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Friends Remember American Killed in Drone Strike; Drone Killing of Weinstein Raises Questions on American Intelligence; Terror Attack on Vatican Thwarted; "New York Times" Says Hillary Clinton Should Clear Up Questions on Clinton Foundation Donations. Aired 11:30-12p ET

Aired April 24, 2015 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:30:00] MARCIA CARTER, COLLEAGUE & FRIEND OF WARREN WEINSTEIN: He had a terrific ability with languages and we used to joke that my husband and I, that Warren could get on a bus in Liberia and by the time he got off the bus, he would be speaking the language of the bus driver, who would have invited Warren to dinner. And it turned out that just about something like that had actually happened to Warren so he was just an astonishing person. He cared deeply about other people. A colleague told me about an episode in one of the former Belgian colonies, I believe it was Rwanda when Warren was interviewing people about human rights issues and one of his contacts was a little nervous because he saw Warren was taking notes. He said if anybody in the government sees this, I'll be in trouble. Warren showed him what he was doing. This person was speaking in French and Warren was taking the notes down in one of the languages in the Pakistan and just the amazing facility of doing that and also recognizing the concern that other people would have about these notes that would be meaningless to anybody who picked them up in that country. So all of his life he behaved in that way and as I said, people responded to it. He loved his family. His wife. His daughters. He barely knew the grandchildren unfortunately but one of the reasons he was working was trying to build a financial foundation for them knowing that in the best of times he wouldn't be there for their entire lives. He just adored his life.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: He adored his family. He also seemed to adore his work, which as you say so eloquently was to help, was to help people around the world. A Peace Corps in Africa and most recently in Pakistan where we understand he went to great ends to dress the way people do in the local areas there and to speak the local language. I wonder if you can tell us the importance to him of the work he was doing in this dangerous part of the world.

CARTER: Well, as I said, all of it was he had originally worked for the U.S. Agency for International Development and then after he left that work, I think he found the bureaucracy a little constraining sometimes. He joined a business that served as a contractor for USAID and operated in a slightly different fashion but in both cases dedicated to the development of better economic future for other peoples and that's what he was doing in Pakistan. He was preparing to leave later that year, but in his last e-mail to me, which I found the other day, he said that he was looking forward to being at home and he would like to just stay at home and be with his family for quite a while and maybe not even leave the House for a little while. In the meantime, he went out and mixed with people and he tried to appreciate their food. He had a great love of different cuisines and loved cooking them. His life was just about appreciating all of the wonderful cultures and the way that people live all around the world and, as I said, people really responded to that. The messages on his Facebook page now reflect that. He's admired and also respected for what he did.

BERMAN: What a life trying to help people.

(CROSSTALK)

CARTER: I'll miss him tremendously.

BERMAN: I think a lot of people will miss him tremendously.

Marcia Carter, thank you so much. An affront that he was captured and held in the very country he was trying so badly to help.

Marcia, thanks so much.

Ahead for us AT THIS HOUR, the accidental killing of those hostages. Does it expose a weakness in U.S. intelligence? Why didn't officials know where Warren Weinstein was inside that compound? Why didn't they know where he was in the world, frankly, and how did they lose track of him?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:37:55] BERMAN: New questions about how a U.S. drone targeting al Qaeda ends up killing a kidnapped American. The White House said it had no idea that Warren Weinstein was being held inside the targeted al Qaeda compound, but perhaps more troubling, word this morning that the U.S. government had no idea where he was at all.

That reporting comes from "Bloomberg View" columnist and CNN analyst, Josh Rogin. Also joining us today, CNN counterterrorism analyst, Phil Mudd, former CIA counterterrorism official, joining us once again.

Josh, you're reporting this morning is that really, frankly, the U.S. government had no idea where Warren Weinstein was.

JOSH ROGIN, COLUMNIST, BLOOMBERG VIEW & CNN ANALYST: Exactly. I spent the day yesterday talking to many of the senior counterterrorism and diplomatic officials involved in the search for Warren Weinstein over the last three years and they said the same thing. They said that when he was taken they thought he was taken by a group, the Haqqani network, and transferred quickly to the leadership of al Qaeda, which claimed to have him shortly thereafter and they didn't have a bead on him. They said this was six months after the Osama bin Laden raid and Pakistani military and intelligence services weren't in a cooperative move and the trail went cold. For three years they had no idea where to locate him. That's really two implications for the story. One is that it probably is true. It's absolutely true that this was an accident. There was really no way they could have known he was at this location that they bombed in January. At the same time it outlines the problem with what a lot of people are now looking at. The signature strike is we often don't have on the ground intelligence and therefore we don't know exactly who is at these locations before we strike them.

BERMAN: Phil Mudd, you have been on the ground. You have been in this fight against terrorists. Are you surprised that the U.S. Had no idea where this guy was especially considering there had been some contact at least with intermediaries and there had been phone conversations and videos?

PHIL MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: You have to understand the nature of this adversary. We're not talking about al Qaeda. We're talking about al Qaeda pockets that aren't necessarily coordinating with each other. You heard a reference to the Haqqani network of Pakistanis that has held hostages. And there's Afghan Taliban and Pakistani Taliban. In some of those cases if you think about the range of intelligence, think about the bin Laden operation, for example, you're going to have enough fidelity on the target to say there's a named individual in there we can go after. In other cases, you'll say he sees a collection of al Qaeda guys in my intelligence and that target isn't good enough. You have to think about this as a range of intelligence, sometimes precise, sometimes signature of an adversary.

[11:40:28] BERMAN: Josh, Mudd here has been telling me that the signature program that you're talking about isn't just necessary. Phil calls it critical to the battle against terror here. The White House made a point of saying it raises legitimate questions, the mistake we learned about yesterday raises legitimate questions about the drone program. They're asking the questions today and tomorrow. Based on your reporting, do you think they'll make changes to this program that Phil Mudd and others deem as critical?

ROGIN: There will be several reviews to see if changes need to be made. The problem with the assertions of intelligence and administration officials that this is a critical program is that most of the details have remained shrouded in secrecy for many years. We know that although these attacks have taken a lot of terrorists off the battlefield, hundreds of civilians have been killed. Eight Americans killed by drone strikes and only one was actually targeted. Two were probably innocent. I think what we're going to see based on the calls from leaders in both parties yesterday after this tragic mistake is a call for more transparency and more accountability. Let's remember here that President Obama called for an end to the signature strikes to match with the end of U.S. combat operations in Afghanistan but as we saw yesterday, that was never really enforced. So are the costs worth it for the benefits of these strikes? That's a good-faith debate. It's one we can't have unless we know more about how these decisions are made and where the procedure went wrong this time because this time it definitely failed.

BERMAN: Phil, you have 10 seconds for a quick last word. You are shaking your head no.

MUDD: No. This is simple. If you have an adversary on the ground and you've identified and that adversary is plotting against New York or Washington or against U.S. troops in Afghanistan, that's a go/no go. Are you going to pull the trigger or not? If you want to avoid pulling the trigger because you're going to say we can't certify that the 20 people on the compound are all guaranteed al Qaeda guys, I'm going to say get out of the fight.

(CROSSTALK)

ROGIN: Well, President Obama is the one who said we need near certainty that there won't be civilian casualties. That's what he said. If you were to hold him to his word, there needs to be more transparency.

BERMAN: That's the debate today and will be the debate in Washington in the coming days.

Josh Rogin, Phil Mudd, thank you for being with us.

MUDD: Thank you.

ROGIN: Thank you.

BERMAN: Ahead for us, still on the subject of terror, was an attack on the Vatican thwarted? More than a dozen suspects arrested in an anti-terror operation in Italy, some with direct ties to Osama bin Laden. We have details next.

But first, if you know someone doing outstanding work to help people -- this is nice to hear -- we want to know about them.

Anderson Cooper explains.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, A.C. 360: Tonight, we're recognizing some incredible acts of compassion and kindness. "CNN Heroes" is looking for everyday people who are changing the world. How do we find these extraordinary people? We find them with your help. You can nominate someone right now at CNNheroes.com.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No one is going to do anything about it, I will.

COOPER: Maybe your hero is protecting the environment.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I got it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah, you got it.

COOPER: Helping those with disabilities get more out of life.

(CHEERING)

COOPER: Giving hope to children born into poverty.

(SHOUTING)

COOPER: Or opportunity through education. Or maybe they found a unique way to solve a problem wherever they live.

Whatever their cause, nominating a "CNN Hero" is easier than ever. First, go to CNNheroes.com and click nominate. We ask for some basic information about your nominee and you, but most important, we want to know what makes your hero extraordinary.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you ready?

(SHOUTING)

COOPER: How is their work changing lives for the better?

It's really important to write from your heart because it is your words that will make your hero's story stand out.

After you told us about your hero, click "submit." You'll see this message that confirms we received it. And now you can nominate a hero from any device. Just go to CNNheroes.com from your laptop, your tablet or your Smartphone.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, this is great. Yes.

(APPLAUSE)

COOPER: Being recognized as a "CNN Hero" can help the person you admire continue their life changing work. It all starts with you. So nominate someone deserving today.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:48:38] BERMAN: Happening now, a vast anti-terror operation under way now in Italy. Officials say they are going after suspects associated with al Qaeda who had discussed a range of targets apparently including the Vatican. The operation could result in as many as 18 arrests and some members of this alleged terror cell even had direct contact with Osama bin Laden.

Let's bring in CNN counterterrorism analyst and author of "Agent Storm, My Life in al Qaeda," Paul Cruickshank.

Paul, the Italians call this one of the most important raids in Italy. Who are these guys they're after?

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: They are treating this seriously. This was a Pakistani terrorist cell, people who lived in different parts of Italy, including Sardinia, mainly involved in terrorism in Pakistan. The group was actually partly responsible for that terrible attack in October of 2009 when Hillary Clinton was visiting Pakistan that killed more than 100 people. They were also sending funds to Pakistan to help the terrorist networks over there.

But at a certain point in March of 2010, five years ago, the Italian police overheard what they thought was some kind of plan to possibly attack the Vatican. It seemed to be a very aspirational plot. The Italians are not being categorical about this. These kinds of wire taps and conversations are very, very difficult to interpret, especially when people perhaps are speaking in Pashtu, you have to get translators. And back in 2009, for example, Italian police thought they had thwarted a plot to attack the Charles De Gaulle Airport in Paris when they overheard a conversation in which two militants were talking about attacking the De Gaulle, and years later, I spoke to a defense lawyer and turned out they were actually watching a soccer match. So attack the Gull, attack the goal, shows these conversations can be difficult to interpret.

[11:50:45] BERMAN: Pardon me for the pause here when assessing the word from the Italian officials here. Paul, we hear that two of the guys they're after are apparently body guards or at least associates of Osama bin Laden. How many people like that are there now still on the run and what are they doing?

CRUICKSHANK: We don't know the answer to that and it's not clear what the link was between two of these individuals and Osama bin Laden. Was it a direct link? Were they bodyguards? The Italians are not being very categorical about that, but certainly very concerning that people with links to bin Laden would still be free and operational in Europe. The al Qaeda threat has not gone away. They still have the presence in the Afghanistan/Pakistan border region and now they have a big presence in Syria, with al Nusra, the terrorist group, being the new al Qaeda central.

BERMAN: We know they haven't gone away because we see the effect of these drone strikes and the death of Weinstein yesterday.

Paul Cruickshank, thanks so much for being with us. Appreciate it.

Ahead for us, big money and national politics. "New York Times" says Hillary Clinton needs to tell people where the money is coming from at the Clinton Foundation. We'll talk about that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:50:39] BERMAN: "Hillary Clinton needs to come clean," that is the message in "The New York Times" editorial today. The paper wants full disclosure about the money given to the Clinton Foundation, the global Philanthropic organization her husband founded. The paper writes, "People need to know where foreign money is coming from to dispel any notion of a conflict of interest." They write, "No one should know better than the former Senator and first lady that they" -- these accusations -- "will fester if straightforward answers are not offered to the public."

Want to talk about this because a lot of smoke out there. Joining us, is senior political reporter, Nia Malika Henderson; and CNN's political director, David Chilian.

David, let me start with you.

There is this reporting in "The New York Times," the "Wall Street Journal," "Washington Post," a new book that looks at the Clinton cash and all of it is raising questions about whether this cash to the Clinton Foundation influenced decisions that were made at the State Department while Hillary Clinton was in charge. What does all of this smoke, all of these charge, what effect do you think they have on her right now and her candidacy?

DAVID CHILIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: John, step back for a moment. We are only, I don't know, about 12 days into her candidacy and a long way from stops at Chipotle or the Scooby van. This is not the second week of a presidential campaign that the Clinton folks would have wanted.

And you are right. There are all these stories out there. I'm not sure that voters are dialed in this early to every twist and turn of individual donors to the Clinton Foundation or not, but the broader point that editorial pa page of "The New York times" is making lingers and hangs over the Clinton campaign. She is eventually going to have to address the specifics of this. They've started to do that through spokesmen by taking on specific charges in the stories you're referring to, John, but I think in the totality, the package is hey, are the Clintons playing by a different set of rules, above board on this, did she use her office in any way to benefit and line the pockets of the Clintons themselves or help out the Clinton Foundation, and I think that those broad strokes are what Hillary Clinton is going to have to address herself.

BERMAN: You know, Nia, you look at, as David was saying, the campaign is starting to do things in press leases, point by point, rebuttals of things in the books and articles. I want to read you a statement from the Clinton campaign spokesman, Brian Fallon, who says, "No one has produced a shred of evidence supporting the theory that Hillary Clinton ever took action as secretary of state to support the interests of donors to the Clinton Foundation."

Now, you know, I think people have covered Clinton for years have a tendency to read every word they put out on paper and listen to every word out loud. They say, "No one has produced a shred of evidence supporting the theory that Hillary Clinton used her influence in such a way." That's almost -- isn't that like taunting people saying go out and find more evidence here. Why don't they say things, this never happened, there was no influence peddling here, the money never made a difference at all.

NIA MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: Yeah, I think you're saying they had a lot, a number of different strategies, one of which is there are no specifics here, maybe there's a smoking gun but no fire anywhere, right. On the other thing, is to say this is part of a vast right wing conspiracy. That argument is made more difficult because of the "New York times" stories, because of the "Washington post" stories as well and in the aggregate this makes it difficult for the Clinton campaign and Hillary Clinton herself to make the argument that she's a champion for the little guy. That's what she has wanted to frame herself in the new rollout, humbler, kinder, gentler Hillary Clinton and this idea that perhaps there is the perception that she is using this Clinton Foundation, which has done a lot of good and they'll argue that, too, could be involved in this sort of a pay-for- play scheme. You've had Mitt Romney go so far to call it bribery. Those kinds of stories out there, really I think are going to make it hard for her to make this other argument which they want to make, that she's the champion of the little guy. They've got to figure this out. Again, it's the second week into the campaign so they've got a long way to address this stuff.

BERMAN: David Chalian, we have about 15 seconds left. Where is Bill Clinton? He's the explainer-in-chief. Can't he explain this?

CHALIAN: They have him on ice at the moment.

(LAUGHTER)

The one comment that we have had from Bill Clinton on this is, hey, the foundation does a lot of good around the world. I think that's going his role to talk about the good that the foundation does, but I think it's going to be up to the Clinton campaign proper to actually refute the charges.

BERMAN: David Chalian and Nia Malika, great to have you with us on this Friday. Thanks, guys.

CHALIAN: Thank you.

[11:55:59] BERMAN: Thank you all for being with us AT THIS HOUR.

"Legal View" begins, with Randi Kaye today, right now.