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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Will Baghdad Fall To ISIS?; Protesters, Police Face Off In Ferguson

Aired October 13, 2014 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome back to THE LEAD. In our continuing coverage of the fight against ISIS, choking plumes of smoke, bombs and gunfire punctuating daily prayers. That is the scene in the Syrian city of Kobani on the border with U.S. ally and NATO member Turkey.

But the focus of the Obama administration these days is less on Syria and more on the country that the United States spent nearly a decade and more than 4,000 American lives trying to save Iraq.

The chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Martin Dempsey just admitted that ISIS terrorists got within 15 miles of Baghdad's airport, so close that the U.S. military had to send low-flying Apache attack helicopters to try and beat them back.

And the threat continues to this hour, the Pentagon insisting that Iraqi security forces maintain firm control of Baghdad and that rumors of an imminent threat to the city are greatly exaggerated.

But ISIS already controls 80 percent of Anbar Province, which is right next door to Baghdad. According to our own Ben Wedeman who joins us now live from Baghdad as does Nick Paton-Walsh just miles away from the fight in Kobani on the Syrian-Turkey border.

Ben, I want to go to you first. More explosions in Baghdad today. IEDs killing at least 20 people, ISIS just miles away from the outskirts of the city. Is there an actual chance that Baghdad could fall?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Not at the moment, Jake. Baghdad is a big city mostly populated by Shia, who are very hostile to ISIS. We've been on the western perimeters of the city. They seem to be fairly well-defended. Some of Iraq's best units are in the Baghdad area.

Plus there are tens of thousands of armed and trained Shia militiamen as well who have been mobilized. So for ISIS, Baghdad would be too big to swallow. But these bombs that go off daily in the city are one source of preoccupation certainly for the Iraqi government and most likely for the Americans as well.

But you have to look a little further afield. In Anbar province, we saw a military base outside the town of Hitt, which fell last week today fall to ISIS. Now, according to the Iraqi military, the soldiers who abandoned that position did have a chance to burn the material, the hardware, the ammunition that they couldn't take with them.

But it's just another example, Jake, of the Iraqi army simply unable to hold its ground.

TAPPER: Discouraging. Nick Paton-Walsh, on the Turkey/Syria border, you were within earshot of the explosions rocking Kobani today, the Syrian town that's been under siege for weeks. Now the United States appear to be close to reaching a deal with Turkey to use one of the Turkish air bases as a launching pad for airstrikes.

But now we are told by the capital of Turkey there's no deal. What's going to happen here? Why is Turkey only semi-cooperating?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENION INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Those reports of U.S. officials talking about greater cooperation perhaps a little premature and it's being clear since the start of this that Turkey has a very clear agenda and very clear conditions for how it wants to get on board with a coalition effort.

Remember it's been living with the Syrian civil war and it's over spilled for three years now. They have over a million refugees in their country, which they're hosting. And whatever comes out of the Syrian civil war, Jake, they are going to have to live with that.

That's the resolution essentially of those Kurdish enclaves that have sprung up inside Syria. Turkey has been struggling with the Kurdish population it has and across its borders for decade.

Plus, they're very clear they want to get rid of the Syrian government of Bashar Al-Assad, considering him and his repression are part of the real problem here.

They want to certainly be sure that whatever comes out of this is something they're happy with because it's simply across their border. It's like the troubles in Mexico now for the United States -- Jake.

TAPPER: Ben, as you mentioned, Iraqi forces are not exactly to be relied upon. Iraqi forces abandoned another outpost in Anbar Province right next to Baghdad. Is there any reason to believe that when it comes down to it, as ISIS approaches Baghdad, Iraqi forces will dig in and fight?

WALSH: Keep in mind that the Iraqi forces around the defenses of Baghdad do have several teams of American advisers at Baghdad airport. There are those American Apache helicopters as well that as General Dempsey mentioned have been used before against ISIS.

And then there is, as I mentioned, the Shia militia are there and ready to go to the front lines if necessary. And of course then there's the whole Iranian angle. The Iranians have invested perhaps not in terms of money and lives as much as the United States in this Iraqi government.

But they do not want to see it fall. They have backed it to the hilt and they're not about to let ISIS overtake the capital of Iraq -- Jake. TAPPER: Nick, quickly if you could, President Obama's been insistent, of course, he is not going to consider U.S. boots on the ground, traditional combat troops, at least. Based on what you see, is that approach to the war keeping the United States from beating back ISIS?

WALSH: In many ways you insert U.S. ground troops into something as messy and extraordinarily complex as the Syrian civil war, you're going to add another irritant, another complication to a resolution there. But until there's some sort of ground force that Washington's happy with that can move in and push back ISIS after those air strikes, yes, they are going to come back.

Washington says that's fine, they're happy with that. They want to degrade them. They are not looking to take territory inside of Syria, but at the end of the day, if ISIS can keep on gaining ground, are they really being degraded, Jake?

TAPPER: Nick Paton Walsh on the Turkish-Syrian border. Ben Wedeman in Baghdad, thank you to both of you. Please stay safe.

Coming up, a tense weekend on the streets of Ferguson, Missouri, and St. Louis, Missouri, thousands gathering for demonstrations. Will some high-profile arrests sparked more protests?

Plus, a shakeup at the Vatican, why a meeting convened by Pope Francis has shocked some Catholic scholars for its relative openness for gays and lesbians and divorces? What does it mean for the future of the Catholic Church?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. In other national news, some came from hundreds of miles away to have their voices heard. For others, this is a moment unfolding right in their own backyards. Swarms of protesters are taking to the streets of Ferguson, Missouri, for what is being called moral Monday in honor of an unarmed black teenager who was shot and killed by police.

This was the scene today after a weekend-long build-up that's grown increasingly tense between police and protesters. There have been more than a dozen arrests including the author and activist, Cornell West.

Organizers of the protest have demanded the arrest of the officer who shot and killed 18-year-old Michael Brown in August, but the grand jury has yet to decide if Officer Darren Wilson acted in self-defense.

This case, of course, exposed a deep-seeded mistrust among African-Americans with the Ferguson Police Department. We were reminded of that last week when another teenager was shot and killed by a police officer just outside Ferguson in St. Louis.

Police say that teen was armed and fired at an off-duty cop, but some in the community say they don't buy it. Joining me now to talk about this is Sam Dotson. He is the St. Louis Metropolitan police chief. Chief Dotson, thank you so much for joining us and as always good

to see you.

CHIEF SAM DOTSON, ST. LOUIS METROPOLITAN POLICE: Thank you. Thank you very much for having me.

TAPPER: Chief Dotson, there was a stand-off on Saturday night and Sunday morning at a Quick Trip convenience store. You tweeted, quote, "Protesters now throwing rocks at the police, arrests have been made for continued illegal behavior."

Now protesters, as you know, say that they largely were peaceful and they issued a statement saying that instead of de-escalating rising tensions in the city, Chief Dotson's comments are inciting anger and making matters worse. What's your response?

DOTSON: Jake, I was just tweeting the facts as I saw them, what was happening to me what I was there because I was standing there. A group took over a parking lot at the convenience store, tried to gain entry, but the clerks locked the doors.

And a group of, I would say, about 50 sat down and blocked the entrances to the door and interlocked their arms. Clearly, they were there for some act of direct action or civil disobedience.

TAPPER: Do you see the protests unfolding over the last few days as largely peaceful? How would you characterize them?

DOTSON: I think they are. I say that because we had a tremendous march in downtown St. Louis on Saturday. A couple thousand people marching down the street held a rally in one of our plazas downtown exactly what we as law enforcement do, protect people's rights to have their first amendment heard. That's what happened.

But I think there are a group of people that are taking advantage of the stage and the platform that's been created here in Ferguson and in St. Louis to push their own agendas and their messages.

TAPPER: Now some of the police at these protests in St. Louis were wearing protective gear. I know you know that it is somewhat controversial. Obviously, officers want to be protected. But when there were protests in Ferguson and police in what seemed to be militarized positions to many observers were wearing riot gear, some were aiming guns.

Do you think it adds to the tension to have police wearing the special gear, covering their faces, for what's largely been a peaceful protest? How do you make that decision?

DOTSON: Let's start with Saturday when we had events in the city of St. Louis. People marched down the streets. Our officers were in their everyday uniform. Officers were on bike patrols riding their bikes.

So let's go back to the convenience store incident, police cars' windows were smashed out, police cars were surrounded. Officers had to fear for their safety to get out of the neighborhood quickly. There's always a cause and effect.

We take a relaxed posture until something happens that we have to escalate. I would always like to deescalate a situation, but when protesters are smashing out the windows of police cars while officers are in them, I have to protect the officers.

TAPPER: Chief, do you understand why so many African-Americans in the St. Louis area are suspicious of police?

DOTSON: I think we'd have to have our heads in the sand if we weren't. We have to continue to have the conversation about community-oriented policing, about transparency, having workforce that represent the communities we live in.

But those conversations are happening and they're falling on deaf ears. The situation we're in didn't manifest itself overnight. It's years and decades in the making. And now it's not going to be fixed by the switch of a light switch or the wave of a magic wand.

But those conversations are happening. We just have to sit at the table and in six months look back. This narrative written around Ferguson is still incomplete. It's not done yet.

We're at an important point where we can either make Ferguson a negative or turn it into a positive that really shapes the future of law enforcement and community relations for generations to come.

TAPPER: Police Chief Dotson, thank you so much for coming on the show. As always thanks for coming and answering my questions.

DOTSON: Thank you very much.

TAPPER: This programming not, CNN is famous for looking forward. But this week, we're looking back. CNN anchors are investigating our own pasts. Along the way, many of us are finding out exactly where we came from and truly telling the story of America.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: CNN, all next week, they traveled the world to chase the story but not just anyone's story, their own. The story of how they came to be.

ANTHONY BOURDAIN, CNN HOST, "PARTS UNKNOWN": I had a great, great, great, great grandfather come over to Paraguay around the 1850s.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST, "THE SITUATION ROOM": My grandparents died here.

ANNOUNCER: The story of their ancestors.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR, "NEW DAY": This is where my great grandmother was given up for adoption.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "AC360": My great grandfather's report card.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: These records go back 40 generations.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When we found out that there's people here related to us, that's when it felt real to me.

ANNOUNCER: Now they share those stories with you.

TAPPER: My colonial ancestors were on the wrong side.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR, "NEW DAY": It was like coming home.

ANNOUNCER: Join the familiar faces of CNN as they trace their roots. All next week starting Sunday on CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER: The Buried Lead now, it's been described as a stunning shift for the Catholic Church, the Vatican today talking about welcoming gays and lesbians into the church and even discussing the benefits of unmarried couples living together. That's coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. In the Buried Lead now, it's being called an earthquake at the Vatican. Bishops have drafted new language on the Catholic Church's attitudes towards homosexuality, divorce and birth control, shaking up some core Catholic teachings.

This comes a year and a half after Pope Francis was elected. It's his latest effort to transform the public face of the Catholic Church from gay marriage to women and sexual abuse, this pope seems determined to bring a new attitude to modern life and Catholicism.

Father James Martin, author of "Jesus, A Pilgrimage" joins us now to discuss this morning's news. Father Martin, thanks for joining us. You've described this new language as revolutionary.

Let's look at what the bishop said about homosexuality specifically, quote, "Homosexuals have gifts and qualities to offer to the Christian community without denying the moral problems connected to homosexual unions.

It has to be noted that there are cases in which mutual aid to the point of sacrifice constitutes a precious support in the life of the partners." Now bishops also raise the idea of supporting civil unions and unmarried couples living together. The meeting ends at the end of this week.

And the final report comes out in October. Practically speaking, what could this mean in terms of the church's attitude towards gays?

FATHER JAMES MARTIN, JESUIT PRIEST: Practically speaking it means a lot of gays and lesbians are going to feel a lot more welcome. The idea of talking about partners is new. The idea of talking about their love in any way in a positive way is brand new.

And towards the end of that document, they also say that the children of gay unions should not be punished. There have been cases in the United States where the children have been punished, kicked out of school, for example, those kinds of things so I would think that bishops and pastors will take note of that new tone.

TAPPER: So it's not a question of the church teaching being any different in terms of whether or not homosexuality is a sin, it's just a question of accepting homosexuals as sinners like everyone else is accepted who is a sinner?

MARTIN: I think it's a little more than that. You've never heard a Vatican document speak about gay relationships in any positive way. And so at one point it says their love is precious. That's brand new. And frankly I don't know where it's going to go.

As you pointed out, it's only in the middle of the Senate. They have another document at the end and they have to come back again next year. But it's certainly opening the door to new discussions about these things. It is revolutionary.

TAPPER: At mass this morning, Pope Francis said if holy law doesn't lead us closer to Jesus Christ, to God, then it is dead. How much do you think Pope Francis is leading the charge for these changes?

MARTIN: A tremendous amount. At the beginning of the senate, he told people that they should feel free to speak their minds and that comes on the heels of his call for mercy, of his comments about homosexuals saying who am I to judge? He really is setting the tone. And once you open up the door to free speech, the Holy Spirit makes its way in and anything can happen.

TAPPER: The new language -- again, this is as you note just a draft. The document is not official and done yet. The new language calls on the church to, quote, "respect the dignity of the person about birth control." Saying it's an effort to be more realistic.

Do you think this is a change of view on using birth control or just a moderation of how much the church objects to it?

MARTIN: That's a good question. I think it's a moderation, but in the past, the role of conscience, which is what they're talking about, the person understands the church teaching, reflects on it and makes the decision in his or her conscience has been downplayed.

And they are reminding the church, the senate fathers that that's very important. They're trying to understand people's real-life experiences.

TAPPER: Bishops also raised the idea of changing the treatment of divorce, letting divorced couples take communion in some cases. It seemed such a divisive issue. How much room is there for flexibility?

MARTIN: There's a great deal of room for flexibility. Bishops are listening to people on the ground to divorced people who have been speaking about their pain. There are ways of looking at what is the doctrine, not a dogma, and trying to make these people feel more welcome, which I think is a good thing.

TAPPER: Reverend Martin, how much of a backlash do you think there's going to be? I imagine a number of Catholics who are going to object to this document?

MARTIN: They already have. And there are a number of Catholics on Twitter and on Facebook and in social media who already have expressed surprise. But I would remind them as the pope said in the homily that these laws if they get in the way of people coming to god are as the pope said, not me, obsolete.

TAPPER: All right, Father Martin, thank you for joining us as always good to see you.

MARTIN: My pleasure.

TAPPER: Make sure to follow me on Twitter @jaketapper and also @theleadcnn. Check out our show page on cnn.com/thelead for video, blogs and extras.

That's it for THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper. I now turn you over to Wolf Blitzer in "THE SITUATION ROOM" -- Wolf.