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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Police Report Released on Ferguson Shooting; ISIS Threat; Interview with Missouri State Representative Courtney Allen Curtis; Hamas Leader: We Did Kidnap the 3 Israeli Teens; Russian Convoy Rolls into Ukraine

Aired August 22, 2014 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: On Monday, Michael Brown will be laid to rest. But the divisive issues raised by his shooting death, well, they are not going anywhere.

I'm Jake Tapper. This is THE LEAD.

The national lead, 10 days after it was written, a police report is released on the shooting of unarmed 18-year-old Michael Brown. It gives us names. It gives us places. But it does not answer important questions.

The grand jury hearing evidence right now with officer Darren Wilson's future hanging in the balance, along with the future of these streets. But is this a case where it's almost impossible to convict?

And the world lead. They are butchers who decapitated an American journalist. Does the United States, the most powerful military in the world, know how to take the terrorists of ISIS out? And will it?

Welcome to THE LEAD.

We're coming to you live from Ferguson, Missouri, with our national lead, the investigation into the shooting of 18-year-old Michael Brown. We're also watching, of course, another major international story, the threat of the terrorist group ISIS.

U.S. military options for taking on a terror organization just described as apocalyptic by the top general in the U.S. after the shocking beheading of James Foley -- another U.S. journalist is being held prisoner right now, along with other hostages, but we will begin here in Ferguson today.

Tomorrow will mark two weeks since Michael Brown was shot and killed. The streets have been calmer, but we are no closer to settling the issue that brought chaos to the city streets and nights of shootings, fires, tear gas, Molotov cocktails, looting, and an initial militarized police response many considered to have fueled the fires.

A new report on the shooting is finally out, a report that was not released for 10 days and may only infuriate critics of a police department already blamed for a racial divide in this community and for protecting officer Darren Wilson. Legal analysts are starting to take a look at the likely case the

grand jury is hearing about officer Wilson, and many are starting to conclude that convicting the officer may be near impossible. Today, we learned the makeup of the grand jury, three African-Americans and nine whites.

Last night, I spoke with Missouri State Senator Maria Chappelle-Nadal, who represents most of Ferguson. And she fears a not-guilty verdict could unleash hell upon this town and that the violence may not be limited to Ferguson.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARIA CHAPPELLE-NADAL (D), MISSOURI STATE SENATOR: I was talking to one of my constituents who said, hey, listen, if you think Ferguson was bad a week ago, just be prepared for the entire city to have looting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: But the reality is getting a conviction against officer Wilson, assuming this case even makes it to the trial phase, would be an immense uphill battle for prosecutors.

Joining me now to discuss this is it Paul Butler, a professor at Georgetown University Law School and a former federal prosecutor.

Professor Butler, as always, thanks so much for being here.

Explain from a legal standpoint the many obstacles prosecutors are up against in a case like this.

PAUL BUTLER, PROFESSOR, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF LAW: The hardest thing would on that the defendant is a police officer.

Often, jurors are extremely sympathetic to police officers. They think even if he made a mistake, he's got the hardest job in the world. So they often want to cut police officers some slack.

TAPPER: We still have so many facts to learn about this case. We know that officer Wilson suffered at the very least swelling to his face from the struggle that took place in the car. How do self- defense laws in cases like these factor in?

BUTLER: So what the prosecution has to prove is that officer Wilson believed that his life was in danger and that that belief was reasonable.

So it's not enough if officer Wilson just on his own thought that. A reasonable person would also have to think, unless I shoot this guy, he's going to kill me.

TAPPER: And how does eyewitness testimony play into this? I ask particularly since we have heard varying accounts of what happened, although all the eyewitnesses from the neighborhood who have come forward to the media so far seem to have a fairly consistent story, but there may be many witnesses that we don't know about yet.

BUTLER: First of all, eyewitness system is notoriously unreliable.

When we look at the false convictions that have later been overturned, including in death penalty cases, it's often because of eyewitness testimony that was just flat-out wrong. The other thing is, it's not unusual when a case goes to trial that there are conflicting stories; 95 percent of cases plea.

So when a case goes to trial, that means that each side has a version to tell. The jurors just have to look at these conflicting stories and decide which one they believe.

TAPPER: The racial makeup of the grand jury, nine whites, three African-Americans, talk about how that might factor into the way an indictment will or will not be handed down against officer Wilson.

BUTLER: Jake, I don't think the race or gender dynamics of the grand jury here are that big a deal. The grand jury, unlike a regular jury, doesn't have to reach a unanimous verdict. It's just a majority verdict. And then the standard is lower than at a trial. The standard for a grand jury is probable cause.

That's like if the jurors think 51 percent it probably happened, then they're allowed to indict.

TAPPER: As a prosecutor, are there any hard and fast rules when it comes to whether whites or blacks or men or women, how they tend to see a situation liking this when it's a white police officer and a young African-American man?

BUTLER: Well, we know from people's life experiences and from the polls that we're seeing about Ferguson that African-Americans and white people are looking at this case very differently. African- Americans often are much more suspicious of the police. They're less likely to believe the police, in part because they have had more negative experiences with the police.

You know, often white folks, their experience with the police is, you know, they have got the cat out of the tree. African-Americans, they locked up my dad. So, yes, we would like to think that race doesn't matter, but even in cases like this, especially in cases like this, race matters.

TAPPER: Paul Butler from Georgetown Law School, thank you so much.

BUTLER: Always a pleasure.

TAPPER: Nearly two weeks since Michael Brown was shot and killed, and only now are we getting a first look at the police report and somehow the release of more information for many is adding more question marks to this case.

There are still gaping holes where we don't know the what happened. In fact, Ferguson police never even filed an incident report on the confrontation between Brown and officer Wilson. CNN justice reporter Evan Perez joins me now.

Evan, have we seen a written account of what exactly happened in that encounter that led to the shooting?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: There's still no public report of exactly what went down.

What we do have is several pages of documents from the Saint Louis County Police Department, which is doing the investigation right now. And we have a few pages which we're going to show you. The first one is the first report of the shooting, which is the -- officer Wilson on Canfield Drive at 12:07 p.m.

TAPPER: He calls it in himself.

PEREZ: He calls it in. And this has been an officer-involved shooting.

And then, thereafter, we get the first list of dispatches from the county police, which are sending units to the scene to try to make sure that they can control the situation. So we see a bunch of dispatches of officers three minutes after the shooting that takes place.

We see later on, pretty much as the evening goes on, you can tell when things start getting heated. And somewhere around 8:30 p.m., things are getting heated. There's a lot of people in the neighborhood who have now gotten angry about what's going on and so they have sent a dozen or a couple dozen police officers to the scene to try to help secure the situation.

We do have some pages that were redacted, you know, from the report. They say this is part of the investigation and is not something that can be released under Missouri's sunshine law, Jake.

TAPPER: But it's -- the incident report, as far as we know, it's Saint Louis police doing it, not Ferguson police.

PEREZ: That's right. Exactly.

The police officers, the homicide detectives from Saint Louis County came in and interviewed officer Wilson. They have interviewed him twice, once immediately right after and then a little while afterwards. We don't know exactly what that interview says. He did not produce a report, which is what they say is their common protocol.

TAPPER: Common protocol. And union representatives I believe and lawyers tell police officers in situations like this don't file a police report.

PEREZ: Right, exactly, because then you will have multiple accounts and maybe things that will conflict with each other and you don't want that, exactly, you know, for that to come back in, in a trial.

TAPPER: Also, I would imagine, self-incrimination and a little CYA. Any lawyer would say that.

PEREZ: Right. Exactly. Exactly. You have detectives who are doing the investigation, so it turns into from you're a police officer to now you're being treated as a suspect basically.

TAPPER: Very interesting. Evan Perez, thank you so much.

Coming up: the money pouring in as thousands donate to a fund for officer Darren Wilson. Will that growing support have an impact on the community here in Ferguson?

Plus, the defense secretary says it is beyond anything the U.S. has ever seen, a group of highly trained, well-funded, ruthless terrorists intent on killing Americans -- coming up, new details on plans being made right now at the Pentagon to take ISIS out.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

And we are, as we have been all week, live from Ferguson, Missouri. There has been, thankfully, a noticeable shift here in the mood of the protests for Michael Brown, with far less focus on the mayhem and more on the message.

But we're also seeing an increased show of support for officer Darren Wilson from the community outside Ferguson.

Joining me now is Missouri State Representative Courtney Allen Curtis.

Representative Curtis, thanks so much for joining us.

Tell me, are you concerned at all by the support that seems to be building outside of Ferguson for officer Wilson? We have seen some pro-Wilson protesters show up at the marches and then, obviously, there has been I think $250,000 raised for his defense fund through GoFundMe. Does that bother you?

COURTNEY ALLEN CURTIS (D), MISSOURI STATE REPRESENTATIVE: No, not at all.

I mean, just in politics, you are going to have people on both sides. We don't have all of the facts as of yet. So, it's only likely that people would end up on both sides. And just like there is support for Mike Brown in getting justice, there would obviously be support for the officer as well.

TAPPER: Well, you know, you say we don't have all the facts, but the people marching and a lot of elected representatives that I've heard from here act as if they do have all the facts. I agree with you, we don't.

CURTIS: Right. I mean, it's important to remain objective at this standpoint but the demonstrations that you're seeing are a part of a larger frustration with the police in general and before today, or before this the past couple of weeks, there hasn't been a platform for voicing opinions with regards to the police.

TAPPER: You're going to be going to the funeral on Monday?

CURTIS: Most likely unless the family doesn't want us there. We want to respect, you know, them in this time of need. If they want us there, we'll be there. Otherwise, we'll respect their wishes and not be there.

TAPPER: Have you heard from anybody in the community who says, you know, all the elected representatives around here are getting way too far out ahead on this. You know? Officer Darren Wilson is a member of the Missouri community too and he's just like Michael Brown is entitled to the presumption of innocence? Have you heard from anybody saying that?

CURTIS: No, I mean, what you have to realize is that there are individuals from all over the geographical region that have come to bear on this situation and they're out front. The people that actually represent Ferguson or, you know, working in the backgrounds to ensure that we keep the tensions down, to ensure that we get solutions, real solutions that we can implement, as well as insuring we maintain the situation as best as possible.

TAPPER: I understand that a lot of people in the community, I assume you're one of them, as well, were really pleased with Attorney General Eric Holder coming here and reassuring people the federal government is launching its own investigation, launching its own investigation. The FBI has conducted more than 400 door knocks, interviewed more than 200 people according to our justice report Evan Perez.

Does it bother you President Obama has not been here -- and I understand presidents work wherever they go on vacation -- but he's been very visibly golfing and relaxing with his family? Does that bother you at all?

CURTIS: Not at all. You know, the Ferguson and the Mike Brown situation is just one situation. The president is the president of the entire United States. So, just as he has other things to tend to, it's important that he send the resources. He sent the resources and the attorney general and we appreciate that. They've brought every resource that they can to bear on the situation.

Actually, the president coming here, it wouldn't necessarily do anything in terms of it helping us get to justice sooner. So, I'm comfortable with the actions that he's taken today, as well as the government.

TAPPER: You talk about getting to justice sooner. We've heard people talk about that and heard the protesters chanting no justice, no peace. Here is what in the view of the family of Michael Brown, what they told Anderson Cooper last night justice looks like to them. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL BROWN SR., MICHAEL BROWN'S FATHER: He's got to go to jail, so we can have some type of peace. He's still walking around with pay. That's not -- that's not fair to us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Jail. That's what they want, jail. That's what a lot of people here want.

And yet, legal analysts say convicting a police officer in this type of situation, indicting a police officer in this type of situation -- very, very difficult.

Do you think that the elected representatives and the leaders of this area need to start dampening expectations for people in this community that in fact, there might not be an indictment handed down?

CURTIS: Yes, absolutely. I mean, there are multiple types of justice. I don't understand but I can see where the family is coming from in wanting jail. Jail alone, you know, is just a step forward. The civil rights violations if there are some, that's another type of justice. Ultimately, in the end we want to make sure this stays about Mike Brown and insuring that justice is given but what that justice looks like, we don't necessarily know.

But yes, we are working in the background to make sure the people know there are multiple types of justice and you know, if we get something that's a start and the long-term solutions that are implemented after that, you know, will insure that justice, you know, is available to everyone going forward.

TAPPER: State Representative Curtis, appreciate your time.

Coming up, Hamas finally admitting they did it, taking what you might call credit, claiming responsibility for kidnapping and killing -- murdering three Israeli teenagers earlier this summer. Why are they confessing now and why is the person confessing contradicted by other Hamas leaders? We'll go live to Gaza next.

Plus, Vladimir Putin says a convoy of Russian trucks in Ukraine is for a humanitarian mission. The White House -- well, they say they're not buying it. Is this the first stage of a full-blown Russian invasion?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

More on the crisis here in Ferguson, Missouri, coming up.

But first, let's turn to some world news. It was the kidnapping and killing that helped spark the war and now a senior Hamas leader living in exile in Turkey is claiming that Hamas was responsible for the deaths of those three Israeli teens that were abducted in the West Bank in June and later found dead, murdered.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The popular will was exercised throughout our occupied land, and culminated in the heroic operation by the Qassam brigades in imprisoning the three settlers in Hebron.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Today, we saw another ruthless example of Hamas in action, a masked unman with the group executed 18 Palestinians suspected of collaborating with Israel, according to Hamas media.

The shocking news comes after an Israeli airstrike yesterday that left a crater the size of a neighborhood block in Gaza, killing three senior Hamas leaders and, of course, the human agony in that part of the world shows no sign of slowing, the IDF says a 4-year-old Israeli boy was just killed in mortar attacks near the border with Gaza today.

Palestinian officials say 76 Palestinians have been killed since the two sides resumed hostilities on Tuesday. Since this conflict began, 68 people have been killed on the Israeli side, 64 soldiers, four civilians. Along with 2,092 Palestinians, according to officials in Gaza.

The United Nations estimates that around 70 percent of those Palestinians were civilians, Israelis say it's closer to 50 percent.

Our Ian Lee is in Gaza watching all of this unfold.

Ian, why is this news about the teens coming now after all these weeks of war?

IAN LEE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the timing is peculiar, Jake. And really coming from Saleh Arouri who is part of the Hamas political bureau in Turkey.

But really what we're wondering is why someone from Hamas in either Qatar or here in Gaza have not commented on this statement. We would expect something from other leadership members, people with more clout to come forward to say something. We still -- we haven't heard anything, and I really think that speaks volumes to the situation but Hamas leader coming out and claiming responsibility like we heard, today, and as we've been following, as well 18 Palestinians were executed by Hamas. These were people who were seen as collaborators with Israel, people who they say betrayed the country.

It was interesting looking at videos released, these were people blindfolded likely to be because to prevent embarrassment to their families but also could be concealing their identities as it may show just how far Israeli intelligence may have penetrated Hamas.

But the one thing that they did want to show was these executions in public, sending a strong message to anyone who may be thinking of collaborating with Israel that if you do, you will be executed, as well. Now, Hamas did send out a fig leaf of sorts to people who they say could be collaborators saying if you do come in, that we will show you mercy although it's unsure what type of mercy that is.

But this is a country, this is an area or rather Gaza is in a state of war. People who are seen as helping the enemy are executed and that's what we are seeing right here. TAPPER: Ian Lee, thank you so much. Please stay safe.

On to other world news, Moscow says, hey, it's just humanitarian aid for the rebels but Ukraine is calling a convoy of Russian trucks that just crossed its border a, quote, "direct invasion." Russian President Vladimir Putin says he had to take action to move aid into eastern Ukraine despite what he calls Kiev's blatant attempts to stop that aid. But now, the Pentagon is demanding that those Russian trucks turn around immediately.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REAR ADM. JOHN KIRBY, PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: We've made our position very, very clear that they should not be doing this under the guise of you humanitarian convoy, to use that as an excuse to cross the border in an unauthorized way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: The Pentagon says it's not sure what is exactly inside these white painted trucks but threatened more economic sanctions could be in store if Russia does not heed the warning.

Coming up next, American James Foley kidnapped and held in Syria by the same terrorists who are murdering innocent civilians in Iraq. So, is the United States ready for airstrikes inside Syria to put a stop to ISIS?

Stay with us. We're talking about that next.

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