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At This Hour
Baltimore Police Ready for Unrest during Freddie Gray Death Hearing; Second Video in Gilbert Flores Killing Shows Knife; Judge Denies Motions in Freddie Gray Death Case. Aired 11:30-12p ET
Aired September 02, 2015 - 11:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[11:30:00] JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And here's what we do know. There was a break a short time ago, and we heard that the judge was expected to announce decisions on two critical motions, the defense motion to actually dismiss the charges and the defense motion to recuse Marilyn Mosby and the prosecutor's office.
It's a closed courtroom. There are more than 12 defense lawyers. There are more than seven prosecutors on the state's side, including Marilyn Mosby. And we know the main argument was, the defense, in regards to dismissing the charges, the main argument was when this elected state attorney stood on the steps May 1st, announcing and reading the probable cause statement, they say that she presumed guilt. She didn't presume innocence. And there was a potential jury pool, and she was asking for justice for Freddie Gray, not asking for justice in and of itself. The prosecutor then rebound by saying that was entirely false, that she did what she is allowed to do.
And there was also a mention about the unrest. The judge then stepped this and said, but it is not the duty of the prosecutor to quell the unrest in this city.
They went on to the second motion and that was the motion to recuse the state attorney. And in that, the prosecutor really said that the state attorney's office, they become witnesses in this case, because they had their own investigation going on at the very same time. Prosecutor rebuttal? No. Just because we conducted some interviews, just because we were interested in having our own investigation, should not impact us so that we are recused from the case.
So while that was going on, on the inside, there were protests on the outside. About four blocks away from the courthouse, down near the water front area, there were some protesters that were holding arms together, justice for Freddie Gray. The police asked them to move out of the roadway. They believe they didn't move as they were told to do, so there was an arrest. The police confirmed with us no one was tasered, but there was an arrest. That person was put in the paddy wagon.
But now we're waiting to see the ruling, John, on two critical issues to see if this case will even go forward.
BERMAN: Any minute now, someone will literally come running down the courthouse steps with that information.
Jean, we will get back to you when it does happen.
State Attorney Marilyn Mosby in the courtroom for this. Freddie Gray's family was not. We will get to that courthouse the minute we get any word on the ruling.
Plus, more breaking news in the search for suspects wanted in the murder of a police officer. Why the manhunt has been called off. We have details ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[11:36:23] BERMAN: Just a short time ago authorities in Illinois called off the huge manhunt for three suspects in the killing of a veteran police officer. The investigation itself does continue. Lieutenant Joe Gliniewicz was gunned down after making a radio call saying he was running after three suspicious people. He served on the police force in the town of Fox Lake for 32 years. He was planning to retire at the end of this month.
Joining me now is, Matt Fogg, retired chief deputy U.S. marshal.
Matt, if they call off the manhunt, what exactly does that mean? Doctor, why would you make a decision like that?
MATT FOGG, RETIRED CHIEF DEPUTY U.S. MARSHAL: They make a decision like that because their concern is right now all of the leads have been exhausted as far as far as that area is concerned, trying to search for these folks. They have to regroup, look at the ballistics, try to determine if there is anything that they can get out of the ballistics or any other -- but right now, all of their leads have just pretty much been shut down.
BERMAN: Obviously, we had the manhunt in Upstate New York after the prison break there. That was in wooded rural areas. This is more suburban, a lot of schedules closed down, subdivisions here. I imagine there are lot of people very scared, three people suspected of killing a police officer and stealing his weapon.
FOGG: That's right. And certainly I can understand the town because this is a very unusual incident for that area up there. So when you hear something like this, you talk about three suspects, definitely people will be afraid, hearing what happened in the situation in New York, it's just normal for people to get upset to be a little concerned and to be upset and especially if you don't have anybody in custody, you don't have any information to lead you to the name or identity of someone, that will really make folks uneasy. But I think right now they are confident that law enforcement notices what it's doing.
BERMAN: Nerves frayed right now, not just in that area, but all around the country. Four police officers killed in the United States in just the last nine days. At this point who oversees this investigation? We heard all kinds of law enforcement personnel on the scene including local, state police, FBI, as well. And how far do you think these suspects could be? FOGG: Was it three? They have to look at the information, look at
the shots fired, try to make a determination if there was in fact three. It seems for me if it was three people involved, it would seem like they would have a little more information. So all of this stuff is sort of uncertain.
But when you talk about the jurisdiction, it is the local jurisdiction having the local authority, unless there was something that indicated that these people went across state lines and they got some evidence that they can bring into federal authorities. But other than that, it will be probably the local authorities and local people handling it right now.
BERMAN: Matt Fogg, thank you so very much.
Of course, that community very much in mourning. Lieutenant Joe Gliniewicz on the force for 32 years. Mourning his loss while they search for these maybe three people responsible for his death.
[11:40:00] BERMAN: Just in, new details as police look at a second video showing officers gunning down a man with at least one hand in the air. What we are now told a video shows the suspect holding in the other hand. A different video. Will they make that public? Stay with us.
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BERMAN: Moments ago, new information about shooting near San Antonio where deputies shot and killed a suspect who appeared to have his hands raised in this one video. Now new information about a second video that we have not seen. A source with knowledge of the investigation tells CNN the second video shows the suspect had a knife in his hand at the time he was shot. The sheriff's department says the officers were responding to a domestic disturbance call coming from this man's home. When they arrived, police say they saw a woman and a baby, both appeared to be injured. And Gilbert Flores -- you see him right here -- was resisting arrest, police say, armed with a knife. Officers say they tried to use nonlethal force, including stun guns to subdue him, but it didn't work. And then the video so many people have seen taken from a witness several yards away.
We want you to take a look. Parts are disturbing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[11:45:16] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They just shot (EXPLETIVE DELETED), bro.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: Notice one hand was obscured by the pole. Presumably, the second video was from a different angle.
Also, we have part of the 911 call from dispatchers to paramedics. Listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO FEED)
DISPATCH: The male that called it in assaulted his wife and child, so possibly two patients. And he is also threatening suicide, so possibly three patients.
PARAMEDIC: They are talking to the subject now. He's outside talking to them, and he has a knife in his hand.
DISPATCH: Suspect down at this time. They just had additional shots fired.
(END AUDIO FEED)
BERMAN: Joining me now, now, Sara Sidner, in San Antonio.
Sara, you broke the news that police, or sources say there is a second video showing the suspect had a knife in his hands.
SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right. We just got new information from that source, a source that has knowledge of the investigation. The source telling us that both of Flores's hands were up, but the one that is obscured in the video released from the public, one hand did have a knife according to the source who says that they saw the video, the second video that has not been released to the public. That will play very large in how this investigation goes forward.
We know from the district attorney's office that there was a second video that was much closer and gives a much better view where you can see both of the suspect's hands. The first video that you revealed there also very disturbing, but you cannot see one of his hands. And these details are paramount to how the investigation proceeds and whether the district attorney decides to charge either of the officers. We're expecting to hear from the police themselves in a couple of hours in this particular case -- John?
BERMAN: The information if there was in fact a hive did the police fear for their lives, was the shooting justifiable.
Sara Sidner, thank you so much.
Those key questions, we will address with our legal analyst right after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[11:51:14] BERMAN: All right, news out of Texas involving an officer-involved shooting. Many people have seen the video near San Antonio, sheriff's deputies with a man -- they shot and killed a man. Hopefully, we can put up a still photo of this. There's a still frame. The man appeared to have his hands in the air when officers fired. Now, the news just in, police sources, sources close to the investigation tell Sara Sidner there is a second video which shows that in his hand, the hand obscured by the telephone pole, that man, that suspect, is holding a knife. Does that matter?
Joining us, CNN legal analyst, Danny Cevallos.
Danny, a lot of people saw this video and said, "Hey, this guy had his hands up in the air, police still shot him." Now sources are saying his hands were up in the air, yeah, but there was a knife in one of those hands.
DANNY CAVALLAS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I was one of those people that had that same first impression. But when you take a look at this video, there are many things it doesn't tell us including what was happening immediately before, why they were there on the call to begin with, were there victims presently at risk of danger? And, of course, that obscured arm. What was it doing? Was it holding a weapon? Was it brandishing a weapon? Was it threatening with a weapon? And even if there was no weapon at all, was it doing something? That arm, that hand, that could be reasonably interpreted as threatening deadly force.
BERMAN: If there is a nice, how much easier is it to interpret it as fearing deadly force?
CEVALLOS: There's no task book but if there is a knife it moves the officers closer towards a rational determination of imminent fear of deadly force. Of course, if it's a handgun we up it to the top. But in a case like this where you have a knife, that alone, even you could argue, without a knife, he could be threatening deadly force. But with that knife, I would expect that we're going to want to see some sort of threatening gestures or use of in the some way.
BERMAN: That's what people are saying. Saying maybe we has a knife obscured by the telephone pole but he doesn't appear to be moving the hand with the knife.
CEVALLOS: Yes, but I would just add, playing devil's advocate, that use-of-force experts will always tell you -- and they testify in court -- that a human can close 20 yards in a matter of a second and a half. So the mere fact he may not be making an immediate move towards officers often doesn't even matter if he's that close, if he's danger close, as you might say.
BERMAN: Danny Cevallos, I'm going to pivot in a big way to breaking news.
In Baltimore, Judge Williams has denied two defense motions in the Freddie Gray case, a motion to dismiss the case for alleged prosecutorial misconduct, and a motion to recuse the state prosecutor, Marilyn Mosby, from the case. Essentially, this judge said this case is going on, six officers charged in connection with the death of Freddie Gray, this will become a trial at some point, and the state attorney can continue to prosecute.
CEVALLOS: Yes. You could boil the motion and the opposition down to two statements on each side. The defense's position is that, hey, as a prosecutor, you're too connected to this case. This is a unique case and you have too many relationships. Of course, the prosecution's response was always that prosecutors are always connected to investigations and they're often very interwoven in the politics of whatever municipality, whatever city, whatever state agency that they work for. That was what these two competing motions were about. I'm not too surprised the judge allowed the case to go forward. I imagine the judge concluded that in this case, as with many others, prosecutors have close relationships with officers, with city councilmen, with all kinds of people intimately related to the case. You need to meet a very high burden to show the prosecutor is simply too interested in a case for it to proceed.
[11:55:12] BERMAN: So the case will go forward and the state's attorney doesn't recuse herself. This afternoon, the judge will hear arguments about whether the cases should be separated. Six officers, that's another issue.
Danny Cevallos, thank you for joining us on a lot of issues. A lot of news covered here.
We'll be right back.
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ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. And welcome to "Legal View."
