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The Lead with Jake Tapper

National Guard Leaving Ferguson; Holder Assures Family Of Fairness; Controversy Over St. Louis Shooting; U.S. Refused To Pay Ransom For Foley

Aired August 21, 2014 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Let's bring in Democratic Congressman Lacy Clay of Missouri. He'll be speaking at Michael Brown's funeral on Monday. We have a lot to talk to about -- talk with about him -- talk to about him. Sorry.

Congressman Clay, good to see you, as always.

I want to get your take on the events from the last few days, the protests calming down, the National Guard slowly leaving according to the governor. Is progress being made here?

REP. WILLIAM LACY CLAY (D), MISSOURI: Well, Jake, after having the meeting yesterday with Attorney General Holder, Governor Nixon, Senators Blunt and McCaskill, as well as Congressman Cleaver, I think that the community feels better and knows that the federal government is now taking an expansive view of this case. They are investigating it.

And from all reports, it's pretty good that the night was quiet last night along West Florissant Boulevard.

And so, we hope things are settling down. But in the end, it's going to require that Michael Brown's family and the Ferguson community get justice from the judicial system. And that will have to happen.

TAPPER: There are supporters of Officer Darren Wilson, the officer who shot and killed Michael Brown, who say that they feel like he is not getting due process. You had Governor Jay Nixon earlier this week say -- call for a, quote, "vigorous prosecution of Wilson." The grand jury hasn't reached any sort of conclusion. It may be they decide not to indict at all.

Do you not have the concerns about this officer who is also a Missouri constituent and whether or not he also deserves justice?

CLAY: Well, first of all, we have numerous eyewitnesses to the incident, to the shooting of Michael Brown. And I tend to believe those eyewitnesses, and what they are reporting. And I also have serious concerns about the local prosecutors, about their ability to fairly prosecute this case in the interests of justice -- to deliver justice to this community or to Michael Brown's family. And I say that because we have a track record. We have something to look at in previous incidents of police shootings, where there was no prosecution, where it was claimed to be a good shooting.

If there's any such thing as a good police shooting, and then you showed footage of the shooting from yesterday in St. Louis City. I hope that the federal government takes a look at that shooting also and makes a determination whether it was a good police shooting or not.

TAPPER: We'll be talking with the St. Louis City police chief about that shooting in a second. I know you have to go, Congressman, because you're meeting with the Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel, you are concerned about how militarized the police have become. What are you going to tell Secretary Hagel?

CLAY: Well, I'm going to share with Secretary Hagel some concerns that have been raised by my constituents and by me as far as what I saw several nights out there on West Florissant where you had heavily armed police tactical units pointing it these sophisticated weapons at innocent protesters, my constituents.

I got a call yesterday from a Marine vet who is done two tours of duty in the Afghanistan and he says that if in Afghanistan, they pointed their weapons at unarmed civilians, they would be court-martialed. So apparently this policy has to change.

TAPPER: Congressman Lacy Clay, thank you so much for your time. Good luck with your meeting with the secretary of defense. Coming up next, the U.S. attorney general meets Michael Brown's family. How confident are they now that here will be a full and fair investigation? We'll ask their attorney coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper live in sweltering Ferguson, Missouri. Attorney General Eric Holder says he came to Ferguson yesterday not only to ease tensions, but to try to restore faith in the justice system for the many skeptical citizens here.

He also met with Michael Brown's parents to assure them personally that the investigation into their son's death would be fair and independent. But did his words have an impact?

Joining me now live is Daryl Parks. He is an attorney for Brown's parents. Mr. Parks, thanks for joining us. What can you tell us about the meeting that the family had with the attorney general?

DARYL PARKS, CO-COUNSEL FOR MICHAEL BROWN'S FAMILY: Well, first of all, the meeting on yesterday was really probably a culmination of the attorney general's involvement in this case. Certainly he had a one- on-one meeting with them, did not allow the counsel in the meeting with them.

And it was a meeting just to express his condolences to the family, which we believe is certainly decent and in order, and a kind gesture on his part. I will stay the Department of Justice became involved in this case last week when we met with the U.S. attorney's office for the eastern district of Missouri and with representatives from the Civil Rights Section of the Department of Justice from Washington, D.C. as well as the FBI agents.

So he's had a very robust effort on the part of the department as early as last week and certainly I think him coming just added credence to the fact that this is a very important matter for him, for the country, to give this community some confidence in the judicial system.

So we really appreciate him coming. It was a very proper gesture on the part of the United States government and we're glad that Attorney General Holder decided to come.

TAPPER: Mr. Parks, what does justice look like for the Brown family? What if the grand jury decides there is not enough evidence to indict Officer Wilson on any crime and he is able to continue being a police officer?

There is -- in other words, there's a thorough hearing and evidence is brought before the grand jury, but it doesn't result in what I think you and the Brown family want. Is that not justice?

PARKS: It's not justice, Jake. You know, when I sit there and I watch the video that happened that day and see that kid laying in the middle of the street, when I listen to the witnesses, all of them who tell a very similar story what happened in this case.

When I looked at his body as we did this autopsy on this kid and to see how he was shot in his head in a manner that could only be an execution style and how the witnesses describe him trying to give in.

It was very apparently that the officer hit him with the bullets and he continued to shoot this kid in the head. I believe that this guy should have been arrested a long time ago. I have every confidence in the world that he's going to be convicted for what he did to Michael Brown.

TAPPER: Daryl Parks, thank you so much. Look forward to having you on the show again. And we should note that Anderson Cooper will have Michael Brown's parents on his show later this evening.

Coming up, another fatal shooting by police this week in this area from just a few miles from where I'm standing in Ferguson, Missouri. As new video of the incident is released, does it match with the police department's version of events? Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper here in Ferguson, Missouri, just a few miles from here, a 25-year-old black man was shot and killed by two white St. Louis police officers outside a convenience store just earlier this week, Tuesday.

Police released this cell phone footage of the shooting from Tuesday. It's prompted questions about the initial accounts from police. It's now clear from this video that the version that the police chief initially gave about the story that the man, quote, "pulled out a knife and came at the officers gripping and holding it high is not accurate."

There are other questions, of course, about that shooting of a man that the neighborhood knew to be emotionally distressed including why the two officers shot him nine times and shooting of Michael Brown. Just what the exactly are cops taught to do if they feel their lives are threatened?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER (voice-over): Since the shooting death of Michael Brown 12 days ago as well as the police shooting of another African-American man in St. Louis on Tuesday, there has been a new focus on when police are supposed to use deadly force when they believe they are facing a threat.

BILL JOHNSON, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF POLICE ORGANIZATIONS: The general rule of thumb everywhere in the country is keep firing until the threat is stopped.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shooting people down like dog in the street.

TAPPER: New video released late Wednesday shows the final moments for a 25-year-old man who the police chief says was behaving erratically and holding a knife. Cajeeme Powell is seen here on Tuesday in a convenience store surveillance tape. A 911 call from the store said he stole small items. Minutes later another call to 911.

UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: A young man with some khaki pants and blue hooded shirt.

TAPPER: This time describing a weapon.

UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: He had a knife in his hands.

TAPPER: Authorities say he then stepped towards police holding a knife and the police shot and killed him.

(on camera): The whole deadly confrontation takes fewer than 20 seconds. Powell standing here tells the police officers to shoot him, to kill him and makes his way up here to the parking lot where he begins to make his way directly towards the police officers.

It's at approximately this spot where he is shot and he lands and stumbles down onto the ground and lies dead here. The question is, just how far was he from the police officers? What kind of threat did he pose to them?

And this is where our amateur sleuthing falls short because we don't know exactly where Powell was standing when he was shot and we do not know the exact location of the officers. But just to give you an idea of distances here, we believe he was shot somewhere around here and this tape measure is 16 feet long.

(voice-over): Sixteen feet may seem far, but for police, even that distance may not be snuff. Not enough to feel safe. There is no hard and fast rule, but some officers use 21 feet as a rule of thumb. If someone with a weapon is within that distance, they can get the officers before the police can stop them.

JOHNSON: You can be up to 20 feet away and close within just a second or two close that. That's all the time the officer has to react.

TAPPER: The deaths of both Brown and Powell have had members of the public asking why don't the officers shoot to wound aiming for the legs or the hands?

JOHNSON: The officer has to shoot at what he's most likely to hit. That's going to be the center of the person, the center mass of the person. And unfortunately, working up and into the person's head.

TAPPER: You may not like these protocols. They might seem wrong to you, but this is what many officers are taught. The question, of course, do these regulations among other factors lead to further distrust between some communities and the police.

HOWARD BRONNER, FERGUSON, MISSOURI RESIDENT: They wonder why these young men run from them because they're scared of what might happen.

TAPPER: Officers of course, are fearful too, citing FBI statistics that 27 police officers were killed in the line of duty last year.

JOHNSON: People go out there with the mind-set that police are out there hunting down civilians or killing unarmed men because it's somehow, something they will do or enjoy. That's just a sick thought, but it's an inaccurate thought.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER: Let's bring in St. Louis Police Chief Sam Dotson to answer questions about that shooting. First of all, Chief, I want to give you an opportunity to answer the question why you initially said his hand was held high. The tape obviously shows it wasn't.

CHIEF SAM DOTSON, ST. LOUIS POLICE: That's easy. When I was on the scene two days ago, I talked to witnesses. Witnesses told us that's what they saw.

TAPPER: Not the officers, other witnesses.

DOTSON: That's correct. I talked to witnesses. Where they're standing, what they remember clearly it wasn't the officer's statements as I read them afterwards said the suspect was holding a knife, not in this gesture. As you can imagine, the first reports have some inaccuracies in them.

Once we get a complete picture, that's one of the reasons why I wanted to make sure the videos got out as quickly as we could so the community knows we're trying to be transparent and re-create what happened in the last few minutes there.

TAPPER: Now that you see the video, is that a good shooting? Did your officers follow protocol? Would you show that video as an example to trainees about how to handle a situation like that? DOTSON: We saw the expert earlier talked about 21 feet is a rule we use. The reaction time of a suspect with a knife, armed with a knife to an officer, if the officer doesn't react in that distance, it could be fatal to the officer. I think police officers have a right and expectation at the end of the day to go home after their shift is over.

TAPPER: Sure, but why not use tasers?

DOTSON: Certainly that is an option. Tasers aren't 100 percent. They require two probes to make contact with the skin. If one of those probes misses that suspect is still coming towards you with a knife, your life's in danger.

TAPPER: Why nine bullets? Certainly it didn't take nine bullets to stop Mr. Powell in his tracks.

DOTSON: The officers is fired until they thought the aggression was over. We're reviewing this case. We have a criminal investigation going on and an internal affairs investigation going on to see if any of our protocols were involved. The message is we want to get to the answers in the bottom of it too.

TAPPER: You understand there are a lot of people who see this video and I understand the video doesn't show all the facts. It compresses a lot of the space and it doesn't tell the details of the knife and the rules that police are supposed to, they're taught to follow. But can you understand why somebody would see that and say God, there must have been some other way to defuse the situation other than killing him.

DOTSON: Absolutely. I understand they would say that. We teach the use of force continue, to start with command presence, verbal commands, open hand techniques, but we also teach to be able to protect yourself and to protect your life.

Use the least amount of force necessary to overcome the resistance. The officers obviously felt in that situation that a taser may have worked, may not have worked. They were concerned about it. They went to their next option.

TAPPER: One of the other criticisms I've heard from people in the neighborhood is because there really isn't the kind of community policing there is in other parts of the country, those officers did not know this young man. They did not know he had mental problems. They did not know that maybe he didn't pose the kind of threat that he seemed to at that moment.

DOTSON: And that's a great point. I would kind of disagree with you a little bit. We do great community policing --

TAPPER: They didn't know him though.

DOTSON: No, they did not. The two people that called 911 didn't know him either and didn't tell the officers there was mental illness possibly in play here. That's why we provide the dispatch tape and 911 tapes.

We were told something was stolen and he was armed with a knife. I think that's a little bit of a jump and a little bit unfair. There are 318,000 residents in the city of St. Louis to think that you could possibly know each one of them. We know a lot of people and we have a lot of relationships.

TAPPER: We address this in the peace, but I just want to ask you specifically since we have you, a lot of people see that video and say or they hear about the Michael Brown case and they say just shoot him in the leg. Why do you have to kill him? Shoot him in the leg.

DOTSON: Again, as the expert said it's not like it is in the movies. It's not like it is in Hollywood. Adrenaline, tunnel vision, nerves, everything comes into play. If you miss and you're shooting at a smaller target, a knee, elbow, and you miss that suspect is still coming at you, still threatening your life. My officers have the expectation and I want them to go home at the end of the day to their families.

TAPPER: But you think that was a good shooting based on what you know.

DOTSON: We're doing an investigation to make sure it is. Because I've seen the video just like you've seen, the distance make sure they followed our protocols. That's why we do an investigation and that's why we let the community see what we see. So we can come to a conclusion.

TAPPER: Chief, I appreciate your coming and answering our questions. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

Coming up next, $130 million or he dies. That ransom demand from ISIS terrorists who were holding American, James Foley. So what kind of negotiations were going on behind the scenes to free him or any?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper live in Ferguson, Missouri. Now let's go back to our World Lead, that horrific beheading of American James Foley by the terrorists known as ISIS, a horrific group. The secretary of defense today said they posed a threat like nothing we've seen before.

The Vatican confirms to CNN that Pope Francis just telephoned the parents of James Foley to offer his condolences for the horrible loss of their son. We also know that before this 40-year-old war reporter was executed by the vicious al Qaeda offshoot, the jihadists tried to squeeze a ransom out of the United States.

More than $130 million in exchange for his life according to Foley's former employer, "The Global Post." The U.S., of course, has a policy of not negotiating with terrorists, but the White House now says there was a rescue attempt to save Foley and other ISIS hostages. A special operation was launched early summer but ultimately failed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHUCK HAGEL, DEFENSE SECRETARY: In operation, by the way, was a flawless operation, but the hostages were not there. So we'll do everything that we need to do that the American people would expect from their leaders to continue to do everything we can to get our hostages back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Let's bring in Daniel O'Shea. He is a reserve Navy SEAL officer mobilized for operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. He also served as the coordinator for hostage working group at the U.S. Embassy in Iraq from 2004 to 2006.

Dan, good to see you. Did the U.S. fail James Foley by refusing to negotiate with the terrorists of ISIS?

DANIEL O'SHEA, FORMER NAVY SEAL: Well, the reality is, terrorist groups in particular and groups as a whole generally do not negotiate directly with the U.S. government. Those are done behind the scenes through third party intermediaries.

The reality is the U.S. have no play in this. A lot of the negotiations probably occurred, but they happened behind the scenes and not directly with the U.S. government.

TAPPER: Is it ever an option on the table -- I know officially we do not negotiate. But in reality, behind the scenes, are through conduits, do we ever pay anybody for hostages?

O'SHEA: Well, the policy is not that we don't negotiate with, quote/unquote, "kidnappers," but the policy we won't pay ransoms and won't make concessions. That used to be the policy. That seemed to have changed with the Bergdahl release.

Yes, you have to be able to negotiate and hear what their demands are. That ultimately tries to lead to release ultimately bringing the hostage home safely and alive is the goal.

TAPPER: With your expertise, walk us through how difficult it is to make a rescue attempt. When do you know the right time to make an attempt like this?

O'SHEA: Well, as you can imagine, it's an extraordinarily complex operation, but really it comes down to three simple things, proof of life. You want to know the hostage is still alive generally through the release of a video or picture with a date stamp of some sort.

Second is the guys going on this mission need to know exactly where the hostage is being held or hostages, where are they're being held and what condition they're in and the building and everything else.

You need to know exactly where they're being held and last the approval, the authority that you get the green light to launch the mission itself. Our folks are trained to do anything in this realm, but really all of those three factors need to be in play before you can launch a rescue mission.

TAPPER: The White House and the Pentagon released information details about this failed rescue attempt only after there were media questions because information had already come out.

Congressman Buck McKeon who is the chairman of the House Armed Services Committee. He is calling for an investigation into those leaks saying in a statement, quote, "disclosure of these missions put our troops at risk, reduces the likelihood that future missions will succeed and risks the lives of hostages and informants alike."

Do you think it was a mistake for the White House and the Pentagon to have given any information at all?

O'SHEA: Listen it, releasing information about classified operations serves no tactical or strategic value. It doesn't help those folks who have to launch future missions. I'm at a loss of words why there's so much information coming out.

Even after the fact that even if a report came out that a rescue mission was launched, the Pentagon issued a line called plausible deniability. There were hundreds of missions launched in Iraq on behalf of hostages that never were aired nor should they.

They serve no benefit and certainly not to the hostages that are still being held to the operators that have to go do that mission. It shows your hand to the folks holding them.

That they need to step up their game and increasing security around the hostages themselves. This only complicates the situation in my personal experience.

TAPPER: And that's difficult, of course, because there are still hostages being held right now. Daniel O'Shea, thank you so much for your time.

Make sure to follow me on Twitter @jaketapper and also at the leadcnn. That's it for THE LEAD in Ferguson, Missouri. I'm Jake Tapper. I now turn you over to Brianna Keilar. She is filling in for Wolf Blitzer in "THE SITUATION ROOM" back in Washington, D.C. -- Brianna.