colorado, thanks so much.
Next, new alarming poll numbers for President Biden's re-election campaign. Voters have a lot of concern about his ability to serve and a Republican candidate not named Donald Trump could possibly win in a potential matchup. We'll tell you who, the new polling, coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:26:51]
COOPER: Right now, President Biden is aboard Air Force One heading to the G20 Summit in New Delhi, India.
He leaves behind bleak new CNN polling that's alarming Democrats allowing for the margin of error. The president is tied and potential head-to-head matchups with most Republican candidates including former President Trump.
One exception, former South Carolina governor, Nikki Haley, he is losing to her by 49 to 43 percent. More troubling, perhaps, just 50 percent of Democrats now say he has the stamina and sharpness to serve effectively as president, that's down from 62 percent in March.
We want to talk about it now with former Biden White House communications director, Kate Bedingfield, also Nina Turner, who served as co-chair of Bernie Sanders' 2020 presidential campaign.
So Nina, I know you think the Democratic Party should be concerned about the polling, you said there's "unfortunately, a disconnect between those in the bubble and those in the streets." How does that bubble get popped?
NINA TURNER, SERVED AS CO-CHAIR OF BERNIE SANDERS' 2020 PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: Well, not by denying the pain that people are feeling, Anderson, that's part of the problem. I mean, it's the long-term challenges that people faced even before the pandemic, we know that the pandemic exacerbated.
Certainly, the Biden administration showed a willingness and showed that government could come in to provide some relief, but as soon as the pandemic kind of tamed a bit, that relief went away.
The first thing that comes to mind for me, is the Child Tax Credit, for example. So you can't boast about pulling children out of poverty only to allow the politics to push them back into the poverty.
So people who are going to rah-rah for President Biden, there are people who do that, but when you're talking to everyday people, Big Momma, Big Papa in the hoods where they're misunderstood, whether those are hoods are urban, rural or suburban, they are not feeling that things are getting better for them economically and that should be the measure, not whether or not the president's cheerleaders say that things are better, but it is whether or not the people in the streets say things are better.
COOPER: Kate, I mean, it is remarkable, not only is there no clear leader between the president and his predecessor in these polls, but he's also about even with the rest of the GOP field. We just mentioned, Nikki Haley would actually beat him in a theoretical matchup, and again, right now, according to the polling, and we're certainly a long way from 2024. Are you concerned?
KATE BEDINGFIELD, FORMER WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Well, I think, we've got to remember, this is one national poll over a year out from an election, a poll is a snapshot, it's a slice of information at a moment in time. There's a lot that isn't in this poll.
For example, we don't see anything about guns, about choice, about voting rights, things that we saw just a year ago motivated Democratic voters to come out to the polls and to vote.
So there are elements of this poll that provide information. I can tell you, you know, the Biden campaign and the Biden White House is not going to be rattled by this pulpit to the point that Nina was making, absolutely, the president is connected with and concerned with what people are feeling all across the country.
He is out talking about the ways in which what he's been able to get done on his economic agenda. He is making life better for people, but he also talks a lot about understanding their pain and talks about optimism for the future.
And I think that's the thing that the president and the Biden campaign will continue to really reinforce as they move forward is not just to talk about what they've done although they have done quite a bit to make life better and we see consumer confidence coming up, we see inflation coming down, we see wages coming up, you know, things that do make a real difference for people, but there are also going to continue to talk about what can get done moving forward.
[20:30:14]
COOPER: You actually don't believe anybody in the Biden campaign or the White House is concerned about a poll like this?
BEDINGFIELD: I can tell you from having worked very closely with Joe Biden and his team for long time, they're not going to be rattled by one poll. They're going to collect the aggregate information, of course, but they're not going to adjust strategy based on one poll, one national poll a year out from the election.
Ultimately, this is a race that's going to be decided, remember, not on the national level, but by the seven or so swing states that decided the election in 2020. And so, you know, one year out, a poll that tells you sort of nationally that the country is divided into, you know, into very hard partisan camps, that's not, you know, that's not shocking. That's where our politics has been for a while now.
So what the Biden campaign is going to do is keep talking about his record, talking about how they're making lives better for people.
COOPER: Yes.
BEDINGFIELD: And also critically, the other thing I would say is critically driving that contrast between Trump and what the Republicans are offering. Because at the end of the day --
COOPER: Right.
BEDINGFIELD: -- that's also how you move numbers in a campaign is by driving the contrast.
COOPER: Nina, the President's age obviously is a concern to a lot of voters out there. In your view, is it possible for him to overcome that concern? I mean, he's not going to be able to change his age.
NINA TURNER (D), FORMER OHIO STATE SENATOR: Yes, maybe. And that's by, you know, animating the material conditions, changing the material conditions of people. Where I disagree with my colleague, Kate, is on this, is that certainly we do understand that a poll is a snapshot in time. But what that snapshot is informative to the pressures that everyday people are feeling.
So just simply being out there on the stump talking about what I have done, what I am doing, is not enough if the people you are talking to are not feeling it. For example, in Hawaii, giving individuals $700 for the trauma that they are enduring is not enough. Not visiting East Palestine, Ohio, in my state is not enough.
And I do not believe that being anti-Trump is going to be enough to carry the Democrats in 2024. Although I do believe people should be concerned about neo-fascism, but neoliberalism impacts neo-fascism. And when you have people who have the type of attitude, it's one thing to cheerlead for your team. I get.
You know, I served as National Coast Chair for Senator Bernie Sanders. I served in the state, I get cheerleading for your team. But what we cannot do is forget how exhausted and exacerbated that everyday people are in. And I'm talking about housing. Utilities have gone up, food costs have gone up.
So although inflation has ticked down a little bit, it is not keeping pace with the anxiety that everyday people are feeling. So it's not going to be enough to run against the do-nothing Republicans who are doing nothing to solve these problems. You're going to have to use the power.
You cannot say you're like FDR --
COOPER: Yes.
TURNER: -- when you're not going to stand up and let the money interest know that you're coming for them on behalf of Big Mama and Big Papa.
COOPER: Kate?
BEDINGFIELD: Well --
COOPER: Go ahead, Kate.
BEDINGFIELD: I was just going to say, you know, you mentioned Senator Sanders, he was out in New Hampshire last week talking about what? Bidenomics. What the Biden economic agenda that's all about building from the bottom up and the middle out. It's about investing in working people in this country to make sure that they can get ahead. You know, he was out talking about what the Biden agenda has done for working people. So I certainly don't disagree that -- and certainly the President doesn't disagree. He is always thinking about how he can connect with where people are and make the case for the fact that we can get more done.
I don't think anybody is arguing that we -- that Democrats should only run against Trump. And I think what Joe Biden has --
TURNER: And Kate, I think part of the problem --
BEDINGFIELD: -- effectively done -- well wait, can I just finish really quickly? Can I finish really quickly? I think one of the things Joe Biden has done very effectively from the outset when he launched his campaign back in 2019, was to lay out the stakes that he believes that we're facing, the existential threat that he believes Donald Trump poses to the country and his very, very different path forward.
And I think he's been able to get a lot done in a very closely divided Washington. He has a good case to make to people. And we're going to see the contours of this campaign are going to be about. Are we -- are voters going to be for an agenda that's about helping working people get ahead? Are they going to be about for a Republican agenda that's about taking away choice, taking away freedom and not putting money in working people's pockets?
COOPER: Yes. I've got to leave you there. Kate Bedingfield, Nina Turner, I appreciate it. Thank you.
Still ahead, breaking news tonight. Reports of a sighting and people sheltering in place as authorities in Pennsylvania try to close in on the killer who's eluded them for more than a week.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:38:27]
COOPER: There's breaking news right now, a new siding in the manhunt for killer who broke out of eastern Pennsylvania prison more than a week ago. Police there have now zeroed in on a location people are sheltering in place right now.
CNN's Brian Todd joins us. So what's going on where you are, Brian?
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, we can tell you just a short time ago the Pennsylvania State Police confirmed to CNN that there has been another sighting of this fugitive, Danelo Cavalcante, this evening. The police would not say when or where the sighting occurred.
Here's what we can also tell you. According to a spokesperson for the facility known as Longwood Gardens, this is an area right behind me here. According to this person, they have said that the police are searching an area of Longwood Gardens, an area of interest. They have also moved guests out of the area.
And one point tonight, they did tell employees to shelter in place but they are searching an area of interest in Longwood Gardens that's just behind me in this area. You can see the law enforcement vehicles here behind me, Anderson. That's what we can tell you tonight, another sighting and they are searching an area right around here.
COOPER: Do you have any sense of how large an area that may be, you know? You probably don't. I know this is all happening right now.
TODD: Well, it's a large area. What they told us earlier was that the entire perimeter was about an 8 to 10 square mile area. But I can tell you, Anderson, in the last couple of hours, that perimeter has changed many, many times. There have been law enforcement vehicles, dozens upon dozens of them moving all around us at high speed sometimes with lights flashing and they have pushed us from one point to another.
This perimeter keeps changing. You can see that's one part of it right there. This perimeter keeps changing tonight.
[20:40:03]
My colleague Aaron Cooper observed law enforcement personnel with tactical vests on, camouflage gear and long guns. That's the first glimpse we've had of those types of personnel. All of this activity coming after a sighting at about noon today telling us that this fugitive may be moving around in a fairly tight area.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TODD (voice-over): Tonight, another reported sighting as the manhunt for convicted murderer Danelo Cavalcante enters its second week.
LT. COL. GEORGE BIVENS, DEPUTY COMMISSIONER OF OPERATIONS, PENNSYLVANIA STATE POLICE: We had a possible sighting of Cavalcante by a person in the vicinity of Longwood Gardens.
TODD (voice-over): This sighting officials say was not far from where he was seen on a trail camera on Monday night. A law enforcement official tells CNN someone walked up to police and reported seeing Cavalcante around noon today. Police searched the area inside their perimeter of 8 to 10 square miles, asked why they couldn't squeeze in the area to grab him.
BIVENS: Well, it's not just a perfect open piece of land that you can just march through. You've got businesses, residences, highways, hills, valleys, wooded areas that can't be pushed through.
TODD (voice-over): Cavalcante has been on the run since August 31, the week after he was sentenced to life in prison for murdering his girlfriend. The victim's family in fear for their lives.
DEB RYAN, CHESTER COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: They do have protection and they are terrified. They're -- they haven't left their home. They're barricaded inside and very concerned about their safety. We do have police detail around them 24 hours a day. But I know they're very, very worried.
This is an outrage. This should have never happened. You know that I was the prosecutor who was assigned to this case and I helped convict this man and he was sentenced to life with, you know, without parole. We're all upset.
TODD (voice-over): This stunning surveillance video shows the escape, the 34-year-old crab walking up the side of a wall in an outdoor exercise area of the prison. Investigators say he pushed through razor wire, ran across a roof, scaled another fence and got through more razor wire.
Now on the run. He's been seen several times in the surrounding area and police have found his footprints.
NINA LYMAN, HOME SEARCHED TWICE IN PA MANHUNT: Saturday evening, we heard some very strange things in the woods, saw some things on our cameras and we did alert police.
TODD (voice-over): Nina and Charlie Lyman live less than 2 miles from the prison on a 65 acre farm. They believe Cavalcante may have been on their property which police have searched twice.
LYMAN: We do have several nooks and crannies. We have three barns, hay lofts, horse trailers, there are three houses on the property. So we're little -- we're taking precautions.
TODD (voice-over): Cavalcante has also been recorded at least twice on surveillance video.
(on-camera): The more days that go by without them catching him, does he get more dangerous?
J.J. KLAVER, FMR. FBI SUPERVISORY SPECIAL AGENT, PHILADELPHIA FIELD OFFICE: Well he does. He gets more dangerous because he gets more desperate. And he's probably looking to obtain a weapon. He's going to need to get water and food and more clothes and, you know, he's looking for a vehicle.
And all of those things potentially put him in contact with the public, with citizens in their homes, cars, outside. And that's where the real danger comes in.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TODD: We've been pressing law enforcement officials every step of the way on whether Danelo Cavalcante has obtained a weapon or not. The latest word we got a short time ago is, so far, they do not have any any indication that he has obtained a weapon now.
As for whether he has left any traces of himself behind anywhere like food, clothing or anything else like that, Lieutenant Colonel George Bivens of the Pennsylvania State Police told me, so far they have found no physical traces of this man. But things are very fluid tonight, Anderson.
COOPER: Yes. It sounds like it. Brian Todd, thank you. Now to Turkey where hundreds of rescuers are rushing to reach an American man who's trapped inside a cave. The Turkish Caving Federation is warning it's a complex operation, could take days. CNN's Sam Kiley has more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SAM KILEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Painstaking and dangerous. The start of a desperate rescue of an American cave has stuck at least 15 hours crawl into the underground bowels of southern Turkey. Taken ill with intestinal bleeding, Mark Dickey's already had six units of blood sent to him nearly 3,500 feet down.
Turkish officials say that saving him could take days. A rescue caver himself, Dickey must know the challenges of getting to the surface.
GRETCHEN BAKER, NATIONAL COORDINATOR, NATIONAL CAVE RESCUE COMMISSION: It is complete dark in the cave except for whatever lights that people bring in. It's also a very cold cave. It's 4 to 6 degrees Celsius. So that means that you have to work hard to stay warm.
KILEY (voice-over): He's at base camp hope. Although able to walk for now, he'll need to be helped or stretchered through waypoints that speak for themselves through Desperado and burrowing through to Mole tested beyond the limits and into the light.
BAKER: There's a lot of water in this cave. A lot of it's dripping, but some of it is in pools that they have to go through. Some of it is just spraying off rock walls, and so the rescuers are getting fairly wet and Mark will get pretty wet also.
KILEY (voice-over): 150 people from around the world are working to get Dickey out the cave to where his internal bleeding can be treated. Until then, his life hangs in the balance.
Sam Kiley, CNN, London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[20:45:09]
COOPER: We'll continue to follow that as well.
Still ahead, another major hurricane brewing. This one is growing stronger and faster than most. Hurricane Lee going from Category 2 to Category 4 in just a matter of a few hours.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Well, sign says tomorrow marks 20 years this program has been on the air. It is hard to believe and it's certainly an honor. This week, we thought we'd bring you some of the remarkable moments that I and the 360 team have had the privilege to witness over the years from around the world.
Tonight, we want to take you back to Haiti after the devastating earthquake that hit the country on January 12 of 2010. We were some of the first international journalists on the ground in Puerto Prince the morning after the quake, spent more than a month reporting there.
On our third day, we came across an attempt to rescue a child believed to be trapped underneath rubble. We want to show you the whole report from what happened.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER (voice-over): Minushka Polnis (ph) believes her daughter, Leika (ph), is alive, trapped in the rubble of this daycare center.
[20:50:02]
(on-camera): Have you heard your daughter?
(voice-over): Yes, she tells us. She heard her 10-year-old daughter just this morning. She's been trying to get someone to go through the building for four days.
A search and rescue team from the LA County Fire Department has borrowed our interpreter, Vlad Dutier (ph), to call out for her daughter in French.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We got a help.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You bring the dog.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wells from Harris. We got somebody. We got some -- quiet! We hear somebody.
COOPER (voice-over): Believing they've heard a faint cry, the firefighters insert a listening device into the rubble. Vlad is told to tell the victim to tap three times on whatever is nearby.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Speaking Foreign Language)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's your location?
COOPER (on camera): They've heard a very faint tapping sound. They think she's alive, but there's so much noise around. It's just very hard to tell. So now they're bringing in one of the dogs to see if the dog will pick up a scent.
(voice-over): Jasmin Seguar's (ph) dog is named Maverick, specially trained to pick up the smell of a living human trapped in debris.
(on camera): What happened with the dog?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Showing some interest, but not a strong alert of the sign of live human scent. He wasn't showing -- he isn't giving that to us. COOPER (voice-over): It is possible for a living victim to be so deeply buried, the dog can't smell them, so the team decides to go further in.
(on camera): What they're doing right now is painstakingly difficult and dangerous. It's like moving around pieces of a jigsaw puzzle but a jigsaw puzzle that can fall on top of you and kill you or crush the person you're trying to save. They have to be very careful about what blocks they remove and in what order they remove them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're always thinking aftershocks. I mean, that's our first concern. Second is, is the structure still intact?
COOPER (voice-over): Unsure exactly which direction to dig, they once again try to get the little girl to tap.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tell her to say something.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Speaking Foreign Language)
COOPER (voice-over): Again, it seems they get a tapping response. A crowd gathers. So do others with pictures of their loved ones they believe may also be trapped inside. Another dog is brought in, a border collie named Hunter.
Despite Minushka's (ph) silent prayers, Hunter finds nothing.
(on camera): They've now been at this for about three hours. The last dog that they brought in didn't get any hits.
(voice-over): But around the other side of the building, two firefighters have crawled into another small hole and are convinced that they've just heard something.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What'd you hear? What'd you hear?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Definitely distinct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Distinct tapping?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
COOPER (on-camera): This is the best possible news. They've just gotten a tap. This little girl, or at least somebody, is alive down there. It's incredible.
What goes through your mind when you hear that sound after working on this for so many hours?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That it's time to go to work. It's time to go to work and move to see if we can find her, do our job.
COOPER (on-camera): The clock is ticking.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The clock is ticking.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bolt cutter and snips.
COOPER (voice-over): After seven hours on site, however, they stop hearing tapping. A third dog is brought and heard (ph) nothing alive (ph).
(on camera): Two hours ago or so, when you guys heard distinctive tapping --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
COOPER (on-camera): -- is it possible that was just ambient noise?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It very well could have been.
COOPER (on-camera): The other possibility is that a person expires, that they tap at one point and then they're no longer able to.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is true. This -- we're four days into it without food or water, and we're talking about possibly a 10-year-old girl. And there's only -- every human has their limits.
COOPER (voice-over): Their last hope is to lower several microphones in different parts of the building.
(on-camera): They've now placed four microphones in separate locations on the ground floor, in the rubble. This is a critical moment. If they hear something, they'll continue working. If they don't get any response, they're going to stop the operation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Speaking Foreign Language)
COOPER (voice-over): In the movies, this is when a small sound would be heard. A faint tap, a child's cry. But this is Haiti, and this is real. And despite their best hopes, they hear no sound of life.
(voice-over): They break the news to Manushka and the others. The search is over, they tell them there's no one left alive.
[20:55:11]
Manushka asks for one more dog search. Her wish is granted. It doesn't take long.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thanks, Jess.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, thanks.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thanks, Caddy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thanks, Caddy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Say, days, days and so basically saying there's no hope.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct. And at this location, there's no one alive there. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
COOPER: (voice-over): After four days of waiting, crying and hoping, trying to get anyone to come to her aid, Manushka refuses to believe her daughter and her classmates are gone. The children aren't dead, she says. They might be in a coma, but they're alive. I believe they're still alive.
Come by tomorrow and check for us, won't you, please? The kids are alive. They aren't dead. I'll wait for you tomorrow.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Slow down.
COOPER (voice-over): Tomorrow, the team will not come back here. There are other buildings to check. Their families still waiting. Searches go on, but on this site, they're done.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Yes. I will never forget the desperation of that mom Manushka. We should point out also Vlad Dutier, who was our translator at that time, is now an anchor and a correspondent over at CBS News.
Just ahead, the latest on Hurricane Lee, now Category 4 and still growing.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Very dangerous storm has been growing rapidly out in the Atlantic. In the span of just 12 hours, Hurricane Lee has gone from a Category 1 hurricane to Category 4. It's expected to strengthen further to Cat 5 as early as tomorrow morning.
Reach peak intensity over the weekend. The question is, will it hit the U.S. Mainland? Still unknown at this point. However, dangerous surf and rip currents could begin affecting the east coast by Sunday.
That's it for us. The news continue. I'll see you tomorrow. "THE SOURCE" with Kaitlan Collins starts now.
