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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Interview With Arizona Senator John McCain; Midair Threats; Interview with John Rizzo

Aired December 10, 2014 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Acts of clear torture committed by the CIA. We know that it cost us, but did it get us anything?

I'm Jake Tapper. This is THE LEAD.

The national lead, the CIA's cruelty dragged out of the shadows by a scathing Senate report. Today, we will speak to men on both sides of this issue, former prisoner of war and torture survivor Senator John McCain, and we will hear from the former legal adviser to the CIA who is mentioned 228 times in the torture report.

Plus, imagine that you board a plane with your family and then a drone slices through a wing. With more and more of these commercial drones dotting the skies, a new report says near collisions are happening much more than you think.

The pop culture lead. The FBI says they still do not know who did it, but the Sony Studios' hacking has produced more drama than their film. So what A-list actress was written off in an internal e-mail as a minimally talented spoiled brat?

Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

We're following breaking developments on our top story, fallout from the torture report.

But first we're going to go to the money lead and the markets, which have just closed, freefalling, the Dow down more than 250 points today.

Let's go to Alison Kosik. She's live at the stock exchange.

Alison, this is three days in a row that stocks have slipped. What's going on?

ALISON KOSIK, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: It is. Guess who you can blame? You can blame oil prices. In fact, oil getting crushed, closing below $61 a barrel, dragging down energy stocks, taking the rest of the market with it.

A couple of reports came out today that sparked the sell-off, not just with oil, but with stocks as well. The latest weekly oil report coming from the government, showing us a surprise jump in U.S. crude supplies and also OPEC's monthly report came out today forecasting that there will be less demand for oil next year, so this is a situation of supply 101. If there's more supply and less demand, prices will fall and it's all leaving investors, Jake, wondering what it means for the global economy -- Jake.

TAPPER: But, Alison, drivers are enjoying lower gas prices. What's the worry on Wall Street about?

KOSIK: We are enjoying those lower gas prices, but you have got investors wrestling with a lot of questions like what's really behind this decline in oil prices?

Is it mostly because of more supply of oil or lack of demand because of economic activity slowing down in Europe and Asia? So what you really saw happen today was really this fear creep in as concern grows that the culprit of falling oil prices is less demand because of slowing economies and oil may wind up being a leading indicator of what's to come for the global economy and it frankly spooked investors today, Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Alison Kosik in New York. Thanks.

Now to our national lead. If Tuesday's Senate torture on CIA torture practices caused something of an earthquake, today, we're feeling the aftershocks, troops, American troops around the world and national security officials and law enforcement here at home bracing for retaliation to the grim revelations in the report.

Today on Twitter and on message boards, radical Islamists calling for attacks against Americans and Westerners everywhere. The SITE Intelligence Group, which monitors jihadis on the Web, claims that the report has 'ignited an overwhelming response," but we should note those calls for violence have not yet spilled on to the streets.

While the White House today steadfastly refused to say whether torture at any time worked, the CIA's defenders insisted the program did produce real intelligence, intelligence that helped stop terror plots, intelligence that could not and would not have been obtained any other way.

Of course, not everyone agrees. A Democratic member of the Senate Intelligence Committee did not hold back, for instance, Senator Mark Udall again calling for current CIA Director John Brennan to resign, before going after the Obama administration for cooperating only when forced.

In nearly a 50-minute diatribe, the senator denounced the gruesome methods outlined in the torture report and said the company is still lying to the American people.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MARK UDALL (D), COLORADO: So while the study clearly shows that the CIA's detention and interrogation program itself was deeply flawed, the deeper, more endemic problem lies in a CIA assisted by a White House that continues to try to cover up the truth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Here now to talk about the report, Republican Senator from Arizona John McCain. He's also the ranking member of the Senate Armed Services Committee and author of a brand-new book, "Thirteen Soldiers: A Personal History of Americans at War."

Senator, thanks for joining us, as always.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: Thank you.

TAPPER: You're one of the few Republicans in the Senate backing this report passed largely by Democrats in the Intelligence Committee. More importantly, as a former Vietnam POW, you're the only person in the Senate who has actually experienced torture.

What do your Republican colleagues not get?

MCCAIN: Well, I think they are concerned that this information could somehow harm American interests.

They believe that the information has been biased, to some degree. They make the complaint that there was no -- these people interviewed. Some of those concerns were legitimate.

Obviously, we would have liked to have seen bipartisan agreement. But even the most steadfast opponents admit that things that things happened that should not have, in fact, things that we outlawed, legislation of mine, the Detainee Treatment Act, that outlawed this kind of behavior. And it was already in violation of the Geneva Conventions, not only that we observe, but we largely wrote.

TAPPER: Right.

So, why do you think there have not been any repercussions for the people who did this? For instance, there is a CIA operative mentioned in the report who killed a detainee in custody.

Do you think that operative should be punished?

MCCAIN: I don't know, Jake.

I don't know enough about the circumstances and all of that. And I am not on the Intelligence Committee. I -- all I know is, the fundamental principle that this issue is not about them. It's about us. It's about what kind of nation we are and what our standards of behavior are.

And they're not of ISIS, who we see cutting off people's heads in the most gruesome manner. So it's hard for me to get into the details of who should be held responsible and who shouldn't.

What I want to do is make sure that we never do it again, because it diminishes us as a nation and it diminishes us morally.

TAPPER: Senator Bob Kerrey, the former senator, Democrat from Nebraska, said today that Congress is letting itself off the hook, that there were members of Congress, the Senate Intelligence Committee, the House Intelligence Committee who had been briefed on these methods.

And the suggestion has been made by many of the CIA's defenders out there that Congress is acting all shocked, when basically Congress had an idea that a lot of this stuff was going on. What do you think about that?

MCCAIN: Well, I don't know what to think because I don't know what they know and what they didn't know.

But I will tell you this. The vice president of the United States came to see me and then director of the CIA, General Hayden came to see me also, and I steadfastly said, no, I do not agree and do not support in any way using these -- quote -- "techniques" -- unquote.

TAPPER: Now, the argument that torture is immoral, which is the argument you're making, is a strong one. What's more disputed, I think, is that -- whether or not it's effective.

In 2011, for instance, as you know, the director of the CIA, Leon Panetta at the time, wrote to you that -- quote -- "Some of the detainees who provided useful information had been subjected to enhanced interrogation techniques. Whether those techniques were the only timely and effective way to obtain such information when it came to the capture of bin Laden is a matter of debate and cannot be established definitively."

Do you think that there's just no way these techniques ever provided any information that was used?

MCCAIN: Well, I know that when then director of the CIA can't establish it, then it's pretty hard to do.

I do know that, from any experience with this kind of treatment, that if someone is subjected to enough physical pain, that person will say whatever is necessary in order to make that pain stop. And that's why there's also a wealth of misinformation that comes out of people who are being subjected to it.

And I don't -- again, I'm not on the Intelligence Committee, and I don't know the details. But I do know that if you water-board somebody 183 times, that's awfully hard to explain.

TAPPER: And that's, I know, not the water-boarding, but the idea of torture is something that you know firsthand from your time in Vietnam.

Senator John McCain, thank you so much. And, as always, thank you for your service, sir.

MCCAIN: Thank you, Jake.

TAPPER: There is, of course, the other side of the torture debate, the side that says enhanced interrogation techniques were necessary, they were legal, and they saved American lives. One man who is defending the CIA today is John Rizzo, the former

lawyer who advised the CIA on its practices at the time. He's mentioned in the torture report more than 200 times. And he joins me next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

We're going to continue our coverage of the world lead in the sprawling Senate report that makes Homer's output look diminutive.

The former general counsel for the CIA John Rizzo, his name is mentioned more than 200 times in the report. And he's sitting across from me now. He's the author of "Company Man: Thirty Years of Controversy and Crisis in the CIA."

And he's here to give the case for what the CIA did during the era covered in this report.

Thanks so much for being here. We appreciate your taking our questions.

JOHN RIZZO, FORMER CIA COUNSEL: Good being here, Mr. Tapper.

TAPPER: So, you are mentioned 228 times, including footnotes.

In one of them which got some headlines, it is an internal memo that you wrote in July 2003 in which you say -- quote -- "The White House is extremely concerned Secretary of State Powell would blow his stack if he were to be briefed on what's been going on."

It certainly seems to suggest that the enhanced interrogation techniques or, in some cases, you acknowledge that those abuses became torturous, that that was kept from key members of the administration.

RIZZO: Yes. I mean, I saw that email the first time in, what, 11 years last night.

TAPPER: Yes.

RIZZO: Now, I do remember it and obviously it was my email and I wrote it, and that was the sentiment expressed by some White House lawyers at that time.

TAPPER: Isn't that messed up, though? Why would anyone want to keep it from the secretary of state?

RIZZO: Well, look, the CIA, something -- a program like this, we don't advocate keeping secrets from the secretary of state. If it were our druthers, I'll tell you, for all my years of experience, we want as many people in the boat with us as possible when something this large (ph). So, that was -- that was certainly not CIA's concern or preference to keep anyone, especially the secretary of state out.

TAPPER: Did you push back at all? Did you say we need to have as many people onboard? This is a policy change we're doing?

RIZZO: Well, we did. I'm going on memory here. The email refreshed some of it, but as I recall, we went back and said we've always briefed secretary of state on covert action programs and in fact, Secretary Powell was briefed and as it turned out, he did not blow his stack.

TAPPER: I want to ask about another quote. This is an interesting one. In June 2003 President Obama released a statement in support of victims of victims of torture. The president said the U.S. was committed to the worldwide elimination of torture and called for prosecuting all acts of torture and he says that American detainees and prisoners are treated humanely.

The very next day, according to this report and documents, you called the White House lawyers to express concern and to maybe get a reaffirmation that the techniques by the CIA are OK. Isn't that an acknowledgement that the U.S. was engaging in torture?

RIZZO: No. I think it's what any, I suppose, responsible lawyer in my position who has a client, the CIA.

TAPPER: Yes.

RIZZO: -- wants to protect his client and ebb sure that the client is on solid legal ground. And when I saw that statement, frankly, I saw the word "humane". By that time I had the justice memo saying the program did not constitute torture, but honestly, Jake, the word "humane", I'm not schooled in these kinds of international --

TAPPER: So, it's humanely that --

(CROSSTALK)

RIZZO: Yes.

TAPPER: -- more than the torture.

RIZZO: Yes, that's why I went back just to make sure that the White House wasn't putting us in a vulnerable position or saying something that would, frankly, leave CIA out in the lurch. That's why I did that.

TAPPER: The report also says that of the 119 known detainees, at least 26 were wrongfully held and did not meet the detention standard, that include CIA informants and an intellectually challenged man. That makes it sound like the CIA was not only torturing bad guys like KSM or Abu Zubaydah, but innocent people.

RIZZO: Well, again, you're using the word "torture" and I would dispute that the people in enhanced interrogation program, that was harsh, brutal tactic.

TAPPER: But you're not disputing that the force-feeding people rectally is torture.

RIZZO: No, absolutely not. Those were abuses. The system was not perfect. There were abuses along the way.

TAPPER: Worse than not perfect, wasn't it, sir? It was abhorrent in some cases.

RIZZO: Those tactics were abhorrent, absolutely. I'm not going to contest that.

TAPPER: But it sounds like innocent people, not just bad guy, innocent people were subjected to this torture or enhanced interrogation methods.

RIZZO: No, no. I can tell you, no innocent people were exposed to or under the enhanced interrogation program. I think, again, what this report might be alluded to, there are other categories of prisoners and not in the enhanced interrogation program. And it was among those prisoners that there was unfortunately some abuse. They were not in the so-called black sites they were in other facilities.

But, sure, I mean, I will not -- I will not dispute the fact that there were abuses, some very serious abuses which we, the CIA, when we found out our people had gone beyond the limit, reported them to the department of justice for possible criminal action.

TAPPER: None of those people were punished? They all stayed on the CIA payroll.

RIZZO: No, I don't think that's true. Is that in the report? Because I have not seen that.

TAPPER: I haven't seen any evidence that anybody who was responsible for what some people were war crimes and you will acknowledge were not permitted even people who permitted the waterboarding did not permit the rectal rehydration. I haven't seen any evidence that any of those people were punished. In fact the only person I know that was punished in the CIA is the guy who leaked information about this torture, John Kiriakou, who is in prison for leaking and not torture.

RIZZO: Well, I had to disagree with you there. Kiriakou was the subject of a separate segment.

TAPPER: Right. But there were several CIA employees who went over the line, who were punished administratively, asked to resign, sanctioned one way or the other, and the fact that you haven't seen that, you know, I'm just telling you that that's what happened.

There was one employee, a contractor, actually who was criminally prosecuted for assault. So -- so, the notion that people got away scot-free with committing these abuses is just mistaken.

TAPPER: We're almost out of time, but I do want to ask you, when you read this report and you go back to that day, those days, I know that the CIA was under tremendous pressure and I know the CIA was doing that people felt needed to be done to get information to save lives. I understand the context and I understand the context that Congress and the public were not so outraged at the time, they wanted to be protected. But when you look back at the abuses, things that you acknowledge were

abuses, are you embarrassed? Does it bother you?

RIZZO: Well, I'm embarrassed and still disgusted with my colleagues who abide (ph) the abuses, but these abuses were occasional. They were not -- they were not the defining feature of the program. The program went on for seven years.

TAPPER: How can you say -- how can you say that waterboarding is not torture? I'm really confused by that because it just seems you are -- it's a mock execution. The person can't breathe. Why is it not torture?

RIZZO: Well, listen, a lot of people feel that way, and I understand that, of course, that's torture. Jake, I'm a lawyer. Torture is legally defined in the U.S. statute. At the time, I had mercifully had never had exposure to the torture statute because the CIA had never done anything even came close.

I went to the Department of Justice in a time of great national crisis. They issued what -- memos back to me, addressed to me, infamously called the "torture memos".

TAPPER: Right.

RIZZO: Those memos and they're all public now, concluded after laying out specifically what the techniques were going to be, that they did not meet the torture threshold. I accepted that as a legal determination and I believe back then, and I believe it today, the program, the authorized program and the actual techniques that were authorized, I do not believe they were harsh, they were brutal. I still do not believe they reached the legal threshold of torture.

TAPPER: All right. John Rizzo, thank you so much. I appreciate you coming and answering the questions as uncomfortable as they might have been.

RIZZO: No, that's fine.

TAPPER: All right. Thank you so much.

RIZZO: Thank you.

TAPPER: Slow motion images, dramatic music, ISIS is out with more videos. It felt like a Hollywood thriller. Exactly what can American intelligence gain from this propaganda? We'll ask one man who tracks the terrorist group.

And the question of the year still unanswered, what in the world happened to Malaysia Airlines Flight 370? Well, we'll tell you about a new rule that could help prevent another case like it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper. In our world lead today: is he dead or alive? That is the question

American defense officials are trying to answer about one of the most wanted terrorists in the world. A master bomb maker with ties to the Khorasan terrorist group in Syria which is believed to have been killed, he is believed to have been killed in a U.S. airstrike. But now, there are some doubts about that claim.

CNN's Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr is here with new details on this breaking story -- Barbara.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Jake.

David Drugeon, French man, master bomb maker of the Khorasan Group, a core al Qaeda operative from Pakistan to Syria a number of years ago. The U.S. hoped, had hoped they had got him in a November air strike. Now two U.S. officials telling me every reason to believe Drugeon he is still alive and a big concern to the U.S. because of his bomb making skills.

They are continuing to monitor Khorasan electronic activity, communications. That's how they're getting some of this information. Also still alive, another man, Muhsin al-Fadhli, the so-called leader of the Khorasan Group.

So, after several months now of bombing, several air strikes against this inside Syria and even as the war against ISIS in Syria goes on, the worry is that these two key leaders of the Khorasan Group are very tough al Qaeda affiliate are, in fact, still alive -- Jake.

TAPPER: Barbara Starr at the Pentagon. Thank you so much.

More news on the terrorist front, Defense Secretary Hagel expressed satisfaction at the pace and the success of the U.S.-led campaign against ISIS in Iraq and Syria. But the shocking brutality of the terrorist group shows no signs of letting up as evidence by propaganda videos released overnight, showcasing the organization's stronghold throughout much of Iraq and Syria.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NARRATOR: Despite having American weaponry and armor at their disposal, the Safawis were scared to meet death and did not have the nerve to continue the fight.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: The propaganda captured Iraqi soldiers are rounded up in vehicles in these videos forced to dig their own mass graves and executed them at point-blank range. Another video shows the violent battle for the Syrian city of Kobani that we've been covering for so long, using a drone to highlight where suicide attacks were carried out.

Another disturbing images, ISIS terrorists can be seen throwing a man accused of being gay off the top of the building and stoning him to death. ISIS tactics are considered so extreme, they evoked revulsion from --

of all places -- an al Qaeda affiliate. A top leader from al Qaeda in Yemen which just slaughtered American hostage Luke Somers held a press conference in which he described these beheadings and other acts as barbaric. He accused ISIS of driving a wedge between the factions.