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At This Hour

Saddam Hussein's Last Top Lieutenant Killed; Georgia Legalizes Medical Marijuana as Lawmakers Change Views; Ohio Man Pleads Not Guilty in Terror Case; Mike Huckabee to Announce Presidential Plans Tonight. Aired 11:30a-12p ET

Aired April 17, 2015 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:32:59] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Breaking news out of Iraq right now, we just learned there's been an explosion in the city of Erbil not far from the U.S. consulate there. You can see Erbil on the map, in the north in the Kurdish region of that country. The explosion happened on the same road that houses the U.S. consulate and the Kurdish regional government. We do not know the size of this blast yet or the range of injuries suffered there. We'll keep on following that for you and bring you more information as soon as we get it.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: We are also getting new information on the death of the last of Saddam Hussein's top lieutenants, Izzat Ibrahim al Douri. He was killed in an operation near Tikrit.

Let's bring in CNN terrorism analyst, Paul Cruickshank; as well as CNN military analyst, and Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona.

Colonel, important to this conversation, you were once a liaison officer at the embassy in Baghdad to the Iraqi military. Let's discuss al Douri and what kind of blow this could be for terrorist organizations like ISIS because there's a lot of talk about the role post-Saddam that al Douri played in establishing insurgency like ISIS and al Qaeda in Iraq in that country. Colonel, what do you think?

LT. COL. RICK FRANCONA, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, al Douri has a long history. He goes back to 1968 with Saddam. He was instrumental in the creation of the Iraqi government and Iraqi military, and involved in the decision to go after the Kurds in their own country. He's also been a very spiritual figure for Saddam. He convinced Saddam to the Iraqi flag, trying to wrap the war in Desert Storm around the mantle of Islam. He's an influential figure. Later, after the American invasion in 2003, he became part of the insurgency and he was an adviser to ISIS. His role was primarily that of recruiter and adviser. He'll be missed certainly. But I don't think it's going to really temper what ISIS is doing. They have their own leadership. He's one of many.

[11:35:05] BERMAN: This guy was a serious player for a long, long time. One of the most wanted people on earth, certainly during the U.S. occupation there. There were rumors there before that he had been killed or captured. We don't have confirmation yet, Paul Cruickshank. I have to say we need that confirmation because timing would be convenient for the Iraqi government as they battle the ISIS insurgency to be able to say that we got al Douri. Explain to me what role he's played the last year or two, the help that perhaps the Sunni former insurgents have given to is as ISIS has rampaged through that country.

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: John, during the Iraqi insurgency, he created this group that was a group called National al Bandi (ph), which was a group of former Saddam Hussein loyalists, regime loyalists, who were fighting to restore Sunni primacy. He's very separate from ISIS. This is a marriage of convenience between his group and ISIS, which is lead by Abu Bakr al Baghdadi. When al Baghdadi was in prison, he came across a lot of these Baathists. He was able to create alliances with them after he got out of jail. But he acts independently from ISIS but his group supported ISIS when they took control of Mosul last June and all these other Iraqi towns as well. And it's by no means confirmed that he's being killed. He's been reported dead or captured many times before.

BOLDUAN: Colonel, you know, when we have conversations about when leaders have been taken out, it does beg the question when you talk about insurgencies, the impact that has on the organization. When you -- if these leaders are taken out, is it more symbolic if al Douri is captured or killed or does it have an impact on the organization on the ground?

FRANCONA: It will have an impact. Every time you kill a leader of one of these terrorist organizations, they are replaced. They have a deep bench. The replacement generally isn't as competent as the one that's been removed. It impacts the organization.

Paul brings up good points about the actual relationship between al Douri and ISIS. This will impact a lot of the Sunnis that are supporting ISIS. As we know this is a -- as Paul says, this is a marriage of convenience. It may impact that a little bit. But is it going to impact ISIS' capability on the battlefield, I don't think so, not at all.

BERMAN: Wait to see if we get confirmation about whether this man was actually killed and more confirmation about the military operation that may have taken him out. That would be very interesting as well.

Paul Cruickshank, Lieutenant General Francona, thank you for being with us.

BOLDUAN: Also ahead for us, continue to talk about terror, potential terror. An Ohio man accused of learning about terror from terrorists themselves, tactics like breaking into homes, hand-to-hand combat and using explosives and planning to use his training home in the U.S. We're talking about a naturalized U.S. citizen and what he told a judge this hour, and how close he may have come to pull off plans to commit terror. That's coming up.

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[11:41:50] BERMAN: Georgia just became the latest state to legalize medical marijuana. Governor Nathan Deal signed a deal that makes up to 20 ounces of cannabis oil legal, with a doctor's approval, for people with cancer and other diseases.

BOLDUAN: It comes alongside a new look at medical marijuana use by Sanjay Gupta and how the issue has evolved in regards to politics and science over the years. Sanjay says he is surprised how elected officials have changed their views on the issue and are now beginning to push for changes in the law. That's a big part of his latest report called "Weed 3." Here's a new sneak peek.

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SEN. CORY BOOKER, (D), NEW JERSEY: This bill that we're introducing seeks to right decades of long.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): March 2015, Democrats Cory Booker and Kirsten Gillibrand, along with Republican Rand Paul have just proposed the most bodacious marijuana legislation in our lifetime. If it passes, it will create a fundamental change in the way the United States views and treats marijuana.

BOOKER: Our drug laws in this country, as a whole, need a revolution of common sense and compassion.

GUPTA: For starters, it would do something scientists have been begging for, reschedule cannabis from Schedule 1 to a much less restrictive Schedule 2 controlled substance.

SEN. KIRSTEN GILLIBRAND, (D), NEW YORK: Once you make the class of drugs Schedule 2, you can research it and find out what are medical impacts and when can you use it and when does it make sense. That's what's necessary. It's so simple.

GUPTA: The bill would also mandate more farms to grow research-grade marijuana and allow greater access to it for those in need, including veterans who would for the first time be able to get a prescription for medicinal marijuana from the V.A. hospitals.

BOOKER: Let's stop the pot hypocrisy. We now have three presidents that have admitted to smoking marijuana. People in public office, all throughout the Senate, have said, hey, I have smoked marijuana recreationally. How much of a hypocrite do you have to be to say that I broke American laws using pot as a recreational thing and that I'm not going to support this idea that, as a medicine for severely sick people, that they shouldn't be able to access this drug.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BOLDUAN: Earlier we spoke with Sanjay about why he thinks this federal measure is so bold and important.

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GUPTA: For starters, it would reschedule the substance from Schedule 1 substance, which puts it in the highest Schedule, to a much more lenient Schedule 2. Right now, it's preordained as being a drug of high abuse with no medicinal benefit. When you put it in Schedule 2, it has accepted medicinal use. And that changes a lot of things. It changes the world for federal scientists and funding, and for the amount of products that can be grown. It really makes research a lot easier.

BOLDUAN: You heard Senator Booker (ph) in your interview talk about presidents who smoked pot or said they didn't smoked pot but did. You asked President Obama about this legislation. Where does he stand on it?

[11:46:03] GUPTA: It was the strongest I heard him talk about this, the idea that rescheduling it should be on the table, the idea that people who have legitimate uses for it should be able to get access to it, and the idea that he acknowledged that ideology has trumped science for too long on this particular issue and it needs to change. He talked a lot about this when he was running for president eight years ago or six years ago. This is the first time that we've heard some of his most current positions with regard to reform specifically.

BERMAN: You have a new op-ed out calling for a revolution in the way we think about marijuana in this country. This is now your third special on marijuana. It's called "Weed 3." You have gone pretty far out there now. I can't imagine that 10 or 15 years ago you ever thought you would do this.

GUPTA: Right.

BERMAN: Why is this so important to you? How come you keep pushing this as hard as you do?

GUPTA: I was against it for a while. I wrote articles in the past saying the evidence wasn't compelling around medical marijuana. We're spoon-fed so much of these thoughts. Even when you look at the literature in the United States, you come to realize that over a 15- year period, the vast majority of studies were designed to look for harm and not benefit. Already, if you look at the science, you're getting a distorted picture.

What I saw was, not only can it work for people, many times it's the only thing that can work for people. So it almost became a moral issue in some ways that we would deny people this. Will there be abuse? Yeah. Will there be malingerers who just want to get high? Yes. Does that happen with other medications? Certainly, does. But with this, the stakes are high. Are you going to deny people something that could work because you're concerned about those issues or do you try to correct those issues and make sure people get the care they need?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BOLDUAN: Our thanks to Sanjay, as always.

"Weed 3, the Marijuana Revolution" premiers Sunday night at 9:00 eastern and pacific, followed by the premiere of "High Profits" right here on CNN.

We will be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:50:28] BERMAN: Moments ago, an Ohio man pleaded not guilty to federal charges of terrorism. That plea came a short time ago, as we said, in Columbus, Ohio. Federal authorities say 23-year-old Abdirahman Mohamud traveled to Syria to train with extremists last year and then came back to the U.S. to kill American soldiers.

BOLDUAN: The alleged plot was foiled, plans stopped obviously, but this is the scenario that security experts have been warning long about, radicalized Americans learning deadly terror tactics overseas and bringing those tactics home to put the training to use.

Let's discuss this again with CNN terrorism analyst, Paul Cruickshank. He's back with us.

Paul, as we say this is what counterterrorism officials have long feared, that you have American citizens, though, he was just a natural U.S. citizen, going abroad to get training -- he went to Syria -- coming back to commit acts of terror. Do you think this continues to expose a problem or do you think this shows that the system works because they caught him?

CRUICKSHANK: Well, clearly, the system works in this case, Kate. They caught him. He had pretty poor operational trade craft. He was posting videos of himself in Syria and sending them back to friends in the United States. That may have helped them catch him.

But the worrying thing about this case is that he received, according to his own account, explosive training and also shooting training with al Qaeda in Syria in some kind of terrorist training camp. This would have been somebody able to come back to the United States and carry out potentially an attack. And we've seen the last several years, really the years after 9/11, the most serious plots against the West involved people who trained in terrorist training camps overseas. With the Boston bombers, for example, they downloaded their instructions from the Internet and their bombs, though very deadly in Boston, were actually relatively weak. If they had managed to train in an al Qaeda training camp overseas we could have seen many, many more people being killed in Boston because they learn how to make much more powerful bombs. That's the worry here.

BERMAN: This is no correspondent course. This was on hands training in Syria. Not necessarily ISIS, but, Paul, I don't think that necessarily matters. This guy was training with al Qaeda or at least with terrorists inside the borders of Syria and on his way back here. What kind of information now -- he's going to be tried in court, so limited to what questions they can ask. But intelligence officials what kind of information do you think they would like to get from this man right now?

CRUICKSHANK: They could get an intelligence mother load really from him if he were to start cooperating, all about how al Nusra is operating, the kind of training that they're offering recruits over there. But this really speaks to the al Qaeda threat as well. ISIS has been stealing all the headlines recently, but al Qaeda, Jabad al Nusra, the al Qaeda affiliate in Syria, has been steadily expanding in recent months. It just took over control of the regional capital last month. It's got ties, significant ties to the Khoresan group, a group trying to plan attacks against American aviation. Al Qaeda in Syria may be a bigger threat to the United States in the long term than ISIS is.

BOLDUAN: Paul Cruickshank, always great to have you. Thanks so much.

Again, just to drive home the point he's been arrested, charged, in federal court, pled not guilty, but that's just beginning to see what happens in this case and many more.

Thank you, Paul. Ahead for us AT THIS HOUR, if you're a Republican with ambitions in 2016 you may find yourself in New Hampshire. Today, definitely the home of the nation's first primary. That's where everyone is going. Why? We'll discuss.

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[11:57:25] BOLDUAN: Happening today, former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee expected to make his presidential intentions known. Huckabee is one of the many featured speakers at the Republican leadership summit that is starting today in New Hampshire.

BERMAN: They are pretty much all there in New Hampshire, all these announced candidates, possible candidates, would-be candidates, exploring candidates.

Let's go to our senior Washington correspondent, Jeff Zeleny, covering the presidential race, which has started, thankfully.

Jeff, first of all, off the bat, what do we know about Huckabee? Is he in? Do we think he's in?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Most advisers who are close to Governor Huckabee and a lot of early supporters from the 2008 campaign believe he's running. He won the Iowa caucuses back in 2008. We're going to get a better sense of that later today. But most of his supporters believe he will be in this race, which, of course, adds to the long, long list of people already in. Some 19 candidates are in New Hampshire today and tomorrow -- John?

BOLDUAN: What are they all going to do there? What will we hear from them?

BERMAN: It's a small state.

BOLDUAN: I know.

(LAUGHTER)

That's a lot of candidates in a small state.

ZELENY: It is small. It's more than one per county, actually. But that includes the longest of long shots. New Hampshire is an equal opportunity. If you say you're running you can come up and give a speech.

But we're watching what Jeb Bush is going to do. This is his second trip to New Hampshire and Chris Christie was taking him on this week there. What engagement there will be among the Republicans will be interesting to watch. They're all, you know, totally eager to go after President Obama and Hillary Clinton, who's also in the race. But will they go after each other? That's what we'll be watching for.

BERMAN: Hillary Clinton, by the way, making her own trip to New Hampshire next week. What does she want do there, Jeff, that she didn't do in Iowa?

ZELENY: She basically wants to repeat what she did in Iowa in New Hampshire. Her campaign believes her trip went very well. But she's changing some of her positions along the way, sort of refining her positions for 2016 from that 2008 campaign. So on gay marriage and if undocumented immigrants should have driver's licenses, she's updated her position. She's freshened them a little bit. She will be talking about that in New Hampshire. Not any big crowds, not any big rallies, probably no press conferences. Just these very small, controlled settings with people who are already supportive of her.

BOLDUAN: Jeff Zeleny watching all 19 -- let's not call it -- let's call them candidates for the sake of it right now and then figure it out later.

Jeff, it's great to see you.

ZELENY: OK, thanks.

BOLDUAN: All right. Great to see you all.

[11:49:54] BERMAN: Thanks for joining us AT THIS HOUR.

President Obama set to speak in the East Room with the prime minister of Italy. He will be taking questions on the key issues of today.

Our Wolf Blitzer picks up the coverage right now.