Return to Transcripts main page

At This Hour

Hostage Family Paid Ransom; Terror Raids Across Italy; Indiana High School Stage Collapses; Does U.S. Need Hostage Czar? Aired 11- 11:30a ET

Aired April 24, 2015 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:13] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: His family tried to free him but the deal fell through. New details this morning on the American hostage killed by mistake in a U.S. drone strike.

Terror raids in Italy right now. Men who guarded Osama bin Laden, suspects targeting the Vatican. Has an active cell been neutralized?

And then a school stage filled with students just collapses. New details about what happened next and new questions about what went so wrong.

Hello, everyone. I'm John Berman. Kate is off today. We begin this morning with ransom. The surprising revelation that the family of Warren Weinstein paid his captors in 2012. Weinstein was one of the two hostages killed by mistake in a U.S. drone strike against al Qaeda in January. A source in contact with the kidnappers tells CNN his family paid ransom, but the terrorists demanded more. They wanted a prisoner exchange.

Also, new information this morning about the last time the family had so-called proof of life. Warren Weinstein's wife actually heard his voice over the phone.

Want to bring in CNN's chief national security correspondent Jim Sciutto. Jim, new details this morning. In some cases, new disturbing details.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, it is. The family making an attempt here to win Warren Weinstein's freedom after so long. Questions though about whether the money went to the right group. That's a fair question. Apparently an interlocutor was used, which is often the case here, and that raises questions about whether they're talking to the right people. You have a couple of degrees of separation there.

Bottom line is it didn't work. Whether the money got to the right people or not, there was a demand for more and this shows you the risks when you're dealing with this sort of thing and it's why the FBI, it's why the U.S. government, one of the reasons they're uncomfortable with it. And unfortunately in this case it didn't work out.

BERMAN: Jim, any more clarity this morning? We're about 24 hours exactly after this news went public. Any more clarity from the officials you've spoken to about what went wrong here? How they didn't know that Warren Weinstein and the Italian hostage were inside that al Qaeda compound?

SCIUTTO: This is the best explanation I've heard. Yes, they had hundreds of hours of surveillance video of that particular compound where two hostages were killed, as well as the American Ahmed Farouq, the al Qaeda leader. Hundreds of hours of surveillance video but in none of that video did they see the hostages. And that is understandable because the hostages were very high value, not just in dollar terms but in terms of leverage with the U.S., and they would be very well hidden. They might not ever not just leave the compound, but they might not ever go outside.

I spoke to David Rohde yesterday, who himself was held along the Afghan/Pakistan border, and he said in his own experience they did that. That they believe that if you looked up at the sky, that satellites had facial recognition technology. So the terrorists have even an outside sense of what U.S. capabilities are, so they keep them very close. So it is conceivable you could have been watching that compound and not know that those captives were inside.

But, listen, that does not minimize that this was really a spectacular intelligence failure, because not only did you not know there were hostages inside, you didn't know that there was an American al Qaeda leader in that compound. And then four days later, another strike where you believe there to be a senior al Qaeda leader but you don't know there's an American there either. So this is -- partly it shows the limitations of intelligence, because it's always difficult. But it shows an intelligence failure here. And that's why you have the CIA inspector general investigating.

BERMAN: And the White House even says it raises legitimate questions about the various programs at play here. Jim Sciutto, thank you so much.

We have more major terror related news this morning. Happening as we speak, terror raids across Italy with targets including associates of Osama bin Laden. Officials say that suspects were picked up on wiretaps, suspects who had planned apparently attacks on sites including the Vatican.

Nic Robertson following this story that, as we said, Nic, is developing as we speak.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It is. The Italians say this is the biggest ever of this type of operation that they've conducted. They're targeting 18 people for arrest. They say they're all Pakistanis, but the arrests are taking place in a number of different locations in Italy -- in central Italy, northern Italy and also on the Italian island of Sardinia.

This group, they say, was planning and helping finance attacks inside Pakistan. That one of those attacks was a very deadly attack on a marketplace in the border town of Peshawar in 2009.

[11:05:01] More than 100 people were killed. That the group was shipping money, physically and also through other means, sending it to terror groups inside Pakistan for attacks.

But what really worries the Italian authorities here is the discovery that this group was planning attacks inside Italy as well. One of those could have been against the Vatican. This is in early 2010. But there was another detail that the prosecutor talked about today. He said that they'd brought into -- the group had brought into Italy somebody he described as a kamikaze. I think our best understanding for that is a suicide bomber, because the description for the type of attack was for this suicide bomber, this person, to detonate explosives inside a crowded place and in the Vatican in March 2010. That would have been in the weeks, Lent leading up to Easter, that would have been potentially an even more crowded time than normal. John.

BERMAN: All right, Nic Robertson for us. Again, the details on this story still coming in. We'll have more in a little bit. Thanks, Nic.

We have some video this morning that really will just take your breath away. Watch this.

(VIDEO CLIP PLAYING)

BERMAN: It was just stunning. A stage collapsed at an Indiana high school. It injured about two dozen students. Simply terrifying. Bystanders rushed to help the students who were performing the last song in a concert when the platform, as you can see there again and again, it just gave way. All of the injured students were rushed to area hospitals.

I want to bring in Ryan Young who's been following this story for us this morning. Good morning, Ryan.

RYAN YOUNG, BLOOMBERG NEWS: Good morning. Very terrifying, John. In fact, the mother of one of the students was holding her cell phone filming that when it happened. And she said for the first few seconds, she was just in shock. And then everybody wanted to rush to the stage to see how far the students had fallen. It was a ten-foot drop because it was over that orchestra area. Some of the students were badly injured, but now we've learned that the girl who was in critical is now in stable condition. That's the best news.

But everyone's been watching this video because they're trying to figure out exactly what happened. How did this stage collapse? In fact, police are leading this investigation. The state police will be here this afternoon to start that investigation to figure out exactly what happened. But as you can imagine, this was scary for so many who were in the crowd.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I really couldn't see him and I assumed that he was in the pit when it happened. So it was certainly a huge relief when I saw that he was still standing, but still just a sick feeling of dread for all the parents, all the kids, that were impacted more directly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

YOUNG: They were singing that song "Don't Stop Believing" by Journey and obviously the group has not stopped believing. A lot of students here are even saying they can't wait for next year's performance. This was sold out performance. More than 900 people were here for this. So you can imagine the rush to the stage. Everyone saying that the administration handled this correctly. But now the big question is what exactly happened and why did the stage collapse? John?

BERMAN: Yes, indeed. They will look at that over the next few days, I am sure. Ryan Young, thanks so much.

There are serious concerns this morning in Chile. A spectacular volcanic eruption. The Calbuco volcano shooting smoke plumes and ash more than six miles into the sky. It has blown its top twice in just the last 24 hours and Chileans are bracing for a third possible and even more powerful eruption. The experts say that more activity could come as soon as today. About 4, 400 people are being evacuated from that region and of course the smoke and the ash there could affect air travel over a much wider area.

A high profile appearance this morning for Angelina Jolie on a vital subject. She as the United Nations discussing the Syrian refugee crisis. Jolie is a special envoy for the U.S. on refugee issues. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANGELINA JOLIE, U.N. SPECIAL ENVOY FOR REFUGEE ISSUES: Any one of the Syrians I have met would speak more eloquently about the conflict than I ever could. Nearly 4 million Syrian refugees are victims of a conflict they have no part in. Yet they are stigmatized, unwanted, and regarded as a burden.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Now, of course, last weekend we saw the tragic situation with refugees fleeing North Africa. More than 800 were killed when the boat that they were on capsized.

So today is more than just Friday for Eric Holder. It's his last Friday as the nation's Attorney General. He's expected to leave office about two hours from now and take one last walk through the Justice Department that he has led for the last six-plus years. Holder can move on now that the Senate has confirmed successor Loretta Lynch after a five-month delay. She is set to be sworn in on Monday.

Big announcement by Pepsi. It's dropping the artificial sweetener called aspartame from its diet Pepsi drinks.

[11:10:05] The chemical has been under scrutiny for some time. The company says diet cola drinkers demanded the change. Pepsi says they listened. They will now use a new sweetener blend beginning in August. Company officials say it will still be zero calories.

Ahead for us AT THIS HOUR, to negotiate with terrorists or not? New questions at the forefront after the revelation that the family of Warren Weinstein paid his kidnappers for his freedom. That was a failed attempt to free him.

Hillary Clinton facing new scrutiny over foreign donations to the Clinton Foundation. We'll tell you how her campaign is now firing back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: Does the United States need to do more, work harder, and be smarter to free American hostages? The tragic news that Warren Weinstein was killed by mistake in a U.S. drone strike, it's raising serious questions about whether the U.S. missed chances to win his release long ago.

On this show, the Weinstein's congressman, Jim Delaney, clearly frustrated, called for a hostage czar.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JIM DELANEY (D), MARYLAND: We don't have someone who wakes up every morning and can cut across all bureaucracy and can grab any resource at any agency and bring it to bear to help find these hostages.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: I called him Jim; his name's John Delaney. Now we also have word from a source that the Weinstein family itself paid ransom to try to free Warren Weinstein.

Joining me to talk about this, Phil Mudd, CNN counterterrorism analyst, former CIA counterterrorism official.

[11:15:02] Phil, I want to start with the issue of ransom. When you hear word that the family, the family of this man, itself paid ransom to try to win his release, what does that say to you?

PHILIP MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: Look, there's a difficult choice here if you're a government official and I was there.

[11:15:00]

JON BERMAN,AT THIS HOUR: --CIA Counterterrorism Official. Phil, I want to start with the issue of ransom. When you hear word that the family, the family of this man, itself, paid ransom to try to win his release, what does that say to you?

PHILIP MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: Look, there's a difficult choice here if your a government official and I was there. The choice is the Federal law says you can't provide material support to a terror group. But, let me tell you something, if you think, and in my judgment this won't happen, if you think the Department of Justice is going to walk into a family that's grieving and say we're going to bring charges against you for supplying money to a group. I can't imagine that happening.

BERMAN: Forget charges. What about the idea the government itself needs to do more? You heard Congressman Delaney calling for a hostage czar here. We heard from Weinstein's daughter, way back when Bowe Bergdahl was released in a hostage swap, she was criticizing what the government is doing here. Let's listen to what she said.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

ALISA WEINSTEIN, DAUGHTER OF VICTIM: It's true that Sergeant Bergdahl is a soldier and deserves the respect of anyone that serves in the military, but my father is just as deserving a freedom as Sergeant Bergdahl. To me, they can't just pick and choose, They can't decide that it works to get one person out and then leave everybody else there.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BERMAN: U.S. chose to trade Taliban people in Guantanamo Bay, to trade suspected terrorists for Bowe Bergdahl. No such trade here for Warren Weinstein. Is that inconsistent?

MUDD: I don't think it is. I think it raises a question, I don't think its inconsistent because through centuries, thousand of years, you have a tradition of trading on the battlefield. Bergdahl was a battlefield individual who's captured on the battlefield. The Taliban guys at Guantanamo were battlefield. This fellow-I agree there's a legitimate question. He's a U.S. government aid worker. Should we bring him home? That's a different to my mind--

BERMAN: This guy was helping, you know, the Pakistanis with economic development. This guy worked in the Peace Corps. Your saying that's not worth it? It's worth saying a guy whose now charged with essentially, you know, aiding the enemy?

MUDD, No, what I'm saying is there's a difference between trading soldier for soldier and saying we're going to basic question here that's legitimate. The question is not whether he's the same as Bergdahl. The question is when you have an American citizen who's sent overseas on official business, how far do you go to bring them home? Fair question.

BERMAN: Fair question and does the U.S. need to go further?

MUDD: I think we need. I would say there's a difference between providing material support, that is providing money, and saying do we have a conversation with groups we consider to be terror groups? I'm not talking about a negotiation. I'm saying, would we even consider it legitimate to talk to the Taliban or Al-Qaeda? And I would say yes, sure. BERMAN: Phil, I want to ask about drone strikes in general because all

of these people were killed in a what's called a signature strike. That is, the U.S. says it wasn't targeting specific individuals. It had reason to believe that, in near certainty reason to believe, that there were terrorists inside these compounds. Not specific terrorists but terrorists in general. These were called signature strikes. Are these valuable or inherently risky? These mistakes can happen.

MUDD: They're not valuable. They're critical. We've eliminated a generation of Al-Qaeda and not just leadership, but the second and third tier, by which you refer to correctly as signature strikes. Back before these strikes, you typically would identify an individual, U.S. Government Intelligence would identify someone by name and say, he's legitimate as a target.

You've seen these drone operations explode under the Obama Administration because signature strikes aren't looking at an individual. They may look at a collection of say 20, 30 people. That-and I'm looking at this through the eyes of the adversary because I listen to them talk and I listen to detainees talk. That's devastating and the reason I know that is because they say that. They hate these things.

BERMAN: (INAUDIBLE) Don't give it up now just because of the awful tragedy that happened. Phil Mudd, thanks so much for being here. We're going to see you again because we have a lot more to talk about.

There is a new call for change in police leadership in Baltimore. And new theories about how Freddie Gray was fatally injured while in custody. New details ahead.

[ 11:19:03] (COMMERICAL BERAK)

BERMAN: New this morning, protesters in Baltimore calling for a change in leadership at the police department. Some clashed with police overnight. Two were arrested. And it's after days of peaceful protests surrounding the death of Freddie Gray. Representatives of the Gray family met with the police commissioner yesterday, but still no answers as to how the 25 year old ended up with a severed spine after his arrest, dying a week later. His funeral is now set for Monday. Senior Washington Correspondent, Joe Johns joins us now live from Baltimore. Joe, what's the latest?

JOE JOHNS, SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: John, an interdenominational alliance of ministers calling for resignation or the termination of the police commissioner here, Anthony Bates. They're also calling for an apology from the Fraternal Order of Police for likening some of the demonstrators to a lynch mob. We do know that at least one of the prominent ministers in this city, the reverenced-the pastor of The Empowerment Temple AME Church is expected to meet today with the mayor as the city looks ahead to the demonstrations on the weekend, as well as the funeral on Monday of Freddie Gray.

We also know that an alliance group of activists is expected to call for the Governor of the state of Maryland to institute changes through executive action after problems and issues have arisen from the death of Freddie Gray. Now one of the problems that people have been talking about most in this city right now is the issue of seat belts on the transport vans. It appears at least from a quote that was made by the police commissioner that Freddie Gray was not strapped in in any way in the transport van.

There has been concerns in this city about another case dating back to 2005, in which an individual was severely injured, a spinal injury leading to both paraplegia and death, resulting in a huge lawsuit. Sounds strikingly similar to what could have occurred in this case. The flip side of that is people who look at the video of Freddie Gray, as he was taken to the transport van, suggest it's very possible that his legs, even his spine, were injured at that time. So, we all await conclusive information from any investigation and any results that might be released. The police commissioner has said he'd like to see those results done at least a week from today. John?

[11:25:04] BERMAN: Yes, by May 1st we could get answers. Joe Johns in Baltimore. Thanks so much. Ahead for us AT THIS HOUR, Warren Weinstein, the man. We're going to get an inside look at the remarkable life of this American hostage who we just learned yesterday was killed. We'll speak to two people who knew him well.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: So much has been said over the last 24 hours about the death of Warren Weinstein. He was the 73-year-old aid worker killed by mistake in a U.S. drone strike. That was his death. But, we want to focus on his life. It was a remarkable one. What drove this grandfather to shuna (sp) relax life of retirement, to keep on working to help people all over the world, including most recently in Pakistan.

Joining me is Marsha Carter. She was a colleague and friend to Warren Weinstein for about 40 years. Thank you so much for joining us and 40 years seems fitting here because he devoted more than 40 years, his entire lifetime, to helping people all around the world.

[11:29:48] MARSHA CARTER, FRIEND OF VICTIM: Yes, he did. He--I'm glad we're focusing on his life. He was full of life and people responded to that. He had an exuberance that was almost overwhelming sometimes.