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At This Hour

Trump Blames Media, Rivals, McCain Answers Trump; POW, Author Leo Thorsness Talks Trump, McCain; Bill Cosby Admitted Drugging Women in Deposition; Chattanooga Shooting, Depressed, on Drugs, Angry at U.S. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired July 20, 2015 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:00] KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Now Trump is blaming the media and his rivals. McCain is answering Trump.

Bill Cosby used drugs to seduce women. This time, that's not an allegation but an admission straight from Bill Cosby's mouth. Do these revelations about his sexual encounters then impact the legal cases against him now?

And just in, we're getting word that writings have been discovered showing the Chattanooga shooter was not only suicidal but also angry at the United States. Does this help investigators get any closer to a motive?

Hello, everyone. I'm Kate Bolduan. John is off today.

In case you needed reminding, Senator John McCain is not running for president this cycle, but he is suddenly an unwitting lightning rod in the race it seems. Donald Trump today is refusing to back down from comments he made over the weekend about the Arizona Senator and former prisoner of war. Here is how it began, to give you the full briefing of it. Pollster Frank Luntz was asking Trump about his other controversial comments that he made about illegal immigrants. Well, Trump and McCain, like many others, have disagreed on that issue, and things just snowballed from there. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FRANK LUNTZ, POLLSTER: Referring to people as rapists, referring to John McCain, a war hero, five and a half years as a POW, and you call him a dummy. Is that appropriate in running for president?

DONALD TRUMP, (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE & CEO, TRUMP GROUP: OK. You got to let me speak though, Frank, because you interrupt all the time, OK?

(LAUGHTER)

I know him too well, that's the problem.

Let's take John McCain. I'm in Phoenix. We have a meeting that's going to have 500 people at the Biltmore Hotel. We get a call from the hotel, it's turmoil. Thousands and thousands of people are showing up, three, four days before, they're pitching tents on the hotel grass. The hotel says we can't handle this. Going to destroy the hotel. We move it to the convention center. We have 15,000 people. The biggest one ever. Bigger than Bernie Sanders, bigger than -- 15,000 people showed up to hear me speak. Bigger than anybody and everybody knows it. A beautiful day with incredible people that were wonderful, great Americans. I will tell you. John McCain goes, "Oh, boy, Trump makes my life difficult, he had 15,000 crazies show up, crazies." He called them all crazy. I said they weren't crazy. They were great Americans. These people, if you would have seen these people -- I know what a crazy is. I know all about crazies. These weren't crazy.

(LAUGHTER)

So he insulted me and he insulted everybody in that room and I said, somebody should run against John McCain, who has been, you know, in my opinion, not so hot.

(APPLAUSE)

TRUMP: And I supported him. I supported him for president. I raised $1 million for him. It's a lot of money. I supported him. He lost. He let us down. But, you know, he lost. So I never liked him as much after that because I don't like losers.

(LAUGHTER)

But, Frank, let me get to it. He hit me --

(CROSSTALK)

LUNTZ: He's a war hero.

TRUMP: He's not a war hero.

LUNTZ: Five and a half.

TRUMP: He's a war hero -- he's a war hero because he was captured. I like people who weren't captured, I hate to tell you.

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: He's a war hero because he was captured. OK? You can have -- and I believe perhaps he's a war hero but right now he said some very bad things about a lot of people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: So Trump has been famously generous with his barbs, but this one has really touched a nerve drawing condemnation from both parties. Trump isn't apologizing and says all he's trying to do is draw attention to the plight of veterans.

Nia-Malika Henderson is joining us with more on that. We wanted to give the full context. It doesn't always clarify exactly

what Trump's meaning is when you show more of what he's saying but what more now in the reaction and the backlash.

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: That's right. And he has blamed the media for slicing his comments and not playing the whole thing there. It's good we did play the whole thing but he see there, he sort of goes back and forth between whether or not he's a war hero or not. It seems like in the end he finally says, well, maybe he is a war hero perhaps.

But then he has taken to the air waves again and blanketing the news media this morning with his own comments talking about John McCain, and I think we've got a clip here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP (voice-over): I believe that I will do far more for veterans than John McCain has done for many, many years with all talk, no action. He's on television all the time talking, talking, nothing gets done. You look at what's happening to our veterans, they're being decimated, OK? So I will do far more for veterans than anybody. I'll be able to build them new hospitals. I will be able to build them care centers. I will be able to help the veterans. John McCain has failed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HENDERSON: And that was from Sunday, and we have today Donald Trump has an op-ed in "USA Today" where he basically says the same thing, doubles down. Says he will be better for veterans than John McCain.

And John McCain who hadn't responded over the last couple days finally came out this morning and here is what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN, (R), ARIZONA: When Mr. Trump said that he refers to be with people who are not captured, well, the great honor of my life was to serve in the company of heroes. I'm not a hero, but those who were my senior ranking officers, people like Colonel Bud Day, Congressional Medal of Honor winner, and those who inspired us to do things that we otherwise wouldn't have been capable of doing, those are the people that I think he owes an apology to.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[11:05:42] HENDERSON: And there you have it. I mean, this has been a real back and forth over these last days. Lots of people saying this is the beginning of the end for Donald Trump. We'll have to wait and see. Polls, of course, up until now have shown him riding high among Republican voters. He was there in Iowa. In that crowd you heard some people maybe kind of boo his comments about John McCain. But we'll have to see what he's going to do going forward. So far, he's not backing down. BOLDUAN: Obviously, we need to see what happens in the polls

following remarks like this. Maybe not have any change at all. We will see.

Nia, thank you so much. Nia laying out exactly the back and forth.

Now let's get some very important and unique perspective on these comments. Retired Air Force colonel and Medal of Honor recipient, Leo Thorsness, was held with John McCain at the Hanoi Hilton and faced torture at that time. He wrote a book about his six years in captivity, called "Surviving Hell: A POW's Journey." He is joining us right now.

Thank you for joining us and thank you for your service, of course.

I want to get your reaction to Donald Trump but first I think it's important, if you would, to remind our viewers what it was like for you in that prison cell with John McCain for all those years, what you went through.

COL. LEO THORSNESS, AIR FORCE, RETIRED & AUTHOR: The six-year period of time we were there, the first three years were brutal. The last three were mostly boring. But the first three years a lot of solitary, a lot of torture. People died in torture. I have been where I wish I could die just about, but to say that -- I think Donald Trump's comment was just -- it was just a big insult to all of us shot down, captured, those killed in Vietnam or any war in defense of your country. They say go to war and we salute three times and yes, sir, and that was the most highly defended air space in the world around Hanoi with guns, MIGs, and my being shot down, we were two out of three. To say you're sort of a failure if you get shot down, Trump wants people who weren't shot down, but we gave so much, and I wish Donald Trump could have spent one day in torture and his views would be different, but, you know, he's a bright guy and if you measured success by dollars, Americans do that sometimes, certainly he's successful, but there's a lot of ways to measure it, and one way to measure it is you don't -- yourself down by tearing other people down and that's what he's doing. He calls other candidates stupid and dumb and John McCain -- I wish he would -- he's a bright guy but he could do so much better and I wish he weren't so boisterous and arrogant and self-serving.

BOLDUAN: Colonel, you called it a big insult what he said about prisoners of war, and that one line really is what you quoted. He says I like people who weren't captured. I hate to tell you, is how he put it. What would you like to say to Donald Trump today?

THORSNESS: I would say, Donald Trump, you know, you're a smart guy. Just -- why don't you just get on the line, you can say that was a mistake. Anybody who answered the call, put themselves in changer, be they shot down or injured or killed, but we have given so much in the military and people who support the military which is all America, the good ones, to keep our country free and just an insult to all of White House put our life on the line and some gave their life. I am so disappointed that he said -- I wish he would just come straight out and say that was a dumb thing I said, it was a mistake and I apologize.

BOLDUAN: John McCain was out this morning, and he said that he knows he's fair game. He says because he's a public figure. He says he does not think he himself is owed an apology but other prisoners of war, other veterans are owed an apology. Do you want an apology from Donald Trump?

THORSNESS: I'm like John. There's people more heroic than I, but John -- everybody who spent time in prison, everybody who was tortured, we didn't condemn our country. We hang in there years of torture which is so brutal and everybody was a POW and came home OK and those who died in torture, we're all heroes. I say we but I don't mean to drag, but John is a hero, everybody who served there is a hero and Trump owes us an apology and I wish he would do it. It would make him a bigger man.

[11:10:03] BOLDUAN: What does it feel like as a prisoner of war, as a veteran, to be drug into a political debate some 40 years after your service?

THORSNESS: It's unfortunate. It was wrong, and I keep repeating myself but this should not have been an issue. It was just Donald Trump, he talks a lot and he's bombastic. He says things people like, Congress is bad and politicians are bad, but at some point he's going to have to decide if I win or what would I do? Get specific rather than just condemning others. He has to say what he's going to do and one of the things he's got to do is prove he's a pro-veteran guy and stop insulting all of us who raised our hand and said in defense of our country I'll go, maybe have to give my life to do it. He left a bad impression, and he's smarter than that. I wish he would retract it.

BOLDUAN: Colonel Leo Thorsness, thank you for your time and thank you again for your service.

THORSNESS: Thanks for having me on. Best to you.

BOLDUAN: Thank you so much. Thank you.

BOLDUAN: So just a short time ago, presidential hopeful Jeb Bush briefly voiced his support for John McCain on this whole issue. Bush was delivering his policy speech at Florida State University. Listen here to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEB BUSH, (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE & FORMER FLORIDA GOVERNOR: The Pentagon's acquisition system is so swamped with regulations, only a handful of giant defense contractors can actually compete for the larger contracts. That's why I support initiatives by the respected chairman of the Senate and House Armed Services Committees, John McCain, a real hero, by the way.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP) BOLDUAN: And that statement getting one of the biggest applause lines of that whole speech.

Coming up for us, Bill Cosby's stunning admission. He used drugs to seduce women. But he doesn't stop there. Why this could change everything about the allegations against him.

Plus, a friend says something changed the Chattanooga shooter during a trip overseas. We now know why he went to Jordan and the reasons involve drugs and depression.

And it's a website that helps you cheat on your spouse, but now hackers are threatening to reveal the secrets of millions of users and cheaters. Hear why. We'll be back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:15:38] BOLDUAN: New this morning, stunning revelations from Bill Cosby about his affairs with women and the drugs that he gave them. In a deposition that CNN obtained from a civil lawsuit 10 years ago, Cosby admits to giving Quaaludes and having sex with a young woman he was mentoring, Andrea Constand. She is just one of two dozen women now who have publicly accused the comedian of sexual assault.

One of them is also former supermodel, Janice Dickinson, who spoke to CNN after these new revelations came out. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JANICE DICKINSON, FORMER SUPERMODEL ACCUSES BILL COSBY OF SEXUAL ASSAULT: I keep reliving the same sick, the same sick feeling, you know, in my soul and my body. The memories are still there, and every time I think about it and I hear new information, I still -- it still takes me back to that actual night like it happened yesterday. Back in 1982 and it sickens me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Cosby also testified in the 1970s he received seven prescriptions for Quaaludes from a doctor in Los Angeles with the intention of giving them to young women he wanted to have sex with.

Let's discuss this. CNN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney, Joey Jackson, is here, along with human behavior expert, psychologist, Wendy Walsh.

Great to see both of you.

A lot has come out in this deposition that we're learning and it's not even the full reading of it.

Joey, let me read part of it that has stuck out to a lot of folks and I want to get your take on it. Constand's attorney said, "She believed she was not in a position to consent to intercourse after you gave her the drug. Do you believe that is correct?" Cosby replied, "I don't know." How does this impact the accusations against -- the cases against him,

Joey?

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, good morning, Kate.

Good morning, Wendy.

You know, there are two courts here obviously, one is the court of public opinion and that certainly matters when you're in front of the public for as long as he has been, particularly when you have the persona that he has, and then, of course, there's that other court, and that's in a judicial forum where there's a judge and a jury. As it relates to the court of public opinion, it's devastating, it's damning, and I think so for two reasons really, the first of which, whenever there's a disparate relationship, employee/employer, mentor/mentee, teacher/student, that in and of itself should give it pause in terms of treating the relationship and in terms of mentoring and monitoring over someone and doing it in a respectful way. When you introduce drugs into the equation, that makes it a further disparate relationship to -- it suggests he was doing things that were really untoward and inappropriate. In terms of the court of law, however, Kate, that raises a different issue and that raises the issue of the protections that exist there and, of course, that we can talk about the statute of limitations. From a civil perspective whenever you file a lawsuit and you're looking for money damages, the statute of limitations applies and in criminal prosecutions they apply. I think he's largely immune in that forum.

#; One thing a lot of folks are picking up on and talking about is how -- I saw it described as casual indifference and also flippant in how he seemed in talking about during this deposition these sexual encounters and these relationships, as these women would call it, these assaults, against him. What's your read on that?

WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST & HUMAN BEHAVIORAL EXPERT: Well, you know, I think he was being very cavalier. And interestingly enough, I think there was a population of men in this era who didn't understand female psycho sexuality. The fact that women in one study showed some women would prefer if given the opportunity to be beaten rather than raped because in our evolutionary past the rape is not just that one time event. It could mean carrying a man's seed for 18 years or more and raising it. So rape to women is a violation, a psychological injury, a physiological injury, and potentially a life threatening injury. But I think a lot of men don't understand that, and what we're seeing now is so many women in law and the media starting to educate men through stories like this, bringing them to the light, and I think that there are men in that era who thought that way. Like, oh, you know, she got around anyway, what's one more? He was just a little relaxed with the drugs. Who knows how they rationalized it but I don't think they understood the depth of injury.

[11:20:25] BOLDUAN: Wendy, with that in mind, you heard from Janice Dickinson recalling it made her feel sick hearing this revelation from the deposition coming out. What does this mean for the women who for years were told they were liars, that they were false, that their accusations were totally unfounded? WALSH: Can you imagine? Their injuries continued for years, their

feelings weren't valid, didn't matter. Can you imagine that? That's why we're seeing the amount of vocalization, the amount of rage come forward. These women have suffered for a lifetime having to maintain a silence. I put out to those people he didn't act alone. There were accomplices. There were potentially we hear agents, bellmen, pr people, people who got women to him, took women away when they were throwing up or passed out. Who are these people and will they come out and start talking about what happened?

BOLDUAN: Wendy Walsh, Joey Jackson, thank you so much.

Of course, we always do have to note that Bill Cosby has never been criminally charged and he has denied all wrongdoing despite the mounting accusations.

Thanks, guys, so much.

LEMON: Thank you, Kate. Have a nice day.

BOLDUAN: Coming up for us -- you too. Coming up for us, brand new information just in about the Chattanooga shooter. Writings have been discovered from him that could get investigators closer to a motive. That's going to be coming up next.

Plus, it's a hack with a wild twist of blackmail. Private customer information stolen from a popular cheating website. The small fee that could lead to a major embarrassment for millions.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:25:25] BOLDUAN: New information just in on the man who allegedly shot and killed four Marines and a Navy sailor last week. There are their pictures right there. Investigators have recovered writings by Mohammad Abdulazeez and in some of those writings he discusses dissatisfaction with USA policy in the war on terror. Other parts of the writings are said to be consistent with someone having suicidal thoughts. All of it dating back more than a year now. The FBI though is also looking into a text that Abdulazeez sent to a friend just before the attack. It included an Islamic verse that says this, "Whoever shows enmity to a friend of mine, then I have declared war against him." A source also says Abdulazeez's family has told investigators that the 24-year-old suffered from manic depressive bipolar disease and he was abusing party drugs and marijuana and his family sent him to Jordan to get away from those Chattanooga friends who they say were a bad influence on him.

A lot to discuss here as everyone searches for a motive in this heinous crime. CNN national security analyst, Juliette Kayyem, is here, who also served as a former assistant secretary of Homeland Security.

Juliette, it's always great to have you. This new revelation that's out this morning that investigators are looking into these writings, the way it's described by our great reporters, including Evan Perez, is that it includes "dissatisfaction of U.S. policy in the war on terror and other anti-U.S. sentiment." Just your reaction to that?

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: This is the odd thing about this case is that nothing seems to be rising to the level of, oh, he's the one who is going to kill for Marines and a Navy sailor, dissatisfied writings, thoughts of suicide. So what's going on in the investigation now is all these pieces are being put together to see if there is, to be honest, a eureka moment, a moment that describes guy going from clearly mental health disorders that are well documented to a radicalization that would then target the Marines and the petty officer, and we're not there yet. I mean, in other words, none of this to me is rising to the level of, oh, this was going to be the guy as compared to other is attackers where there was just a long list of evidence saying, oh, he clearly is a guy who is going to try to kill people.

BOLDUAN: And other cases there seems to be a clear at least online trail or profile that they've left that showed red flags, if nothing else. And then there's this aspect -- the family has been pretty forthcoming with investigators about the trouble that they've had with Mohammad, with that 24-year-old. They say he changed, something changed in him when he went over to Jordan. They sent him there to get away from bad influences. Do you think the answers to the motive lie in Jordan?

KAYYEM: I actually don't because it's now five or six days later since the investigation started. Jordan is an ally in our counterterrorism efforts. I have to believe that all information about his visits there is being shared, and this -- what the family said today makes sense to me. It's very common in immigrant communities that if the child becomes, you know, into drugs and American sentiment, that they send them back to families that are more conservative. It clearly did not work, but we've seen nothing to suggest out of Jordan that he was trained, that he became more radicalized. It seems like he returned and was just simply disaffected with these mental health problems, and so this is just -- it is a horrific case for the victims and their families, of course, but it's also a case in which I'm not sure we're going to be able to gain so many lessons to stop it the next time because he really is -- seems to have been self motivated in ways that is unlike other ISIS cases.

BOLDUAN: You're hearing a lot of authorities, a lot of lawmakers talking about this is what the fear has been with these lone-wolf attacks if there isn't a further connection that is discovered. Regardless, heinous nonetheless.

Juliette, it's great to see you. Thanks so much.

KAYYEM: Thank you.

[11:29:39] BOLDUAN: Coming up for us, it's a hack that could become very embarrassing, to say the least, for millions of customers. Personal information now stolen from the popular cheating website, Ashley Madison. The threat, shut down or cheaters will go public.

Plus this, a black woman dies in a holding cell. Police say it was suicide. Her family says there's no way. I'll speak with the prosecutor in charge of this case about why it is now being investigated as a possible homicide and the latest on that investigation.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)