Return to Transcripts main page

The Lead with Jake Tapper

Trump, Biden Set For Final Debate; U.S. Tops 1,000 Daily COVID- 19 Deaths. Aired 4-4:30p ET

Aired October 22, 2020 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:02]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: And there will also be Plexiglas barriers separating the candidates, following the president's coronavirus infection.

First lady Melania Trump is making her first public appearance today following her coronavirus battle as well. Trump advisers have been, we're told, pleading with the president to try a different strategy than his frequent interruptions during the first debate.

And Trump sources tell CNN they want him to stay on message, touting his accomplishments and avoiding attacking Dr. Anthony Fauci, as the president has been doing in recent days.

Team Biden, meantime, is preparing the Democratic nominee for the president's personal attacks on his son Hunter Biden.

We have our correspondents covering both Trump and Biden's debate preps.

First, CNN's Jeremy Diamond filed this report on the advice that President Trump is getting.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Before the final presidential debate, President Trump isn't holed up in debate prep. Instead, he's focused on denying the reality of a coronavirus surge that is gripping the country.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: That pandemic is rounding the corner.

DIAMOND: And complaining...

TRUMP: Well, I think the mute is very unfair.

DIAMOND: ... about the debate rules, the moderator, and a recent interview he did with "60 Minutes."

TRUMP: I go through these interviews, every question is a total kill, right, every question? They're going for the kill.

DIAMOND: Trump spent part of his morning attacking CBS News' flagship "60 Minutes" program, accusing host Lesley Stahl of constant interruptions and anger and calling his answers magnificently brilliant, after "60 Minutes" released this clip:

TRUMP: We created the greatest economy in the history of our country.

And the other side was coming in...

LESLEY STAHL, CBS NEWS ANCHOR: You know that -- you know that's not true.

TRUMP: It is totally true.

STAHL: No.

TRUMP: Virtually every number was the best. We had the best economy ever for the period of time.

STAHL: I asked you, what's a priority? I mean, those are all the good things. What do you have to solve?

TRUMP: The priority now is to get back to normal, get back to where we were.

DIAMOND: Trump abruptly ended that interview. And today, before heading to Nashville for the debate, he broke an agreement with CBS and released a 38-minute clip of the interview ahead of Sunday's airdate.

(CROSSTALK)

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Would you shut up, man?

DIAMOND: After turning the first debate into a fiasco with his constant interruptions, President Trump now faces his last, best chance to change the race.

This time, Trump is being advised to lower the temperature, to appear less angry, and deploy self-deprecating humor, sources telling CNN Trump has appeared somewhat receptive to that advice, even as he has shunned more formal debate prep.

TRUMP: What am I doing to prepare? I'm doing this.

DIAMOND: And if he doesn't like the questions, a White House official says he will -- quote -- "answer the questions he wants to."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DIAMOND: And, Jake, as President Trump landed in Nashville, the White House chief of Staff, Mark Meadows, said that the president was tested for the coronavirus in flight and that he tested negative. Of course, we still don't know whether President Trump tested negative for coronavirus before the last debate.

He said that he couldn't remember, leaving us with the distinct impression that he was not tested for coronavirus on the day of that first debate -- Jake.

TAPPER: Yes, they have the information. They just refuse to share it with the public.

Jeremy Diamond, thanks so much.

For the Biden team, tonight is all about ignoring any interruptions or personal attacks by President Trump. Instead, the campaign says that Joe Biden will be focused on speaking directly to the American people about their concerns, as CNN's Arlette Saenz reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER (voice-over): With the election just 12 days away, Joe Biden is facing a final test on the debate stage tonight, as he looks to protect his lead over President Trump.

BIDEN: It's go time. It's the most important election in our lifetimes.

SAENZ: Biden spending the past three days off the campaign trail, preparing to again make his case before an audience of millions.

Biden's advisers say he will speak to issues that are top of mind for American families, like COVID-19 and the economy.

BIDEN: Hopefully, he's going to play by the rules. Hopefully, everybody's been tested. Hopefully, it's all worked out, the way the rules are. I'm looking forward to this.

Thank you.

SAENZ: But the former vice president is also bracing for President Trump to repeat a strategy from the first debate.

TRUMP: Hunter got thrown out of the military for cocaine use.

(CROSSTALK)

BIDEN: That's not true. He wasn't dishonorably...

SAENZ: Launching personal attacks on him and his family.

REP. CEDRIC RICHMOND (D-LA): I think the vice president will look straight past Donald Trump and his theatrics. What he won't do is get in the mud and start talking about the president's kids.

BIDEN: Would you shut up, man?

TRUMP: Who is on your list, Joe?

SAENZ: Biden has welcomed the debate commission's decision on muting microphones, but Biden's advisers have prepared him for the possibility Trump proceeds with his interruptions, even if they're not caught on mic. KATE BEDINGFIELD, BIDEN DEPUTY CAMPAIGN MANAGER: Is he going to be there lobbying personal attacks and interrupting and trying to create chaos? Either way, Joe Biden is going to be there ready. He's going to be ready to talk about his plans.

SAENZ: Ahead of the debate, Biden offering a new answer on a question he's dodged for weeks, expanding the Supreme Court, the Democratic nominee telling "60 Minutes" he would form a bipartisan commission to study possible changes to the courts.

[16:05:09]

BIDEN: I will ask them to over 180 days come back to me with recommendations as to how to reform the court system, because it's getting out of whack.

BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Hello, Philadelphia!

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

SAENZ: While Biden was off the campaign trail, he leaned on some help from his old boss.

OBAMA: I am back here tonight to ask you to deliver the White House for Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.

SAENZ: At a drive-in rally in Philadelphia, former President Barack Obama tore into President Trump.

OBAMA: He hasn't shown any interest in doing the work or helping anybody but himself and his friends or treating the presidency like a reality show that he can use to get attention.

And, by the way, even then, his TV ratings are down. So you know that upsets him.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SAENZ: And President Obama will continue his road show, campaigning for Joe Biden in Miami on Saturday.

And over the next few days, you will see a slate of Democratic surrogates hitting the campaign trail for Joe Biden, from seasoned politicians like Bernie Sanders and Julian Castro to celebrities like Cher and Lizzo.

For Biden's part, he will be back in Delaware tomorrow delivering remarks on COVID-19 and the economy, after his final face-off against the president here in Nashville tonight -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Arlette Saenz, thanks so much.

Here to discuss, CNN political commentators Bakari Sellers and Scott Jennings.

Bakari, let me start with you.

President Trump already complaining that muting the mics is unfair. But if he does interrupt Biden on stage, even if we won't be able to hear it, Biden will still be able to hear it. Are you worried about Biden getting thrown off his game tonight?

BAKARI SELLERS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I mean, I think the president will do it intentionally.

I think that when you have an individual with a stutter who has to focus on every single word, one of the tactics that we saw the president employ in the first debate was attempting to talk over him and make it difficult to focus on those words as they were coming out.

And, yes, that could pose somewhat of an issue.

You know, I think that Cedric Richmond in the clip you played earlier is actually going to -- he actually spoke very highly and spoke to what Joe Biden will be doing, which is trying to look past Donald Trump.

There's a saying that you never wrestle with a pig because you both getting muddy, but the pig likes it. And so he's going to try to stay out of the mud with Donald Trump, but it's going to be very, very difficult.

TAPPER: Scott, what do you want to see from Donald Trump this evening? I mean, we have already heard that he's going to bring up Joe Biden's son Hunter.

He's going to -- obviously, based on how aggressive he was a lot of his last debate, a lot of his advisers are worried he's going to do that. What would you like to see if he was listening to you?

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I'm not opposed to being aggressive.

What I am opposed to is not aggressively prosecuting the case that would convince people to vote for you. So, on the economy, you have to have a contrast. Here's what I would do. Here's what Biden would do, on taxes, on Green New Deal, on the courts. You know, there's a whole number of issues where I actually think Trump has a pretty good story to tell, and an opportunity to lay out why his agenda would be better for the future.

But you got to let it unspool. I actually think muting the microphones might work to Trump's benefit a little bit tonight, because it lets Biden talk a little, and then Trump can respond on policy.

I think he needs to mention his foreign policy successes. He's had some really good success in the Middle East lately. It hasn't come up yet. So that's a good opportunity. And then, finally, it's just -- it's time to get out the vote.

There's not a ton of persuasion going on. So reminding people who are leaning your way, but are low political engagers, maybe they didn't vote in 2016, don't miss your chance to vote for me.

TAPPER: Bakari, the right wing is going crazy with all sorts of allegations about Biden and his family, too disgusting to even repeat here.

I mean, some of the ones I have seen from the president's son and the president -- some of the president's supporters are just wildly unhinged.

If Trump goes there tonight, what should Biden do?

SELLERS: I mean, that's a tough one. If it's me or you, Jake, somebody goes after our kids, you want to go back at them just as hard as they're going after your children.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: And that's Biden's record. I mean, he gets passionate about defending his kids.

SELLERS: Yes.

I mean, I have three children. If somebody attacks my kids, you just come out of your shell, out of your normal demeanor, and you want to fight back and attack.

I don't see Joe Biden doing that, though. I see Joe Biden trying -- the country is sick and tired of that nastiness. They're sick and tired of that mud. They're sick and tired of the childish behavior of the president today.

And so he's going to put forth that contrast. That restraint is going to be extremely difficult. And you know what I would say? I would say, it's Donald Trump Jr. and Eric Trump that are robbing the American public blind. Your daughter's on the White House payroll. Bill Barr's family works for the federal government.

I mean, you guys have been pillaging and plundering government for your own benefit. That would be my response.

[16:10:03]

But I think that Joe Biden is going to show us what a leader looks like. And he's going to be more dignified and focus on the needs of the American public. I would walk across the stage. Joe Biden won't do that.

TAPPER: Scott, one of the reasons why President Trump is, at least according to polls, in a rough shape right now in his reelection is because of his handling of the coronavirus pandemic.

Chris Christie wrote an op-ed today in "The Wall Street Journal," telling people to wear masks. A lot of Trump's advisers were hoping that Trump would assume such a leadership role after he contracted the virus.

He obviously did not. He's been out there undermining the wearing of masks.

What do you want to hear from him on the coronavirus pandemic tonight?

JENNINGS: Well, same thing I have always wanted, which is for him to say that we're -- it's all of our responsibility to take care of each other. That's number one.

Number two, wear a mask. Number three, socially distance. Number four, the rules apply equally to all of us. Number five, there's no special immunity based on your politics or your causes. And, number six, if we all do these things, I'm handling the vaccine. We got Warp Speed going on. And we're going to get to a vaccine as soon as possible.

And those things are going to converge as soon as possible. But we're all in this together. I know because I got it.

That right there would solve a lot of issues. He hasn't really done that yet. I actually thought Mike Pence in the vice presidential debate, too, did something very smart, Jake, thanked the American people for all of the sacrifices that the American people have done during this coronavirus pandemic.

If Trump would do that tonight too, it would also be very helpful.

TAPPER: Bakari, we assume that Biden is going to have to ask -- answer questions about the Democrats' push -- it's not official policy yet, but there is a push by Democrats to expand the number of justices on the Supreme Court.

Biden said, if elected, he told "60 Minutes" he'd set up a bipartisan commission to recommend all sorts of changes, including looking at that issue.

Does that really answer the question, though?

(LAUGHTER)

SELLERS: I mean, it answers the question well enough to get to Election Day.

This is going to be an issue that he's going to deal with in his first 100 days or 180 days, as he set forth. I'm someone who will tell you that, as a Democrat, I want to increase the number of federal court judges we have. We haven't increased or expanded the federal events since Jimmy Carter was president.

I think that's necessary. I'm somebody who's in favor of adding justices. I don't think Joe Biden wants to go there. And so he's placating his base by doing this. And I think that it's a -- it's a well-reasoned answer. It's an answer that flies in the face of people trying to call Joe Biden some socialist or flaming liberal. It's a very moderate position to take.

We will just have to see what comes from this reform commission. I think it's a good enough answer to get to November 4, but we have a serious problem with our federal bench. And I look forward to us delving into that deeper.

TAPPER: Blue-ribbon panels are what I tell my kids when they say they want a new toy that's too expensive. I just say, I'm going to set up a blue-ribbon panel to discuss.

Your mother and I are going to...

(CROSSTALK)

SELLERS: I'm going to use that. I'm going to use that for the twins, then.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: Yes, your mother and I are going to set up a bipartisan blue- ribbon panel in discussing whether or not we're going to get you that new toy.

Bakari Sellers, Scott Jennings, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

A new study finds 130,000 coronavirus deaths could have been avoided and puts the blame right on the White House. Let's just -- we will discuss that too.

And new efforts to interfere in our election from Russia and Iran, but what's the truth about which candidate was the target and how?

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:17:59]

TAPPER: Now to our health lead.

A new report finds that, if the current administration would have instituted widespread COVID testing and advocated policies such as a mask mandate, between 130,000, and 210,000 lives could have been saved.

And, still, this second wave is getting worse in the country, nearly 63,000 new cases just yesterday, with 31 states going in the wrong direction. Only one state, Hawaii, is reporting any positive trends. Deaths are climbing as well.

More than 1,100 Americans died yesterday, the most in a single day since September 15.

Joining us now to discuss, CNN chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

And, Sanjay, we are getting some breaking news right now.

The antiviral remdesivir just got approval from the FDA for the treatment of patients hospitalized with coronavirus. Explain how significant this is. And correct me if I'm wrong. I thought that there was a different study, maybe from the World Health Organization, saying that it was not effective.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Right. Yes.

So this is going to be a little confusing for people. So let me try and clarify. I think what's happening here, first of all, it is significant news, in that this is the first and only drug that's now been approved for the treatment of this disease, COVID-19,SARS-CoV-2.

Remember, this -- remdesivir had been authorized before, but now this is an FDA approval. I think the confusion a little bit is that you're absolutely right. The World Health Organization, as part of its trial known as a solidarity trial, they released some results just last week basically saying they could not find evidence that this medication reduced mortality, that it actually decreased the overall mortality rates or increased survival.

There was a previous study that basically showed, for people who were hospitalized with this disease, that remdesivir could shorten the course of their illness from about 15 days to 10 days, so two different things.

Could this be a medication that could still have some effect in terms of reducing severity of illness, duration of illness, while not necessarily reducing mortality? That seems to be where this medication sort of fits in.

[16:20:07]

TAPPER: OK.

GUPTA: It's, again, big, because it's the only approved drug.

But it's not sort of the home run, I think, that a lot of people wanted in terms of actually increasing survival, Jake.

TAPPER: OK, that makes sense. Very nuanced, though.

Sanjay, I want to ask you about this report from Columbia University that estimates that at least 130,000 deaths, and possibly as many as 210,000 deaths, could have been avoided with earlier policy interventions from the Trump administration and far more robust federal coordination.

I mean, they're basically saying we would only have about 10,000 or so deaths right now if the Trump administration had done its job better.

GUPTA: Yes, I mean, Jake, this -- we have been following this Columbia modeling for some time.

And the numbers are really quite striking to look at. Let me show you a few examples, because what they did is, they looked at this at a country-by-country sort of basis and basically said, look, if we had adopted this country's policies, where would we be?

So, South Korea, for example, 2,799, Jake, that's not the number of lives saved, they say, with South Korean policies. That's the number of people they think would have died total here in the United States if the same policies had been implemented in this country as were implemented in South Korea. I mean, think about that.

Again, South Korea is a good example because their first patient was diagnosed, confirmed on the same day a patient was diagnosed, confirmed in this country. They didn't really ever go into lockdown, remember Jake. Their philosophy really was all about very robust testing.

You may remember Ivan Watson doing these pieces showing these testing kiosks all over Seoul, people able to get that testing, isolate quickly, contact trace, all that stuff.

I mean, Jake, I mean, this Columbia port really shows now, eight months into this, how much of an impact that would have had. And you see that in several countries, Australia, Japan, in terms of trying to really apply those policies here.

And maybe, Jake, I think the point is that they can still be applied here. They could still make a difference going forward, even if we have lost all this time so far.

TAPPER: And what's so upsetting about this study, other than what it suggests, is that, just yesterday, President Trump was asked, if he had a mulligan, if you could do it over, what would he do differently about coronavirus? And he said -- quote -- "Not much."

Well, here's a study from Columbia University saying, if you had done much different, you would have saved hundreds of thousands of American lives.

GUPTA: Yes, I mean, it is very upsetting, Jake.

And I don't know. I mean, you and I have been talking about this stuff for so many months now. I try to keep my head looking forward, as opposed to in the rearview mirror, because it's just too upsetting to look backwards. And, sometimes, I wonder if we have just been shouting into the abyss.

But, Jake, I mean, there's examples around the world of just how different this could have gone. Those examples, those lessons can still be applied.

There's also examples right here in the United States. Arizona, I have been looking at some of this data from several states, trying to understand the policies they put in place, because they were forced to many times, how much of a difference it would make.

If you look at Arizona, they were sort of in stay-at-home mode until the end of May, beginning of June. As soon as they came out of stay- at-home mode, the numbers went up. That wasn't surprising, June 1 to June 15.

But I think what was surprising and worth remembering for people, as we go into the colder weather, that they were able to significantly, by 75 percent, bring down the new case numbers by masking, by physical distancing, and by basically avoiding closely clustered indoor settings.

And that shouldn't surprise anybody at this point. But I think the idea that it can make such a huge impact, even now, I think, is really worth remembering. Everyone's focused on the vaccine, understandably, but these public health measures can still make a huge difference.

TAPPER: Oh, I mean, the soonest we're going to get the vaccine -- and I don't buy it -- is April. I mean, we still have months and months to go before then.

Chris Christie has a new op-ed out in which he basically apologizes for not wearing a mask. He says in the op-ed in "The Journal": "Those who deny the scientific realities of the pandemic undermine conditions that allow for rapid and complete reopening. They encourage behavior that invites personal tragedy and social regulation. People need encouragement to do the right thing, not excuses not to."

Well, it's great to hear that from Governor Christie. And we're all, of course, so thankful that he is feeling better. He doesn't mention the fact that President Trump is the number one underminer of the imperative to wear masks whenever people go out.

Do you think the op-ed would be stronger if he acknowledged that?

GUPTA: Yes, a hundred percent.

I mean, he's one of the few people that could probably really make that point personally, because he likely became infected in that setting at the White House, either during debate prep or at one of these events.

[16:25:08]

I mean, that's where this happened. The White House itself was a hotbed of viral activity. Jake, I don't know what gets through to people at this point. We're still around 65 percent of people who say they wear masks regularly.

Every day, I think of new ways to sort of present this in a way that makes sense. And if you look at states in terms of states that put in mask mandates, there were 15 of them, and Washington, D.C., and see what happened, what the trajectory was of the new case counts, you see that it decreased a couple of percent initially, and then started to build and build over time.

Keep in mind, a small percentage decrease in the face of what we have, almost exponential increase, is significant. You're able to really break the cycle of that transmission. Sometimes, people understand that.

How about this example of those two hairstylists in Missouri, I believe?

TAPPER: Right.

GUPTA: They had COVID. They wore masks. TAPPER: But they wore masks.

GUPTA: They should have stayed home.

TAPPER: Right.

GUPTA: They should have stayed home. Admit that. But they wore masks. They took care of 139 clients. None of them got sick. None of them got sick.

Why? Because of the masks. I mean, there was no other therapeutic or any other magical thing that was happening. Can you imagine? Does this get across to people that, if you wear masks in an indoor setting, you can dramatically reduce the spread of this virus?

TAPPER: Yes.

GUPTA: And that's a good example of that.

TAPPER: The president, of course, is out there having rallies and not requiring his attendees to wear masks. He is inviting super-spreader events all over the country.

If you wrote this as a screenplay, you would get laughed out of Hollywood. Nobody would buy it. Nobody would believe that the White House became a super-spreader den of the virus, but it happened.

Sanjay Gupta, thank you so much. Always good to see you, my friend.

Hopes for a pre-election stimulus deal are fading fast, and both parties might be to blame. I will talk to Senator Kirsten Gillibrand about what should happen now.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:30:00]