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At This Hour

New Clues on MH340; Zimbabwe Wants to Extradite Lion Killing Dentist; New Vaccine Could Stop Ebola. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired July 31, 2015 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:00] KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: And the campus officer accused of murder is right now free on bail as new revelations emerge about the history of the officers who corroborated his story.

Hello, everyone. I'm Kate Bolduan.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: I'm John Berman.

Breaking news in the hunt for missing Malaysia Airlines flight 370. New pictures just into CNN. The piece of airplane debris found on Reunion Island has just been loaded into crates at the airport. You're looking at these pictures we just got right there, treating it very carefully. The wing component is being prepped for an 11 hour flight to France where it will be analyzed. Once there, it could take just a short time to confirm that it does in fact come from MH370.

Also just a short time ago, Malaysia confirmed the part most certainly belongs to a Boeing 777, which is the same type of plane as MH370, the flight that disappeared last year with 239 people on board.

BOLDUAN: Meantime, a U.S. intelligence report suggests it's likely that someone in the cockpit deliberately flew the plane off course before it vanished.

We're covering all the angles this morning. Let's get first to Nima Elbagir on Reunion Island where the piece of airplane debris is getting ready right now to be shipped off to France.

Nima, what's the very latest there?

NIMA ELBAGIR, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Kate. Well, you saw how delicately they were treating it. Anything and everything on that debris could be crucial to helping establish where it's come from, how it got here, and, of course, that will help them establish whether this is, indeed, from MH370. Even the barnacles on it, they're trying to keep some of them alive because the water in the tissue of those barnacles will give a sense of the metal deposits in the waters where this debris was first floating. Really delicate, delicate operation. But we understand from French prosecutors that this evening the plane will be departing. Tomorrow morning, France time, it will arrive where it will be taken to the investigative center just outside of Toulouse. This is the same center that was part of the investigation into the 2009 Air France crash. So these are definitely among the leading investigators in the world. And hopefully, they will take the families one step closer to finally having some answers -- Kate?

BERMAN: Nima, this is the most looked at piece of debris on earth right now. You caught up with the man who found it, a beach comber who found it on the shore. What did you hear from him?

ELBAGIR: Yes, this is a man called Johnny, who is part of the beach cleanup crews, and he actually is instrumental in the debris being in the state -- in the good state it's in right now. He's instrumental in much of that evidence surviving because when the crews first saw this washed up on the shore, their instinct was to drag it out and start cleaning it up, cleaning the barnacles, destroying much of the surface area at first contact. And Johnny told us he suddenly looked at us and thought, I think I know what this is, please stop that. He got a little closer and he realized at the time that this was from a plane, and his thought process, as he described it to us, is if it's from a plane, it must be from a crash, and if it's from a crash that means people died and we need to respect this because I would want, if it was someone I loved, that people would treat anything that could lead to any sense of what happened to me being treated with respect. He was back out on that beach the next day helping with the search efforts -- John?

BERMAN: His efforts so remarkable and so important for so many people right now.

Nima Elbagir on Reunion Island, thank you for your work.

Want to go to France where that wing part is being sent.

Our Frederik Pleitgen joins us live near Toulouse.

Fred, what happens once that piece arrives?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, John. There's going to be extensive testing. One of the things we do know is even though some Malaysian politicians are saying they're pretty certain this is a piece of a 777, the folks here are going to want forensic proof that is, indeed, the case. Not only that, they're also going to want to prove that it is, indeed, a piece of MH370, if, indeed, that is what it is.

What they're going to do first of all when the piece of the wreckage arrives is they're going to look at it very carefully, take it apart, be looking at any sort of numbers that are printed on the inside or anywhere on that piece of debris and see whether it matches the aircraft model and also whether it matches MH370 in particular, and then one of the other things they do here as well is metal test. They have some sophisticated equipment here. Some of the most sophisticated in all of Europe and they're going to be testing not only the metal itself but also the paint, of course, to see if it matches, the kind of paint that was used on MH370. Also check and see how long it was probably in the water, how far it might have drifted. One of the things we have to keep in mind in all of this is even though this possible piece of MH370 has now resurfaced, it's unclear where the plane is. And they hope they might be able to discern some sort of clues as well. [11:05:09] One of the other things, John, that this lab is actually

specialized in is also determining through scientific analysis whether or not the plane broke apart after possibly some sort of exPLOsion in midair or whether or not the part was ripped off upon impact on water. Now, it's unclear whether or not this part, this piece of wreckage specifically will be able to tell them that, whether it's big enough, whether there are remnants of whatever might have happened on it, enough for them to be able to tell that, but this is certainly something this laboratory is specialized in as well -- John?

BOLDUAN: Fascinating focus of this investigation right now, just part of it.

Fredrick, thank you so much.

So exactly what clues, as Fred was getting to, what clues will that wing part or flaperon provide? And also what about that assessment by the U.S. intelligence agencies suggesting that someone in the cockpit deliberately flew the plane off course?

For some of those answers, let's bring in aviation analyst, Les Abend, a 777 airline captain; and also with us, aviation attorney and former military pilot, Justin Green.

Guys, it's great to see you.

To that last point that Frederik Pleitgen was getting to, Les, what can this piece provide when they analyze it? The big question is, does this flaperon, did it come off in air, did it come off when it impacted the water? As a pilot though, let's take the circumstance it would come off in the air. What would happen in flight if a flaperon came off in air and what were the circumstances that it would be under?

LES ABEND, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: If it was just one flaperon, there would be a little bit of a flight control difficulty. There's other ailerons on the airplane all on the trailing edge. Kate, there's actually two on each side -- on each wing. So there would be some controllability issues, enough they would probably want to divert, but I don't see that scenario happening. Honestly, my personal opinion, this airplane hit the water and that piece of debris floated after impacting. I have talked about the Hudson River landing in 2009. The engine ripped off. You know, with a nice, controlled descent and a well-managed situation.

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: Even if that situation, the engine ripped off, yeah.

ABEND: Yeah, in that situation even sow and other little parts came off of that airplane. So what this is going to tell is how it impacted the water perhaps. Explosion in flight not very likely. This airplane flew around for seven hours and then really -- the scenario to me is fuel exhaustion. That's the way I'm seeing it. And it just somehow descended gradually or descended in a steep spiral, and it's hard to say, but that little -- that part may help. BOLDUAN: Justin, people have been taking a good look at the photos of

it already, and when you look at it very closely, these photos that we have seen, there's one side of it that seems to be in very good condition, and then the back half has sort of been shredded. And I'm wondering what you can tell -- this is not the best angle, but the back half really much more shredded, the front half all intact. Anything you can tell by that?

JUSTIN GREEN, AVIATION ATTORNEY: Nothing really. Ultimately, we have to get the part, get it to the experts, get it into a laboratory and examine it. I think we've got to really hesitate about speculating on it. But I agree with les about the scenario that is most likely.

BOLDUAN: On the other end of the news that's come out, this preliminary U.S. intelligence assessment that someone in the cockpit deliberately flew the plane off course. When you take a look at -- we can remind our viewers what that course was. From a pilot perspective, if you're in the cockpit s there any other scenario that would take that plane on that circuitous route?

ABEND: It's bizarre to me. When you use the term deliberate, that doesn't necessarily mean nefarious. There's a scenario I have gone through, we can go through all the scenarios we don't have time for, but if it was a mechanical process where there was a hypoxi situation, the oxygen ran out of the airplane, it's possible somebody came up from the cabin, maybe a flight attendant, another crew member, and turned that autopilot to try to direct it back to an alternate landing site and eventually ran out of oxygen on their own. That scenario you can put holes in that absolutely.

BOLDUAN: Right.

ABEND: But let's not call it deliberate at this point and I don't know how U.S. Intelligence really knows from the limited data they got from primary radar, from satellite. How do they know unless they have cockpit transmissions?

BERMAN: Justin, that information, our Evan Perez is getting that from intelligence sources. They're saying the intelligence assessment right now is they believe it was deliberate, not necessarily from aviation sources and there could be a difference.

GREEN: It's really important to know 100 percent what happened. Now, if it was the pilot or the pilots who took the airplane off course, if you think about it, had we known that occurred back over a year ago, maybe Germanwings doesn't happen. So the information with the families who I have been speaking to for the past 24 hours, they don't want to know what might have happened or speculate maybe the pilots did it. They want to know what happened and they want to make sure what might have happened or speculate maybe the pilots did it. They want to know what happened and they want to make sure what happened to their loved one doesn't happen to any other passenger on any other flight in the future.

[11:10:15] BOLDUAN: That sure brings it back to why this is so important in figuring out, not just for everyone who is interested in what happened, this great mystery but for the families in order to prevent it ever from happening again. One of the other big questions is can they find any other pieces of debris and how that can fit into the puzzle. Because of the flaperon's construction, it's too light and it's buoyant. Are there other things on the plane, Les, that are as buoyant that you could think would still be floating around 500- plus days later?

ABEND: There are other parts of the airplane itself that have a similar construction material, parts of the wing, parts of the tail. In addition, what first comes to mind are life preservers, seat cushions, all those things. However, they may have remained more than likely with the main part of the wreckage and submerged itself where they are searching, and I'm still very much an advocate of that search area and how they've gone about finding that search area.

BERMAN: All right. Les Abend, Justin Green, thank you so much for being with us. Thanks, guys.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: Don't miss our special report tonight 9:00 p.m. eastern, "Vanished: The Mystery of Malaysia Airlines Flight 370," only here on CNN.

So Jeb Bush says America is too politically correct, saying no one should apologize for saying all lives matter. Just moments ago, he and Hillary Clinton appeared on the same stage addressing African- American voters, so hear what they had to say.

BOLDUAN: Plus, the American dentist who hunted and killed one of Africa's most famous lions, he is right now wanted by Zimbabwe. The problem is he's nowhere to be found. So what will the United States do in this situation?

And also, a potential game-changer against one of the world's deadliest and most contagious virus. An Ebola vaccine showing perfect results.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:15:18] BERMAN: Happening now, a potential international tug of war over a dead lion and a dentist. Zimbabwe calling on the U.S. to extradite American dentist, Walter Palmer, who killed Cecil the lion. Officials say Palmer paid $50,000 to hunt the prized lion with a crossbow. Officials in Zimbabwe say he is guilty of a well- orchestrated and well-resourced poaching. U.S. Fish & Wildlife officials now want to speak to Palmer but they can't find him.

BOLDUAN: Meanwhile, the White House will be reviewing a public petition to extradite Palmer. It has well over 100,000 signatures.

Joining us to discuss is CNN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney, Danny Cevallos.

Danny, on this point of Zimbabwe wanting to seek an extradition on Walter Palmer, what are the chances of that? DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: They're strong. Here's why.

BOLDUAN: Really?

CEVALLOS: Yeah. We have an extradition treaty. And not because of the merits of the case, I will say that. We have an extradition treaty with Zimbabwe, along with many other countries, and the rule is this, that treaty provides for dual criminality. As long as it's a serious crime or a crime in the requesting country, and there's a similar crime in the requested country, which here is the United States, then you can extradite the person. The only thing that will happen procedurally is the State Department will review this, they'll forward it to the DOJ, the U.S. attorneys will get a warrant and then there will be a hearing, a hearing before a judge. But not the kind of hearing he's likely to prevail at because all they need to show is essentially probable cause that this is a crime, not only in Zimbabwe, but also here. And that's the issue that I hone in on, what is that crime?

BERMAN: I want to get to that in a minute but I want to talk about this extradition a little more. I remember with Amanda Knox when we were talking about her being convicted in Italy --

BOLDUAN: But let's be honest, a much more serious crime.

BERMAN: A very different story there.

CEVALLOS: Easier now because murder is usually illegal everywhere.

BERMAN: Yeah, but everyone said the United States would not extradite her to Italy if all those appeals had found her to be guilty.

CEVALLOS: Exactly. And that's what fascinating about treaties is that they are nothing -- the reason we extradite is because we have a treaty with that country. That treaty is nothing more than a contract, and a contract can be broken. That is sort of the criticism of international law. In many ways you can break it and what's your remedy? Zimbabwe will not put the U.S. in Zimbabwean jail if they decide they don't want to extradite. But under the very permissive rules of extradition, what will happen procedurally is the U.S. is supposed to have a hearing before a judge and that judge only has to find if there's probable cause that a crime was committed, that has that dual criminality amount, and essentially they have to rubber stamp and send the man on to Zimbabwe, without even -- and this is the law -- without even inquiring as to whether or not he will be guaranteed a fair trial in Zimbabwe, whether --

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: They're just expected to send them along.

CEVALLOS: Yes. In fact, the case law was pretty clear that they are not even allowed to ask, hey, will you take care of him in Zimbabwe and give him a lawyer and a nice padded cot in his cell. No. They're supposed to simply extradite. So the real issue becomes is poaching, as they're describing it, a

crime in Zimbabwe, as it is here? And there are a couple ways of looking at it. Yes, we have poaching laws, but at the same time, we don't have a lot of lion poaching laws, and those laws are different. So if I'm his attorney, the dentist's attorney, and he has a hearing before a federal judge, that would be the main attack, is that this is not the same crime in Zimbabwe as it is here. Because remember, lion hunt is legal in Zimbabwe. Trophy hunting is legal. Baiting lions is legal --

(CROSSTALK)

CEVALLOS: -- and even shooting lions with a radio collar is legal. Those are all legal acts in Zimbabwe. So --

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: But it became illegal when he was shot on grounds that didn't have a --

(CROSSTALK)

CEVALLOS: From my understanding of Zimbabwean law and as a --

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: Which is extensive.

CEVALLOS: -- in Zimbabwe, right, I will say that it appears that the main crime was that it was -- shot in an area that did not have a quota for lions.

BERMAN: And perhaps lured from a safe area, too.

CEVALLOS: Lured from a safe area, yeah, but it's the quota issue. So that becomes is that comparable to when our hunters on a fall November day wander in the forests of Michigan and they shoot a doe when they don't have a doe permit.

BOLDUAN: Can I get your quick take, the fact there's a bit of a question out there, the outrage has reached a point where it's too far. This man's life has been threatened. He did something illegal, let's agree on that. His life has been threatened and his personal information has been put out there on social media. Despite how sickening the crime may be to many people, it's kind of frightening.

CEVALLOS: Yeah. Look, let me start with I don't hunt, I don't like hunting, not into it. But I will say this, it is something that is legal, not only in Africa, but shooting animals is legal here in the United States. And, in fact, percent shooting lions -- up to 100 a year are shot in that African country and there's no outrage. And it seems the only time there's outrage is apparently when we give them a name. That's the difference. The other unnamed lions, no problamo. Now we have a lion we named Cecil and, because of that, we're going to gang pile on somebody that hunts. Frankly, it's not my kind of thing. I would never display the animal

heads on my wall, but at the same time, if for the most part he's been acting legally, what is the complaint? Why are we, as a nation -- and this is beyond my pay grade -- but why are we gang piling on somebody that is just one of many people doing something that is a distasteful hobby. Get into model airplanes or something instead. This is not a real -- this is not a very productive hobby in my opinion. But then again I grew up in rural Michigan. Every one of my other friends disagree with me. Every fall, they go up to the woods to drink beer and shoot a deer.

[11:20:54] BERMAN: no lions though.

BOLDUAN: You can shoot a deer and not drink beer. I will put that out there.

BERMAN: Danny Cevallos, thanks so much. This will be for the politicians and the lawyers to decide.

BOLDUAN: Coming up for us, could a new vaccine stop Ebola? Breaking today, it's being called a game-changer, a breakthrough against deadly outbreaks.

BERMAN: Plus, new video emerges of the deadly shooting involving a campus police officer and an unarmed man. So does this new video help in the officer's defense?

Plus, brand new video just in of the piece of debris from what appears to be a Boeing 777, loaded up, headed to France to be analyzed by investigators who very quickly could determine whether it is a piece of MH370.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:25:06] BOLDUAN: Could Ebola be a thing of the past? This morning the World Health Organization announced a new vaccine for the terrifying and deadly virus is, in its words, "highly effective." And officials want to start vaccinating people right away.

BERMAN: Scientists ramped up research efforts to battle the Ebola after the deadly outbreak in West Africa last year. Remember, there were people with Ebola who ended up in the United States as well.

Let's bring in our senior medical correspondent, Elizabeth Cohen.

Elizabeth, this vaccine has 100 percent success rate so far?

DR. ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, if it's given in a certain way. John and Kate, this is really exciting news. Let me tell you what the researchers did. They took 4,000 people who had a family member who had Ebola or they had a friend who had Ebola or they were the friend of a friend of someone who had Ebola. In other words, people who are at a pretty high risk for getting Ebola, and they -- what you would expect about 80 of those 400 to 4,000 to go on and get Ebola, so you would expect 80 cases of Ebola in that group, but none of them got Ebola if they were vaccinated basically ASAP and if you waited 10 days for the vaccine to kick in. So as long as those two things happened, they were vaccinated as soon as possible and then 10 days went by so the vaccine could kick in, none of those people got Ebola. And, John and Kate, this effort was led by the World Health Organization and others, and basically in 11 months, they did the work that is usually done in more than a decade. That's usually how long it takes to get a vaccine up and running, but they did it in 11 months.

BOLDUAN: That is amazing how fast they were able to pull this off. The big question is does this vaccine work with all strains of Ebola? Because we learned, unfortunately, that there are many strains of it.

COHEN: There are. So the strain that's out there now and the one that was so terrible last year is called Zaire (ph). That's what this vaccine works against. In the past, there have been other strains. In the future, there would be other strains. This vaccine would not work they don't think against that's other strains but the principle of the vaccine, they're hoping it could apply to other strains. And what they're really hope something that they come up with a vaccine that works against multiple strains. That's what they're working for.

BERMAN: And then they get in there with an outbreak, create some sort of herd immunity.

COHEN: That word around is important, it's called a ring vaccination. You get the community around the people who have been vaccinated, and that's what they did here and it seemed to work quite well.

BERMAN: A lot of possibilities, a lot of hope right now.

Elizabeth Cohen, thanks so much.

COHEN: Thanks.

BERMAN: So that piece of debris found on Reunion Island, that piece belonging to a Boeing 777, about to leave for France. Officials believe they may be onto something. Will they find more pieces of debris floating by?

BOLDUAN: New body camera video from Cincinnati. What this officer said moments after shooting and killing an unarmed black man. That is coming up.

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