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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Protests in Ferguson Continue; Brown Toxicology Report Completed; Obama Remarks on Iraq & Ferguson

Aired August 18, 2014 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to THE LEAD.

We're coming to you live with breaking news from Ferguson in Missouri. Any moment now, President Obama will make remarks on Iraq and the crisis right here in Missouri, where the curfew has been called off, but the National Guard has been called in after some of the worst violence yet between police and protesters inflamed over the fatal shooting of unarmed black 18-year-old Michael Brown by a white officer nine days ago.

A slew of new information today, including results of a private autopsy commissioned by the Brown family.

Plus, perhaps the clearest account yet of what officer Darren Wilson is saying happened that fateful day. A woman identified only as Josie called into a local radio station KTFK. She claims to be a friend of officer Wilson. And she gave his side of the story. A source with detailed knowledge of the case says Josie's version accurately matches the officer's version of events.

And, of course, we have yet to hear the officer's version of events. CNN has methodically and deliberately vetted this woman's account and we offer it because it does square with what officer Wilson is privately saying happened. And his side of the story again really has yet to be told.

In the last week, CNN has brought you eyewitness accounts from no fewer than three individuals from the community here in Ferguson who say they saw what happened. It's in the interests of everyone that we also hear what the officer is telling people as well. And this matches clearly with that according to a knowledgeable source.

Josie says that officer Wilson initially saw Brown and his friend walking in the middle of the street. He rolled down his window and told them to get over to, move onto the sidewalk. When they wouldn't, Wilson says, Josie said this happened.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But he pulled up ahead of them and he was watching them. And then he gets the call in that there was a strong- arm robbery. And they give the description. And he is looking at them, and they've got something in their hands that looks like it could be what -- the cigars or whatever. So he goes in reverse back at them.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

TAPPER: Police on Friday released video which they claim shows Brown committing what's called a strong-armed robbery at a convenience store not far from here, stealing about $50 worth of cigars.

Now, this was minutes before the shooting. And when officer Wilson tried to get out of his car, according to his story, Josie says, she believed that Brown slammed the door back on Wilson and then a struggle ensued.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As he stands up, Michael just bum-rushes him, just shoves him back into his car, punches him in the face, and then, of course, Darren grabs for his gun, and Michael grabs for the gun.

At one point, he's got the gun totally turned against his hip and Darren shoves it away, and the gun goes off.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

TAPPER: Now, the results of the autopsy requested by Brown's family released today, that does not show any evidence on Brown's body that he and the officer tussled. It's important to note that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. MICHAEL BADEN, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: There weren't signs I have struggle. In talking about struggle, one of the things that the attorneys have also asked for is the medical examination of the officer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So, as far as we know, with the information we have, it's inconclusive to really make a ruling on any struggle. The examiners would need to see officer Wilson's medical report as well.

Anyway, after the initial shot, the woman claiming to be the officer's friend says Brown tried to flee.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Michael takes off with his friend. They get to be about 35 feet away and Darren -- of, course protocol is to pursue. So he stands up and yells, "Freeze!" Michael and his friend turn around, and Michael starts taunting him. "Oh, what are you going to do about it? You're not going to shoot me."

And then he said, all of a sudden, he just started to bum-rush him. He just started coming at him full speed, and so he just started shooting, and he just kept coming.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

TAPPER: Again, this woman did not see it. She is saying what Wilson's version of events is.

Now, Brown's friend and a number of witnesses claim he was not charging at the officer at that point, but rather that he had his hands in the air. And we will get into how all of this compares with the private autopsy results later in the show.

So we have been waiting right now for President Obama to come out and speak about Iraq and the unrest over the shooting here in Ferguson, Missouri.

So let's get right to our White House correspondent, Michelle Kosinski.

Michelle, what are we expecting President Obama is going to say?

MICHELLE KOSINSKI, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Jake.

Well, it may very well be more about Iraq than what's going on in Ferguson. But when you look at these two stories, one of incredible global significance, the U.S. conducting airstrikes over Iraq, and then the unrest in Missouri over the past week, that tells you just how much importance the White House is placing on both of those topics.

In fact, the president came back for a few days from his vacation not necessarily to deal specifically with these issues. We don't know why exactly the president decided to come back, but he did have two important meetings today, one with a number of members of his national security team on Iraq and the other one-on-one with the attorney general, Eric Holder.

Now, we have heard from the president twice on Ferguson, one in a written statement and another one on camera. And both times, he didn't put this into racial terms. We know now that some are wishing that he would, that he would lay it out there, make some strong statements about what's going on, maybe even his personal feelings about what's been going on.

We don't know exactly that he will do that. If he takes questions, though, he's sure to face some about those issues specifically. What he has said is that the Department of Justice now has opened up an investigation into this case to see if civil rights were violated.

Also, members of the Department of Justice are there on the ground and they have already conducted hundreds of interview, we understand. And they're trying to work with local officials to not only increase public safety, but make sure that that public safety doesn't come at the expense of protesters.

Both the president and the attorney general in their statements have put it both ways. They have said -- they have condemned both violence against the protesters, many of whom have been completely peaceful, as well as condemn diagnose violence against police, Jake.

TAPPER: Michelle, last Wednesday night, when Ferguson, the scene here was really exploding, the White House seemed at least initially to be completely clueless about what was going on. President Obama was at a private reception at a golf club in Martha's Vineyard, and the White House was issuing a statement saying a good time was had by all.

KOSINSKI: Yes.

TAPPER: Are they sensitive to the fact that initially they seemed to be missing it all?

KOSINSKI: It's possible. I mean, they don't want to talk about that. It does seem like the president keeps getting caught out though when something is going on and then it turns out he's at a fund-raiser. That just -- that causes things to explode in the press and among his detractors.

Of course that's going to happen. In many cases, others will say, damned if you do, damned if you don't. Things are going to happen regardless. What the president says though at certain times has increased sensitivities. Look at the situation on the border with children coming in from Central America.

I mean, for weeks, people were calling for the president to go take a trip down to the border instead of going nearby for fund-raisers. The White House didn't want to bend to the pressure. It was clear. They're not going to put it into those terms. But we know behind the scenes that they want to do things on their own terms.

In this case, it hasn't been so pronounced that the president has been in the area and he didn't go to the scene. I mean, we're just talking about what is said when. And now we sort of unexpectedly get the statement today from the president. So that tells you that they want to make sure people know that this is something of great significance to the White House and they're working on it.

They have laid out all the ways that the Department of Justice has been involved already. And we expect to see -- to hear some more on that today, maybe a timeline on when that additional autopsy -- this would be what we think is an unprecedented third autopsy involving the federal government. Maybe we will hear some more on when that might happen and some more details regarding that, Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Michelle Kosinski, thank you so much.

While I have been standing here, there has been another arrest made just in the immediate vicinity just a few yards away. Tensions here in Ferguson remain very high. And, in fact, about 10 or 15 minutes before the show, there was a different arrest, not the one I just referred to, but another one.

Don Lemon saw that one.

Don, what happened?

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Two people.

According to people who were here, there was an older lady who stopped and said she was just using her right to protest. And the police officers told her she had to move and a couple of men, a couple of mostly men gathered around her and I think they called her mama or something like that and they said come on, mama, you're OK. You're fine.

And so they arrested the young men, two of the young men who were with her. And, of course, it sparks outrage when that happens. Jake, just before that, before I came over here, at the other location, the Q.T. that you and I have been at since we have been here, which has been sort of where everyone has been gathering for the protests, we saw an arrest there as well as we were leaving to come over here.

So, police have really been out in force today and they have arresting people. What they said is, you can walk back and forth. You have the right to protest as much as you want, but you cannot congregate. If you stand still long enough or for too long and the officers are not happy with you, they will lock you up. They will take you in.

And that's exactly what happened here, Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Don Lemon, thanks so much.

We're still waiting for President Obama to come out and face the cameras talking about Iraq, talking about what's going on in Ferguson. We're going to squeeze in a quick break.

When we come back, a new autopsy says Michael Brown was shot at least six times, and, according to the autopsy, there was no sign of a struggle. Is there any way to really know if Brown had his arms up when he was killed, as witnesses say?

Plus, still so many unanswered questions about why officer Darren Wilson shot this unarmed 18-year-old. Now a woman comes forward with details of those first moments as seen through the eyes of officer Darren Wilson. That's coming up.

Stay with us. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back to THE LEAD.

We are live from Ferguson, Missouri. We are awaiting remarks from President Obama on the crisis in Iraq and the crisis here in Ferguson. We will bring him to you live when President Obama comes to the podium.

But in the meantime, for many people in this town, the results of a private autopsy on the 18-year-old shot and killed by police, well, it seems to back up what they already believed. The autopsy showed no signs of a struggle between Michael Brown and the officer involved. And that perhaps Brown did have his hands in the air when he was shot.

But with all that we learned from that report, there is a lot that this autopsy does not tell us about what happened that day.

Let's bring in CNN's Joe Johns for more elucidation on what happened.

Joe, before we get to that, you have new information on Michael Brown's toxicology report. What can you tell us?

JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right, Jake. Preliminary toxicology reports have apparently been completed on the body of Michael Brown, though authorities in Missouri have so far declined to confirm the results to CNN, and a private autopsy authorized by the family of the teenager found that he was shot four times in the arm and twice in the head. And that Brown could have survived all but one of those shots, though both sides may be able to use the results to support very different theories about this case.

After more than a week of unanswered questions, the first autopsy results only seemed to muddy the waters. Police have suggested unarmed teenager Michael Brown was killed after a struggle for the police officer's gun but results of an autopsy done at a funeral home by renowned medical examiner Michael Baden and a colleague, Professor Shawn Parcells, might seem to suggest otherwise.

DR. MICHAEL BADEN, MEDICAL EXAMINER: No evidence of a struggle.

JOHNS: But the absence of such evidence isn't conclusive according to a former FBI investigator.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The fact there's not any indication on Mr. Brown certainly doesn't indicate there wasn't a struggle.

JOHNS: The shots also did not appear to have been fired from close range because there would have been gun powder residue on the powder.

BADEN: There's no gunshot residues on the skin surface.

JOHNS: What we know now is that Brown was struck by bullets at least six times, including two shots to the head, one of which was likely fatal.

BADEN: All of these gunshot wounds were survivable except for the one at the top of the head that went through the brain. JOHNS: What is also not clear from these results alone is whether

Michael's hands were up as if in surrender or not, which helps determine whether the use of deadly force on an unarmed individual in this situation was justifiable under law. Generally, an officer can shoot if the suspect is threatening serious bodily harm to someone or if the suspect is a felon fleeing the scene. There are many facts that autopsies no matter how thorough won't uncover.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think in the course of the investigation, some of the things that need to be done is really thoroughly looking into the backgrounds of all the people involved, both Mr. Brown as well as the officer.

JOHNS: A key question may be whether Brown was advancing or acting aggressively at the time he was shot, to put it simply, whether he was retreating, standing still or if he was moving forward in the direction of the officer when he fired. That remains an open question.

BADEN: There could be consistent with his going forward or going backward.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JOHNS: So the bottom line is that autopsy reports can only go so far toward determining what really happened and another autopsy is expected from a federal medical examiner -- Jake.

TAPPER: Joe Johns, thank you so much.

Let's dig deep fear this independent autopsy to try to get a better sense of what it tells us and doesn't tell us. Shawn Parcells is the forensic pathologist assistant and medical investigator who took part in the autopsy. He joins us now live from St. Louis.

Thanks so much for joining us.

Before we start with the autopsy, I want to get your reaction to some new information we learned today. The closest thing we have to an account from the officer, someone claiming to have knowledge of the investigation told a St. Louis radio station that according to Officer Wilson, Michael Brown grabbed the officer's gun, it went off, Brown then ran away and turned to the officer and "bum rushed him", that's a quote, at full speed. That's when the officer started shooting.

Now, there are three eyewitnesses who say that's not what happened, but I wasn't there, you weren't there. Is there anything from your autopsy consistent with the account of Officer Wilson?

SHAWN PARCELLS, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST ASSISTANT: Well, first of all, we don't know the -- we don't have any evidence that a struggle occurred in the vehicle and information about that would be a key element that would come from reconstructing the shooting scene.

I think one thing that people need to understand is, when you are looking at an autopsy, you have the autopsy of the body and literally the autopsy of the crime scene. And the autopsy of the crime scene really hasn't been done yet. We don't know what happened in the car.

TAPPER: Right.

PARCELLS: And did the gun go off? If it did, which direction was the bullet traveling?

These are all things that could be matched up with information to what Dr. Baden and I found at our independent autopsy.

The other thing we need to know about is clothing. If a gunshot wound did hit him at a close range in the vehicle, then there would be gunshot residue on the clothing that would have been filtered out and would not be present on his skin.

So, when we see it on the table, we see a gunshot wound that looks like it's from a distance when it actually occurred at a close range but we don't know the this because we need to be able to review the clothing.

Now, as far as the theory about --

TAPPER: That's right.

PARCELLS: -- Mr. Brown rushing the officer, all we know at this point is that the gunshots that occurred to the front part of the body came at a front direction. Does that mean that he was rushing the officer? Or does that mean that he was simply standing there and giving up? We can't conclusively prove that off of what we saw. That's where it's very important for the attorneys in this case to really filter out the credible witnesses and for us to examine those witnesses' statements along with the officer's statements and then be able to piece back together what happened.

TAPPER: Right. And I had a witness tell me last week that Brown was walking towards Officer Wilson with his hands in the air, not running but walking.

You don't have access to this forensic evidence. It would seem that if you did, it would be easily confirmable or contradicted whether or not he tried to grab the gun, one would think there might it be fingerprints on Officer Wilson's gun that weren't Officer Wilson's, right?

PARCELLS: I mean, from a forensic science point of view, yes, that's correct. And those are things that the authorities investigating the car, the equipment by used by the officer involved, they really need to look at those details.

The thing is, again, to reiterate is that we hope that they're doing a very thorough investigation of the car, of -- and the events that occurred during the shooting. And being able to reconstruct those and be able to collaborate that with information from the autopsy and filter out what witnesses' statements make sense and don't. I think that's when you're actually going to really be able to piece together what occurred. TAPPER: Numerous witnesses say that Brown's arms were up, the

universal sign of surrender. It's a chant here on the streets of Ferguson, "hands up, don't shoot".

Does the trajectory of the gunshot wounds from the autopsy support the idea that his hands were in the air?

PARCELLS: Well, the one gunshot wound, if you remember correctly that I pointed out at the press conference that's kind of a key gunshot wound was a wound that occurred to this part of the arm. And I know that there was one witness statement that had said that she saw Mr. Brown walking away from the officer, the officer fires his gun, he kind of jerks like he got shot and then he turns around. Well, that shot if it had hit him, could have been the shot that went into this part of the arm because as you're walking in a normal stance, that part of your arm faces your back. So that shot could have come from the back.

But at the same time, when he puts his hands up like this, you can see what part of the arm is exposed towards the officer so that shot could have also come from the front. The graze wound that occurred here also could have been in different positions with the arm whether it's up or down. And that's one thing to keep in mind is that the arm is a very movable part of the body. So those shots can be produced with the arm being in different positions. And that's why we really need to understand the reconstruction of the scene to really be able to confirm whether or not a gunshot came from a particular direction.

TAPPER: Shawn, is it normal for a police department to take so long to release the official report of what happened? It seems like we are waiting here for the police to give us information that they've had for days and days. Is this standard operating procedure?

PARCELLS: You know, as Dr. Baden said this morning, and he and I both were really surprised that at least the information that Mr. Brown was shot at least six times, the information that we released, wasn't released the day after they did the autopsy. All they said was he died by gunshot wounds but didn't say how many times.

As far as the other information that would be released, information about processing of the car and the crime scene, the toxicology report, all those do take time to put together. When those take time, I'm not surprised that those were a little bit delayed.

But what I am surprised about is that at least the preliminary results of the autopsy itself didn't come out sooner than it did.

TAPPER: Surprising indeed.

Shawn Parcells, thank you so much. We appreciate your time.

Let's go back to Michelle Kosinski in the White House briefing room, because we are expecting President Obama to come out in fewer than two minutes.

Michele, the president hasn't had much of a vacation. He's been doing some golfing here and there, but his time has got to have been preoccupied with the crisis in Iraq, as well as the tensions here in Ferguson.

MICHELLE KOSINSKI, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Right, definitely. The White House has said that. I mean, he did have a week away, and you're right, he went golfing several times, went to a birthday party, participated in some other social events, dinners with friends. But, yes, we know that daily, he's been briefed on both situations you mentioned. So, now, we expect to hear about Iraq likely first but we do know that the president will address the situation in Ferguson, Missouri.

What we don't know exactly is if he'll take questions. So, we don't know if he's going to go further than the statement and the type of statement we've already heard from him as well as Attorney General Eric Holder. But we should hear from him in less than two minutes now.

I think some are wanting to hear him put this into racial terms. But obviously, early on he didn't want to do that. It was early days when we first heard a statement and now we will hear from the president again.

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