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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Is North Korea Waging a Cyberwar?; Stars Slam Sony for Pulling "The Interview"; President Opens Door to Cuba Travel

Aired December 18, 2014 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Gordon, we were talking seconds ago with Congressman Mike McCaul, the chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee about whether or not if the United States retaliates against North Korea, if it officially announces that is who they hold responsible, whether or not that will lead to a cyber-war. What's your take?

GORDON CHANG, COLUMNIST, FORBES.COM: Well, there will be escalations no matter what we do. For the last two decades, our companies have been attacked by China, Russia, and perhaps Iran. We did very, very little and that's the reason why we are today.

Because the North Koreans saw that they could go after Sony because they were pushing on an open door. That's really the problem. You know, there's the commission, the Blair House Commission talked about the loss of intellectual property in the U.S. perhaps as much as $475 billion a year, much of that from cyber. We have done very, very little to protect our companies.

TAPPER: Hamu, do you think Bureau 121 is behind the Sony hack on its own or do you think that other nations might be involved? It's a very sophisticated attack.

HAMU NIGAM, CYBERSECURITY EXPERT: Well, when it comes to cyber- warfare has been going around like you just heard, for many, many years and I think the reality is not so much are other countries helping, but what are other hackers doing?

Because right now I think there's a bunch of hackers out there, whether they are working for our nation state or on their own, who are having a party because they are seeing the amount of damage that you can do. This wasn't just an attack on Sony.

Let's call it what it is. This is people who march through U.S. security quietly in the middle of the night, entered into a building, caused all sorts of damage and then decided to attack the American people by placing threats on them if they decide to go to the movies because, in essence, it's attacking core American values.

And that's why I think our discussion -- and I'm glad you're having this, really needs to be around what is the White House going to do because they need to do something. Sony knows how to protect its network. Hollywood is going to be focused unbelievably on that.

I'm hearing that and I know that, but the real question is, can they fight a nation state? Are hackers like this acting like a nation state? And the answer is, not really. That's where the government has to come in and do a private/public partnership.

TAPPER: Gordon, why is North Korea doing this? Is it really about this one stoner movie that insults Kim Jong-un? Is that really what is motivating this?

CHANG: I think they are really worried about regime survival. They are not concerned about theatrical release in the U.S. because North Korean citizens, but what is happening is South Korean activists have said that they are going to take DVDs of these movies, put them into balloons, which separates North and South Korea.

So citizens can find these DVDs and that, I think, is important for the regime and that's what they are concerned about at the end of the day, is North Korea seeing this.

TAPPER: Hemu, has Sony's decision to pull the film, do you think, emboldened not just North Korea, but other countries who want to get at the U.S.?

NIGAM: Well, I think what's happened is we have, in essence, negotiated with terrorists and I completely feel for Sony executives and the position they are in because you cannot have somebody going to a movie theater watching this movie and getting hurt.

We've sent out a message, if you attack, whether you're company, a hacker working for a government or not, there may be negotiating possibilities. If you just don't like Americans, you may decide to do it. If you don't like corporate America, you may decide to do it.

There are all sorts of things that are going to be inspired so this is going to affect every channel of American society and I think we can't just turn the channel here, write a script where Tom Cruise comes in and saves the day. It's not going to happen.

This is going to have to be taken extremely seriously by the U.S. government working with its companies and corporations and making the American people feel better and that there's leadership in the White House because that's what it is going to need right now.

TAPPER: Hemu Nigam and Gordon, thank you for talking about this important issue. We appreciate it.

The Pop Culture Lead, in an unexpected twist Sony's decision has actually managed to get some hardcore Hollywood liberals and prominent Republicans on the same page. So maybe the terrorists have not won, after all?

From Mitt Romney to Michael Moore, there has been widespread backlash against Sony for pulling the film "The Interview" over the terrorism threats. Celebrity critics took to Twitter polling the movie everything from an act of cowardice to moral freedom.

Filmmaker, Michael Moore, who directed and produced the highly controversial film "Fahrenheit 9/11" released a statement today, which reads in part, "both the studio and myself plus some theaters received numerous threats warning us not to show it. None of this deterred any of us from releasing Fahrenheit 9/11. We just hired more security."

Let's go live now to CNN's Paul Vercammen who is in Los Angeles with more Hollywood reaction. Paul, was this a lose-lose scenario for Sony?

PAUL VERCAMMEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It was, Jake. In fact, this is a Hollywood ending that nobody likes.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To go kill Kim Jong-Un?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Totally --

VERCAMMEN (voice-over): But there's no release date for "The Interview." Plans to release the dark comedy on Christmas day killed by Sony Pictures. instead of flowers on the walk of fame after a celebrity death, billboards are coming down. Hollywood is riled up especially on Twitter.

Rob Lowe, who appears in the film with stars Seth Rogen and James Franco tweeted everyone caved. The move led to outrage and according to superstar, Chris Rock, fear.

CHRIS ROCK, ACTOR: This whole thing is just scary, man. It's like, you know, e-mails and private stuff and the whole town is scared. Nobody knows what --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nobody knows what to do? Nobody knows what to do.

VERCAMMEN: Except rant from Ben Stiller to Stephen King to Donald Trump.

DONALD TRUMP: Well, I hear it is a terrible, terrible movie. Sony has no courage or guts.

VERCAMMEN: Their own going theme Sony just stepped on the first amendment and its own money making comedy team of Rogen and Franco in this marijuana-laced action comedy. In fact, it is stranger than fiction, two American comedians and an enraged North Korean government.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you imagine if we wind up in a war because of the guys from Pineapple Express?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VERCAMMEN: And another strange twist in all of these, some small theaters plan to show "Team America World Police," as the terrorism parody from the South Park team. They are now pulling that movie saying that Paramount wants it out. We tried to reach Paramount, by the way, and have not received a comment back yet -- Jake.

TAPPER: Paul Vercammen, thank you so much. Turning to our tech lead, Google found a unique way to preserve a piece of "Comedy Central"'s "Colbert Report" as you likely know. Tonight is Stephen Colbert's final show on basic cable before he heads to the fancy network CBS to take over for David Letterman who is retiring next year.

But before crews tear down the set, check out what Google did. It created a virtual version of the "Colbert Report" set. Now you can explore all the items on the shelves behind them.

There is the Captain America shield, the portrait of Stephen Colbert standing in front of a portrait of Stephen Colbert. You get the point. You can see how close the audience sits to Colbert. Google has a business view of its street view that can let you see inside some companies.

Colbert will sign off tonight on Comedy Central where he has worked since 1997. He started as a correspondent for "The Daily Show."

Just how is President Obama brokering these deals with isolated countries such as Cuba and North Korea, we'll talk about the details and back-channel negotiations that some kept secret even from the Pentagon. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper. We're going to turn to other world news. A new era of U.S. foreign policy, like it or not, is on full display. President Obama back when he was Senator Obama, stated that he hoped to reverse America's relationships with some of its most notorious enemies including Cuba and Iran.

He said he wanted to engage their leaders in conversations and try to find common ground has not always worked, but the president has shown he is trying to play in this high-stakes game of global diplomacy, especially when U.S. hostages are at stake.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER (voice-over): Yesterday, another emotional home coming made possible by what we now know was a year's worth of secret meetings and hushed phone calls. Details of Alan Gross' release and the new U.S. position towards Cuba were hashed out between delegations from both countries at the Vatican the results of months of encouragement from the pope.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I want to thank his holiness, Pope Francis, whose moral example shows us the importance of pursuing the world as it should be.

TAPPER: The historic announcement to normalize relations with Cuba is the latest example of Obama's back channel go it alone foreign policy. An example the Pentagon did not know about until just hours before it unfolded.

ALAN GROSS, FREED BY CUBA: Ultimately, the decision to arrange for and secure my release was made in the oval office. To President Obama and the NSC staff, thank you. TAPPER: Obama pledged that he was willing to negotiate with America's enemies during his first campaign.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: The notion of not talking to countries is punishment to them, which has been the guiding diplomatic principle of this administration, is ridiculous.

TAPPER: And now it seems as in the final years of his presidency he's checking off his list with or without Congress. Just last month, North Korea released American hostages, Kenneth Bae and Matthew Todd Miller. President Obama has offered an olive branch to Iran.

When Hassan Rouhani became Iran's president last year, America's confidential nuclear negotiations with the country resumed. And Secretary of State John Kerry struck an interim deal soon after.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Today, that diplomacy opened up a new path towards a world that is more secure.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have some concerns about this deal.

TAPPER: As for Bowe Bergdahl, this moment came in exchange for the release of five Taliban prisoners being held at Guantanamo Bay.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: We saw an opportunity and we seized it, and I make no apologies for that.

TAPPER: The swap was three years in the making. Sporadic conversations and proposals with the Taliban were mediated through the government of Qatar.

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER (R), OHIO: So now the new policy is we don't negotiate with terrorists directly.

TAPPER: Legislators from both parties complained that the Obama administration failed to notify Congress ahead of time as required by law.

CHUCK HAGEL, DEFENSE SECRETARY: We could have done a better job. We could have done a better job of keeping you informed.

TAPPER: When it comes to global deal making, Obama continues to play it close to the vest.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER: The decision to open relations with Cuba is particularly contentious right now. Let's turn to CNN political commentator, Jay Carney, who served as White House press secretary under President Obama, and Bill Kristol, editor of the conservative publication, "The Weekly Standard."

Both are in our Washington Bureau. Jay, let me start with you. Why now with Cuba? Do you think this is about the president's legacy?

JAY CARNEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, Jake, it's certainly about promises he made and an approach he takes to foreign policy that has been consistent since he ran for office in 2007 and 2008.

The negotiations that led to this point took a lot of time and key to them, obviously, was the release of Alan Gross. Absent that, this would not have happened.

I think that you will see the president, as we've already seen already in these final two years while he's in office, exercising every bit of authority that he has to do what he believes is right for the American people and for our national security interests.

You know, one of the narratives before the midterm elections that I think was wrong, not all of them were wrong, but one was wrong, is that he had sort of run out of gas and was himself eyeing the exits and sort of tired of being president.

And I really didn't believe that was true and I know that because he's so focused on the time that is left and how rare that opportunity is, that he's just going to keep doing these kinds of things often against criticism.

TAPPER: Bill, I know you're not exactly lighting a Cuban cigar over the announcement. But what do you say to the argument by Rand Paul and President Obama that the previous policy towards Cuba simply hasn't worked?

WILLIAM KRISTOL, EDITOR, "THE WEEKLY STANDARD": I think it worked to some degree. Certainly in the cold war years prevented exporting communism to South America and indeed there was kind of a democratic revolution in the '80s and '90s.

Maybe it had run its course, but we could have democratically discussed this with Congress and the public. The president didn't have to do this in secret. There wasn't anything that sensitive about that. Maybe the negotiations to get the hostage back would have to be secret.

But if you're making a change of 50 years of bipartisan foreign policy, you might want to let the country discuss it for a while, but more broadly, Jake, you showed the president has done all of this outreach.

Are things working out great with the Taliban, with Iran, with North Korea? I mean, is this general policy of being extremely nice to our enemies and giving a cold shoulder to our allies and friends working out well?

TAPPER: Jay?

CARNEY: Look, I would say what he has done in the case of Cuba and Iran, which are the two most prominent countries now, is tested the proposition that we can actually get something done that's better for our national security interests, whether or not we get a deal with Iran is still an open question. But it certainly in our interests to pursue on because the only way to ensure that Iran doesn't acquire a nuclear weapon is to reach an agreement so they will not pursue one. You cannot continue the way we have in the past and simply cross our fingers that it won't happen while they are operating in secret.

There's a lot of complications with that kind of deal but he's going to see if it can get done. On Cuba, I think the time has long since passed when the previous policy was effective.

The idea that we can't have diplomatic relations with regimes that abuse human rights is pretty novel given that we have diplomatic relations with countries around the world where the regimes abused human rights because we believe it's in our national interest and our national security interest.

KRISTOL: If that were the case, I would say fine but given his total failure to do that and his desire for a deal's sake, has he done much for human rights in North Korea, in Iran? I wish he were advancing freedom and human right agenda.

TAPPER: Jay, do you think President Obama is going to travel to Cuba while he is president or are we going to see a visit by Raul Castro to the White House?

CARNEY: I think in each case that's unlikely. Normalizing relations does not necessarily mean that we have good relations. In fact, we don't have good relations. The regime continues to jail political dissidence and I think this administration, the United States in general continue to aggressively condemn that.

And hold up that example as reprehensible to the world. So I wouldn't expect that at all unless there was a sudden change in the approach to regime takes.

TAPPER: Bill, some argue that this announcement gives Republicans, such as JEB BUSH and Marco Rubio, a good issue to talk about if they run for president. But polls suggest that a majority of Americans do support changing our relationship with Cuba.

Here's a poll that we're showing you right now from the Atlantic Council, 56 percent favor it and 35 percent oppose it.

KRISTOL: You can't make every foreign policy decision based on polls. I think Republicans will be safe if they make the case this president has not strengthened this country. He has not strengthened the hands of citizens in oppressive regimes.

Let's see in Cuba. I'll be happy if in two years from now there is more liberty for the residents of Cuba, but that has not been the case with his outreach to Iran, to the Taliban and to the Muslim world.

I wish it were but I think people in the government of these countries see what the president is doing as weakness not as pressure on them to change. TAPPER: Jay, let me just ask you real quickly, I want to turn to the hacking of Sony and the threats against American movie goers and movie theaters. The president said Americans should go to the movies, to the world it looks like Sony, the theaters, maybe the American people blinked.

What do you think about the idea of the president having a show showing of "The Interview" at the White House? Would that show how we respond to these threats?

CARNEY: Well, I think it's interesting. If it weren't a slapstick comedy, I would be more supportive, but I think the president ought to speak out about it. I think the political leaders must make a clear point, in our country, even if it's speech that people don't like, it's free speech.

And we cannot accept this circumstance which sets an enormously dangerous precedent for other bad actors around the world to try to control what American viewers or leaders get to see and hear.

TAPPER: Taking a shot at slapstick, I recall President Obama going on between two ferns with Zach Galliphinakis. Bill Kristol and Jay Carney, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

With an ease on travel restrictions, is it time to book a flight to Havana? Hold off on searching for the best airfare, why making the trip might be much easier said than done.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. Our "Money Lead." Forget Cancun and Panama City and South Padre Island. Next year's hot spring break location, Cuba, come for the rum and cigars and stay for the human rights abuses.

The island in the Caribbean could be a tourist hot spot now that the U.S. is relaxing travel restrictions. Rene Marsh is CNN's aviation and government regulation correspondent. She joins me now. Rene, how soon could we see a travel boom to Cuba?

RENE MARSH, CNN AVIATION AND GOVERNMENT CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, I spoke to many in the industry who say the demand is there. The travel industry is salivating at the idea and someone watching us today took some time to daydream about sipping that rum cocktail on a Cuban beach, but, not so fast.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARSH (voice-over): Havana, once dubbed the Latin Las Vegas. Images of Carmen singing with fruit in her hair and movie stars dancing their night away at the Tropicana Nightclub. Exotic Caribbean flavor and distinct culture made Americans fall in love with Cuba before the revolution. Caught in a time warp, it still looks strikingly similar to when Lucy and Ricky visited when the cars were new.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's only 90 miles from U.S. shores. The demand is there.

MARSH: The president's new policy makes some travel, like educational and humanitarian trips easier. But it does not lift the embargo or allow for tourism.

CHRISTOPHER BAKER, AUTHOR, "MOON CUBA" GUIDEBOOK: The forbidden fruit aspect, millions and millions of Americans wishing to explore Cuba themselves.

MARSH: Last year, less than 100,000 Americans visited most on charters operated by airlines like American and JetBlue. But an industry group predicts 2 million more would go in the next two years if all restrictions were lifted and the infrastructure may not be ready. The retro look attracting Americans conceals decades old water, electrical and transportation systems.

BAKER: It's going to take some time for the airlines and cruise ships to put their plans in place, but they are already geared up for that date. They know what their itineraries would look like, et cetera. They are salivating at the potential that Cuba holds.

MARSH: But for the potential to be realized, Congress would have to lift the embargo and there is resistance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is just another concession to a tyranny.

MARSH: But Wednesday's decision has filled the travel industry with hope that Cuban tourism is around the corner.

BAKER: The most important thing yesterday is not that we established diplomatic relations, but that it changed the ball game and the discussion in Congress.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MARSH: I polled all of the major airlines and cruise lines. They all applaud the move. What we saw yesterday is the president going as far as he could under the law to open up travel to Cuba. Anything more, Jake, we would need an act from Congress.

TAPPER: Rene Marsh, thank you so much. That's it for THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper. Turning you over now to Wolf Blitzer in The Situation Room.