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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Ebola Fears; Washington School Shooting Investigation; Troops Monitored After Ebola Aid Trip; Second Victim Dies in School Shooting

Aired October 27, 2014 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: The newest potential Ebola patient may be the youngest we have seen so far in the U.S.

I'm Jake Tapper. This is THE LEAD.

The national lead, a 5-year-old boy rushed to the hospital in New York City with possible, possible Ebola symptoms, including a 103-degree fever, all this as our leaders play musical patients in a fight over public safety, personal liberty and politics.

Also in national news, he wasn't shooting at random. He aimed for friends and even members of his family. A victim's grandfather will join us as a community searches for answers after yet another horrific school shooting. This one has now claimed a second innocent student life.

The politics lead, with the balance of power in Washington at stake, the final CNN polls before the midterm elections will be released this hour right here on THE LEAD. What do they tell us about which way the Senate might go?

Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

We are going to begin with the national lead.

With each new Ebola case in the U.S. comes a message from the government to the public to keep calm, everything is under control. And yet our leaders are all over the place on just what needs to happen to keep us all safe.

Just minutes ago, the Centers for Disease Control released new guidelines on how to deal with health care workers returning from the Ebola hot zone in West Africa. These new protocols are likely an effort to curb a recent trend of states enacting their own rules for increased monitoring of health care workers which in some cases includes a mandatory 21-day home quarantine.

The governor of New York, Democrat Governor Cuomo, and governor of neighboring New Jersey, Republican Chris Christie, they have called for an even stricter policy, for a hospital quarantine for people from out of state, such as Kaci Hickox. She's the nurse who returned from the hell of treating patients in West Africa only to be put in a tent in a Newark hospital which lacked basic amenities, such as a flushable toilet or even a shower. Now, both governors have since been seen as tempering their initial

policy pronouncements. White House officials made it clear they thought both governors had gone a step too far, hospital Christie today in Florida said nothing's changed and his policy is the right one.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), NEW JERSEY: She was running a high fever and was symptomatic. Live outside the state and you're symptomatic, we're not letting you go onto public transportation. It makes no common sense. I'm telling you guys, this is going to become a national policy eventually. Eventually, the CDC will come around.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Sources telling CNN that both governors were alarmed at what they regarded at holes in the self-quarantining process.

Christie alarmed that NBC News correspondent Dr. Nancy Snyderman was seen dining out in the Garden State during her self-quarantine after returning from West Africa, for instance. Cuomo reacting to the doctor who treated patients in Guinea after he became New York's first Ebola patient, Craig Spencer, said to be in serious condition at Bellevue Hospital.

Also, at that same hospital, a 5-year-old boy is being tested for Ebola. He and his family spent time in Guinea before he arrived in the U.S. He had a reported fever of just over 100 degrees.

We have a team of reporters covering every angle of the story.

We're going to begin with CNN correspondent Poppy Harlow. She is live in New York outside Bellevue Hospital.

Poppy, how soon could we get results on this little boy being tested for Ebola there?

POPPY HARLOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We could get it any moment, Jake.

We know we're going to know today, according to New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio. The test, as you know, takes up to 12 hours. Interestingly, on that call the CDC just had issuing those new guidelines, they were asked about this 5-year-old boy. They said, look, all those questions have to go through here, the hospital at Bellevue.

But they did say that the more symptomatic or further progressed you are on a disease, the more quickly they will know the results of the test. But again we don't what time it was given, so we just -- we don't have a clear answer at this point on exactly what hour. But we are going to know today.

TAPPER: And, Poppy, what do we know about his symptoms? He had a fever? Is there anything more than that?

HARLOW: Right.

That's about all we know, Jake. We know that his latest fever reading was 102 degrees, but unclear what time that was taken. He was rushed here on Sunday evening in this ambulance with his mother after returning late Saturday night to JFK from a month in Guinea. Interestingly, today, Mayor de Blasio addressed questions about his symptoms and he was very cautious, saying, this is a child and there are obviously protections here for anyone talking about what they're showing medically.

But he said he had a fever and that he was having -- quote -- "difficulty," but also noted that the symptoms he was exhibiting could be symptoms of something else. So it seems like they're treading really carefully here.

TAPPER: All right, we're all hoping and praying for that little boy. Poppy Harlow outside Bellevue Hospital in New York, thanks.

The nurse who had been in mandatory quarantine in a New Jersey hospital is headed home, but her release only came after she threatened legal action against the state for violating her civil liberties.

Kaci Hickox had just returned from treating Ebola patients in West Africa when she was ordered into quarantine. She showed signs of a fever after officials at Newark Airport took her temperature with a forehead scanner. But Hickox said the temperature was wrong and she lashed out at New Jersey Governor Chris Christie, who at one point described her to the media as -- quote -- "obviously ill."

Joining me now is CNN correspondent Alexandra Field.

Alexandra, once this nurse gets back to Maine, who kind of monitoring will she undergo?

ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: She will still have to observe the 21-day quarantine period, but she will be in her home. CDC health officials will be working with her to make sure she's comfortable in her home.

They say they will provide any food that she needs, any medicine that she could need. But again Kaci Hickox says she is not sick. She was tested twice for the Ebola virus when she was being kept on this mandatory quarantine in isolation at University Hospital in Newark, both times tested negative. She said she never experienced any symptoms, which is why she's now being allowed to return home to Maine.

But, frankly, Jake, there was a lot of back and forth about whether or not she had shown symptoms at the airport when she arrived from West Africa. Officials said she developed a fever. She said she never developed a fever and that her temperature wasn't taken in the correct way. She was simply flushed from the frustration of the process she was undergoing.

TAPPER: Is she still considering taking any legal action against the Garden State?

FIELD: Certainly, the threat of legal action appears to have maybe contributed to the fact that she was able to be released this morning after she had been told by the hospital that she would be kept here for 21 days.

I did speak to her lawyer earlier today and he tells me that Kaci Hickox's first concern right now is just getting home and getting back to a normal life. But he believes that there is a legal basis to challenge the policy that was implemented here in New Jersey and he says it's yet to be seen whether or not Kaci Hickox feels that she is the woman who should lead that charge, Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Alexandra Field in Newark, New Jersey.

With so much confusion over how to deal with health care workers returning to the U.S. from the Ebola hot zone, the CDC just released some new guidelines in an effort to get everyone on the same page. But with some states already putting their own rules into place, is this too little too late?

CNN senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen is live in New York City with more.

Elizabeth, what's the gist of these new protocols that the CDC just minutes ago announced?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Right, Jake.

The gist is that there wouldn't be a routine quarantine. They're not recommending a routine quarantine for health care workers. Instead, they are saying, let's do more intensive monitoring. That was Dr. Tom Frieden's phrase from the CDC, more intensive monitoring, having daily contact with local health officials, asking the health care worker how they're feeling, sounds like having sort of longer conversations about their symptoms.

For example, with Dr. Craig Spencer, one of the issues was that he was feeling sluggish, but still went out in public, still went bowling, still went to restaurants. It sounds like now with that conversation, the health official might say, whoa, hold on a second, if you're feeling sluggish, let's not go out into public places.

But again I think the headline is, no routine quarantine for returning health care workers. But, as you said, this is not for the federal government to decide. They can make recommendations and guidelines all they want. In the end, it's up to the states to make the rules.

TAPPER: Elizabeth, Dr. Craig Spencer, who you were just talking about, New York City's first Ebola case, he's the main reason why the state of New York decided to enact stricter policies for health care workers. Do we have any updates on his condition? Last I heard, things were getting worse for him.

COHEN: Right. Things were getting worse, that he was having gastrointestinal symptoms, which he wasn't having at the beginning. He's received a plasma donation from Ebola survivor Nancy Writebol.

He's taking an antiviral medication. Then there was some indication he was maybe a little better, a little worse. That happens with Ebola. it sometimes gets better and worse, better and worse. We haven't had a very specific update on how he's doing, if his temperature is up, if his temperature is down.

Hopefully, he will be, like every other U.S. Ebola patient, a survivor, except, of course, for Thomas Eric Duncan, the Liberian man who received his treatment very late in the game.

TAPPER: All right. And those anti -- the plasma donation from survivors of Ebola are given because the blood has antibodies that could maybe help the new patients.

Elizabeth Cohen, thank you so much.

Right now, nearly a dozen U.S. soldiers who just left West Africa, well, they're also sitting in quarantine, even though none of them is showing any symptoms of Ebola. Now the Pentagon is considering an across-the-board quarantine for as many as 4,000 American troops. Is that necessary? That's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

We're continuing our coverage of our national lead now; 11 U.S. military personnel just back from West Africa have been prescribed a mandatory three-week stay in a military facility outside Vicenza, Italy, over fears that the troops, including the commander of U.S. Army Africa, could potentially bring the disease home to the U.S.

The team is in what's called controlled monitoring, subjected to the now all too familiar routine of temperature checks.

Let's go right to CNN's Barbara Starr live at the Pentagon -- Barbara Straight ahead.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Jake, the Pentagon may not to call it controlled monitoring. But I think for the rest of us, it's a quarantine.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

STARR (voice-over): U.S. Army Major General Darryl Williams ended his command of the U.S. military operation in West Africa and flew right into quarantine.

Williams and his military team show no symptoms of Ebola. But the Army ordered the 21-day quarantine for them and dozens of others flying out of West Africa after they worked to set up operations to fight Ebola for the last 30 days. The timing could not be politically worse. The administration doesn't want quarantines.

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: You have got to make your decisions and your policy based on the scientific data.

And the scientific data and the evidence tells us that people who are not ill, who don't have symptoms, who -- with whom you don't come into contact with body fluids, they are not a threat.

STARR: But, for troops, there are other considerations.

DR. FRANK ESPER, INFECTIOUS DISEASE SPECIALIST: Infections go through the military population than the civilian population. Everyone's living in very close quarters. They are working in very close quarters. It's been well-shown how even mild infections within a military unit can lead to very debilitating and interruption of their capabilities.

STARR: Now, the Joint Chiefs of Staff is considering recommending an across-the-board quarantine for nearly 900 troops already there, a number that could grow to 4,000.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have ensured the highest medical and safety protocols are in place before, during and after deployment.

STARR: A full military quarantine would be a stunning reversal. In an October 10th memo, the Pentagon said, as long as troops show no symptoms, "They may return to work and routine daily activities with family members."

As the administration grapples with the issue of quarantines, U.N. Ambassador Samantha Power is about to return from West Africa. The State Department says she will obey any state health laws.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

STARR: This issue is now so sensitive for the Pentagon, it is going to be Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel that makes the final decision about whether to institute a quarantine -- Jake.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Barbara Starr, thank you so much.

Joining me now is Dr. Michael Osterholm. He's director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota.

Dr. Osterholm, thanks for joining us again.

Do you think these troops need to be quarantined?

DR. MICHAEL OSTERHOLM, UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA: Well, thank you, Jake.

And, first of all, let me just say that quarantine is just a word, just like breach or drugs or vaccine or any of these things that we almost had a week of the word -- a word each week for the last few weeks. Quarantine can mean many, many different things. It can, in fact, if you have drug-resistant TB patient that is won't take their drugs, literally under lock and key so they can't transmit to anybody else. In Minnesota, we have a program here where we actually surgeons who

are HIV-infected under supervision have been able to practice their art of medicine for the last 25 years without any problems whatsoever of transmission. So, one of the problems we have is a lot of people keep throwing out the word quarantine out, but don't know really know what they're talking about.

So, in the case of the military, we can take steps to limit even a very small, small, remote chance of transmission. But it's not the same word that we might look at for a lot of other diseases.

TAPPER: All right. So, it's not under lock and key, but it's individuals who are being separated and told for 21 additional days, they can't have any contact with anybody in the United States, whether that's the nurse who was in the tent for a few days outside the Newark hospital or these troops.

Let's just use that definition, if we could --

OSTERHOLM: Well, first of all, I just disagree that that is actually the approach we need to take. You know, I've been on your show and critical of the kinds of statements that were made that I thought were overreaching, that we didn't have the science to support. But here in Minnesota today, we just announced a policy that is free of politics, is not based on the election and who is trying to say what about what. And it's really based on what we know about the science.

And it's a policy that takes those who have had no undocumented exposures in West Africa to Ebola-infected patients versus those that did not, and how you deal with it differently. We can actually create an entire portfolio of responses that meet with the necessary needs to protect the public.

There's some misconception that you either have -- you can protect the public or you have to basically give the rights or freedoms to these workers or people coming back. That's just absolutely not true. We can do both very successfully. And that's what we need to do.

TAPPER: Do you think that quarantining these soldiers or the steps announced by governors Christie or Cuomo, it sounds to me like you're saying that goes too far, it's not necessary, until the individuals are showing symptoms, they are therefore not infectious, not contagious and do not need to be kept separate from the public. Am I reading you correctly?

OSTERHOLM: No, I think you captured it very well. If these individuals had no contact with Ebola-infected patients at all while they were there, surely I would want to monitor them, I'd want to make sure that we're following any potential development of signs or symptoms which at that time we would have ample opportunity to get them into the appropriate medical care, get them out of the community where they cause potentially transmission.

Remember, let's just step back to Dallas, not that that is a large sample of events. But there, Mr. Duncan's family who was in that apartment with him for several days early in the illness, the emergency room workers who first saw him on his first visit, none of those individuals became infected. It was only the people later on in the illness when he was much more infectious.

Now, that's just one example. I mean, I'm not going to tell you it's going to be like that every time. But the bottom line is, I have no concerns about a New York physician with his first signs and symptoms reports, is hospitalized and the fact that he had contact with other people.

Do I want him to have physical contact that would limit that -- it's not like we have to treat them as if they have to be locked up. That's just not necessary based on any of the science we have about this.

TAPPER: I understand what you're saying. But I think a lot of members of the public see a CDC and a medical community that knows a lot about this virus but doesn't know everything. And we saw that the CDC guidelines -- initial guidelines were not sufficient to keep those nurses in Dallas from contracting the disease. And I think people are just uncertain that for instance a doctor who is feeling sluggish and a few hours later is diagnosed with Ebola should be riding the subway.

Now, I understand the science of it and the symbolism of the mayor of New York City going to that subway shop and eating at subway to show that everybody's OK, or President Obama hugging the nurses. But people are concerned that there is so much unknown here.

Do you understand that at all?

OSTERHOLM: Oh, I absolutely understand it. I actually agree with it. I mean, fear is not a bad thing when we don't understand what's going on.

But we know a lot about this. We have an obligation to educate the public about it.

Just as you, I have had criticisms of the health care worker guidelines that were out until very recently when they were updated. I was one of those people actually saying the same thing, that we needed to do more. But I'm also telling you now that based on this information, I can't tell you it's a risk of zero, and anyone that would tell you that is not being responsible.

But if you're worried about a physician or a nurse coming back to this country with Ebola infection and transmit it to others, then you best not ever sent your kids to school, don't drive to the grocery store or don't walk to church. Those are the kinds of realities I'm trying to share with you.

Now, on the other hand, that same physician or nurse who were several days into their illness is being hospitalized is now developing profuse diarrhea and vomiting, I worry a lot about that person's ability to transmit the virus to health care workers that are taking care of them.

So, we have to do is learn that we have to deal with this over the long haul. You know, Jake, we're in a marathon, if not an iron man right now with this disease. We're maybe in the first half mile. And we're going to have to learn to live with this like it is, and one of the things we're going to have to learn with this is there will be these events like this. But this is not the one that is going to basically cause the problem for America. It's just not.

TAPPER: All right. Dr. Michael Osterholm, always a good perspective. Thank you so much. We appreciate it as always.

OSTERHOLM: Thank you.

TAPPER: Coming up, he was shot by his best friend as he sat in the school cafeteria. And now, Nate Hatch is saying he loves and forgives the shooter. But does he know why he was targeted? We'll talk to his grandfather who's been by his side at the hospital, next.

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