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At This Hour

New Cell Phone Video of Freddie Gray Arrest; Could Hillary Clinton Benefit from Optimist for Obama, Stronger Economy; Jurors to See Photo of Tsarnaev Flipper Off Camera; John Hinckley Jr Could Become Freer. Aired 11:30a-12p ET

Aired April 21, 2015 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:30:20] KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Baltimore police are expected to release the names of the six suspended police officers involved in the arrest of Freddie Gray, the man who later died. New cell phone video has surfaced that shows Gray's arrest after officers chased him for a couple of blocks.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: What we do not see and what is key here is just how Gray's spinal cord was nearly severed, which led to his death after a coma a week later. The police department has launched an internal investigation that is supposed to be completed by May 1st.

We're joined by Suzanne Malveaux covering the story live in Baltimore.

Suzanne, what's the latest?

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I just talked to the family attorney, William Murphy Jr, about what they expect for today. There are two things they are expecting. They have not necessarily seen. One of them is a more complete autopsy report. They were hoping to get that this morning. They're still waiting. The second thing is the body of Freddie Gray. They hoped to get that today as well to start the process of making arrangements for burial. You can imagine the sense of frustration the family is feeling now.

For the first time, they're going to come out later today about 5:00 at the western police district where they will speak publicly for the first time. We're expecting to see the mother, his twin sister and his stepfather who will make a statement on behalf of the family.

Here's some of the things that we've been learning just over the last 24 hours. These are details from the mayor and the police commissioner. That it started off with three officers on a bike, which they were patrolling what is called a hot spot or area of high drug activity. They noticed two gentlemen, one of them Freddie Gray. They made eye contact. They started running and they started pursuing them. According to the police and the mayor, Freddie Gray gave up without any use of force. There was an officer that has a taser gun but he didn't use his taser. Gray was then put into the police van and they're told immediately afterwards, minutes afterwards, he asked for an inhaler, that he was having problems breathing. It was then that the driver said that he noticed him acting irate. They then pulled the van over to complete some paperwork and then they put him in leg irons. At that point, they got back into the van. They made several stops, including picking up another suspect along the way. It was then 40 minutes from the time they first came into contact with Gray that that is when he actually got out of the van. They called for a medic and this is how the mayor described his condition.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHANIE RAWLINGS-BLAKE, MAYOR OF BALTIMORE: You see him using his legs to get into the van. We know he was able bodied when he was in the van. And we know that when he was finally taken out of the van, he was unresponsive. We know he asked for medical attention. We know that medical attention was not immediately requested for him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: She goes onto say that when he got into the van he was able to speak. He was able to move. But when he got out of the van, he was not able to speak and he was not even able to breathe. The mayor also has said that she has seen this autopsy report or some aspect of it and that it creates more questions than answers because we know that the spinal cord was nearly severed and that the neck was broken. But she says no limbs were broken. There were no signs of any other kind of injury to the body. So they are still wondering how that happened and what actually happened during the transport.

We hope to get some answers as we continue to follow this. The investigation not going to be yet wrapped up or complete until next Friday -- John and Kate?

BERMAN: That's a long time for that family. As you said, more questions keep popping up here.

Suzanne Malveaux, thanks so much.

BOLDUAN: Ahead for us AT THIS HOUR, growing optimism for President Obama as Americans see a stronger economy. It seems to be helping his approval rating. Could the only Democrat in the presidential race, Hillary Clinton, benefit from this optimism?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:37:33] BOLDUAN: For the first time in two years, President Obama's approval rating is higher than his disapproval. A new poll shows the public is about evenly split on his job performance but look at the numbers, 48 percent approving, 47 percent disapproving. It generally reflects more upbeat opinion about the economy.

BERMAN: People think the economy is doing OK right now. They really think it's going to do well in about a year, which is a big indication of where people think the country is headed. The question that we all have here is what does that mean for the presidential election? Can some of that goodwill rub off on any presidential candidate?

Let's bring in CNN's political director, David Chalian, who joins us live from satellite in the city of Washington, D.C.

David Chalian, now there are several camps looking at these poll numbers. Probably, the White House who looks at all poll numbers, and also the Hillary Clinton campaign. If you were inside the Clinton war room in Brooklyn right now, what do you make of these poll numbers?

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: You are happy with these poll numbers in you're in that Brooklyn campaign headquarters. There is nobody on planet earth who wants Barack Obama to be politically healthy more than Hillary Clinton. It just will have a huge impact on her chances to win a third consecutive term for her party. We saw how important it was when Ronald Reagan left office with 63 percent approval rating to sort of get George H.W. Bush elected for that third term. The president's approval rating and standing of how the public perceives the economy is important for Hillary Clinton to help make that sale to the American public of continuing with Democrats in the Oval Office.

BOLDUAN: When you talk about the sell to the American public, made me think back to her announcement video. She nodded toward the economic situation going on in the country when she said Americans have fought their way back from tough economic times but the deck is still stacked in the favor of those at the top. In this new poll, we asked them, is America divided into haves and have-nots. 48 percent, yes. 52 percent, no. It goes a little bit along with what she's thinking but the country is split there as well.

[11:39:50] CHALIAN: Yeah. And the country is split along partisan lines, which plays into that answer as well, Kate. What you've got there are the fault lines for the presidential election. And whoever the Republican nominee is and if indeed Hillary Clinton emerges as Democratic nominee as is most likely right now, those conversations about haves and have-nots will play a huge part in how these two candidates square off against each other. As you guys were saying at the top, it's astounding to see that the country is feeling better about more Americans saying the economy is in good or excellent shape right now than have ever said that in the history of our polling during the Obama presidency. So this is an actual high-water mark for the White House.

BERMAN: If you look at the approval ratings of the president, we say it's good for him.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: That's not good full stop. His numbers are just basically not awful, which is a decent place to be. It's that economic optimism and feeling that things will be good that the country is expressing right now. Just to compare, David, where we are right now in the Obama administration to the Bush administration, which a few of us are old enough to remember, at this stage, in the administration he was in the 30s. It's not that weight around a candidate's ankles that we saw eight years ago.

CHALIAN: Right. You remember the heavy weight of two wars, Iraq and Afghanistan, and then sort of post-Katrina where a lot of country sort of lost confidence in the Bush administration's ability to govern. He wasn't able to recuperate from that. Barack Obama is hoping to sort of leave office in a year and a half or so with numbers more like Ronald Reagan or Bill Clinton when they were able to leave office. You know, I don't think that -- the country is divided and Barack Obama has not shown the ability to without some major effect like his re-election campaign or his first inauguration where there's this honeymoon period. We haven't seen him through the course of his presidency be able to ride above a majority and like you pointed out, he doesn't get an actual majority of support here in our poll for approval.

BOLDUAN: David, when you look at it from the flip side of the optimism as folks look at the economy, what do Republican candidates do? That's where you would think they would really want to be harping on how to bring back the economy because President Obama hasn't done enough to help you out. Where do they focus now? The poll numbers may not be working in their favor.

CHALIAN: Right. This is where certainly solutions are not the same as Hillary Clinton's proposed solutions. You may hear them sound similar alarms that the economy is not working for everyone and that although people may feel better about the economy, there are many people being left behind just due to the nature of the changes in our economy and no doubt you hear Republicans making that case as they are out there on the stump. Hillary Clinton was just saying yesterday up in New Hampshire, Kate, that it seems like small businesses have stalled out. That's not necessarily an elbow to the Obama administration as much as it is an economic reality. I think you're going to see Republicans play with that as well. Like I said, the solutions won't be the same.

BERMAN: David Chalian, always great to have you here with us. It seems to say that Democrats to a certain extent are coming home to the president. Will they stay at home with Hillary Clinton as David was saying?

BOLDUAN: Time to figure that out.

BERMAN: Exactly.

All right, we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:46:57] BERMAN: Just a few moments ago, in Boston, the prosecution finished up its opening statements in the sentencing phase in the trial of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, convicted now in the Boston Marathon bombing. We heard stories about the victims, people that were killed and maimed in these attacks, and there was something very, very interesting in these opening statements. We can't show it to you now but the prosecution showed a photo of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev from July of 2013 when he was already in a holding cell in the courthouse flipping off the camera, flipping off the camera inside the courthouse as he was in his orange jumpsuit, a very interesting piece of evidence to start this sentencing phase.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely, especially when what the defense is trying to lay out is to make him a more sympathetic character.

Let's discuss with Sunny Hostin, former federal prosecutor; and Joey Jackson, criminal defense attorney.

Great to see both of you.

What do you make of that, Sunny?

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: We know that Judy Clark, one of the best defense attorneys in the world when it comes to the death penalty, she is going to try to humanize Tsarnaev. Her entire argument will rest on the fact that this was a college student. This was a good kid. And he was somehow taken over to the dark side by his brother, Tamerlan. Now, the prosecution is ready for that and the argument is, listen, whether or not that's the case, this is who he is now. This is who he was when he participated in the horrible, horrible bombing at the marathon. And be sure, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, this guy flipping off the camera is not a good guy.

BERMAN: He's not just flipping off the camera. The obvious implication is, Joey, he's flipping you off in the jury. He's flipping off the people of Boston. He's flipping off the victims here.

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: It's a problem, John and Kate. The reality is that it's a very symbolic gesture but a very powerful one. You talk about people here who are dead. A community affected. Life lost. Limbs lost. And something that certainly affected Boston but affected this country, and to have that cavalier attitude plays into what the prosecution has been laying out all along. And they have really had a three-fold strategy. The strategy, A, to talk about the compelling nature of this crime and the many people that were affected. B, to talk about his radicalization, and that's why he did it. And, C, which is what this plays into, was to talk about him going and buying milk and working out. He doesn't care. Now he's telling you, you know what you can do. It's very problematic for the defense.

BOLDUAN: Speaking to, A, on what Joey was talking about, they're now hearing from witnesses. They're talking to a double amputee who was obviously there that day. She lost both of her legs. And she testified previously very vividly about what she went through and her experience. And you can expect that's exactly what the prosecution wants to lay out here in this penalty phase for the jury.

[11:49:57] HOSTIN: Yes. I think that's right. The jury has already heard from many victims. They do need to hear from them again and how this has affected I do think, though, that it may be a bit troublesome. We have heard from some of the victims they do not want Tsarnaev put to death. They don't believe in the death penalty. They want him to spend the rest of his life in prison and that gives the defense a lot to work with because we're not talking about a Texas jury, not talking about a Florida jury, where the death penalty is more accepted, here we're talking about a Massachusetts jury and the death penalty, voir dire, even though death qualified many of the jurors had some trouble admitting they would be able to impose the death penalty if the evidence was there. So I think there may be the defense argument that, listen, putting him in prison for the rest of his life is a fate worse than death because he wants to be a martyr. BERMAN: Joey, is that their best defense? Do you expect the defense

to lean on the victims here to spar Dzhokhar Tsarnaev's life?

JACKSON: No. The victims' opinions are not what's at issue here. The fact is that there are mitigating factors and aggravating factors an the defense will focus on --

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: You don't think the jury takes into account what the victims --

(CROSSTALK)

JACKSON: I do. But if you look at the statute, the statute doesn't speak to the issues of opinions for mitigation. It speaks to other matters. Was he under duress? What role did he play? Was it a minimal role? It speaks to other issues. His background, what about his background would make him and compel him to do this? I don't think the opinions of individual victims are something that the statute provides to be relevant. What's relevant is, what are the other lessening and mitigating factors that would spare his life.

HOSTIN: I couldn't disagree more. That is really because yes, we expect the jurors to follow the instructions of the judge and we expect the jurors to follow the law, but when they go back into that jury room deciding the fate life or death of a man you can't expect them to do it in a vacuum. You can't expect hem to sort of take their common sense hats off, especially if you have one juror, it has to be unanimous, one juror thinks I'm to the going put him to death because that is what he wants, let's not make him a martyr, make him suffer the rest of his life in prison, all you need is one juror to believe that.

(CROSSTALK)

JACKSON: That I agree with. What I disagree with is the statute does not provide for what the opinions are of the victims, however compelling that may be.

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: Just as the victims are split on his fate, so are our legal minds.

HOSTIN: We are.

BERMAN: Sunny Hostin and Joey Jackson, great to have you here with us.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: Next for us, the last man to shoot a U.S. president, now John Hinckley Jr could see his freedom extended even more. A decision could be coming within days. We'll tell you all about it and the new controversy surrounding it next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:56:31] BERMAN: There is a hearing tomorrow to determine whether John Hinckley Jr could essentially become a free man, at least a freer man. It has been 34 years since Hinckley shot President Ronald Reagan; and James Brady, the press secretary; and Timothy McCarthy, a Secret Service agent. Reagan recovered, and Brady, who died last year, was left paralyzed.

BOLDUAN: At the time, Hinckley was found not guilty by reason of insanity. Through the years, he has found himself with more and more freedom. Recently, spending 17 days a month outside of his -- the hospital that he's been held at, at his mother's home in Williamsburg.

Joining us now to discuss, legal analyst, Joey Jackson; and former Secret Service agent, Jonathan Wackrow.

Joey, first to you.

34 years aside, the last man, the last president to shoot an American the president and now he's looking at the possibility of freedom. How is that possible?

JACKSON: OK. Amazing to be even talking about this but what ends up happening, Kate and John, what they will look at, that is the judge, will look at is he now a danger to himself but, more importantly, a danger to the community? The psychiatrist and other people will testify and they will say, incrementally, he's been given more freedom and in being given more freedom he's been visiting his mom, staying with her for approximately 17 days a month, and he's -- he also has free time. He goes for walks twice a day for two hours, he has recreation time, which is, you know, he can do whatever he wants tore four-hour spans and how he has spent that time? Has he done it effectively or endangered anyone? If the answer is no, then perhaps he should be given more freedom. The prosecution will have a lot to say about that.

BERMAN: Jonathan, I want to ask you about this on two fronts. There was a Secret Service agent on the presidential detail, Timothy McCarthy, wounded badly, in the attack. First off, as a former agent yourself on the presidential detail, how do you feel if John Hinckley will be freer than he is now or how do you feel already with 17 days out there? And do you think that the agents guarding president now should have a feeling of safety?

JONATHAN WACKROW, FORMER SECRET SERVICE AGENT: Well, all Secret Service agents when they look at a protective intelligence case like this what they look for especially with Hinckley, his means, opportunity and intent to create harm towards, you know, the general public, one of our protecties or himself. As we move away from his mental health care, the intent of what his actions are going to be become more and more important. That's going to be a key factor as he moves away from, you know, monitoring his medication, how do we care for his mental illness. He had, you know -- was found not guilty by reason of insanity.

BOLDUAN: Right.

WACKROW: So he spent all of these years under mental health care. The further he moves away from Saint Elizabeth, the more questions arise.

BERMAN: I should say, he's not allowed as of now, as part of his freedom, he can't go anywhere near where the president or elected officials are.

BOLDUAN: Are you comfortable with the concept, someone shoots a president and allowed out ever?

WACKROW: No, I'm not comfortable with that at all. He definitely had a mental illness to begin with. That mental illness isn't cured. It's not he was cured of this mental illness. Medication is what is showing right now that he is, you know, stable. They're saying, to your point, he can come back into society. But what happens if he, you know, destabilizes by not taking his medication? Then what? Whose responsibility is John Hinckley outside of mental health care?

BOLDUAN: We're talking about it.

It's great to see you both. Thank you very much.

WACKROW: Thank you.

JACKSON: Thanks, John.

BOLDUAN: Thanks for being with us AT THIS HOUR.

[12:00:06] BERMAN: "LEGAL VIEW" with Ashleigh Banfield starts now.