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The Lead with Jake Tapper

CIA Director Defends Interrogation Tactics; West Coast Storm; BuzzFeed: James Foley's Body Up for Sale; Strongest West Coast Storm in Years; Michael Hayden Interview

Aired December 11, 2014 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Unprecedented and unknowable.

I'm Jake Tapper. This is THE LEAD.

The national lead. The director of the CIA live on national television from Langley, Virginia, he says there's no way we can know if torturing detainees works.

Well, we will ask a former CIA officer about what he knew about any possible abuses, when he knew it, and his response to charges in the torture report that he misled Congress.

And it's the polar opposite of a drought, an atmospheric river turning roads into actual rivers, a powerful storm bringing hurricane-force winds and thudding rain to the West Coast.

Plus, the pop culture lead. Don't switch up the channel. It really was an actual sabotage, the CIA using USAID and rap music as a covert weapon against Fidel Castro. Too bad the Cubans knew that the U.S. was behind it.

Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

We are going to begin today with our national lead and something we cannot remember ever having seen before, the CIA director from Langley, Virginia, the agency's headquarters, and one of the most closely guarded buildings in the world, standing live on television defending gruesome actions of interrogators, acts that many U.S. allies consider torture.

CIA Director John Brennan's unprecedented choice to address the allegations head on live on television was brought on by a massive report issued by Democrats on the Senate Intelligence Committee outlining the abuses and what the agency refers to as its enhanced interrogation program.

The report has sent shockwaves throughout the national security infrastructure, forcing American embassies abroad to hunker down and U.S. military bases overseas to be prepared for any possible retaliation, fears as yet unrealized.

And the report has captured the attention of the public as well, ascending this holiday season to Amazon's bestseller list. Good luck cramming those 6,000 pages into your Christmas stockings. I'm just kidding. It's an e-book.

Today, Brennan insisted that the approved techniques such as water- boarding were lawful, but admitted missteps and that things described in the report such as keeping detainees awake for seven days on end or force-feeding them rectally, fell short in his view of the CIA's standards.

While Brennan chose his words carefully on just what the CIA did and what, if any intelligence torture actually yielded, the outgoing chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Democrat Dianne Feinstein, went point-counterpoint with the CIA director on Twitter.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN BRENNAN, CIA DIRECTOR: The cause and effect relationship between the use of EITs and useful information subsequently provided by the detainee is, in my view, unknowable.

The detainees who were subjected to enhanced interrogation techniques provided information that was useful and was used in the ultimate operation to go against bin Laden. The study's contention that we repeatedly and intentionally misled the public and the rest of the U.S. government rests on the committee's view that the detainees subjected to EITs did not produce useful intelligence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: CNN justice report Evan Perez was at Langley for Brennan's press conference.

Evan, Brennan did not use torture once when addressing reporters. What is your biggest takeaway from his remarks today?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, I think there was some backing away from the statement that the CIA put out in Brennan's name on Tuesday, when the report first came out.

If you remember, he said simply that their review indicated that interrogations of detainees did produce intelligence that was valuable, that captured terrorists and saved lives. Today, he's saying, I'm not saying that the EITs, that the torture, that the interrogations we're talking about, that that produced the intelligence. He's simply saying that the interrogation programs, that the detainees produced -- provided intelligence at some point. And he's not saying it's because of the treatment of these detainees.

TAPPER: That's an interesting parsing, because he's clearly saying that the larger interrogation program, not necessarily the torture, worked and people who were subjected to torture gave information, but not necessarily because of the torture.

PEREZ: Right.

And I think what you see here is Brennan in the last couple of days was in a very uncomfortable place, in that he was closer to the position of Dick Cheney, the former vice president, than he was with the rest of this administration. That's not a very comfortable place to be, I'm sure.

TAPPER: I would think not, and certainly in a different place than the Democrats on the Senate Intelligence Committee, who are not only arguing that it's immoral. They're saying it doesn't even work, which is very hotly disputed.

(CROSSTALK)

PEREZ: Right. Exactly.

TAPPER: All right, Evan Perez, thank you so much.

Here to talk more about this, former director of the CIA serving from 2006 to 2009 in that capacity, General Michael Hayden.

General, thanks so much for being here. Appreciate it.

GEN. MICHAEL HAYDEN (RET.), FORMER CIA DIRECTOR: Thank you.

TAPPER: First of all, your reaction to press conference. What did you think?

HAYDEN: I think it was a very good speech.

As Evan points out, John had to thread a fairly narrow space there, because he's in government. But, frankly, the reactions of Senator Feinstein, Senator Wyden and Senator Udall yesterday, even before he heard the speech, tell me there is an awful lot to like in the speech.

TAPPER: What do you mean by that?

HAYDEN: I mean they opposed the speech. They said that John was misleading and lying again. All right? I know John is telling the truth.

And so although I would have changed a few words, I may have added a few thoughts, fundamentally, John said we got valuable information from this program and we did not intend to mislead Congress about it. I will pocket that.

TAPPER: All right.

Well, there's a lot of pushback, as you know, from Capitol Hill about whether or not the key chairs and ranking members of the hey committees, Intelligence Committees mainly, were briefed properly. And there's been a lot said about you specifically, as well as your predecessors in that job.

Dianne Feinstein, the outgoing chair, released a statement saying that "They were provided extensive inaccurate information and were repeatedly stonewalled by the CIA." Now, in her statement, she is talking about a whole bunch of years, but she is including 2006 and 2007 when you were director of the CIA.

HAYDEN: That's right.

TAPPER: She's saying that you misled Congress. Your response?

HAYDEN: Yes.

My response is, you have got to be kidding. All right? I'm the one who argued within the administration, frankly, with the strong support of the president in 2006 during that first summer that I was direct for, that we had to go full monty to the committees.

This could not be just the president's program. It had to be America's program, Jake. And to do that, we needed political support from the other political branch. So I went down there in September of '06 and then later, the first time that all of the members of the Intelligence Committee had been briefed on all the details of the program.

And the only thing I told them that I had to withhold from them was the location of the sites.

TAPPER: OK.

When you talked about water-boarding when testifying before the Senate Intelligence Committee on April 12, 2007, you said this. "There cannot be more than two sessions per day of water-boarding." This is after it became public that this was going on. "No session can last longer than two hours. In any session, there can be no more than six pourings of water greater than 10 seconds in duration."

But the report, the Senate report -- and I understand the facts are disputed -- the report says, when it comes to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who we should point out is a very bad man and a terrorist, he was water-boarded nine times in two weeks, water-boarded three times in one day, forced to endure five sessions in 25 hours, was subjected to pouring of water for more than 12 minutes.

That water-boarding took place before you were CIA director. But, still, the statements don't square. How do you explain that?

HAYDEN: Well, I explain that what I was told when I was director was what you described that I told the committee.

If that's at variance with the facts, then perhaps they should go and talk to the people who were involved in preparing me, talk to the people who were actually involved in the water-boarding of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. By the way, when the International Committee of the Red Cross asked KSM, how many times were you water-boarded, he said five. And I actually think he might be a pretty good source on this.

TAPPER: Do you know that -- let's, first of all, let's differentiate, if we can, for the sake of this conversation, between the abuses, the things that were not...

HAYDEN: The unauthorized activities.

TAPPER: The unauthorized -- such as the rectal rehydration.

HAYDEN: No. Stop. TAPPER: OK.

HAYDEN: All right?

That was a medical procedure. That was done because of detainee health. But the people responsible there for the health of these detainees saw that they were becoming dehydrated. They had limited options in which to go do this. It was intravenous with needles, which would be dangerous with a noncooperative detainee. It was through the nasal passages.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: But pureeing humus and pine nuts and...

HAYDEN: Jake, I'm not a doctor and neither are you.

But what I am told is, this is one of the ways that the body is rehydrated. These were medical procedures. And to give you a sense...

TAPPER: Are you really defending rectal rehydration?

HAYDEN: What I'm defending is history.

To give you a sense as to how this report was put together, this activity, which was done five times, and each time for the health of the detainee, not part of the interrogation program, not designed to soften him up for any questioning -- the committee, the Democrats on the committee have used one-half-assed unwarranted comment in one e- mail to justify the story that you have now bought hook, line and sinker that we used this to abuse other human beings.

TAPPER: Well, without question, the CIA has acknowledged abuses, right?

HAYDEN: Maybe.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: And I'm talking about rectal rehydration. The report says that it was unnecessary and that it was forced. And you're disputing that.

HAYDEN: No. The report -- the report referring to one e-mail with one very bad taste comment has used that e-mail to make this judgment.

Now, don't you think they should have talked to someone? What did you mean by this? Did everyone else around in making this decision...

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: Let me grant you the point right now that the committee should have interviewed witnesses.

HAYDEN: OK, thank you. Right. TAPPER: A hundred percent, I agree with you. And let's even say that

it would be better if this report were a bipartisan report and the entire committee signed off on it. I agree with all of that.

I'm a little dumbfounded that you're saying that rectal rehydration, which I have never heard of, and there is -- when they force-feed prisoners in Guantanamo, I can understand that's being done in the name of keeping those prisoners alive because there's no other way to keep them alive.

I had never heard of it being done rectally. And the report seems to make it clear it's being -- it's a method of interrogation.

HAYDEN: No. It wasn't a method of interrogation.

And why do you presume automatically, without any further evidence, OK, that we were doing it for interrogation purposes, but it's just and noble when being done at Guantanamo?

TAPPER: It's described as a method of torture in this...

HAYDEN: Described by who?

TAPPER: In the Senate report.

HAYDEN: They an objective observer?

TAPPER: I don't even know what...

(CROSSTALK)

HAYDEN: Did they talk to witnesses? We're coming full circle, Jake.

TAPPER: We have already agreed that they should have talked to witnesses.

HAYDEN: You said they should have already -- always talked to witnesses, and now you're accepting their conclusion.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: We're running out of time. I want to ask you one other question before I let you go...

HAYDEN: OK.

TAPPER: ... which is, David Petraeus, the former Army general -- you're a former Air Force general -- who became CIA director after you, said in "The Wall Street Journal," he's quoted as telling a conference in Rotterdam that -- quote -- "If you want information from a detainee, you become his best friend."

David Petraeus, of course, had experience with some harsh interrogation methods when he was back at the Army. But as a general principle, is he wrong? If you want information from a detainee, you become his best friend? HAYDEN: I think that's a wonderful technique for a certain class of

detainees.

I think the burden of proof would be on General Petraeus to say that's the best technique to get information from Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.

TAPPER: General Hayden, it's always a pleasure to have you here. And I appreciate your coming here and answering the questions.

HAYDEN: Thank you, Jake. Thank you.

TAPPER: I'm still a little dumbfounded, but we will talk about it later.

In our world lead today, ISIS terrorists brutally beheaded him, and now nearly four months later, those same terrorists are reportedly holding his body ransom. The price that they are asking for its release, $1 million. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

In our world -- as if the story of the beheaded and for ISIS hostage James Foley could not get any more horrific, his corpse is reportedly being shopped around for $1 million.

"BuzzFeed" reports that ISIS middlemen have tried to approach the Foley family, as well as the U.S. government, about paying for the former photojournalist's remains. The White House spokeswoman tells CNN they are seeking more information. And, if true, it's another example of the group's, quote, "depravity." Foley's parents have in the past claimed that American officials threatened them with prosecution if they paid a ransom for their son's release alive.

Paul Cruickshank is a CNN terrorism analyst, and joins me live now on set.

Paul, if the Obama administration stopped the Foley family for paying to get him out alive, would they also stop him from paying to get out his remains?

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: There's no chance that any kind of ransom for the remains is going to be paid, $1 million or otherwise. That would be money that would go to ISIS and fund their terrorist activities.

This is a group that has now said it's going to come after the United States and is encouraging people here to launch terror attacks. So, there's no chance that money is going to come from the U.S. to ISIS for these remains.

TAPPER: General John Allen is a special presidential envoy for the coalition fighting ISIS. And he spoke today about the brutality employed by ISIS. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. JOHN ALLEN, SPECIAL PRESIDENTIAL ENVOY: We have been so exposed to this organization that in some respects and I don't believe that anyone necessarily in this audience would be, but sometimes people become desensitized to how horrendous this organization truly is and what it has done to the people that it has conquered and what it is prepared to do to the other people that is prepared to conquer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Do you think that's true? Do you think the public is becoming desensitized to how horrific ISIS is?

CRUICKSHANK: Well, I think it's inevitable to some degree, you had all these images coming out, these beheadings. Some of these videos are just too horrible to even kind of talk when you sort of have to watch it from a sort of journalistic point of view.

So, I think there is some desensitization. But according to a report that came out of the U.K. today, in just the last month, this group massacred 2,000 people in Iraq and Syria, huge amount of brutality still going on and will continue to go on.

TAPPER: Where is the U.S.-led in this fight against ISIS? Is it winning? Is it -- does it have ISIS on its heels? Is it losing?

CRUICKSHANK: They have managed to stall ISIS' momentum. They've limited its freedom of movement to some degree, the ability to move fighters around because of these airstrikes. ISIS has lost some territory north of Baghdad, south of Baghdad. But it still controls vast areas of Anbar province. It still controls Mosul, vast areas of Syria.

So, there's a long, long way still to go. And ISIS has made some gains in other respects in recent weeks. The powerful Egyptian jihadist group has joined its ranks. Also, ISIS fighters or veterans of the fighting in Syria and Iraq have moved back to Libya and have created a zone of control in eastern Libya, in Derna. So, it's still a long, long way to go in this fight against ISIS.

TAPPER: Al Qaeda in Yemen, as we've discussed, has denounced ISIS and its tactics, calling them barbaric. How can they exploit this chasm between these terrorist groups?

CRUICKSHANK: Well, in some respect, sort of stand back and let these groups argue. This group -- al Qaeda on one side and ISIS on the other, fighting each other in Syria. There's no love lost between them. Al Qaeda in Yemen just last month said they didn't think that ISIS' caliphate was legitimate.

So, there's this big feud which continues between ISIS and al Qaeda. The worry, though, is that the air strikes when it comes to ISIS, and you could ISIS get more support from the global jihadist movement. But for the moment, there is still a lot of feuding going on between these groups.

TAPPER: All right. Sit back, let them fight. Paul Cruickshank, thank you so much.

Massive power outages, winds topping 100 miles an hour, up to 15 inches of rain, it is the worst storm in five years and it's not over yet. We'll go there live, next.

Plus, criminals walking free while the evidence to convict them sits on a shelf. Why police need a compromise on Capitol Hill to solve these crimes. That's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD.

The national lead now -- it's that time of year when the East Coast and West Coast and everywhere in between have something to bond over, the terrible weather. As the snow continues to pound Upstate New York today, parts of the West Coast are now experiencing what might be the area's worst storm in decades.

Here's the scene in California -- heavy rainfall creating wild currents, and literally flooding the streets.

Joining me from San Francisco -- it doesn't look like San Francisco -- CNN correspondent Dan Simon.

Dan, pretty bad there, huh?

DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Jake, it has been raining hard all day long and the conditions are just downright miserable. We're talking about flooded streets, fallen trees, widespread power outages. So, it appears that this storm is leaving up to its hype as being one of the worst storms we've seen in Northern California in the past several years.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SIMON (voice-over): #stormageddon. That's how many are labeling California's worst storm in many years. Pounding rain causing some streets to flood and rivers to rise, a grocery store parking lot turned into a lake.

The powerful winds shaking area bridges, making driving hazardous, and those same hurricane-like conditions knocking out power to 150,000 people and businesses in the Bay Area. Including this restaurant in downtown San Francisco that can't open.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, it cannot. It's a safety issue. Corners are blocked off and somebody falls. So, we can't do that.

SIMON: At the San Francisco International Airport, at least 225 flights canceled. Ferry service also halted for many routes today but this rider was able to make his daily commute to the city.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was pretty bumpy. We got -- I swear we had -- we were airborne as we were going up and down and everybody was in great spirits and laughing. But it was not normal ferry ride today. SIMON: Northeast of the city, it began snowing in the Sierra Nevada

near Lake Tahoe where 2 to 3 feet of snow is indicated. Wind gusts clocking in at 107 miles per hour. The same storm system hitting Washington state a day earlier, the rising tide eroding beaches and destroying at least two houses.

Back here in California, the miserable conditions come with one positive side effect. The state in the middle of a record three-year drought can use all the moisture it can get.

(on camera): What do you make of all of this rain?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We need it but I wish it can come more evenly spread out. Instead of all one night, you just got to roll with the punches. It will be fine.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SIMON: Well, all of this indeed is great for the drought but, Jake, if there's one thing that experts agree on, is that we'll need several more of these kinds of storms before we begin to think about ending this drought. Nonetheless, this moisture is definitely welcome relief. Let's just hope that the flooding doesn't become more widespread.

Back to you.

TAPPER: All right. Dan Simon in San Francisco, thank you so much.

It feels like these months ago, I was reporting the same thing, Congress is now just hours away from shutting down the government because they just can't seem to work together. And this time it's not just Democrats and Republicans battling each other, it's Democrats against Democrats, Republicans against Republicans. Will they finally get something done before the midnight deadline? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)