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Macy's Cuts Ties with Donald Trump; Interview with Lonnie Randolph, President of the South Carolina NAACP. Aired 11:30a-12:00p ET.

Aired July 01, 2015 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:30:00] BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. It does sound like a lot especially when you put it in this context. President Obama for this fund-raising quarter for this opening quarter, about $41 million. So that just goes to show you that you see Hillary Clinton really putting up a number even bigger than that. This is, we understand a record for the for the opening quarter of a presidential campaign. This is the second fund-raising quarter of the year. But this is Hillary Clinton's first because she got into this race in Mid-April with the idea that she would get a start as close to the beginning of this fund-raising quarter as possible. These are dollars that are to be spent on the primary. So a cap on donations of $2,700. But this is, this is huge. $45 million, we have learned, from her campaign in this fund-raising quarter. And if you think you haven't seen a whole lot of Hillary Clinton, she's, she's been outdoing some public events John and Kate but she's been fund-raising a lot, about 50 fund-raisers that she has attended all over the U.S., from California to Minnesota to Indiana to Missouri to D.C. and New York. So she's been very busy fund-raising. But her campaign really trying to put to rest some of these rumors that we had heard about a lot of difficulty in raising money because of a lack of enthusiasm that may come from the fact that she's so far ahead of the rest of the very limited democratic pack.

BERMAN: And of course it is an interesting move coming out first like this. This way she gets to put out the big number. And if say, Jeb Bush comes out of the next week or two with a number bigger than $45 million, she won't have to look like she's second best.

KEILAR: Yes. That's right. And this is - I think at this point the campaign feels pretty confident about how good their number is. And that was really - this is part of it for them. This is them coming out and saying, we have a big number, try to beat us, essentially. And they're just trying to show that they have this strength, especially after months, as I mentioned - really months before she declared there were so many stories about how the super - the biggest super pack that was supporting her was really having a hard time, shaking the tree of donors and getting money. So this - the campaign certainly trying to put some of those concerns to rest here.

BOLDUAN: I'd say so. Brianna Keilar, thanks so much. The money is just rolling in. These numbers, every election cycle, just more and more, it's really amazing. BERMAN: And they're about to get a lot bigger, so.

BOLDUAN: So true.

BERMAN: Stay tuned.

BOLDUAN: Yes. Stay tuned. Coming up for us, also in stay tuned land, coming up for us, the two inmates who escaped from prison, they made it all the way to a different manhole in a dry run the night before their great escape. We're going to speak with a former inmate at Clinton Correctional who knew David Sweat. We're also bring on a former corrections officer who became an inmate himself.

BERMAN: Also, Donald Trump, you might not always believe what he says. Now you might not believe where he sits in the polls. Sliding a $500 million lawsuit to the top. But he did just suffer a loss. One of his key business partners just dumped him - or he dumped them. The truth is out there.

[11:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLDUAN: Breaking news in Donald Trump land. Macy's is now the latest to cut ties with Donald Trump saying they're now going to be pulling merchandise in his name off their store shelves because of recent references he's made to Mexican immigrants calling some of them rapists and drug dealers. This is part of the statement that Macy's put out. This - they say, that we have no tolerance for discrimination in any form. Also saying that, in light of the statements made by Donald Trump, which are inconsistent with Macy's values, they are going to discontinuing our business relationship with Mr. Donald Trump.

BERMAN: So Macy's says they're dumping Donald Trump.

BOLDUAN: Exactly.

BERMAN: But Donald Trump says, no, no, no, no. I'm dumping Macy's. And he goes on to say, clearly both NBC which done the universe thing in Celebrity Jeopardy, clearly NBC and Macy's support illegal immigration which is totally detrimental to the fabric of our great country. This whole thing goes back to his announcement statements where he made comments about undocumented immigrants coming into the United States, he called these Mexicans immigrants, he called them rapists.

BOLDUAN: Rapist.

BERMAN: Although he also said some of them are OK. Joining us to talk about this, both the business side and the legal side, we're joined by Early Start anchor and CNN's Chief Business Correspondent, Christine Romans and CNN HLM Legal Analyst Joey Jackson. Christine Romans, let's talk about Macy's.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Wow. Macy's - we just asked them if they would like to clarify -

BOLDUAN: Who dumped who?

ROMANS: - who dumped who. If they dumped him or he dumped them? And they said they're standing by their original statement. And their original statement is, that in light of those comments from Donald Trump, they don't reflect the core values of Macy's and they don't reflect the, reflect the, the tolerance and diversities that Macy's does and so, they are ending their relationship phasing his shirts and ties from their stores. He has had that relationship with them since 2004. Donald trump quickly, quickly with his own statement saying, oh, you know, I didn't make very much money from that anyway. And I never really liked that it was made in China. The manufacturing in China, in fact, I don't like that China illegally manipulates its currency. So I'm going to make that a big core of my, of my campaign. So he's turning this dumping into a means to...

BERMAN: I tried this, I tried stuff in high school. And it didn't work for me. I don't know if it's going to work for Donald Trump.

ROMANS: I'm pretty sure she dumped you. But that's another story altogether. But this is a thing, this is one thing immediately people are saying so he could posit from what he now says, legal manipulation of currency in China before. But suddenly now, now that, now that there's scrutiny of his positions on immigration, now suddenly has get scrutinized the currencies.

BOLDUAN: I, I want to get to this other - the other thing which is a lawsuit, just in one second joy, but on the business side of this, I found this interesting because when this popped up, it reminded us that back in 2012, there was another push to have Trump's stuff taken from Macy's.

ROMANS: That's right.

BOLDUAN: And, and at that time, Macy's defended its stance saying, this is a free society. The merchandise on our shelves are not political statements. We don't always agree with the things that folks are saying. But this is a free society. And now...

BERMAN: Did you say when he was questioning the president about his citizenship.

BOLDUAN: Exactly.

ROMANS: But not the pattern. Now there's a pattern of behavior, quite frankly. And there are other big brand name company, Univision is one of them, NBC is another one who very quickly made a stand on this. So Macy's found itself in a position where they couldn't back down. Plus, they are trying to sell - look, if you are a businessperson and you're talking about any particular demographic, you're talking about millennial and you're talking about the fact that this country is more and more diverse and tolerant, and the kinds of statements that Donald Trump made, if you're a businessperson looking at your market to sell to, you don't want to be associated with that.

BOLDUAN: Awesome. [11:40:00] BERMAN: Joey Jackson, Donald Trump is suing Univision

for $500 million.

JOEY JACKSON, LEGAL ANALYST: A lot of money.

BERMAN: Which is a lot of money considering that his whole contract with Univision to air the Ms. USA and Ms. Universe was only what, for only like $13.5 million.

JACKSON: That's right.

BERMAN: How on earth then do you come up with $500 million in a lawsuit?

JACKSON: All right. Because what he's saying is that they're impairing his ability to make revenue. Now, the contract itself as you mentioned for $13 million and change had to do with licensing fees to actually, you know, put out the contest - excuse me, put out the pageant. However, if you look the money to be made, he's making the argument that that's money that would be lost revenue as to him making a number of claims, breach of contract, breach of warranty and covenants of fair dealing, intentional interference with his business relationship with NBC and of course asking for attorney fees. And don't forget the defamation claim that he's leveling against the Univision president for making some statements against him, which of course when you make statements predicated upon opinion, we all can have opinions as long as they're not factually untrue.

BOLDUAN: So, so, so you know, there, there seems to - there could be a little bit of this, that a lawsuit is just maybe a P.R. stunt, I'm just going to say it.

JACKSON: Throw it out there.

BOLDUAN: But is there - I'm just going to throw it out there. Is - does he have a chance?

JACKSON: All right.

BOLDUAN: What do you think?

JACKSON: I, I, I looked at the lawsuit. And here's what he's claiming. He's making the claim that according to the plain language of the actual contract that existed that this was not a basis in which Univision could actually pull you know, what they did here. And so ultimately he's relying upon the contract itself which has a limited basis on which they could pull out.

Now, the issue becomes, to what extent if you're my partner and we're doing things together should I be compelled to engage in activities with you when you clearly are doing things that are disparaging to my audience, when you're engaging in activities which impair my value and my brand? Should the court recognize that? And to the extent that you disparage my audience should I now be compelled to enter into this contract and continue it with you. That's what the court is going to... BERMAN: And a cynic might say that he's doing it for publicity,

doing this to you know, increase his position in the polls, to drive up his publicity. Christine Romans, I want to see your take here because some skeptics have said that Donald Trump is running for president in the first place to build his brand. To get his name out there...

ROMANS: And he is hurting his brand.

BERMAN: It depends if he wants his brand to be though. Doesn't it? And if he wants more business partnerships with retail stores, you know, in broadcast stations, maybe he's in trouble. But I don't know, I mean, if he wants to be a politician...

ROMANS: You know, he said, if he starts a new line of ties and shirt, he will make sure they are made in America. I have no doubt he will find another partner and he will have to make an America brand. I mean, this is a guy who gets things done and knows how to do the deals. But the irony here is the last time when he kept everyone on whether he was going to run. When he said, he wasn't going to run, right? He talked about Celebrity Apprentice. He was going to focus on his brand and his show. Well, now here he's given up the brand stuff to run for President. But he's hurting - don't you think he is hurting his brand in the process? I mean, when you see - hear the words, Donald Trump, you're only hearing you know, the disparaging remarks he made that his big partners are dumping him.

JACKSON: And of course, they're looking for a new Celebrity Apprentice who could say, you're fired. And so the issue then becomes to what extent if he was looking to run for president to build his brand is he actually impairing it.

BOLDUAN: The poll is building is in the polls. He is building in the polls and that is interesting.

BERMAN: He is in number two in the new CNN poll nationally and second in the New Quinnipiac poll in Iowa. So from a political standpoint...

JACKSON: Let's see what it says next week.

BOLDUAN: We said it earlier, stay tuned. And I think that has to apply here. It's great to have you. Thank you. A lot to work through with Donald Trump tonight. But today and be sure to watch CNN tonight because Donald Trump will talk to Don Lemon about this whole shebang and his presidential race, his presidential run, 10:00 P.M. eastern right here on CNN.

BERMAN: Yes. Don't miss that.

BOLDUAN: Yes. Coming up for us, we have breaking developments in the investigation into the prison breakout. David Sweat not only talking but he's revealing more details about the botched getaway plan and the dry run that he and Richard Matt pulled off the night before.

BERMAN: Plus, we have new information on an African-American church in the south that went up in flames. Of course happening just two weeks after Charleston and this church, this new church that burned down in South Carolina was once torched by the KKK. We are now hearing the likely

cause. So stay with us.

[11:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: All right. New information in to CNN about a fire at an historic African-American church in South Carolina. Senior FBI officials tell CNN that lightning may have been the cause of the fire at the Mt. Zion Ame church.

BOLDUAN: A CNN weather analysis shows that there were four lightning strikes in the immediate vicinity of the church last night. Now, this marks the sixth Black church to go up in flames in the south in - across the south in recent weeks in the aftermath of the shooting at the church in Charleston. Now, Lonnie Randolph is the president for the South Carolina Chapter of the NACCP and he is joining us right now. Mr. Randolph, thank you so much for joining us.

Now, we hear that investigators -

LONNIE RANDOLPH, PRESIDENT, SOUTH CAROLINA CHAPTER OF THE NAACP: Good morning.

BOLDUAN: Good morning. The investigator say that they are going to leaving no stone unturned in terms of finally figuring out what happened in this situation. Preliminarily, we're hearing from sources though that it is a lightning strike that caused the fire at this church. Are you satisfied with that?

RANDOLPH: Well, we are listening to the reports and we will get all the material. One of the things that our state law enforcement division and the other law enforcement agencies have done in South Carolina is that we're often updated - very often updated and they contact us very frequently from the U.S. Attorney's office to our state law enforcement authority.

So we'll get enough reports and have our committees in this organization that also work and investigate material and give us a report back. I have no reason to doubt them. They have been honest and straightforward thus far. And the weather at that time was where it could be part of the question.

BERMAN: Obviously, you have to investigate this all the way through. But this is just one of at least six now African-American churches that have burned down in just the last two weeks. At least two of those have been due to arson. What are you telling churches now in the south?

RANDOLPH: Well, it - well, there actually have been seven in the last seven days. That's a pretty good average, if we continued this rate and I truly hope that we won't, next year this time, we will have 365 days of church burnings. I don't expect that to happen.

[11:50:00] Again, we are telling churches to be very cautious, to be very observant, to contact law enforcement, to contact the NAACP office here in Columbia at 803-754-4584 for any information that will assist us in getting information to law enforcement to do the proper investigation. And if a person is found to be in the gray area we want that person off the streets.

BOLDUAN: Now, now, tell us, you say you're recommended take precautions. What are those precautions? Especially in the aftermath, in the wake of the horrific shooting in Charleston. What are you telling - what you are suggesting to churches to do about security, changes to their protocols and the precautions you're suggesting?

RANDOLPH: Well, security is one example. And be observant of persons that traditionally this young man may have been in the area in the past but he had never attended this church before and, yes, be suspicious. We have to be suspicious. And not just as a result of what happened on the 17th of June.

Unfortunately, as Dr. King so eloquently stated, churches aren't safe places, especially when you consider the race factor of churches. 11:00 on Sunday morning is still the most segregated hour of the week. So we still have a lot of work to do of the partnership and the unity effort of bringing people in churches together across the state and across the community.

BERMAN: Lonnie Randolph, thanks so much for being with us. Wish you the best in the next few days and weeks. Appreciate it.

RANDOLPH: Thank you.

BERMAN: Coming up next for us, a former inmate at Clinton Correctional who knew David Sweat joins us live to react to everything the captured fugitive is now revealing from his hospital bed and, boy, it's a lot. From the getaway to the dry run to the guard who allegedly helped them.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLDUAN: New this morning, fascinating new details about the prison break at Clinton Correctional. David Sweat speaking from his hospital bed says he and fellow inmate Richard Matt, they made a dry run the night before their daring escape. He says the pair climbed through a maze of tunnels and pipes before popping out of a manhole. But they saw too many houses around so they decided to head back to the facility and try it again the next night, escaping through a different manhole that time.

BERMAN: Now, prison worker Joyce Mitchell was supposed to meet them there, drive them Mexico. As we know, she never showed up. Sweat also now says that he was the mastermind of the entire plan. Fascinating new details. Joining us to discuss, this Gary Hayward, a former corrections officers at Rykers who became an inmate after selling drug in prison. We'll talk about that dichotomy. Also former Clinton Correctional inmate Eric Jensen who knew both Sweat and Richard Matt behind bars. Gentleman, thank you so much for being with us. [11:55:00] And Gary, I want to start with you. And you have a

complicated or interesting you know, dichotomy here. You were a guard and you were also an inmate to get to in a second, the first one, let me ask you about this new information we have about the fact that these inmates staged a dry run as they tried to break out. They might have been climbing around in those walls and tunnels for months and months without being detected.

And my question to you as a guard, how does a guard not see that? How can guys be climbing around in those walls night after night for months and months without being detected. Is this a case of guys not doing their jobs? Guards missing signs or deliberately ignoring things that are going on?

GARY HEYWARD, FORMER CORRECTIONS OFFICER & INMATE: It could be a combination of everything that you mentioned. It could be comfortability, meaning that sometimes these relationships between guards and inmate, guards get real comfortable. If an inmate hasn't ever been in trouble or posed to be a problem inmate they get lax with that inmate and don't fully carry out their duties as in searching the cells and the inmate per say. Because this is one of my good inmates, per say. And if they're on the honor roll or honor segment of the jail, that means they're good inmates and I really don't have to be as thorough with them and the inmate knows that and took advantage of that. Especially being able to go out and come back in without the guards checking.

BOLDUAN: Took advantage of a lot of people. And vulnerabilities. The reason we're getting these details, Eric, is because David Sweat is talking.

BERMAN: A lot.

BOLDUAN: People say he's singing like a bird from his hospital bed. You knew him inside. How much do you trust him? How much do you - how much do you think this could be BS?

ERIC JENSEN, FORMER INMATE, CLINTON CORRECTIONAL FACILITY: I mean, it could be BS. I mean, he could be singing like a canary because he wants everybody to think of him as this great mastermind that escaped from a maximum security prison that made worldwide headlines and he wants this story to be told how he wants it to be told. David was a very articulate man. He was smart. So it might be what he's trying to do.

BERMAN: And not going to change the outcome though very much.

JENSEN: No, no.

BERMAN: He still has a world of hurt coming his way.

BOLDUAN: That's true.

BERMAN: Gary, let's get to you, this dichotomy. You were, you were a, a corrections officer, you were a guard and you were dealing drugs. HEYWARD: Yes, sir.

BERMAN: Inside you know, inside to inmate there is. One of the questions we've been asking day after day here is how do inmates come to use the guards? As a guard, your one job is keep them in there and to keep everything yet you end up being part of a larger crime. How does that happen?

HEYWARD: Once, once again, no, as I wrote in my book "Corruptions Officer" it's the familiarization. Meaning getting comfortable on the job. As a corrections officer, when you first walk inside the job. You're going to be approached. Inmates will ask for all kind of small thing. Big things. As a CO, there's a saying that if you bring in an inmate a stick of gum you'll bring them a gun which you know, I didn't believe but in one chapter in my book an inmate did shoot another inmate inside the jail and that was my first rude awakening that contraband is being bring inside there. Now when a person walks inside the jail, he doesn't go in there and says, I'm going to be corrupt in my career.

BOLDUAN: Right.

HEYWARD: Temptation for me I was put in predicament, other officers have that predicaments. But all over the world, you hear that contraband is being bring in. In certain situations that officers place them that they decide OK, I can make money from in here to help my situation for whatever reason. That's one other reason.

BOLDUAN: Well, and it started with cigarettes for you and then moved to cocaine, and, and other thing and cell phones are one of the biggest contraband that you're talking about. The reason is a lot of this matters Eric is because this is what the FBI is looking into.

JENSEN: Right.

BOLDUAN: If there were a drug ring that these guys was part of inside Clinton that could have involved employees at the facility. You were there.

JENSEN: The drugs inside Clinton are so prevalent, that you can go to any section of the outside yard, it's called the north yard in Clinton, and you can go to any section of it, you can get heroin, you can get crack, you can get cocaine, you can go over here and you can even get pain pills.

BOLDUAN: What they do - was it known?

BERMAN: Did you see this? Did you?

JENSEN: Oh, it's well known.

BOLDUAN: Did you buy drugs?

JENSEN: No. No, I didn't use drugs, if I did I would have lost my good time because they do urine analysis.

BOLDUAN: Were the guards involved?

JENSEN: Well, it's been said that guards are involved.

BERMAN: It's been said, but did you see it yourself?

JENSEN: No, I've never seen it firsthand knowledge because in order to do that you have to interact with the guards and it's usually, you're the one that's buying the drugs or binging the drugs like having your family bring the guard to drugs to bring to you. And I wasn't involved in smuggling or anything like that while I was in there.

HEYWARD: But that's not always the case. When I was being corrupt as an officer I ran something like a little organization with inmates whom I trusted, whom knew everybody and when I bring the drugs in they distribute it and bring the money back to me. So...

BOLDUAN: And you served your time.

HEYWARD: I put it all in the my book. I put it everything out to you.

BERMAN: Gary, Eric, thanks for both of your insight. Appreciate it.

BOLDUAN: Fascinating, thank you both. And thank you all for joining us At This Hour. It's been a busy day.

BERMAN: It sure has. "Legal View" with Brianna Keilar today, starts right now.