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At This Hour

New Video of Freddie Gray's Arrest as Officers Give Statements; Interview with Rep. John Delaney on Killed U.S. Hostage; David Petraeus To Be Sentenced Today. Aired 11:30a-12p ET

Aired April 23, 2015 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[11:33:01] KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: AT THIS HOUR in Baltimore we have some significant new developments in the tragic case of the death of Freddie Gray. First, there's new video out of his arrest showing the 25-year-old not moving, his body half in, half out of the police van, legs dangling as officers pull him in. You see it highlighted right there.

Also, an attorney for Baltimore police union says that the officers involved had every right to chase Gray when he started running because he was in a high crime area.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: And we just learned that five of the six officers provided statements to the investigators on what happened that day.

Senior Washington correspondent Joe Johns is covering the story for us in Baltimore this morning. Joe, what's the latest?

JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: John, we do expect more demonstrations today including one by a group affiliated with the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. They are expected to announce that they want to do their own investigation into the death of Freddie Gray. We're also expecting a demonstration out here near city hall around noon, a prayer vigil tonight.

Last night demonstrations in the city were peaceful, angry, and spirited. We did see a bit of pushing and shoving at one demonstration which was outside the western district police station here in Baltimore City, but that pushing and shoving quickly dissipated.

We do know as far as the investigation is going on. As you said, five of the six police officers who have been suspended in this investigation have given statements to the police about what they know. One person apparently has not. It's not clear which of those officers has not given a statement or why. The police union here has added its voice to those individuals who have suggested that whatever happened to Freddie Gray happened inside the transport van after he was taken into custody. It's not clear what they're basing that on.

[11:35:00] However, we do know, going all the way back to 2005, there was at least one other case here in this city of an individual who was arrested actually for public urination, put inside a police van, suffered what was called a rough ride, and ended up with severe injuries; became a paraplegic as a result of that. A big lawsuit.

So the one other thing we're very much waiting for right now is an indication that the family of Freddie Gray that an independent autopsy has been conducted on the body. I did talk to their attorney yesterday. He told me that, in the event that happens, he'd like to see it immediately. And they are expecting to have the body released pretty soon. John and Michaela.

BERMAN: Interesting. There are interesting medical questions here but legal questions, too. Joe Johns, along those lines on legal questions here, the lawyers for the police union said that the police were justified in apprehending Freddie Gray. Now, lawyers for Freddie Gray's family said the only thing he was stopped for was running while black. Lawyers for the police union say that running in and of itself could be fair game to make that apprehension.

Joining us right now HLN legal analyst and defense attorney Joey Jackson; also with us, CNN legal analyst and former federal prosecutor Sunny Hostin. Sunny, explain to me why police in this case would not need probable cause to go after Freddie Gray just because he's running, but something called reasonable suspicion.

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, there are two different standards and probable cause is needed for an arrest. But reasonable suspicion is needed if you want to stop someone or chase someone. And I think actually the police could be on pretty firm ground here in the sense that, if you are in a high crime area, and someone starts running, those two together can give an officer -- can, not necessarily may -- but can give an officer reasonable suspicion to continue on a foot chase, and then stop, and then also frisk someone. A protective frisk. Because if someone has been running from you, and you stop them, you want to make sure that you are safe. And so I've got to tell you, the Supreme Court has made it pretty clear that those are two factors that can suffice for reasonable suspicion.

BOLDUAN: So then what is a high-crime area? Is there a definition? Is there a line? Is there a standard you have to meet to be in a high crime area in Maryland or anywhere?

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: You know what happens, Kate, the Supreme Court didn't so much define high crime. What they did a case Illinois versus Wardlow, a 2000 case where the Supreme Court examined facts just like this. What the Supreme Court said is that running away in an area that could be deemed to have a past history, drug use, history of violence of some sort is not in itself indicative of criminality but it could be suggestive of criminality. And in light of that, you could chase someone and apprehend them.

Now, that gives reasonable suspicion, the right to pat-frisk them, as Sunny mentions. The issue is, it gives -- for probable cause, that's what a basis of an arrest is. But I think the real question here is not so much whether the police had a right to chase him, or justified in chasing him. The real issue is how did he sustain such a catastrophic injury based upon that arrest -- you know, the apprehension and subsequent arrest. That's the problem.

HOSTIN: I used to live in Baltimore, in all fairness, so I do know this area. And it is a high crime area. But to Joey's point, which is a good one, how did he receive those injuries? Now, police officers are allowed to use what's called reasonable force when they're effectuating an arrest. What is reasonable? It depends on the severity of the crime; it depends on the person that they're arresting. There are a lot of factors.

BOLDUAN: Well, first and foremost, we need to know exactly what happened when.

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BOLDUAN: And that's not established yet.

HOSTIN: And that's the question. Because we have video showing after what appears to me to be someone that is in pain and someone whose legs don't to be functioning normally. But the bottom line is what happened during the arrest? That really is the question here.

BERMAN: And, Joey, the police union lawyer says something happened in that van. They're not saying something happened during the arrest. They're saying something happened in that van. If something did happen in that van, does it absolve the police of responsibility?

JACKSON: I don't think it absolves them at all. And we first certainly have to know who was in the van, and we don't know and I don't even want to speculate, John and Kate, as to when it happened. We don't know. You showed there before certain video and still pictures. The legs appear to be dangling. Does that mean, Kate, that he was injured at that point? Does that mean that there is video that we don't have that preceded his apprehension and arrest where something went wrong?

We really have to find out. Did it -- was it in the course of tackling him and bringing him under control, that that's when it happened? Were police in the van? Did they stop the van because there was some tussle?

BOLDUAN: And getting all of these answers starts with these statements from all of the police officers that are involved.

JACKSON: Absolutely.

BOLDUAN: And what comes from that. That's just the beginning of where we're going to be going. Joey, Sunny, great to see you guys. Thanks so much.

We're going to get a little break and be right back. Following breaking news AT THIS HOUR.

[11:40:04]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BERMAN: All right, our breaking news. Just a short time ago, the president announced two hostages, including American aid worker Warren Weinstein, were killed at a U.S. counter-terrorism operation that was targeting al Qaeda. Weinstein had been held hostage by al Qaeda since 2011. The 73-year-old was captured from where he was living in Lahore in Pakistan. He was a world renowned development expert.

BOLDUAN: Weinstein had a heart condition and severe asthma. His daughter Alisa had been pushing -- the whole family had been pushing the government to try and secure his release for years. She spoke to CNN shortly after. Remember, the U.S. government announced the prisoner swap and release of Sergeant Bowe Bergdahl. Here is what she said at the time.

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ALISA WEINSTEIN, DAUGHTER OF U.S. HOSTAGE KILLED: I want the administration to tell us what they are doing to bring my father home, to bring home the other American hostages. They've shown -- they've shown with this exchange that they can get this done. If they want to, they can do this. So I know that they can do it for us and they can do it for others as well. And, to me, they can't just pick and choose. They can't decide that it works to get one person out and then leave everybody else there

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BOLDUAN: That statement just all the more tragic when you think of now what the family is dealing with today.

[11:45:03] Joining us to discuss, to talk about this tragic loss, Congressman John Delaney of Maryland. The Weinsteins live in his district.

Congressman, thank you very much for joining us AT THIS HOUR. I want to just get your take, your reaction. You've been close to the family. You've been obviously working and following Warren Weinstein's capture and working to try to secure his release as well. Your reaction to the news announced by the president today.

REP. JOHN DELANEY (D), MARYLAND: Well, thanks for having me, Kate. Yes, I mean, it's just a sad and tragic and terrible day and my prayers and heart go out to the family. I spoke to Elaine last night. We have developed a very close relationship over the last several years as we've worked together to try to locate Warren. And then if we locate him, hopefully secure his release.

But it's just a terrible day. The whole Weinstein story and Warren's situation has been a tragedy from the beginning, and now to have it end with such a terrible outcome, it just breaks all of our hearts.

BERMAN: You wrote a lovely statement today that says you wish you had a chance to meet Warren. I think a lot of people feel that way today. He was a world renowned development expert.

But you have been close to the family. And it's a family that's got to be grieving right now, but a family that's also clearly frustrated. A statement put out by Elaine Weinstein today. She specifically thanked you and the senators from Maryland, also specific FBI officials. But she said, "Unfortunately, the assistance we received from other elements of the U.S. government was inconsistent and disappointing over the course of three and a half years." What's your sense, Congressman, of why she feels that way?

DELANEY: Well, I agree with Elaine. Elaine, in addition to being a loving wife, is a really smart person and full of very good insights. We've worked very closely on this. And seeing it firsthand, seeing our efforts as a nation, to locate these hostages, these American citizens, particularly people like Warren, who, as you said, was a deeply, deeply good man committed to serving other people. And the fact that we can't find these people, when you consider all the resources the United States government has, technological resource and all the other assets available to us, the fact that we can't find these hostages that are held in these places by terrorists is a tragedy. And it's why I believe our country let Warren down. Fundamentally, we let him down by not being able to find them.

And our efforts are inconsistent. We don't coordinate well. We don't bring to bear all of the great assets and expertise and talents that this country has. We have czars for a lot of things in our government. We don't have a hostage czar, for example. We don't have someone who wakes up every morning and can cut across all bureaucracy and can grab any resource at any agency and bring it to bear to help find these hostages. And then if we find them, we can work to get them home. Or, at a minimum, we can avoid pursuing military actions that result in their deaths, like we have here today.

So I think it was a very significant failure. Obviously, we have to investigate what happened around the specific events around January 14th, but a much broader analysis needs to be launched. And we're going to push it really hard, to make sure we're really pursuing, bringing these hostages home, as a top, an absolute top priority for the United States of America. I know that's what the American people want. They don't like more stories like Warren's. They want these people found and brought home.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely not. Absolutely. Congressman, I know you said you spoke to Elaine, Warren's wife, last night. Wanted to also get your thoughts on what she had said. But also there -- we did -- have heard so far that the United States does not have Warren's body. They don't have his body in custody. Was she given any indication or any expectation if she's going to be able to bury her husband? Have they been able to give her any detail or you detail how they were able to confirm that he was killed in this drone strike?

DELANEY: We don't have any -- obviously that's one of Elaine's top concerns right now, is to get that physical proof that we unfortunately all need as part of our kind of grieving process. And that's what's she's wrestling with right now, and it's really hard for her and it's hard for the family. So that's a priority of ours that we're all going to start working on. But there's been no -- at least not that I'm aware of, nor did Elaine, and we talked a little about this topic -- there's no specific indication that that's coming any time soon. So that's something we've all got to work on.

BERMAN: How is she doing?

DELANEY: And as far as how they know -- it's really hard. You have to put this in the context of the fact that she's been dealing with this for over three years. So just the strain and the emotional drain on the whole family. She's a remarkable woman, how strong she's been and how clear minded she's been about working to get Warren home, balanced by her love for him. But also that she's rational and smart and thinks things through and she's got a great family around her and they've really pulled together.

But it's incredibly hard. I mean, this is about as hard a moment, as we all know, as anyone goes through.

[11:50:02] I mean, to have last several years of his life spent at some probably cinder block, dirt floor, terrible, who knows what they were doing to him conditions -- their government -- her government not be able to find him, and then have this be the punctuating event for this terrible family trial is just an unspeakable horror that no American should go through. And that's why we all should be praying for her.

But again there's more hostages over there, too. And so this doesn't end with Warren, right? We have to redouble our efforts to make sure that the other hostages that are there, that we find them. Because if we find them, we start having options. We start having options to get them home. And I said, at a minimum, if we know where they are, we're not certainly going to pursue a military strike in a place that, you know, where they might be near that place.

So, really focusing on the intelligence efforts and making sure all the resources to bear, which, by the way, means our partner countries, countries that we claim to have really good relationships with and say they want to help us, they ought to be working on this stuff, too. So there's a lot of things to do. It's much longer conversation. But today it is about Elaine and the family and our grief for her and how sad we are. As I said, I've gotten to know the family, but at least in my relationship with them, there's been a big hole because I never got to meet Warren. And seeing his picture again today, it just really breaks my heart.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely. And it goes without saying, our hearts and prayers, while we as well have not met Elaine, have not met Warren, everyone's hearts and prayers go out to the family. Congressman, thank you so much for giving us time. And thanks so much for sharing your personal thoughts on this.

DELANEY: Kate, thanks for having me.

BOLDUAN: Really appreciate it.

BERMAN: It's a lot of work.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely. Ahead for us AT THIS HOUR, other big news that we're watching: From four-star general and the head of the CIA to now possible prison time. Today, David Petraeus learns the penalty that he is going to face for sharing secrets with his mistress.

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[11:55:30] BOLDUAN: We're about to find out how a man who became one of the nation's top and really most revered military leaders, and later led the CI,A how he will pay for sharing government secrets. David Petraeus is slated to be sentenced later today.

BERMAN: He is expected to plead guilty to mishandling classified information. He gave that information to his biographer, who was also his mistress, Paula Broadwell. Now, the deal he struck should keep the retired four-star general from any prison time. Our justice correspondent Pamela Brown covering this and, again, just a few hours away, Pamela.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: That's absolutely right and we're just hearing from a court official, John and Kate, that the sentencing today could last at least a couple of hours. We expect that retired four-star general to arrive for his sentencing in Charlotte, North Carolina, at 2:00 p.m. today.

As you point out, the former CIA director struck a deal with prosecutors and pleaded guilty to a single misdemeanor charge for providing top secret classified information with his biographer and former lover, Paula Broadwell. But court records show that Petraeus also lied multiple times to federal agents investigating that case. We know the Justice Department never charged him for that and critics have been quick to pounce on the department for not going after Petraeus more, saying that the former CIA director was given special treatment. We reached out to Petraeus' lawyer and he would not comment on that.

The merry (ph) general's fall from grace began with his affair with Broadwell. Just to put this into perspective, to give this backstory, this is happening while he was U.S. Commander in Afghanistan. Broadwell, a former major in the Army Reserves, was writing a book on Petraeus. And according to documents Patraues gave her, eight black books full of classified information regarding covert officers, war strategy, and intelligence capabilities, as well as other national defense information.

Kate and John, despite the fact that he's going to be sentenced today, we know the White House recently confirmed that he is still consulting the administration on ISIS and the Iraq strategy.

BOLDUAN: Which is pretty surprising when you think today he is also going to see what penalty and what sentence he's going to be facing. What are you hearing about what the government has suggested in terms of his sentence? There has been some criticism coming at them for that.

BROWN: Absolutely. Some are saying it's a double standard. The government is expected to ask for two years probation and a $40,000 fine with no jail time. Now, under this misdemeanor charge, the maximum penalty could be one year in prison and a $100,000 fine. So, this is significantly less of a punishment than I guess he could be facing, John and Kate.

BERMAN: And less than some attorneys and some critics say others have served for similar crimes. Pamela Brown, thanks so much for being with us. Really appreciate it.

BROWN: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Pamela, thanks so much. And we want to thank all of you for joining us AT THIS HOUR. A lot of breaking news today and that's going to continue throughout the day.

BERMAN: Yes, very busy day.

"LEGAL VIEW" with Ashleigh Banfield starts right after a short break.

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