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At This Hour

Canada Defiant After Deadly Terror Attack; Obama: We Have to Remain Vigilant; How "ISIS Teens" Plan Was Unraveled; Lone Wolves a Concern in Terror Fight

Aired October 23, 2014 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: @THISHOUR, we're getting our first look at the shooter, the killer in yesterday's deadly rampage in Canada's capital. Canadian government officials have confirmed that this photo shows Michael Zehaf-Bibeau, who killed an army reservist at a Canadian war memorial and went in to attack parliament. This photo appeared on an Islamic State Twitter account that has been shut down.

Earlier this morning, a much better picture as far as I'm concerned, members of parliament in Canadian honored the man who ended Zehaf- Bibeau's shooting spree.

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BERMAN: I think they were honoring him but also honoring the pride and defiance of an entire nation. Kevin Vickers, the sergeant at arms, carried the symbol of authority. The parliament did get back to business today. It was Vickers who reportedly fired the fatal shot that brought down the killer. Police say Zehaf-Bibeau was killed inside the parliament building after fleeing Canada's war memorial where he shot dead 23-year-old Corporal Nathan Cirillo. Cirillo died standing guard before the Tomb of Canada's Unknown Soldier.

Earlier, Prime Minister Stephen Harper laid a wreath at the site. From there, he went to parliament where he promised to crack down on what he calls an enemy devoted to killing anyone who opposes Islamic ideology.

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STEPHEN HARPER, CANADIAN PRIME MINISTER: Our laws and police powers need to be strengthened in the area of surveillance, detention and arrest. They need to be much strengthened. I assure you, Mr. Speaker, that work which is already under way will be expedited.

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BERMAN: CNN is all over this story with reporters in Ottawa as well as Washington, D.C.

Our Chris Cuomo, "New Day" anchor, is at the war memorial where Corporal Nathan Cirillo was killed yesterday.

Chris, what an ordeal for Ottawa yesterday. It went on for hours and hours. They feared for a while there might be more suspects. This was happening in a city that is not used to this kind of chaos in any way. What is the mood there today?

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR, NEW DAY: It's certainly sad, mixed with shock, John. You say it perfectly. This place has had four homicides in the last calendar year, four. Think about that, in terms of -- it bespeaks virtue, crime is not present. They have a good handle of it. Something like this is upsetting in every way imaginable. You can see behind us they still have the place set up for solemnity here. They're no longer working the forensics of the area, though it's still taped off.

This entire story, this entire situation is about balancing extremes. You have a low crime area that has to do with the most frightening kind of crime right now. You have a country that has to renew its commitment to this. It's already been very committed. They have 90 people under watch. This man and the man involved in Monday's death were both flagged by Canadian intelligence authorities, both had their passports removed. The hardest part of this, the biggest unknown will be the most difficult to answer, and this is how do you deal with this ever-present new threat of misguided people who misunderstand the nature of faith and use it as an outlet for violence?

BERMAN: You bring up a good point, Chris. I know you've asked the question all morning. This guy was deemed such a threat that they froze his passport. Yet, somehow he got in Canada's parliament building with a gun, awfully close to the Canadian prime minister. The prime minister this morning called him a terrorist in no uncertain terms. What more do we know? What more are investigators turning up about this shooter?

CUOMO: I think it's very interesting the way that the investigators are approaching it. To answer the first part of your question, one part of the question is easy, the security around parliament was unsatisfied factory in this situation. They had four different types of police forces involved, but the coordination wasn't there. Again, a little of that comes from what threat awareness they had. That will change certainly. It's just what the present realities demand.

The harder fix is how do you stop someone like the shooter yesterday? On the U.S. side, what we're hearing is that he was deeply disturbed as an individual. That's why he sought out Islam as a convert. He was desperately seeking some type of validation, but those qualities appear in so many being watched on both sides of the border, John, that the biggest challenge is how to deal with what is a very real threat. Frankly, they don't have great answers.

BERMAN: No. It's a numbers game.

Chris Cuomo, great work up there. We appreciate your time.

Coming up for us, there are little more than 2,000 patrol officers along the U.S. border, the northern border with Canada. Is that enough to keep America safe? How the U.S. will now be tightening security after the attack in Ottawa.

Then, they snatch money, lie to their parents, skip school, all because they wanted to take a trip to join ISIS. Is there now a threat, a young threat in the United States that is being overlooked?

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MATT OLSEN, FORMER DIRECTOR, NATIONAL COUNTERTERRORISM CENTER: I would say the most likely type of attack is one of these home grown violent extremists or lone offenders in the United States.

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BERMAN: We have new video just in to CNN. It shows Kevin Vickers, the man honored this morning as a hero, the sergeant at arms at Canada's House of Commons. This video shows him holding his handgun. It's from after the moment when he gunned down the killer, Michael Zehaf-Bibeau, who killed one of their soldiers at the Tomb of the Unknowns. You can see him walking the halls, carrying a gun right there, so calm, so collected. Still obviously doing his job. For that, he was honored so movingly this morning by the Canadian parliament which is back at work today, which itself is a symbol of the defiance of that nation. We'll keep going discussing this right now.

Keep going, dicussing this. President Obama says the United States has to remain vigilant. The FBI is urging its field offices across the country to stay on alert. The Secret Service is reviewing security procedures at the White House. There was another fence jumper last night. The military tightening security at the Tomb of the Unknowns at Arlington National Cemetery, and the U.S. is warning patrol agents at the border with Canada to be on high alert.

Our Rene Marsh is in Washington.

Rene, give us a sense of what's going on?

RENE MARSH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I can tell you the U.S.-Canadian border is a little more than an hour's drive from where the shots were fired in Ottawa. I spoke with a Department of Homeland Security official this morning. I'm told officers at land, air and sea borders remain on increased alert. Essentially, they are paying attention to people arriving at the border because we do know there are still surrounding the motivation behind this shooting spree in Ottawa, whether this one man was a part of a larger network. They're not increasing screening for people from a specific country for that reason because they're still trying to get facts. However, the language they are using is they're looking for anything suspicious. But they point out, at this point, there's no evidence that what's happening there in Ottawa poses any threat to us here in the United States. Of course, that could change, John, as they get more information and continue to piece this all together.

BERMAN: Rene, there's so much focus on the southern border in the United States between the U.S. and Mexico, that's less than half as long as the border with Canada. The U.S.-Mexican border has about 18,000. The border with Canada has about 2,000. Does this look to be a greater focus up north?

MARSH: Looking at the map, I can tell you the U.S.-Canadian border is the longest shared border between two countries. You can see more than 5,500 miles. Also the longest undefended border when you compare the military presence there, the south even border to the northern border. The situation between the two countries are different. We know that Canada is the U.S.'s ally. Don't have the same sort of issues as it relates to the cartels as well as people illegally crossing the border. That's why some might say they have that increased military presence there on the southern border. But it is definitely what happened yesterday raised the question of is the focus in the wrong place. We've heard in the past lawmakers, politicians, bringing up the possibility of ISIS coming through that southern border. We have heard from the Department of Homeland Security over and over again, there's no evidence suggesting that that is possible. However, we have seen in Canada, if you remember back in 2006, the Toronto 18. 18 people arrested for a plot to create chaos. They had sympathy with al Qaeda. So they do have that in their past.

That being said, DHS says they are very much on alert at the northern border. They're not saying they're not focusing on it. When you do compare the two borders, absolutely right, there's more of a presence down on the southern border.

BERMAN: Vigilance is the key word for today.

Rene Marsh, thank you so much.

Ahead @THISHOUR, he killed and terrorized Canada's capital city, but why? How the shooter's motive could be tied to ISIS.

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So pretend to be sick, grab some cash and head out for an adventure. Sound like a typical teenager playing hooky from school, but in this case, playing hooky became a way to try to join a terrorist group. We're learning more about the three teenage girls caught in Germany apparently trying to join up with ISIS.

Our justice reporter, Evan Perez, joins us with just how they were caught -- Evan?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: John, when you and I were this able, 15, 16, 17 years old, we might have skipped school to go to the beach. That's what I did. The FBI says these girls were headed to Turkey and perhaps Syria to join a terrorist group. We have police reports from the Arapahoe County sheriff which tells a really startling tale here. The sheriff says they got a call from the father of the 15 and 17-year-old who basically said at when he comes home from work he doesn't find them there. He's not worried. Turns out they were with their friend, a 16-year-old, who skipped school that day. She talked to her father around the same time in the morning and said she had been late for school. The school had contacted the father to say that the daughter wasn't in school that day. So next thing they know, the FBI is getting a flag on their passports because they have now traveled all the way to Germany, which is where the authorities there had stopped them before they could even get to Turkey.

This is a very scary story for a lot of parents because this is not something a lot of people see. The FBI has seen, you know, people trying to talk to terrorist groups on-line, but they've never seen people this young, 15, 16, 17 years old, and it's very disconcerting to them.

BERMAN: Strange to me how any teenagers could get to Germany without the parents apparently knowing. Any charges expected from this?

PEREZ: Well, no. Not any charges because these -- they're minors and it really does appear that they didn't have a plan, per se, of where they were going. The FBI is looking into who they were talking to. Perhaps there was a recruiter somewhere in Turkey or in Syria who was trying to lure them there. It doesn't appear that there's anybody here who was helping them out. They were able to steal $2,000 to make it there. That's as disconcerting answer for the FBI as well.

BERMAN: I don't know if there is a better answer but they're getting grounded for trying to join ISIS and that may be it.

Evan Perez, what a strange story. Thank you so much.

PEREZ: Right.

BERMAN: Ahead for us @THISHOUR, investigators say the Ottawa shooter appears to have acted alone. So how do you fight a lone wolf? That is the challenge now facing law enforcement officials. We're going to speak to a man seen recruiting from both sides. Stay with us.

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OLSEN: I would say the most likely type of attack is one of the homegrown violent extremists or lone offenders in the United States.

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BERMAN: Former U.S. Counter-terrorism official expressing concern about lone wolves a day before the terror attack on Canada's parliament.

Two sources tell CNN the gunman, Michael Zehaf-Bibeau, was a converts to Islam, that his passport had been frozen by Canadian authorities when they learned he wanted to fight overseas. He record of drug arrests. And while ISIS may have stepped up recruitment in Canada, there is no sense just yet that this attacker was part of ISIS. Not yet. That is what is being investigated right now.

Joining me is Haras Rafiq, an outreach officer at a think tank in London dedicated to fighting terrorism.

People are pointing to this man and saying he had a troubled past, may have been disturbed, said he had been chased by the devil. But being disturbed doesn't preclude the possibility that you are a target for recruitment. In fact, it may make you more likely to be recruited?

HARAS RAFIQ, OUTREACH OFFICER, QUILLIAM FOUNDATION: Absolutely. There are certainly four particular pathways. And one of them is having some sort of mental health issues, having some sort of disenfranchisement, disillusionment, in this case, some sort of, you know, history of wrongdoings and not being part of society. These guys are very susceptible to people who would recruit them to a point where they actually believed that the only way that they are going to get a solution to the problems and with everybody else is to fight for the utopian Islamist caliphate. And then underpin that with the concept they are part of this block and that God not only wants them to do this, God will reward them for it. Yeah, somebody with a past such as this particular shooter is an ideal candidate for recruitment for groups such as ISIL.

BERMAN: Haras, I want you to hang on, because we did get information in to CNN and I want you to hear it and comment on it.

Investigators are telling Jim Sciutto and Pam Brown, our reporters here, that this shooter had connections to other jihadists in Canada who shared a radical Islamic ideology including at least one who went overseas to fight in Syria. That's multiple U.S. sources telling CNN.

Does that surprise you?

RAFIQ: Not at all. I mean one of the misconceptions is that people self-radicalize, especially on-line, but the reality is, you don't go on to the Internet, you don't go on-line looking to buy a pair of shoes and then becoming a jihadi. You need to have contact with somebody who is a current recruiter. And we need now to actually look at the way we actually deal with these people as well. Because we're very good, certainly in the U.K., not so much other country, once people are identified as being supporters of terrorism, we do have programs in place to try to de-radicalize them. What we don't have is the wider piece of the whole preventative measures, and that is to actually build resilience within the community, so when these guys are indoctrinated with ideas and values and world views, they've got the ability to push back. The on-line world, as opposed to the real world, is fast becoming the vehicle, the mechanism, for recruitment by these recruiters.

BERMAN: Haras, a few seconds left. Seems what you're saying the term lone wolf can be a misnomer. It can't just happen in a vacuum.

RAFIQ: Absolutely it cannot. We've done analysis on this. There has to be contact, either in the real world or on-line, with either a recruiter or other supporters of jihadism or extremism.

BERMAN: All right. Haras Rafiq, thank you for being with us.

Again, the information just in from Jim Sciutto and Pamela Brown, the shooter in Canada did have ties to other radical Islamics inside Canada. They are going to have much more on that with "Legal View" with Ashleigh Banfield, which begins right now.