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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Interview With Florida Senator Marco Rubio; U.S. Bombs Al Qaeda Group In Syria; Up To 200,000 Refugees Flee ISIS

Aired September 23, 2014 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

MUASHER: -- of the region have with the Sunni tribes and convincing them not to support ISIS and to move away with them will be as crucial as the military campaign against them.

TAPPER: Defense news is reporting that Jordan agreed to join this coalition after uncovering a number of ISIS terrorists who crossed into Jordan from Iraq. The Jordanian government also reportedly uncovered a cell planning attacks in northern Jordan. Can you confirm that?

MUASHER: Yes. In fact, this is already public knowledge. A number of victims by ISIS infiltrate into Jordan were taken particularly in the next -- in the last few days. These were all repelled, including one that took place yesterday. I don't think the threat to Jordan is necessarily military. Jordan has a very strong army and I think it will be able to withstand any attack from ISIS. The real threat is cultural, as I said. There is a growing number of youth, not just in Jordan, but in the region, who are frustrated, who lack opportunity, who are, you know, flocking to radical forces like ISIS, particularly as these forces have money and are able to lure people out of a job into their ranks. That's the culture at war that we need to also worry about. Where is ISIS? I think literally it can be defeated, hopefully, will be defeated maybe in a few years. What is more important is that new ISIS do not come out.

TAPPER: Right.

MUASHER: And that is why you need to worry about things like, you know, an inclusive Iraqi government, the strengthening of the Iraqi army and the political and economic grievances that the region suffers from, et cetera.

TAPPER: Right. I agree. Marwan Muasher, former Jordanian foreign minister, thank you so much for your time. Nice having you on the show.

Airstrikes in Syria. The U.S. military calls them a success, but just how much did they slow down ISIS and will another round be coming tonight? I'll ask the President Obama's deputy national security adviser coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to "THE LEAD." Continuing with our world lead, of course, the Pentagon says last night's bombing raid on ISIS targets inside Syria is only the beginning, and the opening of a sustained campaign, it says, against the terror group that has made the war-torn nation its base of operation, so, just how far did the U.S. go from a humanitarian mission to rescue the Yazidis in Iraq to a war by any other name in Syria. On "60 minutes" Sunday, the president's former Defense Secretary Leon Panetta laid some of the blame at his former boss' feet.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTT PELLEY, CBS ANCHOR: In retrospect now, was not arming the rebels at that time a mistake?

LEON PANETTA, FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY: I think that would have helped and I think in part we paid a price for not doing that in what we see happening with ISIS.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: But, of course, it's not only the Hollywood slick hate spewing ISIS, that the U.S. has bombarded, the military also targeted an al Qaeda splinter group many people had never even heard of until recently, the Khorasan. Very quickly, Syria has become the worst neighborhood in the world with millions of innocent Syrians trapped or forced to run for their lives. So, just how does the administration plan to fight an entire region gone awry and how long will it take? Joining me now is Deputy White House National Security Adviser Tony Blinken. Tony, thanks for joining us, our justice correspondent Pamela Brown just reported that this al Qaeda splinter group, the Khorasan, can make bombs without metal. Is this the imminent threat that the administration is talking about?

TONY BLINKEN, DEPUTY NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Jake, we've been tracking this group for some time. This is the group of very battled- hardened al Qaeda veterans, some from Afghanistan and Pakistan, others from North Africa, Iraq, Iran, they have taken advantage of the chaos in Syria to create a safe haven. And as I said we've been tracking them and picking up very active plotting, and plotting that was directed not inside Syria or in Iraq, but in Europe and indeed in the United States. And so having developed the intelligence on them, having detected the plotting, having found out where they were, we took action against them.

TAPPER: And did the strikes last night take care of that imminent threat?

BLINKEN: Jake, I believe we've disrupted the threat, but we're still doing an assessment of what we've accomplished and we'll have more of that in the coming days.

TAPPER: I want to ask you about a couple of things that have just broken in the last hour. One, an Iranian official claims that the United States told Iran ahead of time about this air campaign. Is that true?

BLINKEN: Well, I think the president had told the world that on September 10th when he gave his speech, he said we were going to take action against ISIL wherever it was found, including in Syria. He also said, by the way, that we would build a broad coalition to do that. That's exactly what we've done. Five our countries flying with us last night. And he said we would begin not just a blunt ISIL's attacks, but begin to roll it back.

TAPPER: Right. But I mean -- like a more specific heads up.

BLINKEN: Specifically, specifically with the number of countries, including Iran, we indicated that we would be taking action. We obviously didn't say exactly when or where. We wanted to make sure that no one got in our way.

TAPPER: And the al Qaeda affiliate in Syria, the al Nusra Front, has reportedly posted on its website or on Twitter a statement saying that one of its leaders, of its trainers, a man called "The Turk," Abu Yousef al-Turki, was killed. Can you confirm that?

BLINKEN: You know, I've seen those reports. I can't confirm them. Obviously we are trying to run that down.

TAPPER: The term has been tossed around today, as a broad coalition, five Arab nations also flew alongside American fighter jets or assisted in some way last night. What commitments does the administration have going forward that this will continue and where is the one Muslim country in NATO, Turkey, in all of this?

BLINKEN: Well, Jake, first of all, the coalition is much broader even in the five countries that -- last night. More than 40 countries have signed up. And remember, this is a comprehensive effort. It's not just the military strikes, it's training and equipping local forces on the ground. It is doing something about the financing of ISIL. It is taking on the foreign fighters and, indeed, the president will be hosting a session at the United Nations this week on that subject. It's delegitimizing them, so countries are playing different roles doing different things. This is something that's going to be sustained. It has to be sustained over time and we're quite confident it will be.

TAPPER: The White House is saying the last night attacks were legal under the 2001 Authorization for Use of Military Force. And that's supposed to apply to groups that had a hand in planning September 11. How when talking about ISIS, does this apply here? They had nothing to do with 9/11.

BLINKEN: Jake, the 2001 Authorization for Use of Military Force applies to groups that -- planned and took part in 9-11 and associated forces. The founder of al-Qaeda in Iraq, the predecessor to ISIL, was a very close companion of bin Laden's before 9-11, after 9-11. And when we went into Iraq he formed al Qaeda in Iraq, and associated it directly with al Qaeda. So, it was an associated group. It attacked Americans for years in Iraq and then in 2013, it became ISIL. Al Qaeda in Iraq changed its name and became ISIL. It started to recruit other al Qaeda affiliates. Claiming that it was the rightful heir to bin Laden. So it is clearly an associated force of al Qaeda. The folks who attacked us on 9/11. And that's the basis upon which we have the authority to go after. TAPPER: Even if that association ended? I mean we know that al Qaeda

broke with ISIS.

BLINKEN: Well, again, they had a split but they -- ISIL claims that it is the rightful heir to bin Laden. It's been recruiting other al Qaeda affiliates to join in.

TAPPER: Why not get an authorization for use of force? Why not ask Congress to do that?

BLINKEN: Jake we said very clearly, and the president said, we would welcome it, if Congress wants to do that, we would work with Congress to produce exactly that, one -- an authorization that's more targeted and focused on ISIL. But it's something that, while we would welcome it, we don't require it, and so we're proceeding on the basis right now of the 2001 authorization.

TAPPER: And shockingly, Congress adjourned before taking that controversial action. Tony Blinken, thank you so much. I appreciate your time.

BLINKEN: Thanks for having me, Jake.

TAPPER: A source tells CNN that the recent plots against the U.S. by this new terrorist cell, Khorasan, we only picked up within the last week. So, how many more groups, other groups are plotting right now? We'll ask Senator Marco Rubio, a key member of the Senate Intelligence Committee, next.

Plus, the look on the faces says it all as many as 200,000 refugees escaped ISIS with barely more than the clothes on their backs and there's no end in sight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. The Politics Lead now, the airstrikes in Syria against ISIS and other targets have highlighted another terror group that may have been targeting the U.S. mainland.

The offshoot of al Qaeda known as Khorasan was mentioned for the first time today by President Obama. Some members of Congress have been briefed on the airstrikes and the threats these new splinter groups pose to the United States.

Let me bring in Republican Senator Marco Rubio of Florida. Senator, thanks so much for joining us. You're on the intelligence committee. We've learned about a U.S. attack last night against an al Qaeda offshoot that according to the U.S. government was posing an imminent threat to the United States. We reported on that threat. How imminent was it, do you think?

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R), FLORIDA: Well, we don't know, days, weeks, hours, whatever it may be, they are a serious threat. I mean, this is a group of very knowledgeable, experienced al Qaeda fighters who are in Syria not because they were looking to overthrow Assad in Syria. They are using it as an operational space. These groups require -- need to be somewhere where there's not a government pushing them out. So whether it's the tribal areas of Pakistan or before that in Afghanistan. Now it's Syria.

Any time there's a vacuum created anywhere in the Middle East that becomes a magnet for these sorts of terrorist groups that come in and operate from. They are a very serious threat and I'm glad that's being addressed as well.

TAPPER: A few months ago, of course, we hadn't heard of ISIS, ISIL or Khorasan, for that matter. Now the U.S. is dropping bombs on them. How many more splinter groups with Syria's capability are there?

RUBIO: It's a real risk, I mean, look at Libya right now. I mean, Libya has increasingly becoming an ungoverned space. I think you see groups emerging there. You've seen al Qaeda announcing a new affiliate in the Indian Peninsula with aspirations to Southeast Asia as well.

This is going to be an ongoing issue. I mean, these groups have splintered, but in many instances they have coordinated with one another. The face of Islamic fundamentalists, radical terrorists such as these has changed from one core group to multiple affiliates and affiliated groups around the world who continue to pose a real risk.

So I don't think this is going to be the end of the line here. There are multiple other groups that are increasingly of concern as well.

TAPPER: You've said that ground troops are needed. You prefer in an ideal world to have local ground troops. Do you see any local forces up to the task and, if not, do you think U.S. ground troops are ultimately going to need to go to Iraq and Syria?

RUBIO: Well, again, I remain hopeful that we're able to find local ground troops that can do the job. I think the Kurds are very capable. They certainly need more assistance in that regard.

I think that hopefully the Iraqis can rebuild their security forces to a new government that allows them to become more capable and we hope that more moderate elements will emerge in Syria not simply to defeat ISIL.

But if we wipe out ISIL, al Nusra, who is going to fill the vacuum, who is going to take their place? Because if you don't, you're back to where you are today with an ungoverned space that will attract fighters to be responsible to themselves.

What I'm saying is that virtually every military expert that has spoken out on this has said that the chances of local forces alone being able to defeat ISIL or any group for that matter on the ground is dubious at best.

I think it's important for the president to be honest to the American people that at some point in the future this might require some element of U.S. ground power in order to finish the job. We can't be in a position of saying, if the locals can't do it, ISIL gets to stay. TAPPER: I know you've been advocating a move that has been going on for quite some time. Not everybody in your party feels the same way. I know it's early, but there are polls that show Senator Rand Paul to be a potential standard bearer for your party in the 2016 election.

He's up in New Hampshire. He voted against the resolution last week. He says he does not support arming the Syrian rebels. You have a very different position than him. Does it bother you that he might become the standard bearer for your party in 2016?

RUBIO: This is a national security issue. I don't -- I understand political reporters and I don't mean you, I mean, in general covering this have to apply some sort of political lens to it.

But what we're talking about here is a very serious national security issue that we need to confront. It's not a trivial matter. It's not one that we should be analyzing from the point of view of what it means for the polls or elections per se.

This is about securing our country and allies as well. I'm going to be for what I believe is right, not just today but long term. And then there will be politics in the future and they may work out or may not in the short term.

But I want to be on the right side of these issues from a perspective, ten years from now and five years from now, not just five hours from now or five weeks from now.

TAPPER: Republican Senator Marco Rubio from Florida, thank you so much. Appreciate your time.

RUBIO: Thanks.

TAPPER: How ruthless is ISIS? Just take a look at the crush of refugees desperate to escape these terrorists. As many as 200,000 men, women, children on the Turkish border. Right now, will they be allowed in? We will go there live, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. Continuing with our world lead. Syrian refugees are crossing into Turkey in droves in a desperate attempt to escape the wrath of ISIS.

Some literally are being carried across the border after a long gruelling journey. Among the hundreds of thousands fleeing Syria, of course, are many children who have gone days without food and many families fled their villages with only the clothes on their backs.

It's unclear how long Turkey will keep this border open given the strain that the influx of refugees is putting on local communities. CNN senior international correspondent, Arwa Damon is live near the Syria/Turkey border.

Arwa, what have conditions been like for these thousands of Syrians trying to escape to safety?

ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Incredibly dire, Jake. Especially since Friday when we saw upwards of 150,000 Syrian Kurds fleeing and ISIS push into Northern Syria where they rapidly took over a number of villages.

The scenes at the border, children desperately grabbing for bottles of water. They had spent, in some cases, days. At least the overnight waiting to be allowed to cross into Turkey.

Turkish authorities trying to maintain as much control over the situation as they can. Some women we were speaking to breaking down into tears saying it's not just the horror of ISIS that we have to flee. It's the fact that we left our homes behind.

We left everything that we spent our entire lives trying to build up in the hands of these terrorists and we don't know when we're going to be able to go back home or if we're going to be able to go back home. This is a crisis that is only growing more dire and more desperate by the day -- Jake.

TAPPER: What are you hearing from Syrian activists in terms of what is being done with these people and how the world is helping or needs to help them more?

DAMON: Well, you know, this morning it was quite interesting. This shift in sentiment that we've been hearing from the Syrian activists that we've been speaking to. In the morning when these air strikes were happening overnight, people in Syria waking up to this information.

There was a sense of relief that finally the U.S. and this coalition that it has built up were actually doing something. But as the day went on and more and more reports came out that the U.S. and this coalition of not just targeted ISIS.

But other groups as well, like the al Nusra front, which has many occasions been fighting against ISIS and various reports of civilian casualties coming out in Aleppo and the province especially, there's been something of a shift in sentiment.

The mood right now much more one of apprehension. This coming from the Syrians we've been speaking to, questioning what the U.S. and its allies true intentions really are.

Also, concerns that if these airstrikes do continue and if we are able to confirm these civilian casualties, we could be seeing another wave of refugees, this time not just fleeing ISIS, but fleeing these airstrikes as well.

TAPPER: Arwa Damon in Turkey, thank you so much. Appreciate it. Stay safe. Follow me on twitter @jaketapper.

That's it for THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper. I now turn you over to Wolf Blitzer. He's in "THE SITUATION ROOM" but not next door. He's live from the United Nations in New York City -- Wolf.