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At This Hour

Explosions Heard, Seen as Gaza Cease-Fire Ends; Another U.N. School in Gaza Hit; Wolf Blitzer Goes Inside Hamas Tunnel; Israel and Hamas Can't Agree

Aired July 30, 2014 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: Israel meanwhile working to take out an elaborate network of tunnels, our Wolf Blitzer goes inside one such tunnel. We'll take you there.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: The Ebola virus kills its first American. A man gets on a plane and dies five days later. So what happened, and is this deadly outbreak spreading toward the United States?

Hello, everyone. Great to see you today. I'm John Berman.

PEREIRA: And I'm Michaela Pereira. It's 11:00 a.m. in the East, 8:00 a.m. out West, those stories and much more, right now, @ THIS HOUR.

BERMAN: So this is supposed to be or was supposed to be the final hour of Israel's temporary cease-fire in Gaza, but as you just heard, we are hearing explosions.

The Israeli military authorized what it called a humanitarian window set to last four hours. They said it does not apply to areas where their soldiers have been operating.

The announcement came on the heels of the deaths of 19 people when a shell hit a U.N. school where Palestinian families had taken refuge.

PEREIRA: Some 1,283 people in Gaza are now confirmed dead. Deaths on the Israeli side stands at 56.

The Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev joins us from Jerusalem. Mr. Regev, it's a pleasure to have you with us here. We want to talk about this humanitarian window.

We understand that there was supposed to be an hour left in this window of opportunity to sort of get some people out, some supplies in. Already we've witnessed and her and seen several explosions just in the past few minutes. It sounds as though this cease-fire is over.

MARK REGEV, ISRAELI GOVERNMENT SPOKESMAN: Well, the truth is we announced earlier today a humanitarian cease-fire. We did that in coordination with the United Nations at their request.

The trouble is Hamas rejected it and then continued to shoot, and a cease-fire means not just Israel's cease-fire. A cease-fire means that Hamas must cease-fire too, and if rockets continue to be shot at our cities and so forth, of course, that means the cease-fire has become null and void, and so we have restarted operations/

But the reason that we didn't last the full four hours was Hamas who said openly and publicly, we reject this cease-fire. It's a pity. We would have preferred it to be the full four hours.

BERMAN: Mr. Regev, I want to ask you about an incident that's happened in the last 24 hours, a U.N. school hit. The Palestinians, the United Nations say it was from Israeli troops. It was Israeli munitions that hit this. As we said before, 19 people are dead, including children.

Does Israel need to be doing more to protect children and civilians in Gaza?

REGEV: This incident is a tragedy, and it's shocking. No one wants to see innocent civilians caught in the crossfire between us and Hamas. Let me be clear about that. And we are making a maximum effort to be as targeted as is possible in a difficult combat environment.

But the question that has to be asked is why has a U.N. facility been turn into a combat zone, and the answer is clear. Hamas has had a deliberate policy of abusing U.N. facilities, not that Mark Regev says so. I can be seen in New York and all the delegates at United Nations have to hear this.

You have a consistent pattern of behavior by Hamas to abuse U.N. neutrality, to abuse U.N. humanitarian work, and we've seen three documented cases where Hamas has stored rockets at U.N facilities, rockets that are ultimately shot at Israel.

On Saturday, we had an Israeli soldier who was shot dead by fire that came from or immediately adjacent to a U.N. facility, meaning the terrorists, the Hamas operative, was using that facility, that U.N. facility, as a human shield.

So if there is fighting going on and around U.N. facilities, if our forces were involved in a firefight, it's because Hamas has decided that it's open season on the U.N.

BERMAN: We will press a Palestinian official later in this show about these weapons that have been found by U.N. officials at their compounds, but the fact remains, sir, that you have warned Gaza civilians, people in Gaza, to leave their homes, to find safety.

And one of places they find safety is at these U.N. facilities, so again, can you do more to make sure these facilities remain safe havens for these people?

REGEV: Well, first of all, we don't target civilians and we don't target U.N. facilities. Let me be very clear about that.

PEREIRA: So then are you just a bad shot? Is the Israeli military just a bad shot because this has happened numerous times, sir?

REGEV: First of all, it hasn't numerous times, and it's not clear what happened today. Now, obviously, in a difficult combat situation, where people are shooting at you -- and we know there was a firefight in the immediate area of the facility -- we don't know if it was our munitions, we don't know if it was Palestinian munitions that caused this tragedy.

Yesterday, you had a Palestinian rocket that was fired at Israel, fell short, and landed in a hospital. And of course all Hamas blamed Israel for another atrocity until we released documentary evidence that showed that it was a Hamas rocket. We can't rule out the fact that it was also Palestinian fire here.

But of course there are people in Gaza that can control the message, because as you know there's no freedom of speech in Gaza. Blame Israel, blame Israel. We don't know what happened this morning at the school. We're looking into it. I can say unequivocally. We do not target civilians.

PEREIRA: Sir, so, Chile, Peru, Brazil, Ecuador, they've all pulled their ambassadors out of Tel Aviv, in protest of the offensive.

What is your thought, what is your reaction to this reaction from around the globe?

REGEV: I think it's incomprehensible. You have Israel, a democratic country, a peaceful country, a country that's acting to protect its citizens.

On the other side, you have a brutal terrorist organization, Hamas, which is committed to the destruction of Israel, that says every Israeli civilian is a legitimate target in its war of terror, that says the only solution to the conflict is the elimination of my country, violent jihad, and they are shooting rockets at the Israeli civilian population, and at the same time they are adopting tactic, turning Gaza citizens into human shields, deliberately endangering them, causing many, many unnecessary deaths.

It's clear here. The responsibility for this conflict, the responsibility for the ongoing tragedy falls clearly on Hamas.

BERMAN: Do you anticipate offering another temporary cease-fire any time within the next day? Do you think this will expire without any extension in 50 minutes from now?

REGEV: Can I be clear? Since this conflict has started, we first of all agreed to a total and complete cease-fire, when two weeks ago we already accepted the Egyptian initiative for a comprehensive cease- fire for a total and complete cease-fire, a proposal that was supported by Egypt of course, by the United Nations, by the Arab League, by the United States. It's Hamas has rejected that.

And in the interim, we have agreed to a whole host of temporary cease- fires for humanitarian purposes, cease-fires proposed by the United Nations or by the Red Cross. We've accepted those as we did today.

And as we saw today in every case, either Hamas violates or rejects these humanitarian cease-fires. So Israel will continue to be willing for humanitarian cease-fires but we have to see what Hamas is willing, because up until now, they are quite willing to see the people of Gaza suffer on the agenda of their very radical extreme agenda.

BERMAN: You are correct, sir. The rockets did fly out of Gaza during this four-hour cease-fire.

Sir, thank you so much for being with us. Mark Regev, Israeli spokesman, joining us from Israel today, we really appreciate your time.

Later this hour, as we said, we're going to the Palestinian point of view on this crisis. We will ask about these missiles that were found at a U.N. facility.

Also, Israel wants Hamas tunnels destroyed, these tunnels, thirty-plus tunnels destroyed. We will ask what it will take to get rid of them.

PEREIRA: We're going to ask the founder of the Palestinian national initiative Mustafa Bargudi (ph). He joins us in a few moments are from now.

So we've mentioned several explosions in Gaza in just the past few minutes, already putting at risk this temporary cease-fire. Our John Vause was live on the air when it began. I want you to talk a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Let's start with that unilateral -- it's over, as you can tell.

What we have right now is smoke which is coming from an earlier air strike in downtown Gaza City. That's a gas station, a petro station, which was hit according to Palestinian officials.

What that other target was hit, at this point we don't know, but clearly that humanitarian window is now closed. It was meant to be open for another hour and a half.

But obviously the Israelis said it did come with a provision that if Hamas continued to fire those rockets, if Israeli troops were in fact endangered in any way, then they would respond.

As you can tell, they are now responding to that -- to those Hamas rockets, which to be fair have continued to fire from Gaza.

Just over here, this building just over here, which has just been hit ...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Right now, our team in Gaza is taking cover. As soon as they are safe, we'll go back there for a live report.

But as you can see, this conflict certainly continues. During this four-hour cease-fire, rockets continue to fly out of Gaza. Now we are seeing the Israeli response.

PEREIRA: Frustration is there. The hope is these cease-fires, even temporary -- four hours, six hours, eight hours -- would lead to a longer discussion about a more longer lasting one.

But even if this temporary one can't last, it makes me wonder how hopeful we can see any cessation to the fighting.

BERMAN: Ahead @ THIS HOUR, our Wolf Blitzer will go underground inside these tunnels, such a crucial point in this conflict, the tunnels used by Hamas militants to launch attacks in Israel.

PEREIRA: Interestingly amid all of the fighting in Gaza, a new poll reveals that most Israelis do not want a cease-fire. What will it take to end the violence? We'll discuss.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PEREIRA: Just moments ago, live on our air, we saw just how fragile this humanitarian cease-fire was in the Middle East as we saw our John Vause in the midst of doing a live report here on CNN, see explosions happen right behind him.

John Vause joins us now to give us an idea. We obviously know that you guys had to take some shelter. How are things now? What are you seeing from your vantage point?

VAUSE: Well, Michaela, it certainly seems as if the Israelis may just may be making up for lost time during that temporary, humanitarian cease-fire.

There has been another air strike just behind me. In the distance, you may be able to see some smoke, and we're also getting some information about casualties caused by these air strikes.

One just over here -- and David you can pan over to my left and you can see the smoke which is still billowing from the downtown area. That's near the (inaudible) market area, and we're being told by Palestinian official that 15 people have been in fact been killed by an Israeli air strike there, including quite possibly a journalist who's been covering this conflict as well.

As you can see, the smoke there continues to rise over that neighborhood. These areas have in fact been told by the Israelis -- they drop pamphlets telling residents to in fact get out of these areas, get to safety.

But of course one of the big problems that we've had here, especially overnight, that even the areas that are meant to be safe turn out not to be.

We saw a U.N. school was hit. It was sheltering about 3,000 people. It happened about 4:30 in the morning. The U.N. says it was hit by an Israeli tank shell. Maybe as many as four Israeli tank shells, leaving possibly 20 people dead.

Israelis saying they have absolutely no doubt that it was in fact the Israelis who did it. They have warned the Israelis 17 times. They gave them the coordinates, they say that they were sheltering thousands of people who were moving away from their homes because of the conflict here in Gaza. Now the IDF, the Israeli Defense Forces, has started an investigation into the incident. They say their preliminary findings at this point say that their soldiers did in fact come under mortar fire from militants who are firing from the vaccinate of that U.N. run school and they returned fire, but a full investigation is still under way. Michaela.

BERMAN: Our John Vause in Gaza where he has seen some Israeli air strikes in the last few minutes. But also over the last four hours, he made clear that the rockets flying out of Gaza into Israel never stopped. Those rockets, one of the things that Israel is trying to take out in Gaza. Another one of the main issue right now, the tunnels. These tunnels running from Gaza under the border.

PEREIRA: Israel says these tunnels are used by Hamas to smuggle in weapons and then launch attacks into Israel. Our Wolf Blitzer had an opportunity to go under ground and see one of the insides of these tunnels for himself. Wolf joins us now from Israel. We understand, such a sticking point for Israelis. Their offensive is targeting these tunnels, they don't want to stop until these tunnels are obliterated. Give us a sense what it was like inside of these Wolf.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST, THE SITUATION ROOM: If you are claustrophobic, you don't want to be down underneath the ground. It is about 35 or 40 feet below the surface. It is not very big, you can't really stand up, it is not very tall. But it is very secure, pretty sophisticated. I'm sure we are going to show our viewers some pictures of what it was like inside.

The Israelis say they've discovered about 31 of these tunnels so far. They say they have destroyed about 15 of them. They are in the process of destroying some more. They don't know how many more there might be going from Gaza into Israel. So they are continuing their operation. Right now, they are searching for the tunnels. What their big fear is, of course, is that Hamas militants could go through those tunnels, get into Israel, kill some Israelis, or capture an Israeli soldier, try to bring that soldier back into Gaza. That is what happened with Gilad Shalit, one of the Israeli soldiers who was captures several years ago, held in Gaza by Hamas for about five years, then eventually traded for about 1,000 Palestinian prisoners who were fired by Israel in exchange for that one soldier Gilad Shalit. But look the tunnels have been part of the Gaza operation for a long time. Most of those tunnels were originally built between Gaza and Egypt. They were designed for smuggling, products or whatever, but weapons as well. Products, weapons coming into Gaza from Egypt through the Sinai. These tunnels have been around for a while, but the Israelis are really focusing on them now and they say that's one of their top priorities. If not their No. 1 priority right now.

BERMAN: Wolf, you say they have been around for a while yet we get the impression here that the Israeli military is perhaps surprised by the number and the effectiveness of some of these tunnels in to Israel from Gaza as opposed to the ones on the other side into Egypt. And I am also curious Wolf, Why is it taking so long to destroy the ones they have found? They have only destroyed 15 out of 31. What's the hold up? BLITZER: Well they are very secure. Very rigid in term of the

concrete that was placed there. I had a chance to walk through those tunnels. Apparently it's not that easy. What they do, they destroyed the entrances and the exits, if they can. So it's a massive operation. It takes a while and as one of the Israeli officers, when I was down there said to me, you don't know what you don't know. So you basically don't know how many there are right now. So it's a big operation for the Israelis, and I think you are right. They were surprised how extensive the tunnel network was, how secure they were, what was going on. I think they had a sense that there were these tunnels but I don't think they knew exactly how many or how extensive it was. So it's a big deal for them.

PEREIRA: A really fascinating look, helping us to understand, and we've appreciated having you on the ground, Wolf, giving us context, perceptive, and giving us a different view of what is going on there. Thank so much for that.

BLITZER: Thank you.

BERMAN: On the ground and in fact under the ground as well.

PEREIRA: Literally.

BERMAN: Wolf Blitzer going the extra mile here. Coming up, we did bring you the Israeli point of view on this conflict. Next up the Palestinian point of view on the violence in Gaza.

(COMMERCAIL BREAK)

BERMAN: I want to welcome back our viewers of the United States and around the world as the attack and the counterattacks in Israel and Gaza do continue. Or they begin anew we should say, after Israel had declared a four-hour cease-fire. There were rockets that came out of Gaza during that whole four-hour period and the Israelis clearly just began striking back in Gaza just behind our reporters there. We want to get the Palestinian perspective on the situation right now. I want to bring in Mustafa Barghouti, the founder on the Palestinian National initiative. He joins us from Ramallah. Dr. Barghouti, thank you so much for being with us. Israel had declared a four-hour cease fire, during this four-hour time period there continues to be rocket fire from Gaza into Israel. This follows a day when the Palestinian authority called on both sides, Hamas and Israel, to begin a cease- fire and Hamas refused. Do you think that Hamas is missing an opportunity here to stop the fighting?

MUSTAFA BARGHOUTI, FOUNDER, PALESTINIAN NATINAL INITITIVE: Unfortunately, your statement, sir, is full of wrong narrative, and that's the problem with the world media these days, because the Israeli narrative is overwhelming everybody with wrong information. First of all, there was a cease-fire for four hours declared by Israel and violated by Israel, and Israel attacked a market and killed 15 people and injured about 100. Before that, Israel attacked a school protected U.N. and this is the sixth school that Israel attacks and killed a number of people. What we see here are massacres. This is not a war between Hamas and Israel. It's not a war of Israel on Hamas. It's a war of Israel on the Palestinian civilians population. That's why 1, 310 people have been kill among Palestinians. Mostly civilians. Ninety percent of women and children and other civilians, and 7, 200 people are injured. On the Israeli side, it's merely Israeli soldiers that are killed who are invading Gaza. So in my opinion, there is a total disproportionality here. Israel is using disproportional indiscriminate force against the civilian population. There is no justification for these massacres are happening inside Gaza. By the way, I am part of the talks with the other groups in Palestine. Hamas agreed on the cease-fire. It was Israel who reject the offer to have 24-hour cease-fire. It was Mr. Netanyahu who announced that he does not want a cease-fire and he wants to proceed with his operation.

BERMAN: Dr. Barghouti , you can understand the frustration form those outside, that watch the situation unfold, and we do recognize the fact that there have been far more casualties on the Palestinian side then there have been on the Israeli. We absolutely see that. Our frustration is though, is when both sides point the finger at the other and say the cease-fire, they did it, they did it, they did it, each side is saying that. At some point somebody has to blink. At what point do you think there will be a calm or do you believe there won't be? That when a real work toward a cease-fire can happen?

BARGHOUTI: It's very simple. Let the United Nations security council meet and issue a declaration and impose a cease-fire. And then the side the refuses it will be to blame. We asked for that in the beginning of this conflict, it would have saved more than 1,300 lives if this had happened. We would have save Palestinian and Israeli lives. But it was the United States that rejected that offer, prevented the security council from taking that resolution on Israel's order. That is the problem. Israel thinks that there is a military solution to every political problem. The problem here is that the Israeli military occupation of Palestinian land. The problem here is that Israel insists to maintain a system of apartheid and segregation and discrimination against Palestinians, and without resolving that, we cannot have peace. We have tried talks with Israel for 21 years, what we've got is more settlements, more illegal actions. The problem today is that Israel has very powerful army and it feels totally impunitive to international law. And we are finding ourselves obliged to go to the international criminal court very soon, because we can not live with these massacres against our civilian population.

BERMAN: Dr. Barghouti, and again, I think it's probably fruitless to get into a discussion who violated which cease-fire request when. Because Cairo in Egypt but forth a plan, Hamas did reject that. Let's leave that aside for a moment. I want to ask you, you mentioned the U.N. facility that Israel perhaps hit killing 19 people. We pressed an Israeli official on that a few minutes ago. I want to ask about another U.N. facility right now because the United Nations says that they found munitions stored in a United Nations school inside Gaza, whether they were Hamas weapons or Islamic jihad weapons, there were weapons there, rockets. Do you think that that is a violation of international law and do you approve of Hamas perhaps keeping these weapons in these facilities?

BARGHOUTI: Of course not. That's a mistake and it should not have happened. That's a violation but that does not provide any justification for killing people inside shelters. You see the whole sector of Gaza is only 140 square miles. The Israeli army has declared half of it already unsafe zones and anybody who dares to go there will be shelled at.

Imagine a situation where the people of Brooklyn will be told you have to evacuate your homes within two hours, otherwise you will be shelled. That's exactly what happened to many Palestinian neighborhoods so far. That left the whole population of Gaza, of 1.8 million people, with only 70 square miles where they are clustered. Many of them, 300,000 of them, are clustered in these sheltered schools. And then the Israeli army comes and bombarding these schools killing ten's of people. And when they are asked why are you doing that, they say we are investigating the matter.

Come on, it's very clear, these are massacres and it's time to stop them. This will create hate. This will create demand for revenge. This is not good for Israel or for Palestine. This Israeli government is criminal. It is criminal towards Israelis and Palestinians, because it's driving everybody into a terrible situation that should be stopped immediately, and the world must interfere and say enough is enough. Occupying has to end. Racism has to end and peace must prevail.

PEREIRA: Dr. Mustafa Barghouti, we thank you for joining us on the air today to talk about the Palestinian side. Joining us from the Palestinian National Initiative. It's interesting, you and I both sit here and ask the questions of both sides and neither side is happy and we get accused of being fed the wrong information from the opposite side. It's such an impasse that we're at.

BERMAN: They can't agree on the facts, they can't agree on what has happened let alone what should happen. And therein lies just one of sticking points.

PEREIRA: Absolutely. We are going to take a short break here. Another concerning issue happening in Africa.