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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Interview with Rep. Paul Ryan of Wisconsin; Interview with Missouri Democratic State Senator Jeff Roorda; "Outsiders" Inciting Violence in Ferguson?; Brown's Mother: The Violence Needs to Stop

Aired August 19, 2014 - 16:29   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper, and I'm live in Ferguson, Missouri.

It's difficult to talk about what's been happening here without at least at some point talking not just about the issue of race but about poverty and class.

Like many American suburbs these days, more than one-fifth of the population in Ferguson lives below the federal poverty line. So, how does a statistic like that play into this crisis? Well, some would say tremendously.

In an op-ed for "TIME" magazine titled "The Coming Race War Won't Be About Race," Kareem Abdul-Jabbar writes, quote, "We have to address the situation not just as another act of systemic racism, but as what else it is: class warfare to many in America being a person of color is synonymous with being poor, and being poor is synonymous with being a criminal," unquote.

My next guest is Paul Ryan, Republican of Wisconsin, chairman of the House Budget Committee and former vice presidential candidate who has had a lot of interesting things to say about poverty. He's also the author of the new book, "The Way Forward: Renewing the American Idea."

Congressman Ryan, thanks so much for joining us.

I want to start -- I know you don't want to talk about the specifics of the Michael Brown shooting. I totally respect that. There are at least two investigations going on.

But as somebody who talks about poverty who has visited urban America, as a leader, what's your response to the images you're seeing?

REP. PAUL RYAN (R), WISCONSIN: Well, first of all, I think you need to let the investigation take its course. We as leaders need to extend our sympathies, to the Brown family, to the community and respect its investigation so we can get to the facts and the truth, so that justice can be served.

I as a political leader do not want to give any impression that I'm trying to graft my policy preferences or political agenda on to this situation, because that would be disrespectful to do that.

If you're asking me on my opinions about poverty, I would tell you, we have a long ways to go to cure and fight systemic poverty in America. And we as policy-makers need to have a fresh look at the war on poverty, given that it's 50 years old and we have the highest poverty rates in a generation.

This is why, for the last two years, I have spent a lot of time with others looking at the poverty situation, listening to people fighting poverty successfully in many cases in a lot of our poor communities, and trying to apply those lessons to good public policy, so that we can focus the war on poverty on an outcome-based approach vs. what I would call has been traditionally the input-based approach, how much money are we spending, how many programs are we creating, how many people do we have on these programs, instead of how many people are we truly getting out of poverty, are we attacking the root cause of poverty to break the cycle of poverty, or are we simply treating systems.

These are the kinds of questions I think we need to ask of ourselves. And as policy-makers, we can get better solutions after doing something like that. And that's why I put a plan out to get this debate going to get some ideas on the table to see if we can get some better thinking to really finally go at some of the fundamental causes of poverty in America.

TAPPER: So, obviously, we don't have time.

I know you could talk for several days about budgets and specific social programs. Let's just talk about food stamps as one. Do you think that food stamps should be cut? Do you think that it should be monitored better? How would the Ryan proposal help people in poverty when it comes to applying that program?

RYAN: The Ryan proposal -- I call them opportunity grants -- would consolidate up to 11 different federal welfare-based programs into flexible grants to the states, so that you can customize aid per a family's need.

Here's the problem, Jake. One woman fighting poverty may need food stamps or may need job training. One man in poverty may need addiction counseling and jobs training. People have different problems. We shouldn't use this sort of Washington, one-size-fits- all, cookie-cutter solution.

Let's customize aid to families in need and let's also break up the welfare agency monopolies that are not performing like they need to and give families in need more choices on where they can get their services from and have an outcome-based approach, have a work-based approach, and then measure and test results.

The point I'm trying to make is, there are a lot of innovative ideas in our communities. We shouldn't stifle them or displace them. We should support them. And let's go with customized aid. I have seen lots of phenomenal stories, Lutheran Social Services, Catholic Charities, America Works, groups that when they have had the ability to customize aid to a particular person's need has actually helped treat that person eye to eye, soul to soul, fighting poverty far more effectively than having this one-size-fits-all situation. And that's what I have been proposing with my opportunity grants.

TAPPER: You write in your book that you regret having used the phrase makers and takers to describe economic disparity. You say -- quote -- "It sounds like we're saying people that are struggling are deadbeats."

And you also had to clarify comments you made about the tailspin of -- quote -- "inner-city culture."

Do you think that your -- I don't doubt your sincerity in wanting people to be lifted out of poverty. Having stumbled a couple times, or at least apologized for things you have said a couple times when addressing this issue, why do you think it is that Republicans seem to have such a hard time convincing the people of Ferguson behind me that you care about them?

RYAN: Sure.

So, let's take the makers and takers. That was convenient shorthand which applied too broad of a brush to a problem that we're facing in America. And, look, as a policy-maker, I think if you think you have made a mistake, you should own up to that.

More to the point, I was misdiagnosing the issue and the problem. The problem isn't people are struggling to survive in America. That's part of the American idea, struggling to make a better life for yourself. I think the problem is policies that don't work to help people get to where they want to get in life.

And so if we are not communicating that correctly, and if we are not presenting our ideas as effectively as we ought to present them, then let's learn from the mistakes and try and do a better job of doing so. And you talk about folks who are battling, who are struggling.

I think that there are policies that have been in place for a long time that haven't been working. And if they're not working, if we have persistent poverty, if we have chronic, multigenerational poverty, let's try some new ideas. Let's see what has worked in some other areas and see if we can apply them to these areas.

And so that's the kind of policy-making I think we need to do. Let's stop talking to each other in poisonous, partisan, divisive ways. And the argument I make in my book, which is, if we really want to renew the American idea, which is that the condition of your birth doesn't determine the outcome of your life, we have got a lot of work to do in this country.

I have put out a number of reforms and proposals and solutions based on solid first principles that made this country great in the first place on how to do that. That, to me, is what policy-makers should do.

I don't like the direction the country is headed right now. And, therefore, as an elected official, I shouldn't just criticize. I should propose solutions and alternatives. And that's precisely why I wrote this book and why I'm doing that.

TAPPER: You write a lot -- about a lot more than just poverty in your book, "The Way Forward: Renewing the American Idea."

Obviously, because I'm standing in Ferguson, I focused on that. I hope you come back. We can talk about more of the ideas in your book.

Best of luck with it, Congressman Paul Ryan.

RYAN: My pleasure. Thanks, Jake. Take care.

TAPPER: Residents here in Ferguson are cleaning up from last night's protests, where they were monitored by heavily armed police looking as if, some of them, they were dressed for combat, with matching vehicles in some cases.

It's a striking sight on the streets of any American town. Missouri Highway Patrol Captain Ron Johnson, who is leading the police here in Ferguson, he defended the level of response just a short while ago, saying his officers were in danger.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAPT. RON JOHNSON, MISSOURI STATE HIGHWAY PATROL: Last night, we had officers screaming for help because they were coming under fire.

And I looked at the faces of my officers saying, please send some help. Please send help. Please send help.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Johnson says they expect peace tonight. And we all hope that that's going to be the case.

But I want to talk right now to Democratic State Senator Jeff Roorda. He's the business manager for the Saint Louis Police Officers Association and a former chief of police.

And I want to get the police perspective from you. Obviously, people -- Ferguson police are not talking to the press. I got some flak from your fellow men in blue yesterday for saying that the scene looked like something out of Bagram, very militarized.

JEFF ROORDA (D), MISSOURI STATE REPRESENTATIVE: Right.

TAPPER: Why do police officers in this day and age feel that that's necessary?

ROORDA: Well, you know, I have never been through a situation like this.

And I would say that most police officers of my generation haven't either. This is the sort of thing we saw at Kent State in the '70s. And the remarkable restraint and professionalism that the police officers involved in these protests and in this civil unrest have displayed to bring of the result of no serious injuries to protesters, no serious injuries to rioters, no serious injuries to folks in the neighborhood here and most importantly no police officers hurt.

That's an incredible performance. And I'm not going to question the tactics. The tacticians on the ground that assess these situations moment to moment are best suited to make those calls.

TAPPER: What I heard last night from members of the community and what seemed to be the case myself is that the presence of 200 or 300 police consolidated blocking that interaction right there, Ferguson, the protest was generally peaceful over here. Two blocks down, it was not, but generally peaceful over here.

It seemed in some ways to antagonize the crowd. It looked like they were being occupied by a foreign army. I understand that officers' lives are important. They need to be safe. Can you understand why maybe it's doing more harm than good in some cases?

ROORDA: Well, I think the most harmful thing would be to abandon this community.

TAPPER: Well, certainly, no one's saying that. Right.

ROORDA: The law enforcement protection, you say that it was a peaceful demonstration. I think that's because law enforcement was here, not despite it.

TAPPER: But -- right, but they were -- this is what I thought worked, just from my observation. OK? And I'm not a policeman.

But what seemed to work was police in little groups of three or four all the way down, all the way back, keeping an eye on the crowds, keeping an eye on citizens, keeping an eye on stores. That seemed to work great. When they amassed over there, that's when the crowd seemed to get agitated by it.

ROORDA: Well, you can't worry about the crowd's response.

You have to worry about the outcome. And the outcome is that nobody got hurt seriously and the police did their job once again in the ninth night of chaotic, extraordinarily challenging circumstances.

TAPPER: What have you heard about officer Darren Wilson? We heard that he was hospitalized. What do you know about his condition?

ROORDA: I don't know any details. I have talked -- his attorney is a friend of mine.

They're not ready to talk to the world yet. And I think they should be given time to decide when the right opportunity is to tell officer Wilson's story. But, you know, there are media reports that he was injured. And I don't doubt that. And I pray for a speedy recovery for the officer.

TAPPER: Mr. Roorda, thank you so much. We really appreciate your time coming to share the police perspective.

ROORDA: Thank you. TAPPER: Appreciate it very much.

Coming up next, we are few hours away from nightfall here and local officials are asking protesters to stay home tonight. The big question, will they listen?

Stay with us -- more of our live coverage from Ferguson, Missouri, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD live from Ferguson, Missouri.

The images that we have seen here over the past week-and-a-half have in some cases been nothing short of surreal, the protests over the police shooting of Michael Brown descending into mayhem, with looters causing hundreds of thousands of dollars in damage at local businesses and some protesters lobbing rocks and Molotov cocktails at police.

But we have learned that of the 78 people arrested last night in the midst of these violent clashes, one in four were from outside Ferguson, some coming from as far as away as California. And some have suspected that this may be an organized effort by so-called outside agitators to incite chaos.

Now, joining me now is Mike Robinson. He's assistant pastor from the Peace of Mind Church of Happiness. And Malik Shabazz, the national president and founder of Black Lawyers for Justice and a former chairman of the New Black Panther Party.

First of all, Mr. Shabazz, you have some news. You're making a request. You and other clergy members are making a request...

MALIK SHABAZZ, BLACK LAWYERS FOR JUSTICE: Yes.

TAPPER: ... for the march this evening.

MIKE ROBINSON, ASSISTANT PASTOR, PEACE OF MIND CHURCH OF HAPPINESS: Absolutely.

SHABAZZ: Yes. We feel that marching up and down in this tight space on west Florissant is a prescription for a melee with the police trying to move the people on the sidewalk.

I'm going to re-ask the state troopers and the governor himself for permission from us based on our experience to get a five-mile march route to blow off steam and to get people a longer range to walk and get their first amendment rights going.

So they don't have to get a large crowd here and run up against riot police, which is a prescription for tear gas and disaster. We're asking for a larger march, longer march route. We would like it now.

TAPPER: And Pastor Mike, there was a request by city officials that there not be any marching or protesting after dark. You're saying that is not going to happen. ROBINSON: That cannot happen even the president himself has asked that we would never impose upon the constitutional rights of the people. They have the right to the peacefully assemble and to protest. Their voices must be heard.

We must give them that opportunity to be able to march and to demonstrate. But we are here, the clergy have united themselves here in the city of St. Louis to ensure that is done peacefully.

TAPPER: Mr. Shabazz, you have said that there are outside infiltrators you think are the ones who are provoking the police into violence by throwing bottles at them or mouthing off. None of them are from the community at all?

SHABAZZ: No, some of that is true. But there are some legitimate frustration, you know, young black men here who have nothing to live for. Where are their fathers and their parents while they're facing off against armored vehicles and tear gas?

So there are people from here that just don't care, they've lost hope. There are no jobs here. There's economic problems. There's a racial hierarchy. There are accusations of insensitivity from the mayor here.

So there's outsiders, but they've tapped into some legitimate grievances against police abuse, but also against just general injustices amongst young black men here. This is a real problem.

TAPPER: Pastor Mike, you're from here. Mr. Shabazz, you're in Washington, D.C. or New York?

SHABAZZ: Washington, D.C.

TAPPER: Is Mr. Shabazz helping the case? I've heard criticism of him. I don't know if it's fair or not.

ROBINSON: We've had criticism of him, as well. But Mr. Shabazz and I have just sat down because I had an issue. We have worked that issue out.

TAPPER: What was the issue?

ROBINSON: That I felt that there was something that was going on. I didn't have the full story. I thought he was inciting them, but what I found out is that he was actually working with us. That's what we're calling for. We're calling for unity amongst everyone not trying to come against.

We welcome all of those that may come from around the country, come to Ferguson, Missouri, assist us in the peaceful process of demonstrating, assists us in the peaceful process of insuring that justice is done for Mike Brown and his family.

SHABAZZ: What he now knows when there was a big confrontation between the demonstrators and the riot police there -- that I was trying to prevent women and children from being tear gassed and harmed and put my body as he was putting his body on the line here.

I was putting my body on the line there. Because we don't want our babies hurt, our women hurt and we don't want this to go downhill based on negativity. And so --

ROBINSON: If that is the case, with Brother Shabazz, we welcome his support. At any time that anyone outside agitators come into our city and we take ownership, if they come in and try to do something and agitate the crowd, you are not welcome in St. Louise. You are not welcome in Ferguson.

TAPPER: I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say we're praying for peace and peaceful demonstrations tonight if in fact the demonstration goes on. Mr. Shabazz, Pastor Mike, thank you so much.

Coming up next, she's one of the only people who can be truly understand the pain that Michael Brown's family is going through. What Trayvon Martin's mother is saying to the Brown family and the Brown's family reaction coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper. I'm live in Ferguson, Missouri. As we speak, as you can see, protesters are outside the office of the prosecuting attorney who is overseeing the local investigation into the shooting death of Michael Brown ten days ago.

They are demanding that he recuse himself. Bob McCulloch now coming under intense criticism from a number of people. He has deep family roots among police here. There are growing pressure from some groups in the community.

A grand jury will begin hearing evidence tomorrow. The chaos that we've seen here over the past week and a half has at times tragically overshadowed the message. This all started out as a movement demanding justice for 18-year-old Michael Brown who was unarmed and shot and killed by a police.

But Brown's parents have said all along that in the quest for that justice, they also want peace. This morning on NBC's "Today" show, Brown's mother called the violent clashes that have taken place here night after night a distraction.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LESLEY MCSPADDEN, MICHAEL BROWN'S MOTHER: We have to remain focused and have to remain strong and the violence needs to stop. When justice is prevailed, then maybe they'll regain their trust in the locals. But right now, it's really out of control.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Joining me now with more on the family's reaction is Anthony Gray, he is co-counsel for the Brown family. Mr. Gray, good to see you as always. First of all, night after night, violence, and I've heard people who were victimized by looters say what does this have to do with justice for Michael Brown. This must be in some ways very painful for the Brown family to see this violence even if it is in some way purportedly for many people in their son's name.

ANTHONY GRAY, CO-COUNSEL FOR MICHAEL BROWN FAMILY: You're absolutely right. The mother as you starred off in your segue way expressed how distraught she was by it. I join with her in her call for peace and calm and to stop the violence as it is tarnishing the image and the legacy of Mike Brown Junior. So they are not in favor of this and I join them in the call for peace and calm.

TAPPER: Sabrina Fulton, the mother of Trayvon Martin who was gunned down by a neighborhood watch captain, she penned an open letter to Michael's parents and in the letter, she says, "Neither Trayvon nor Michael lives shall be in vain." Has the Brown family seen the letter? What's the response?

GRAY: I don't know if they've seen the letter. That is the first time that I've heard of the letter. So I'll verify that after we talk, but I would imagine that they would receive that welcomely and however they process ha information, I would leave that up to them.

TAPPER: Have the police reached out to the Brown family? Has there been any contact between them and I mean, it might be a crazy question, but even somebody who represents Officer Wilson?

GRAY: Jake, not that I'm aware of. I'm unaware of the chief reaching out, St. Louis County reaching out in any formal way.

TAPPER: Not even to offer condolences? Nothing?

GRAY: The only person that I know that has reached out and said something to this family was Captain Ron Johnson. He's bringing that unique heartfelt feeling to this situation. I know of no other law enforcement authority other than the federal government that has done that.

TAPPER: So the U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder will be in Ferguson tomorrow as part of the investigation.

GRAY: OK.

TAPPER: Is he meeting with the family? Is he meeting with you and Mr. Crump?

GRAY: It's my understanding he will be meeting with the family undisclosed location and time. I will not be in the room. I want that meeting to be private and confidential. I do not plan to be there.

TAPPER: What else is the Brown family going through right now legally? Are they thinking about a wrongful death suit? Is it too early for that? What are they talking to you about in terms of your job? GRAY: Well, they have not spoken on the legal aspects of this at all. They are at this point concentrating on burying their child and giving him a good homecoming. That's pretty much the only discussions I've had with the parents within the last few days.

And so at some point, perhaps we may sit down and examine the facts and see if there's something there at this point, that has been nowhere on their radar.

TAPPER: Have you heard anything more about Officer Wilson's version of events? There is obviously that friend of his who gave a radio interview. But beyond that, there is talk of other witnesses coming forward and talking to the police. Perhaps not all of them with the same story as we've heard from Antonio and other witnesses. What have you heard?

GRAY: Well, you know what I heard as his official version came from the county police chief. And since then, I have heard the audio of the young lady who got information through somebody else and keeping in mind she's not even a witness to the events.

TAPPER: Not at all.

GRAY: So that's pretty much all I have been able to hear or see with regards to his version of events.

TAPPER: Have you asked for the police report from the police?

GRAY: We have not asked for the police report because we understand it's an ongoing investigation. It is not done. We are out of a courtesy giving them some time to complete that investigation before we go through a full-fledged request for them to turn over documents and investigative reports and the like.

TAPPER: You obviously have respect for Captain Ron Johnson, who has been in charge of the security here since last Thursday. The image and the police presence still strong. A lot of people in the community still think it's an overreaction in some areas. I was here last night.

Here it was relatively peaceful. But there was a huge show of force down there, protesters getting violent with police. What goes through the mind of the Brown family when they see these images of the police? Do they think the police are overreacting?

GRAY: We had a discussion about that. Our analogy was we thought about it similar to the Mardi Gras. And where there's a large gathering of people and there's isolated pockets of activity. Police don't throw tear gas on the whole crowd.

They don't tell everybody to go home and treat everybody like a hostile. They ask for them to part the place like the red sea. They go to that hot spot, deal with that issue and people continue to do what they were lawfully doing in the first place.

What I see here is the treatment of all people based on the behavior of just a few people. I don't agree with that, but I understand this is an experiment from a security standpoint. We've never had this happen before. So they're trying to adjust it so it will fit the situation and I give justice to that.

TAPPER: All right, Anthony Gray, thank you so much. We appreciate it. That's all for me. I'm Jake Tapper in Ferguson, Missouri. I now turn you over to Brianna Keilar. She is filling in for Wolf Blitzer in "THE SITUATION ROOM."