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Amanpour
Hong Kong Protests; Is There Light at the End for Libya?; Imagine a World
Aired September 30, 2014 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: a city still at a standstill, Hong Kong protesters ignore the order to go home and
prepare to launch the next phase of their campaign. I speak to the former chief secretary of the Hong Kong government, Anson Chan.
Plus: is this the man to save Libya?
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ABDELHAKIM BELHADJ, LIBYAN POLITICIAN AND MILITARY LEADER (through translator): I was physically and psychologically tortured with my wife.
But now we are looking into the future now, the future for Libya.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR (voice-over): Abdelhakim Belhadj tells me how he'll forget the past and try to unite his broken country.
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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.
The sun hasn't risen in Hong Kong yet, but demonstrators are digging in for a major day ahead. Chinese National Day, a day these protesters say
they will claim for democracy. With the barricades set up and streets blocked off, these masses were undaunted by the flash monsoon that passed
overhead this evening. Crowds shielded themselves with umbrellas, now almost a symbol of the revolution after they were used to protect against
police tear gas this weekend.
The pressure may be mounting but Beijing is not budging as Hong Kong's leader, Leung Chun-ying warned ominously.
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LEUNG CHUN-YING, HONG KONG CHIEF EXECUTIVE (through translator): China will not compromise, even if some people threaten them illegally.
AMANPOUR (voice-over): He said the protest must stop immediately and he refused the protesters' demand to step down himself.
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AMANPOUR: Their main goal, they say, is dialogue to get Beijing to scrap its decision to preselect candidates for Hong Kong's first direct
elections in 2017. And one who knows first-hand the excruciating balancing act between Hong Kong and the mother ship, China, is the city's former
chief secretary, Anson Chan, and she joins me now live on set.
Welcome to the program.
ANSON CHAN, FORMER CHIEF SECRETARY, HONG KONG: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: First and foremost, the chief executive of Hong Kong just said no way Beijing is not budging and you must all go home. Is there any
hope that Beijing will budge?
I don't suppose realistically it will budge anytime soon. But both the chief executive and Beijing have got to show some signs that they are
listening to the pleas from the people of Hong Kong. It's not only just about giving us a genuine choice in electing the chief executive in 2017,
at the end of the day, what most people in Hong Kong are concerned about is whether we can preserve our core values and our lifestyle, both of which
are guaranteed not only in the joint declaration but in our many constitutions of basic law.
AMANPOUR: So does the basic law actually state that when you do have direct elections, you could have universal suffrage?
Did it ever suggest that there would be preselection of candidates?
CHAN: No preselection. In fact the basic law in black-and-white says universal suffrage means the right not only to vote but the right of every
permanent Hong Kong resident to vote. It says that the nominating committee for the election of the chief executive have to be broadly
representative and the nomination process has to be democratic.
AMANPOUR: You were chief secretary during the last days of the empire, before the handover, from '92 to '97.
Describe to me how Hong Kong lived that one country, two systems back then and now.
Has there been a difference in the last several years?
CHAN: Well, in the four years, almost four years that I remained as chief secretary after the handover, I can put my hand to my heart and said
there was absolutely no interference from Beijing. They genuinely honored their promises under the joint declaration and the basic law. And it was
Hong Kong people ruling Hong Kong.
But I'm afraid, in the years following, particularly in the last seven or eight years and more particularly since Mr. CY Leung took up the post of
the chief executive, I'm afraid we're seeing a steady chipping away at two systems, erosion of our core values, independence of the judiciary and the
rights and freedoms that we enjoy under the basic law.
AMANPOUR: Now many say that actually the president of China, Xi Jinping, has started to impose this kind of, you know, I'm in charge here
and there. Many say why would they want to see Hong Kong disrupted; why would China not just let Hong Kong get on with being the productive
economic hub that it is.
Is Hong Kong still as important, do you think?
CHAN: I think it is as important. It may not be realized by some of the headliners in Beijing. And you're right in that I think part of the
difficulties we're experiencing in Hong Kong reflect a lack of confidence on the part of Beijing leaders because, quite frankly, they have a number
of very formidable challenges on their plate. And the last thing they want to risk is any suggestion of instability and a loss of control over Hong
Kong.
But there are also moderate voices in Beijing who realize the role that Hong Kong plays not only in sustainable economic growth in the
mainland, but also helping our country modernize and come into the 21st century.
AMANPOUR: Well, maybe China thinks that it's such a big economic powerhouse that people don't need Hong Kong anymore.
CHAN: Yes, and also the fact that the rest of the world is prepared to trade and invest in China almost on any terms. I'm afraid it gives
encouragement to China to believe that they will be allowed to get away even walking away from their commitments under the joint declaration and
the basic law.
AMANPOUR: So how do you think this is going to proceed?
Do the students have any hope or the mass demonstrators have any hope of reopening a conversation or of getting CY Leung to step down?
He says he won't, but that's their aim.
CHAN: Well, I think the first thing to point out is the students are not going to remove themselves from the street unless and until there is
some indication of sincerity and a willingness to talk about universal suffrage for the election in 2017.
We are still hoping that both the chief executive and Beijing will hear the people's plea and will be prepared to sit down at the negotiating
table and look at the scope and maneuver.
AMANPOUR: The deputy prime minister here in the U.K. says that he will summon the Chinese ambassador in to express his dismay and alarm at
what's going on on the streets. And you know, everybody's calling for the democratic bull to be allowed to proceed down the field, so to speak, even
U.N. secretary-general has said that.
Will that make any impression on Beijing?
And how should one be dealing with Beijing?
CHAN: I think Beijing does care about its international image. Hong Kong has been off the world map for quite a long while, and we're glad that
it's now back on the world map, although we would not wish to see what is happening in Hong Kong right now.
But it's better that the rest of the world realizes what is happening in Hong Kong, that it looks at China's commitment to international
obligations in the treatment that they're meting out to Hong Kong people.
AMANPOUR: Well, you've written that you're appalled and heartbroken by the sight of what you --
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: -- Star Wars, police with their gas masks on. And these have been pretty terrifying images, actually.
What do you think will happen next?
Is there going to be a heavy-handed crackdown? You can see that the police are pulled back. Beijing seems to be letting the Hong Kong
government try to take care of it themselves.
CHAN: I think the government realizes that rolling out anti-riot policemen wasn't the way to deal with the situation. The police have now
disappeared, almost disappeared from the streets of Hong Kong. But CY has to realize he has to offer something to the people of Hong Kong, to
persuade people to stop the protest and to begin to really seriously talk.
AMANPOUR: Well, you are sort of in that kind of position, betwixt and between.
How does CY do this without, you know, angering the masters in Beijing?
CHAN: I think CY needs to persuade Beijing that Beijing needs to deliver on its promise to the people of Hong Kong, that if Hong Kong people
does not have genuine one man, one vote, Hong Kong will become increasingly ungovernable. And this will reflect very badly, not just on CY and his
team, but on Beijing as a whole.
AMANPOUR: And talk to me about the core of the protesters. They're young; they're students. They have all sorts of visions and dreams for the
future.
CHAN: I think the younger generation is the hope for Hong Kong. Yes, they have ideals. They have the courage of their convictions. They are
fighting for their future. They want to maintain their core values and our lifestyle. And they're prepared to make sacrifices. I have great
admiration for the younger generation and I see in them our future political leaders.
AMANPOUR: Finally, as we just go to a break, did you ever think Beijing would renege on its promises under the --
(CROSSTALK)
CHAN: I certainly did not. Otherwise, I would not have put my whole heart and soul into helping to sell the joint declaration and the basic law
at the point of a handover.
AMANPOUR: Anson Chan, former chief secretary of Hong Kong, thank you so much for joining us tonight.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And while demands for democracy continue to echo from Hong Kong, the Chinese government is piling on the patriotism at home with a
glut of national holidays. We've already told you that it's National Day, but the flowers are still fresh from the day before's brand new holiday,
Martyrs Day, which commemorates Chinese heroes who died in battle against foreign enemies.
Now once place those heroes don't do didn't do battle was in Libya, when China sat out NATO's no-fly zone that helped topple the regime of
Moammar Gadhafi. Three years later, that state is giving the word "failed" a bad name. One former militia leader says he's the answer. We'll ask him
how when we come back.
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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. Now if you thought ISIS was complicated, don't even think about trying to understand what's happening
in Libya right now.
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AMANPOUR (voice-over): Militias have literally run the country since the fall of Gadhafi. Last month, Islamists seized control of the capital,
Tripoli, and forced the internationally recognized parliament to flee to Tobruk 1,000 miles away.
U.N.-brokered talks between the two sides got underway yesterday, but with so many different players and so many weapons, it's difficult to see a
path out of this chaos.
One former militia leader is putting himself forward as the new national conciliator. Abdelhakim Belhadj has swapped his battle fatigues
for a suit. And he's restyled himself as a politician. He is also controversial, a former jihadi against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan
a decade ago he says the U.S. and British governments abducted him in Thailand and handed him over to Gadhafi, where he was thrown in jail and
systematically tortured.
He joined me earlier from Johannesburg, South Africa, where as leader of the conservative al-Watan Party, he is what -- he is the man who many
say will be key to making peace in Libya.
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AMANPOUR: Abdelhakim Belhadj, welcome to the program.
BELHADJ (through translator): You are welcome.
AMANPOUR: I need to ask you first and foremost, Libya has become a safe haven for terrorism.
What makes you believe that you are the man to bring Libya back together, to unite it in a proper democratic, peaceful future?
BELHADJ (through translator): We have to unite our efforts, all Libyans, all patriotic Libyans, regardless of their affiliations,
regardless of their ideologies. We have to unite around one goal, which is a democratic state, and to build relationships with other countries based
on mutual trust and mutual respect.
The growth of terrorism now is something that we oppose strongly and we will make every effort to deal with it in a way that is in line with the
vision of the majority of Libyans.
And here I'd like to indicate an important factor.
First, the weapons that are easy to get your hands on by everybody, that's something that the old regime did as it was collapsing. It opened
the weapons warehouses and allowed people to take weapons.
The second thing is the weakness of the one government after another since the revolution. We haven't seen any comprehensive plan to collect
those weapons or to organize the armed people and bring them back to be part of the military institutions in the country.
We have to involve these people and make them part of the resolution, not part of the problem.
AMANPOUR: Why do you think you can do that when everybody else has failed so far?
BELHADJ (through translator): We have a strong will and we have to turn that will into ability. And if we can have some positive
communication with the militias, and if we can have a plan to bring them to be part of the institutions of the country, we will be able to build a
strong military and a strong police force.
AMANPOUR: There's obviously two sets of governments. There's one that's in exile in Tobruk and then there's the one you back, which is in
Tripoli.
So there are competing power centers.
Do you support the peace talks, the U.N.-brokered talks, that are taking place right now?
BELHADJ (through translator): Most certainly. I support the existence of one strong central government that runs Libya. What we have
witnessed is a parliament that came to existence in an unconstitutional fashion and that issued some constitutional declarations outside the
control of the central government in a city that's 1,500 kilometers away from the capital.
And that's what created that split within the legislative body, the parliament, and that what -- that's what has eventually pushed the
revolutionaries to move forward, not to seize power, but to restore order.
AMANPOUR: The party, the revolutionaries in charge of Libya right now, are Islamists. And there are many, many people in the United States,
in your region, who do not want to see Islamists take power. They say, look at what's been happening wherever, in Egypt, in Iraq. Look at ISIS.
Surely you understand the complications of having an Islamist militia pose as a government.
BELHADJ (through translator): First of all, let me correct one thing: the revolutionaries who move now in more than 90 percent of the Libyan land
are not Islamists. They do not possess an Islamic ideology and they cannot be described as such.
Regarding the events that we see in many countries such as Syria and Iraq and those violations that we have been seeing and those acts that are
committed in the name of religion, I'd like to assure you that we stand against terrorism and we will be always against the terrorism.
AMANPOUR: Mr. Belhadj, let us go back to about 10 years ago. You had been in Afghanistan; you were fighting against the Soviets. Then you left.
At a certain time, you say you were arrested in Thailand and, between the U.K. and the CIA, you were rendered; you were tortured.
Tell me what happened. Give me the precise details.
BELHADJ (through translator): Yes, I was abducted by the CIA and unfortunately I was -- I was handed over, with my pregnant wife back then,
to a regime which, the side that turned me in, the CIA, knew very well that that regime did not respect human rights. I was physically and
psychologically tortured with my wife.
But now we are -- we are looking into the future now, the future for Libya, as we -- I'm speaking to you now, I believe that the past is for
dead and I would like also to tell you that the torture that I suffered, the abduction, the physical and psychological torture that I suffered,
despite all this, I never -- I never harbored any revenge thoughts in my heart. I never thought about revenge.
I'm still pro-justice and regarding what happened to me, that should be dealt with in court.
AMANPOUR: Let us go back a little bit further. When you were in Afghanistan, in the late 1990s, it is said that you developed close ties to
Al Qaeda and also to the Taliban.
BELHADJ (through translator): I never had any ties to Al Qaeda as an organization or even as an ideology. We had different opinions from Al
Qaeda. This is documented and this is well known.
Even those who arrested me in Thailand did not send me to the United States because I was not wanted by the American legal system. They turned
me to -- into the former Gadhafi regime.
AMANPOUR: Abdelhakim Belhadj, thank you very much indeed for joining me this evening.
BELHADJ (through translator): Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And the CIA declined our request to comment on Belhadj's allegation that it abducted him in Thailand.
And while Libya struggles to become more than a snarl of rival factions, another nation that's been torn apart by years of war and
terrorism has taken strides towards security and self-determination. Afghanistan delivered a one-two punch to the naysayers this week, first
swearing in its new president on Monday, Ashraf Ghani, who's pledged to share power with rival candidate, Abdullah Abdullah.
That unprecedented democratic transfer of power was followed today by the U.S. and Afghanistan at last signing the security agreement that will
allow U.S. and NATO troops to stay there beyond the December deadline for withdrawal, hoping to prevent another Iraq, President Barack Obama. called
this agreement a historic day.
And after a break, imagine if agreements between nations were lost in translation. It's a matter of interpretation when we come back.
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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, whether it be in Afghanistan, Libya, China or anyplace where cultures clash and language is a barrier, imagine a
world where peace, justice and understanding can be lost in translation. That modern-day Tower of Babel would be our reality, were it not for the
skill and dedication of interpreters and translators. For over 60 years, those voices in the ear of world leaders have been celebrated on September
30th, International Translation Day, which by no coincidence is also the feast day of St. Jerome, the 4th century Catholic scholar who translated
the Hebrew Bible into Latin. Of course, not all translators have been saints. Back in 1938, Adolf Hitler's personal interpreter was at his side
when he signed the infamous Munich Agreement with the British prime minister Neville Chamberlain, which promised peace in our time. Seven
years and millions of lives later, Hitler was dead but his minions stood trial in Nuremberg, Germany, where a simultaneous interpretation system
built by IBM was used for the very first time, allowing interpreters in four languages to help bring Nazi war criminals to justice.
And just this week translators and interpreters were at work in The Hague, as prosecutors there demanded life imprisonment for the former
Bosnian Serb leader Radovan Karadzic, charged with acts of genocide, including at the Srebrenica massacre that killed over 100,000 people in all
during the Bosnian War. A verdict in several languages will be read out next year.
And that's it for our program tonight. Remember you can always contact us at our website, amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and
Twitter. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.
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