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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Interview With New York Congressman Peter King; Invading Gaza; Who Shot Malaysian Plane Down?; Interview with Ukrainian Ambassador to the United States, Olexander Motsyk

Aired July 18, 2014 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: We now know that at least one U.S. citizen was on Malaysia Air Flight 17 when it was shot down. If you connect the dots, does Vladimir Putin have American blood on his hands?

I'm Jake Tapper. This is THE LEAD.

The world lead. The U.S. government believes that the missile that shot down flight 17 came from an area of Ukraine controlled by Russian-backed separatists. So how guilty does that make Vladimir Putin in all this? If you choose to believe him, not at all.

And he was the only known American on board Flight 17, what we're learning about him and the nearly 300 other victims who died with him.

And also in world news, flares in the night sky over Gaza, as Israeli boots march below, Israel pushing a ground offensive and warning, this may be only the beginning.

Good afternoon, everyone. I'm Jake Tapper. Welcome to THE LEAD.

We're going to begin with the world lead, of course.

His name was Quinn Lucas Schansman. He was a dual American-Dutch citizen, he was a young man, and he was one of the 298 people on Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 when it was shot down, most likely by a surface-to-air missile, shot, the Obama administration believes, from a section of Ukraine controlled by pro-Russian separatists.

Now, a senior defense official tells CNN that the working theory in the U.S. government is that the Russian military supplied the rebels with the Buk missile system used to shoot down the plane. President Obama personally confirmed that at least one American was on board and he demanded an immediate cease-fire in Eastern Ukraine among Russia, the separatists and the Ukrainian government.

He also called for a -- quote -- "credible international investigation" into what happened. The president repeated an accusation today that U.S. officials have been making for months, that Russia is pulling the strings on these rebels.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They are heavily armed and they are trained. And we know that that's not an accident. That is happening because of Russian support. It is not possible for these separatists to function the way they're functioning without sophisticated equipment and sophisticated training, and that is coming from Russia.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: And yet Russian President Vladimir Putin, who has denied any Russian involvement in stirring up any of the unrest in Ukraine, despite Ukraine's government claiming to have photographic proof of Russian soldiers waltzing around with guns inside their country, well, Putin, he blames Ukraine for the downed plane.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): I want to emphasize that this tragedy would not have happened if there were peace on that land, and, in any case, if the military activities had not resumed in the southeast of Ukraine, and, of course, the state over which territory it happened is responsible for this terrible tragedy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: The mere act of investigating this atrocity has proven to become dangerous. European inspectors report shots fired near the crash site. And their spokesman says they have only been allowed to inspect about 200 yards of debris at the scene. The debris of course goes on for miles.

They're hoping to find the black boxes, the plane's data recorder and cockpit recorder. But there are fears among the Ukrainians the rebels may have already found the black boxes and handed them over to Russia.

I want to get to our Phil Black standing by live in Donetsk, Ukraine.

Phil, what are you hearing about access being limited at the site of the crash?

PHIL BLACK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, I can tell you we have moved out of Donetsk and we have actually just arrived at the site of the crash just as we speak right now.

We're near the town of Grabovo, which is further east of Donetsk. it's very late here, 11:00 p.m. It is dark. It is remote. The roads out this way, they are pretty terrible. It's taken some hours to travel this way working our way through rebel checkpoints.

But we have just arrived. We're just starting to see things right now. We have just seen for the first time a large piece of what clearly looks like part of the fuselage of the MH17. We're seeing what appears to be the beginnings of a recovery operation, an organized effort, which we're told is being put together and run by local administrations from the Donetsk region not connected directly to the central government in Kiev, but these are local authorities, local administration.

We don't know how much progress they're making just yet, as I say, dark, difficult to see. But we have gotten an indication from those European observers who were the first international team to get on the ground here today, and they talked about experiencing a great deal of hostility from the rebels here, and, also, disturbingly, talked about seeing some of the bodies already decomposing in the sun.

So, clearly a lot of work to be done here, and access here is very difficult. But access is what will be needed to investigators, to recovery efforts and so forth in order to get the evidence and also recover the bodies of the people who so tragically lost their lives on this flight, Jake.

TAPPER: Phil Black, thank you so much. Stay safe.

As we have reported, U.S. intelligence indicates that the missile that brought down Flight 17 was fired from an area of Eastern Ukraine controlled by pro-Russian separatists. But what is the evidence for this claim?

Well, Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr joins us now live from the Pentagon.

Barbara, behind the scenes, how did U.S. intelligence come to this conclusion?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: You know, Jake, it's just like a bunch of cops looking at a crime scene. And that's what this is, looking for who had the means and the motive. They had two pieces of intelligence to start.

U.S. intelligence, satellites and radars saw two things. They saw a surface-to-air missile system radar being turned on, emitting a signal. They also saw the heat signature of a major explosion in the sky not too far away. That was the starting point. They then worked their way backwards and plotted the trajectories of both the missile and aircraft and came up with what they believe was the point of impact over this area of Ukraine that is controlled by Russian separatists.

Now, for several weeks, U.S. commanders have been warning that the Russians have been transferring heavy weapons across the border. So what about this surface-to-air missile system? Well, they kept looking. There are two Russian systems that would have the capability to even do this, the warhead power, the guidance, the distance, the range.

One is not in that region at all. The other one is this, the Buk, known by the U.S. as the SA-11, known by the Russians as the Buk. This is essentially what was left standing once they eliminated all the other possibilities. The question now, did the Russians actually send this Buk system over the border from Russia into this area of Ukraine?

The Pentagon says it's not sure about that point yet, but what the Pentagon press secretary, Admiral John Kirby, said today was, in his words, it strains credulity to think that the separatists could have done this all on their own. They get the training, the advice, the help from the Russians. This is a very complicated system to operate. Not very likely they did it all by themselves.

TAPPER: Barbara Starr at the Pentagon, thank you so.

The Ukrainians also say they have intercepted phone calls between Russian forces and pro-Russian rebels in Ukraine, talking about moving the kind of weaponry believed to have brought down this passenger jet, that Buk missile system, across the border before the crash. Let's take a listen to that audio.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Where do we have to unload this beauty? Nikolaiovich?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Yes, yes but that one which I delivered. I am already in Donetsk.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Is this what I am thinking about, B, M? That one?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Yes. Yes. Buk. Buk.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Is she on the truck?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Yes, she is on there. We need to unload her somewhere to hide it.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

TAPPER: Let's bring in Congressman Peter King. He's a member of the Homeland Security Committee and a chairman of the Subcommittee on Counterterrorism and Intelligence. He's a Republican from New York State.

Congressman King, this information comes directly from the Ukrainian government. Obviously, they have been fighting these rebels. Obviously, they are against what they allege Russia is doing in supporting these rebels. How much stock do you put in this intelligence?

REP. PETER KING (R), NEW YORK: I would put a lot into it, even standing by itself. But when you combine it with everything else we know, as Barbara Starr laid out, to me there's a very convincing case here, compelling case that these -- that this is Russian weaponry. There's no other place it could have come from except for Russia.

And there's no way that these separatists would have been able to operate this equipment either without a tremendous amount of training from the Russians or even having a Russian special operator there with them. So Russia has to be ultimately responsible at the very least for criminal negligence, and in the world of international politics and diplomacy, they have to bear responsibility. Transferring weapons of this magnitude to a rebel group, you have

to be responsible for the consequences. I'm not aware of this happening before, any weapons of this type being given by a major power to a splinter group or a secessionist or insurrectionist group.

TAPPER: So, does Putin have blood on his hands with this plane crash?

KING: Putin is responsible. If you want to use the expression blood on his hands, I would say yes. As a world leader, he has to know that when he transfers weaponry of this sophistication, which is so lethal, he has to be responsible for the consequences for that.

An American died. So I would blame Putin for that. And I would also put responsibility on him for all of the others. He's the one who made the decision. If he had not transferred this equipment, it wouldn't have happened. And if he hadn't ordered the training of these secessionists to operate the equipment, it couldn't have happened. So, yes, in the world stage, he's responsible.

TAPPER: So, Congressman, what should the consequences be? What would you advise President Obama to do?

KING: I was critical of President Obama yesterday for not being more assertive. I thought he was very effective today.

I thought Ambassador Samantha Power was extremely effective at the United Nations. And Americans have to come together behind the president on this. I think though we need very strong economic sanctions, stronger than we have had. And I have urged actually that we consider having sanctions on Aeroflot, the Russian-owned airline, the government-owned airline, and deny them access to our airports, and not just the U.S.

We get our Western allies to go along with that, because that would have a real economic impact and also tremendous symbolic impact. Putin is going to have to acknowledge that he is responsible for this. He's going to have to not only just make amends for it, but he has to I believe show that he's withdrawing all of this type of equipment from Eastern Ukraine and to have it back into Russia.

TAPPER: Congressman, what can you tell us about the investigation into what precisely happened here?

KING: It's going to be difficult. We're talking about a crime scene. It's a crime scene that's spread over 10 miles. It's already been contaminated. And we don't know the where the black box is.

Every piece of evidence is vital, and yet -- so I would say it's important for the OSCE to get in there, the OSCE to go in and for Russia to guarantee that they have safe passage in and out. Otherwise, the blood that Putin has on his hands is only going to be magnified. We can't go back to the old days of Stalin and Brezhnev and Khrushchev, where something like this is covered up.

We live in a very international world today. And we depend on commerce. We depend upon certain ground rules being observed. And one of them is that you don't shoot down passenger airliners. And if a major power is involved in that, they have a real responsibility and Putin has to now try to undo some of the harm he's done by guaranteeing safe passage and access to an international investigation team going in there, right now, I would say initially by OSCE.

TAPPER: All right, Congressman Peter King of New York, thank you so much.

Coming up, Ukraine quick to point the finger at pro-Russian rebels for shooting down Flight 17. And they say those phone recorded conversations prove it. But how we do know they're authentic? Well, I will ask the Ukrainian ambassador to the United States coming up next.

Plus, scientists, students, babies traveling home or on summer vacation, the tragic stories of the lives lost on Flight 17 in the words of the family members and the loved ones they left behind.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

We are continuing our coverage of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17. Both the United States and Ukraine have accused Russia of supplying rebels in eastern Ukraine with the type of weaponry that could have been used to bring the plane down, but president Obama himself stopped short of putting the blame on Russian President Vladimir Putin.

Let's bring in the Ukrainian ambassador to the United States, Olexander Motsyk.

Mr. Ambassador, thank you so much for being here. Our deepest condolences on what's happening in your country independent of this plane crash.

I want to ask you about some of the wilder theories that are being put out there by Russian media, by pro-rebel media, accusations that the Ukrainian government shot down this plane. There's one of the rebel leaders, Igor Girkin, he said, according to the "Associated Press", he told an underling that the bodies on the scene were long dead, that this is part of some sort of staged provocation.

What's your response when you hear this?

OLEXANDER MOTSYK, UKRAINIAN AMBASSADOR TO U.S.: It's total nonsense. What terrorists did, they shot down civilian airplane. And it is Russia to be held accountable for this crime.

Russia created conflict in Ukraine, in eastern Ukraine. Russia supplies terrorists with weapons, with heavy weapons, including anti- aircraft weapons. And this is a result of that policy of Russia.

TAPPER: But you're not maintaining -- you say that the Ukrainian -- in Eastern Ukraine, the pro-Russian rebels, the separatists shot down this plane, and you say that the Russians are the ones creating this rebel movement. But are you saying that this plane was shot down intentionally or do you believe that it was a mistake?

MOTSYK: Well, it's difficult to say. The investigation should really open the situation and the way you can understand what happened. But the fact is that the civilian plane is shot down. That's a tragedy, that's a big tragedy.

TAPPER: What is Ukraine doing to find the specific rebels who you say shot down this plane?

MOTSYK: Well, the government of Ukraine, (INAUDIBLE) established an investigation commission and we invited experts from the United States, Malaysia, the Netherlands and from ICAO in order to get -- to do this investigation together and to do it in the most transparent way.

TAPPER: There were social media reports that Igor Girkin, one of the rebel leaders who has direct ties to the Russian FSB and military intelligence, that he had posted something bragging about the plane crash but then took it down. They say, the separatists say that it wasn't real.

Do you believe that Igor Girkin was responsible?

MOTSYK: I believe that terrorists are responsible -- those terrorists who now commit terrorist acts in eastern part of Ukraine who exactly did that. The investigation should tell about that. And what is -- what is very important that Igor Girkin and all other leaders are Russian citizens who reside in Russia and who came simply to Ukraine to create a protracted conflict and to keep control -- to keep Ukraine under control.

TAPPER: Very quickly, sir. Do you know where the black boxes are?

MOTSYK: Well, we suppose that they are place of crash and everything should be done in order that terrorists do not remove any evidences and as well as those black boxes. They should be provided for the investigation commission.

TAPPER: But you don't know exactly where they are right now?

MOTSYK: Well, we suppose that they're in Ukraine.

TAPPER: You think that they're in Ukraine.

All right. Ambassador Olexander Motsyk, thank you so much. And again, my deepest condolences in the violence in your country right now. I hope -- I hope you will find peace.

MOTSYK: Thank you.

TAPPER: When we come back, sirens sounding in Tel Aviv as rockets rain down from Gaza. And Israel responds with thanks and ground troops, hundreds now dead in that conflict. I'll talk to spokesmen from both sides of this conflict coming up next. And still ahead, the parents traveling with their infant son who

have should have been on Flight 17 if not for a twist of fate. That mother shares her story coming up ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: You're looking at live pictures from Gaza. Welcome back to THE LEAD. We'll get back to the downing of Flight 17 and remembering the victims, including one American in just a few moments.

But we want to turn now to the other big story in international news right now: Israel upping its attacks against Hamas in Gaza. We are 24 hours into the grounds offensive that the Israeli government launched into Gaza. The Prime Minister Netanyahu warns could go on for a while. The goal they say is to destroy tunnels is Hamas is using to get in and out of Gaza.

President Obama said they spoke with Prime Minister Netanyahu this morning. While he supports Israel's right to fight against terrorism, he's concerned about the cost of innocent lives.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The United States and friends and allies are deeply concerned about the risks of further escalation and the loss of more innocent life. We are hopeful that Israel will continue to approach this process in a way that minimizes it civilian casualties.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Joining us now in Tel Aviv is Lieutenant Colonel Peter Lerner, spokesman for the Israel Defense Forces.

Lieutenant Colonel Lerner, thanks for joining us.

Can you give us a status update on your operation? Is it just limited to shutting down these Hamas tunnels? Because to many observers, it seems to be expanding in goal.

COL. PETER LERNER, ISRAEL DEFENSE FORCES SPOKESMAN: Well, indeed the IDF activities that commenced last night in a ground mobilization are primarily to deal with the tunnels. As we go into the Gaza Strip, cross into the fence, clearly the tunnels that are utilized to infiltrate Israel in order to carry out devastating damage and death and carnage, they are primary targets.

I would point out that over the last 11 days, we've had about 1,600 rockets launched from Gaza. So those would be a secondary target, as well. These are the type of threats we are up against.

TAPPER: Why did the Israeli military reportedly destroy the Al- Wafa rehabilitation hospital nest Gaza?

LERNER: Over the recent days, we've had several accounts of rocket launching from around the hospital. We had actually noticed and notified the administration of the hospital that there is a problem in the immediate vicinity and that there is rocket launching taking place around the hotel -- around the hospital, excuse me. So, we had to operate against that target.

Unfortunately, the administration just until last night refused to evacuate the premises and decided to take the situation into their own hands. I would say that this actually illustrates the type of challenge we are up against, whereas all of these rockets that are being launched in Israel, they're being launched from residential areas, from places like near the Wafa hospital. They're being launched from the courtyards of mosques. They place rockets, yesterday the U.N. announced rockets have been placed in a school of theirs.

So, you know, this is the type of challenge we face and it is a huge feat for the military and for our planning and executing of military operations.

TAPPER: I believe it was an abandoned school, but point taken. And yet, I do wonder, sir, if you look at the four little boys who were killed on the beach playing soccer, if you look at other incidents, the women who were killed in that home for the disabled, we have reports now of four children being killed northeast of Gaza City, one of them as young as 2 years old -- are you really attributing all of the civilian death, all of the dozens and dozens of innocent children being killed by the Israeli military? Is it all because of human shields, all because of Hamas being embedded? None of it is the fault of the Israeli military?

LERNER: Primarily, I think it's important to say that any human life that is lost is a tragedy. We openly declare that and openly say it and we actually mean it.

You know, operating within this urban warfare, operating in this close contact is a huge feat and indeed, when we are trying to strike at these terrorists that are deeply embedded, pen there is a danger and it can spill over.

We are going to a great length to try and minimize the civilian impact. We are -- what other military in the world calls can up its enemy and says we are going to strike your command and control position? This is the type of thing we do.

We send leaflets. We inform the people. I'm not saying that there cannot be mistakes. We will investigate the breaches of those incidents that you pointed out.