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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Interview With Ohio Congressman Michael Turner; Malls Under Threat?; Oscars Get Political; Mueller Family Slams "No Ransom" Policy; Families Fear Missing Teens Have Crossed Syrian Border

Aired February 23, 2015 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: They have already attacked one mall overseas. Now they are calling for it to happen here.

I'm Jake Tapper. This is THE LEAD.

The national lead: terrorists with ties to al Qaeda calling for their followers to massacre innocent people at the Mall of America in Minnesota.

The world lead. Her parents stayed silent for more than a year while the terrorists of ISIS held their daughter hostage, but now Kayla Mueller's mom and dad are speaking up and they say the Obama administration had a chance to get Kayla out alive, but the administration put policy before their daughter's life.

Plus, the pop culture lead, Hollywood's biggest, most glamorous night upstaged by Hollywood's oldest tradition, political pontificating.

Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

We are going to begin today with our national lead, right now police showing force at the Mall of America as the man atop the agency tasked with keeping the homeland safe from terror attacks warns shoppers to be on the lookout. The secretary of the Department of Homeland Security, Jeh Johnson, told CNN that mall-goers need to be -- quote -- "particularly careful."

Why? Well, Al-Shabaab, the terrorist group with ties to al Qaeda, and members from the United States posted a video threat and in the tape, a man speaking English asks the terrorist group's followers in the U.S., U.K. and Canada to shoot up shoppers.

Lest we think this is an empty threat from a stupid group that can be ignored, Al-Shabaab has done this before, to bloody ends, in Nairobi, Kenya in September 2013. The terrorist group massacred 67 people at an upscale shopping center frequented by Westerners.

In a bulletin to police across the country today, DHS and FBI officials say there are no specific, credible threats against malls in the United States right now, but the law enforcement groups caution that does not mean there are not lone wolves designing deadly plots or that the video could not recruit more people to the terrorist cause.

I want to go right to CNN's Brian Todd. He is outside the Mall of America, the shopping megaplex named in that terrorist video.

Brian, the mall stepped up its security presence in light of this threat. What are they doing to make sure something like that Westgate attack does not happen here?

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Jake, they are taking all sorts of measures seen and unseen to step up security in the wake of that Al- Shabaab video.

We got word a short time ago that they did a lockdown drill a few hours ago inside the Mall of America. It was just a drill, where they locked down some businesses. That was at about 10:00 a.m. local time, 11:00 a.m. Eastern time. We are told that they are going to do another one later tonight, but, again, just a drill.

It did take some customers by surprise, but, otherwise, a lot of the measures they're doing here are not seen. We are told by a consultant, a security consultant to the Mall of America that they have got plainclothes police officers roaming around, of course surveillance cameras.

They have got their own intelligence branch inside this mall, Jake, to monitor a lot of these threats, including people who are trained in essentially profiling, behavior detection, things like that. It's a very sophisticated security operation here. It has existed for some years, but all of that now being stepped up in the wake of this Shabaab video -- Jake.

TAPPER: And to give people, our viewers, just some idea of how big the Mall of America is, if they haven't been there before, 11,000 people work at the mall, 40 million people walk its miles and miles of corridors each year. How is the mood there today?

TODD: Well, it's kind of mixed, Jake. Some people are kind of taking this in stride, saying, look, if it happens, it happens. I'm going to keep shopping here. But one woman told us she's scared, she brings her kids in here. This is a huge mall, as you mentioned. It's got an amusement park inside.

You said 40 million people go in and out of here. This is one of those things, it's a so-called soft target. It's got more than a dozen entrances and like every mall in America, it is very easily accessible to the public.

But another point of concern, you mentioned Al-Shabaab. They have recruited about two dozen young Somali Americans from this Minneapolis area to go and fight with Al-Shabaab in Somalia. Many of them have died. One of them became a suicide bomber. Now ISIS is recruiting young Somalis from this area to go fight with ISIS.

The fear is that one of them may come back with an American passport or, maybe inspired by things like this video, they might just get a sympathizer who is already here to come here and strike.

TAPPER: Brian Todd outside the Mall of America in Minnesota, thank you so much. Let's bring in CNN justice correspondent Pamela Brown.

Pamela, the FBI has obviously been preparing and drilling for years to prepare for any threat against malls or other soft targets you heard Brian mention.

Does law enforcement really think that this threat might materialize, or are they just -- is this just a case of better safe than sorry?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: You know, it's always better safe than sorry. He said they have been preparing for this, but the real concern is that it could materialize, Jake, in the form of these lone wolf attacks that we just heard Brian talk about.

So that's why we are seeing in large part this beefed-up security outside those malls listed as specific targets, and now some shopping center chains are pushing back and trying to convince potential patrons it's safe to shop.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): Today, Westfield Malls releasing a new statement saying there is no imminent threat to its shopping centers in the wake of a new alarming video from terrorist group Al-Shabaab calling on attacks at specific malls in the U.S., Canada and the U.K. similar to this attack two years ago, when Al-Shabaab militants raided the upscale Westgate Mall in Nairobi and held shoppers hostage for four days, leaving more than 60 people dead.

The new call for attacks on malls around the world prompting a rare warning from Homeland Security Chief Jeh Johnson to shoppers at Mall of America in Minneapolis, the only U.S. mall Al-Shabaab named.

JEH JOHNSON, U.S. SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY: If anyone is planning to go to the Mall of America today, they have got to be particularly careful.

BROWN: U.S. law enforcement officials tell CNN it's unlikely the Somali-based terrorist group has the ability to launch a coordinated attack in the U.S. The real danger, they say, is someone in the U.S. seeing this latest propaganda and being inspired to launch an attack.

BOB BAER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: We have a large Somali community in Minneapolis. They are not assimilated well, a lot of disaffected unemployed young men, a lot of young men turning to Islam. And they are just hoping that someone will pick up the flag and attack the Mall of America.

BROWN: As security is beefed up in malls listed as potential targets by Al-Shabaab, the FBI and DHS sent out a joint warning asking law enforcement across the country to stay vigilant, although there are no known credible threats to any American malls right now.

The FBI has long conducted mock attacks at U.S. shopping centers to test their readiness, but a series of mall shootings in the past few years, including a deadly shooting at this mall in Nebraska in 2007, show how shopping centers could be easy targets. National security experts say it's difficult to fully protect all the different types of soft targets in the U.S., like trains, movie theaters and sporting events.

BAER: Any place Americans congregate is vulnerable to attack. And there's nothing we can do. We are an open society. You can't arrest somebody for having a bad thought. And with the availability of chemicals and automatic weapons in this country, we are at risk.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Certainly a scary thought there.

A statement today from the Minnesota Somali Muslim community condemned this threat against the Mall of America and said that, "We must not allow a terror group to achieve its goal of spreading fear and panic."

And a lot of people say that's exactly what they were trying to do with this video.

TAPPER: Pamela Brown, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

Let's bring in Republican Congressman Mike Turner, who sits on the House Intelligence Committee. Congressman, good to see you. Thanks for joining us.

You are going to get a briefing on the Al-Shabaab video and their call to attack the Mall of America this week. How serious a threat do you take this group to be?

REP. MICHAEL TURNER (R), OHIO: Well, I think this is why we need a global strategy, Jake.

This is, in effect, a terrorist attack. Their goal, terrorism, as you know, is to cause fear and their attempt is to cause fear. Now, whether or not these particular threats are real or not, these organizations are. As you pointed out, Al-Shabaab having ties to al Qaeda, has previously orchestrated these types of attacks.

And I think we need to make certain that we don't just look at this as isolated geographic instances. This is not just, how do we deal with Paris or how do we deal with the al Qaeda threat to the Mall of America? It's how do we deal globally with these terrorist groups and organizations, to take down their capabilities, to take their ability to threaten Americans?

TAPPER: Right, but different groups have different reaches and different groups have different abilities. I know that, in the past, the group ISIS vs. the al Qaeda remnants in Syria -- plus, then there's Boko Haram. There are a whole -- AQAP -- there are a whole bunch of different terrorist groups.

Is Al-Shabaab considered a serious threat to the United States homeland?

TURNER: Well, I think you just outlined well, Jake, in your description of this in the opening. Any group or organization that has the intent to harm Americans and making these calls and pronouncements can both have a direct threat and also the effect of soliciting or encouraging others to take action.

But, in this instance, what we see, unfortunately -- and this is something that the United States needs to turn to, that the president needs to turn to -- as we have retreated from these areas and these groups have grown and taken hold, the threat to the West and to the United States has grown.

This is something that needs to be addressed because if we don't take this fight directly to them to take down their capabilities, both financially, structurally and their leadership, we will see threats like this continue to be a risk for us.

TAPPER: You were talking about how, in a way, Al-Shabaab had already achieved something by creating terror, creating fear.

Minnesota is home to the largest Somali population in the U.S., Somalia, of course, home to Al-Shabaab's base of operations. Do you think that there is actually a link there, or are they -- is the group, in your estimation, hoping somebody in Minnesota is inspired by this video, or are they trying to alienate Somali Americans from the rest of the population?

TURNER: Well, I think your last point is certainly an important one.

We should not look suspiciously at just anyone who has either roots or faith in Islam or comes regionally from an area. The issue is one of these terrorist organizations that take the terrorism -- terrorism, Islamic extremism to the point of wanting to hurt Americans.

We can't succumb to their culture of fear that they want to impose upon us. At the same time, we need to remain diligent. It's very good to see what the Mall of America is doing. It's good to see what Homeland Security is doing. But what we need to do is a global strategy that makes them at risk, instead of our being at risk.

TAPPER: Congressman Mike Turner from Dayton, Ohio, thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

Here in the United States, new criticism over the U.S. government's policy to not pay ransom for terror hostages. The parents of Kayla Mueller, who was held hostage by ISIS, say that rule factored into their daughter's death. But another American was released after the U.S. government was willing to cut a deal for him. Just when is it OK to negotiate with terrorists?

That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

Our world lead today: breaking their silence. The family of 26-year- old Kayla Mueller, who was killed while being held hostage by ISIS in Syria, is accusing the U.S. government of prioritizing a public policy principle above their daughter's life. For a year and a half, Carl and Marcia Mueller said they kept their daughter's captivity a secret hoping their negotiations with the terrorist group would bring her home safely.

CNN national correspondent Kyung Lah is live in Los Angeles with the latest.

Kyung, not only did the Obama administration policy forbid her parents from paying any ransom, the Muellers are charging that the administration's negotiation for a different hostage hurt their efforts to save Kayla's life.

KYUNG LAH, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Something they certainly could not have predicted and did not expect, that another person's situation could have affected their daughter. What they were told is that the U.S. does not pay ransom, does not negotiate with terrorists and now well-known U.S. policy regarding U.S. civilians.

What this family says, though, is that that policy was ultimately put ahead of their own daughter's life.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LAH (voice-over): Twenty-six-year-old Kayla Mueller's capture mirrored others in many ways, a civilian grabbed by ISIS, the threat of death.

But her parents told NBC's "Today" show there was one difference.

CARL MUELLER, KAYLA'S FATHER: I really feel that we had a chance to get Kayla out because we were in communications with them, unlike the other families, but how do you raise $6.2 million?

LAH: Even if they could, Kayla's parents would be breaking U.S. policy and violating federal law, giving money to a terrorist group.

Then that vital communication with Kayla's captors fell apart when the U.S. traded five Taliban detainees for American soldier Bowe Bergdahl, who was held for five years by the Taliban.

ERIC MUELLER, KAYLA'S BROTHER: That made the whole situation worse. Because that's when the demands got greater, they got larger. They realized that they had something. They realized that, well, if they're going to let five people go for one person, why won't they do this?

LAH: Why? Because Kayla Mueller is a civilian. Bowe Bergdahl, a U.S. serviceman -- an unfair distinction to determine which American hostages to negotiate for, say the Muellers.

CARL MUELLER: I actually asked the president that question when we were in the White House. Yes, that was pretty hard.

MARSHA MUELLER, KAYLA'S MOTHER: I think they wanted to but I think again, the policy. LAH: A sentiment echoed by the mother of American hostage James

Foley. ISIS held Foley alongside Kayla Mueller and executed him. Foley's mother says she felt her son was not a priority.

DIANE FOLEY, JAMES FOLEY'S MOTHER: It didn't seem to be in our strategic interest, if you will. I was appalled as an American. Jim would have been saddened. Jim believed until the end that his country would come to their aid.

LAH: The White House defended the policy to not negotiate with terrorists for civilians, saying, overall, it makes Americans safer.

JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president is confident that his administration did do everything that was possible within the confines of that policy, using our military might, using our intelligence capability, using our diplomatic influence, to try to secure the safe release and return of Kayla Mueller.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LAH: Late last year, President Obama ordered a comprehensive review of the policy. Jake, part of that review will involve how the White House communicates with the families -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Kyung Lah live in Los Angeles, thanks for that report.

As Kyung mentioned, the Mueller family believes the decision to swap five members of the Taliban held at Guantanamo Bay for Army Sergeant Bowe Bergdahl ruined any hope of successfully negotiating Kayla's freedom.

Bergdahl, of course, went missing in Afghanistan in 2009. He was held captive by enemy forces until May of last year when the Obama White House agreed to the exchange. Bergdahl is currently on desk duty at Fort Sam Houston in San Antonio, Texas. Questions still remain about the circumstances of his disappearance.

Soldiers with whom he served have accused the former POW of dissertation. The army investigation into Bergdahl's actions which could potentially result in a court martial is complete and awaiting release. But so far, no word on what the decision is.

The deaths of Kayla Mueller and three other American hostages in ISIS custody have raised serious questions about the Obama administration's refusal to engage in negotiations for their release. Joining us to discuss that policy is Tim Clemente, former counterterrorism agent for the FBI who dealt with kidnappings while working in Iraq in 2004 and 2007.

Tim, thanks so much for being here. We appreciate it.

First of all, just to underscore, the bad guys in this story are ISIS. Everybody has the best of intentions in the United States, whether or not they disagree, obviously heartbreaking for these families.

Do you think the policy needs to change? TIM CLEMENTE, FORMER FBI COUNTERTERRORISM AGENT: No, I don't. When

you say heartbreaking, I have complete empathy for what these families are going through. I understand it. I have never experienced anything like it. I don't know what it would be like for me to do it as a parent.

But I can say as an FBI agent and as a representative of the United States government, working overseas on these kind of cases, all it does is embolden this enemy. If we look at the early stages of ISIS in 2007 and 2008 before they were well known in 2010, they were doing things like extortion, bank robberies, robbing from gold shops and kidnappings. Those were their only sources of income. That's what sustained them to get to the point of taking over large swaths of territory in Syria and Iraq. So, without the ransoms that were paid early on, ISIS may not be the

problem it is today.

TAPPER: OK. So, I understand why the government might not want to engage in this, but should the families be allowed? Should they be legally permitted to negotiate for the return of their loved ones?

CLEMENTE: I think that would create a dichotomy that we wouldn't be able to deal with, because the problem is that it still supports terrorism. What's the difference between some of the individuals in the UAE and other countries, that the finger has been pointed at them that they have supported ISIS, giving millions of dollars to ISIS and an individual going to their bank and taking out $5 million and paying a ransom. The end result is the same. ISIS now has money in their coffers to buy more weapons, to lure more people in and to conduct terror attacks.

TAPPER: Certainly, you can understand why the Muellers might think why is the U.S. government which is not allowing us to even negotiate for our daughter's release, why is the government negotiating with this other terrorist group, the Taliban -- although I don't think they are actually officially designated terrorists, but certainly they meet the definition generally -- with this other group, for another prisoner, Bowe Bergdahl. How do you square that?

CLEMENTE: I don't know that I can. I don't know how the administration squares it because the general rule of thumb is we don't negotiate with terrorists. Obviously, negotiating the release of five Taliban leaders to go back into the wild eventually right now, they are being held in some sort of, you know, in lieu of full release, they are on the bench, and that is still a release. They are still able to communicate with their former colleagues.

So I don't understand what the justification for that is. That is clearly negotiating with a group, whether it's not designated as a terrorist group, we are in combat against the Taliban. It's not the end of hostilities where two state powers will release their POWs to each other. It's a completely different situation.

TAPPER: In fact, at least according to the Muellers' account of it, when ISIS heard, when the ISIS terrorists heard about this negotiation going on, that ruined their negotiations for their daughter's release. The Obama administration in a way proved their own point.

CLEMENTE: Exactly. Because what happened, what Kayla's parents are saying is legitimate. Once you reward that behavior by giving away five Taliban leaders, you are rewarding that behavior of kidnapping. That's only going to embolden that enemy.

And now they know, OK, the hands are on the table now and our hand is better than theirs. They are willing to give up five for a soldier. What will they give up for this young girl?

TAPPER: All right. Tim Clemente, thank you so much.

CLEMENTE: Thank you.

TAPPER: Disturbing new video released by ISIS, this time proof of how the terrorist group tries to warp the minds of young children. It's not the only new propaganda targeting the younger generation, of course.

CLEMENTE: Plus, is it too late for three teenaged girls? The scramble to find the teens who may be headed to Syria to join ISIS.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

More now on our world lead: family members of three missing teenage girls who may be trying to join barbaric terrorist ISIS have now come forward with one simple message to the girls: please come home.

Last Tuesday, the British teens were caught on surveillance cameras at London's Gatwick airport before boarding a flight to Turkey. British police are now in Turkey searching desperately for the girls, hoping to find them before they cross the border into Syria. And now, their family members are making emotional public appeals for their return.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's just wrong. It's evil. It's a really evil thing to do. You are breaking up entire families. We just want her to come home. If you watch this, baby, please come home. Mom needs you more than anything in the world. You are a baby.

(END VIDEO CLIP)