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The Lead with Jake Tapper
Michael Cohen's Former Banker Testifies In Trump Trial; Testimony In The Trump Hush Money Trial Wraps For The Week. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired April 26, 2024 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[16:00:00]
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Paula Reid, thank you so much.
I'm Boris Sanchez in New York.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: And I'm Wolf Blitzer here in Washington.
Much more of our specialty what coverage of the trial is coming up and I'll be back in two hours in "THE SITUATION ROOM" 6:00 p.m. Eastern.
But THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER starts right now.
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ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.
Right now, right this minute, a new witness in Donald Trump's hush money cover up trial. The prosecution just called its third witness. His name is Gary Farro. Gary Farro is a banker who worked with Michael Cohen at the time that the payments were made to former Playboy model, Karen McDougal, and porn actress and director Stormy Daniels, both of whom alleged romantic entanglements of sorts with Mr. Donald Trump.
This comes after Rhona Graff was called as the second witness in the trial. Rhona Graff, she's on the screen right there. She's a longtime Trump assistance. She worked for Trump since he hired her in 1987 after she called calls to Trump Organization. Rhona Graff testified two contacts she maintained at the Trump Organization were for Karen McDougal and Stormy Daniels. Rhona Graff was on the stand for less than half an hour.
Earlier today, Trump's attorneys cross-examined David Pecker, the former tabloid magnate and longtime friend of Donald Trump.
Let's dive into all of this with my panel.
So, Jamie, put Rhona Graff into context for us. A lot of people who know Trump world were excited about this testimony. She was a vice president for the firm. She was a very important player in his world. She testified today and very -- testified very briefly. JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: Right. So, loyal trustee,
gatekeeper for those of us going back, who wanted to interview Donald Trump. That's who you call. She was -- she knew everything was going on --
TAPPER: Back when he was like a real estate tycoon and that's it.
GANGEL: Back in the Ice Age.
That was hey, you know, you want but she also her desk was right outside his office. She was within earshot and she -- she is the inner circle of the inner circle. She placed the calls. She made the schedules, she knew is traveling arrangements. "Politico" had a headline on a profile of her and it was, need to reach Trump, call Rhona.
So she knew everything that was going on.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF CORRESPONDETN: I mean, she's someone who, you know, was brought in to worked for Norma, actually, his other executive assistant --
GANGEL: Right.
COLLINS: -- who, you know, Trump has this saying with his executive assistant. His dad was the same way and they're deeply attached and someone who really knows everything does everything for him. Rhona was that person.
And even when he went into the White House, Jake, she was someone who still had that direct line. His old context would still reach out to Rhona to get her to get a message to him. She even trained the former White -- the White House lets employee who went on to sit outside the Oval Office and then occupied that role, Madeleine Westerhout.
And, obviously, she was only on the stand briefly, but she was there to get some records into the record and basically to say Stormy Daniels was seen outside of Trump's office on the 26th floor of Trump Tower, and that Karen McDougal and Stormy Daniels' contact numbers were in his contacts.
TAPPER: Interesting. So let's talk about the guy on the witness stand right now. His name is Gary Farro. He's a former senior managing director at First Republic Bank. He was just asked about the issue of what does KYC stand for? He says it means know your customer, be sure they are who they say they are. And emails right now being shown to the jury.
What is the significance of Gary Farro? Why is he testifying?
ANKUSH KHARDORI, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: I mean, obviously its still underway, but appears he's essentially Cohen's banker. If I sort of understand what --
TAPPER: So what would that mean, that he's going to testify as to the payments? KHARDORI: Yeah, the payments the shell company, the mechanics of the
payments, right?
Obviously, we've all been focused on, largely many of us, have been focused its done sort of the more salacious elements of this --
TAPPER: They are more interesting.
KHARDORI: They are more interesting, but the crime actually has to do with all of this somewhat banal record keeping stuff so this is a case where I think were going to actually see quite a few somewhat dull witnesses producing things like documents, ledgers invoices, things like that, just have to come into evidence to complete this case.
TAPPER: Which is -- which is not meant as a bust on Gary Farro. He might be a very fascinating guy, but his testimony itself is just about record keeping.
JIM TRUSTY, FORMER TRUMP ATTORNEY: He's got an interesting name again, too.
TAPPER: Yeah, fair. I got the greatest names of witnesses, Farro, Pecker, Graff.
(CROSSTALK)
TRUSTY: I'm walking away from.
TAPPER: Yes.
TRUSTY: But, look, one thing to just point out, there's a couple of tactics at play here. One is if you're a prosecutor, I used to do some multi-week cases where you'd have good witnesses and bad witnesses mixed in. You liked the idea of leaving them with something solid, unchallenged, good at the end of the week.
So it may be that these are basically glorified records, custodian so basically introducing some paperwork for the jury to look at 4:30 before they go home and go oh, there were checks. Or there were meetings where there were contexts. It's also smart for the defense at this point to keep it dull, to basically not spend any time cross- examining people, where you have no real reason to gain anything because they're not establishing criminality, or they're not establishing controversial points.
So let them go continue to focus on Cohen and wait for that moment.
TAPPER: Well, let me just say, so the email that was just shown that now they're discussing its from Gary Farro's assistant, informing him that Michael Cohen, his clients at the time, called on October 11, 2016.
KHARDORI: Yeah. I'm sure well find out why that matters.
TAPPER: I'm sure there are no cameras in the courtrooms. KHARDORI: No, no, I can do interesting, but I just want to like yes,
their records, folks, but I don't think we should lose sight of the significance of what Graff actually put in to evidence.
TAPPER: We'll come back to Graff in a second. But Gary Farro received another female two days later. Please return Michael Cohen's call when you are available today regarding an important matters.
COLLINS: This is why this matters is because he is trying to arrange the payment to Stormy Daniels, which is what all of this is about.
TAPPER: From Michael Cohen.
COLLINS: From Michael Cohen, maybe it's not as salacious, but this is actually what the trial.
TAPPER: And the crime itself.
TRUSTY: It is.
COLLINS: Michael Cohen was contacting this bank because he they'd been having this discussion about AMI and David Pecker and "National Enquirer".
TAPPER: AMI is the firm that owned "National Enquirer", yes.
COLLINS: They've been having the discussion on them making the payment to Stormy Daniels and essentially David Pecker didn't want anything to do it. He did not want to be in cahoots with a porn star making this payment to her. And it came to this point where Michael Cohen was trying to reach Trump. He was under pressure to do this and finally said, I'm just going to do it myself and drew down a home equity line. That's why this exchange happening right now.
TAPPER: And Farro received another email two days later, please return Michael Cohen's call when you are available today regarding an important merit, a matter. Farro calls Cohen who told him he wanted to open a new LLC account.
Cohen said the account was for capital real estate, Farro says.
Let me bring in some other attorneys we have with us today to discuss, criminal defense attorney Bill Brennan, trial attorney Misty Marris, and Manhattan criminal defense attorney Stacy Schneider. Stacy was also a former contestant on "The Apprentice" and knows the judge, as well as District Attorney Alvin Bragg, as well as Mr. Trump, obviously, from her time on "The Apprentice".
Let's start with you. Bill Brennan because right now, this testimony from Gary Farro who worked for Michael Cohen is looks like its leading up towards evidence of this LLC corporation, which some might call a shell corporation to hide the payment that he made to Stormy Daniels on Trump's behest. That is the allegation anyway, Mr. Brennan.
BILL BRENNAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Hello, Jake. And I agree with the former prosecutors said, you know, you may want to end the week on especially I think they're not in session Monday, if I'm correct about that.
TAPPER: That's right.
BRENNAN: Three-day weekend. And on innocuous testimony, especially following up the 34 year-old adminis -- a 34-year employee, the administrative assistant, who apparently spoken glowing terms of the defendant, said he was respectful, he was wonderful to work for. I don't think you want the jury, if you're the prosecutor von prosecuting his case, left with that to mull over for three days.
Plus, you need this type of kind of boilerplate innocuous testimony to corroborate the later allegations of Cohen and the paper will go in. So, it's not going to always be as salacious is Pecker was and you have to fill in with these fill in the blanks witnesses.
TAPPER: Stacy, tell us about Rhona Graff. Do you know her at all? Have you encountered her at all? What is your experience with her?
She obviously it was Trump's longtime assistant who testified for about half an hour earlier today.
STACY SCHNEIDER, CRIMINAL DEFENSE TRIAL ATTORNEY: Yes. Rhona is the loveliest woman on the planet, when I was on the show. If the -- we wanted to stay in touch with Donald Trump after the show, the person we were told to contact is Rhona. She was indeed his gatekeeper. She had an amazing relationship with Donald Trump.
I always wondered how she worked for such a difficult boss. She was always pleasant.
And I think this was very helpful after David Pecker's testimony, which was really damaging for Donald Trump about all this alleged nefarious conduct to have somebody soften him, like Rhona who still, you know, whose cared about him all these years. I understood I wasn't in the courtroom.
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But after she got up and left to leave the testimony, I think Donald Trump stood up and touched her hand, and that's a big difference from what his behavior during jury selection when the jurors were entering the room, he didn't even stand up for them, but he stood up for Rhona today.
TAPPER: So, Misty Marris, let me tell you some of the stuff going on in the courtroom right now, in an October 13, 2016 email, and again, the significance of October 2016, A, right before the presidential election, B, this is during the hotbed of activity about making sure that Stormy Daniels story or allegation does not get out there.
October 13th email Michael Cohen need account, Open for Michael Cohen. This is from Gary Farro, need account open from Michael Cohen. Immediately he wants no address on the checks. He also notes that an LLC not having an address is not unusual. Farro says that Cohen call to set up an count for Resolution Consultants LLC. I loved the fact that in anytime there's any story about allegations
of misdeeds, the LLC always has the most boring, innocuous name and that's one for the history books, Resolution Consultants, LLC. I'm already falling asleep, but obviously, it was anything but boring, what was going on Misty, right.
MISTY MARRIS, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Right, certainly seeking a resolution, right? So there's a couple of really important points here. Number one, Jake, you nailed it. The timing.
Remember this is all part of the prosecutions narrative that this is right around the time the "Access Hollywood" tape has become public, Trump team is in panic mode to get rid of his Stormy Daniels story. So that's all going to speak to some of the elements that tie this payment directly to the election.
Now the other pieces, every single document and communication and transaction relating to this payment is obviously a key and critical part of the case. And to have these shell companies, this is all speaking to that idea of a conspiracy trying to mask these payments as something that there not. And remember, that is a fundamental part of the prosecutions case as far as this all being unlawful conduct because the payments themselves aren't unlawful. It's that were they properly reported, were they related to the campaign, where they related to the election?
So all of this testimony, while foundational authenticating documents, really, really important to the merits of the prosecution's case.
TAPPER: Let me call on my favorite my fellow rather Philadelphian, Mr. Brennan, and permit me a moment of geographical snobbery because Delaware is being raised. The jury is seeing pages of documents that show Resolution Consultants, LLC was created by Michael Cohen, has a Delaware entity. We'd like to make fine of New Jersey and Philadelphia, and, Bill, maybe you can explain why Delaware is always where the shady corporations are headquartered.
BRENNAN: I can, Jake, because Delaware many years ago crafted laws of incorporation, that were very favorable for those who wish to incorporate. So that's why we see, I think per capita, it's the out of the 50 states. It's the number one.
But I'd just like to respond to a couple of the comments that I heard. It's probably just the DNA that I have being a defense lawyer. You know, you have to remember that the defense here is likely to be and I think we've seen a preview. Is that payments if they were made and if they were made to these individuals, Ms. Clifford and Ms. McDougal, they were paid to avoid a very embarrassing and shameful scenario that the defendant will encounter with his wife and family and that that sells to people.
And I think that when you look at -- I wasn't in court today. I just know what I've read and what I've heard from you guys, but when you think about this prosecution, they have to get it to the other crime, to make the felony stick, they have to show that if these things were done, they weren't to avoid personal problems. We were to affect either campaign finance laws or the election.
And I thought I read or heard that Mr. Pecker stumbled into some type of meeting in the White House where Director Comey and Secretary Pompeo were there and the prosecution seems to be saying, well, you're in the meeting with two big officials. I mean, that doesn't make him a coconspirator that makes some Forrest Gump. I mean, the guy stumbling around and walks into a meeting, that's proof of nothing.
So I don't know that Pecker's testimony was that damaging so far. I suspect they'll fill in the gaps or attempt to fill them in with Cohen. And I suspect that we'll see a much more aggressive line of cross-examination with him.
TAPPER: So jurors are being shown emails right now between Cohen and Farro, setting up a bank account for Resolution Consultants, LLC. Everyone stick with me. We're close to wrapping for the week in the Manhattan hush money cover up trial. Keep it here, as we watch prosecutors try to finish out as the court adjourns for the weekend, three-day weekend for the jury.
We're back in a moment.
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TAPPER: Welcome back to CNN's coverage of the Manhattan hush money cover up trial.
We are still here in studio and the jury is still listening to testimony. Cohen, according to the paperwork being presented to the jury about the LLC, the corporation being set up by Michael Cohen when in order to make payments to Stormy Daniels allegedly at Donald Trump's behalf. From the paperwork, Cohen described the entity, this is Resolution, what's it called, Resolution Consulting, LLC or something like that.
KHARDORI: Consultants, yeah.
TAPPER: Consultants, LLC, describe the entity's function to be management consultant included HR and marketing. Cohen was the only authorized signatory for the account.
Now, you were saying that this may sound very boring and bookkeeper-y, but actually it's not. It's actually important.
KHARDORI: Yeah, well, look, let's -- let's talk about why the prosecutors would be introducing all this. Obviously, it tells part of the story, but part of what their need to prove is that there was some knowledge or awareness that there would be legal implications concerning the way that this payment was booked.
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One of the pieces of circumstantial evidence that you can produce as a prosecutor to help shore up testimony like this is evidenced that you are doing something very sneaky. You're concealing things like management consulting. There was no management consulting going on, right.
TAPPER: Well, he was being consulted to manage Stormy Daniels.
KHARDORI: Correct, right? So all of this has an air of impropriety about it, right? It has an air of impropriety about it.
TAPPER: And as you said, Delaware, just joking.
KHARDORI: I just want to go back to Rhona Graff, too. It was short, I guess you said she liked him or whatever. But --
TAPPER: This is the gatekeeper who worked for Donald Trump from 1987 for decades.
KHARDORI: Yeah.
TAPPER: Cohen, by the way, checked know on the forum when asked if the entity was associated with political fundraising or political action committee, unquote. Is that significant?
KHARDORI: Yeah. I mean, it's a lie.
TAPPER: Because it was associated with --
KHARDORI: It's definitely associated with political fundraising and some sort of PAC. There was an ongoing campaign, whether I'm sure there's some lawyerly way of trying to defend that language, but the jury's not going to see it that way.
TAPPER: But make your point about Graff.
KHARDORI: Yeah, Rhona Graff. So what does she put into evidence? She put in evidence that in the Trump Organization records, Rhona Graff's -- excuse me, Stormy Daniels' contact information was in there. Okay.
The prosecutors are slowly trying to establish that this affair actually happened --
TAPPER: With Stormy Daniels.
KHARDORI: Correct, and that --
TAPPER: Whatever it was, the event. It wasn't really in a affair, yes.
KHARDORI: Whatever, the interaction.
TAPPER: Yes.
KHARDORI: The jury won't have to take Stormy Daniels' word for it, right? Because Trump is tried to say, oh, she's liar, she's making it all up to sell books and money.
But why would he have her contact info in her in his -- TAPPER: By the way, this account, Farro says the bank, did all of our
work worked to establish Cohen's account but, quote, a deposit was never made in the accounts of the account, never went live. So it confirmed the account was not open. So why does that matter? So this is a debt account.
KHARDORI: It just looks like a lot of machinations that are designed to just conceal this from scrutiny.
TAPPER: Okay.
COLLINS: We know what Michael Cohen was doing. He's actually said this publicly that he wanted to not only hide this from scrutiny, but also hide it from his wife. He later said that --
TAPPER: From his own life or --
COLLINS: From Michael Cohen's wife. So this is -- it wasn't just easy for Michael Cohen to go and get $130,000. He's talked about the immense pressure he was under and he only went to do it because essentially faced no other option to get this money.
TAPPER: Right.
COLLINS: They felt like they needed to pay Stormy Daniels and do so quickly because she had her attorney. But what they were dragging it out pass the election. And then once they hit the election, they'd never get the money --
TAPPER: Because Michael Cohen didn't have millions of dollars in the bank.
COLLINS: He had to draw down a home equity loan.
TAPPER: Home equity loan.
Let me come back on one second. Let me go out to Paula Reid who's outside the courthouse right now with all the latest -- Paula.
PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. Jake, I was just thinking about the gag order and creative ways that Trump has found a way around it because we do expect him to speak after court really, possibly in a matter of minutes. We always currently subject to an expanded gag order where he can't -- as most defendants cannot attack witnesses, attack members of the jury. Now it's been expanded to include prosecutors and family members of the judge.
Now, I'm also monitoring side stream while I'm talking to you. They're still talking about setting up that LLC. I agree with you, Jake, not the most exciting thing we've seen throughout the trial. But Trump has tried to find ways of working around this gag order because he according to prosecutors, just blatantly violated it multiple times, particularly going after Cohen.
He's trying some workarounds like quoting other people, including a Fox News host to raise questions about the jury. He's also come out. We've seen him a few times at the end of court with a stack of articles and quoted attacks on people he's not supposed to directly attack.
Now what was clear from the hearing earlier this week on a gag order that that is probably going to be a violation, something we saw this morning for the first time was him pointing to his allies on the Hill, GOP allies who are now making many these arguments for him.
Now, again, I'm looking down at the side stream. Mr. Farro is just talking about the urgency that Michael Cohen had while he was setting up this LLC. But its going to be really interesting to watch as Trump comes out of court, if he continues this tactic because he cannot directly the attack people like for example, Matthew Colangelo, one of the prosecutors here, who formerly worked the Biden Justice Department, it appears that now instead he's having folks on the Hill do that, and then he and his allies will point to their reports, or their remarks. I'm also curious to see prosecutors reaction to this. So that's definitely want him to watch for in a couple of minutes when Trump addresses the press.
TAPPER: Okay. Every time Michael Cohen spoke to me, he gave a sense of urgency and this was one of those times testimony from Greg Farro, who was the banker for Michael Cohen, and we are hearing information about the accounts that Michael Cohen set up to allegedly pay Stormy Daniels, allegedly at the behest of Donald Trump. Farro confirms that the new LLC that Cohen wanted to open was Essential Consultants, LLC, as opposed to Resolution Consultants, LLC.
[16:25:02]
Jim?
TRUSTY: Well, I shouldn't end on personal motivation only LLC, that would have been helpful.
But look, I think there's a couple of things that are interesting here. If I'm the prosecution, I've got pharaoh on the stand. I'm going to do what I can to make him go to the buzzer today. Do not leave time for cross-examination because if there is cross, they're going to leave this jury with a weekend. It'll be a friendly cross, frankly, it's not going to be some big hostile Perry Mason moment.
But you're going to get him to concede Cohen being dishonest, Cohen being in charge, Cohen committing misdeeds. It's the first substantive moment of being able to say this guy Cohen is the weasel at the heart of everything.
And if you leave the jury with that for three days, it's a great moment for the defense, so it'll be interesting to see if they start asking questions like, how do you like the weather in New York? Just to give the 5:00.
TAPPER: What's your take on this?
KHARDORI: I think that's inaccurate. I will just say that the phrase that I was searching for a little bit earlier concerning all these machinations and the secrecy and the misrepresentations that reflects consciousness of wrongdoing, right?
TAPPER: But Michael Cohen knew what he was doing was wrong.
KHARDORI: Because you don't go through all of these efforts unless you're doing something wrong, you feel bad about. And I agree that the defense is going to be that this was all Michael Cohen's do.
COLLINS: But can I say I see it completely differently than you do, which is that its Michael Cohen out for his own good, doing what he needs to do. What I'm seeing these dates and that Michael Cohen is urgently trying to get in touch with this banker, they are trying to paint a picture of Michael Cohen is stressed. Michael Cohen is under pressure. He has someone who he has in mind as he is trying to open this count and desperately get money, that he doesn't really have access to and that we already know he's hiding from his wife at the time and concealing it.
I think they're trying to paint a different picture that he is actually under pressure and he has stressed because they know --
TAPPER: From Mr. Trump because it's October 2061, right before the elections. And they don't want Stormy story coming out.
COLLINS: It's October 26 when he calls back. I mean, we are truly a week away from the election and they're saying -- they're basically trying to frame Michael Cohen is someone who is stressed.
TRUSTY: I'm not disagreeing with the image are trying to create. I'm saying, how's that going to play out? Do you think Michael Cohen is going to come off as poor, overworked Bob Cratchit from the Christmas Carol with scrooge leaning on him or is he going to come off as a first-class perjurer and liar and disbarred lawyer?
GANGEL: He is going to come across also as someone who used to be very loyal to Donald Trump, and did his bidding. And that's what this feels like. We're getting close closer and closer to the election. Resolution went to Essential.
TAPPER: Essential Consultants, LLC.
GANGEL: He's not setting this up because he has a problem with Stormy Daniels. He said in this up because Donald Trump has a problem with Stormy Daniels and they don't want it to come out before the election. In the wake of "Access Hollywood".
TAPPER: Right. Donald Trump is fighting for his political life after the "Access Hollywood" tape dropped a few weeks before, just to put everybody in the context of October 2016. Along come Stormy Daniels, who is alleging she had a sexual encounter with Donald Trump. He does not want that information to be known by voters in October 2016 with the election coming up, that's the story that prosecutors are presenting.
And Michael Cohen, according to the prosecution, set up these accounts to pay Stormy Daniels to hide the payments, not only from Johnny Law, but from his wife, according to Michael Cohen, under business narrative for this second LLC, that Michael Cohen was setting up this one Essential Consulting LLC.
It states: Cohen was opening the account for a real estate consulting company to collect fees for consulting regarding real estate. The prosecutor Mangold, she says she's at a natural stopping point for the day. It's for 4:27 p.m. They said 4:30 would be the time that they would end for the weekend. Judge Merchan says, we will call it a week and as giving the jury instruction.
This is exactly, Jim Trusty, what you said, you would do if you were the prosecutor, establish some of these little facts, don't let the defense have a moment ago at them.
TRUSTY: Yeah. I mean, that's -- and look, there's nothing sinister about that. There's an element of theater to trial, and I think they're been --
TAPPER: North Carolina four point -- four corner defense, right.
TRUSTY: It's not four corner.
TAPPER: Four corner offense.
TRUSTY: It's not 4-2 at half time. It's not that bad.
But, look, this is essential, my point is not that it's not important evidence. They're looking for stuff that's not controversial. They want -- don't want to leave with their chin and have these moments of really getting sidetracked long before Cohen gets on the stand.
And if you're the defense, the fight is not whether or not there was a relationship with Stormy. It's not whether or not there was an NDA. I mean, that's really not it. Ultimately, what you're focusing on is Cohen and you're looking at the ledger and you're saying is the difference between a crime and a not crime that you didn't say for NDA after legal services. That's a really thin divide between criminal and non-criminal. And that's where jury instructions are going to be huge way down the road, but that's also where closing arguments are going to go, I think.
TAPPER: So, Donald Trump in inside the courtroom, just hit his attorney, Todd Blanche on the arm and leaned over to tell him something. Again, color that were not seeing because there are no cameras in the courtroom in New York, which many people, many legal experts have disagreed with.
[16:30:04]
We are also waiting for Donald Trump to come outside of the courtroom and speak to the cameras. You see the place there that he will deliver the message?
KHARDORI: Yeah. I was just wanted to say that I think whether or not the relationship is Stormy Daniels occurred -- I mean, we all take it for granted, but in a trial setting, actually, it is a material fact, because Trump's position, including either think the position is lawyer took an opening in the opening statement, is that this interaction didn't occur.
TAPPER: Well, they say it never happened.
KHARDORI: Correct. And so every lie that the prosecution can establish that the defense has -- is putting forth as part of their defense helps them.
TAPPER: Interesting.
But we know that there are pictures of Donald Trump with Stormy Daniels. He doesn't deny knowing her.
KHARDORI: Right.
TAPPER: And she says that she tried to get a job on "Celebrity Apprentice". The issue is whether or not they had any sort of sexual interlude. So I'm not sure.
JIM TRUSTY, FORMER TRUMP LAWYER: And she's inconsistent on that, too. They've got her on record saying it didn't happen.
TAPPER: Because she signed that NDA to begin with.
Judge Merchan reminding jurors that the court is dark on Monday and is going to return Tuesday at 9:30 a.m. Eastern. Jurors are exiting the courtroom, which means that we expect the defendant himself will exit the courtroom as well.
But what are they established so far factually, if anything, that establishes that Stormy Daniels and Donald Trump did have a sexual encounter? I don't think anything as of -- as of now, nothing.
JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: Zero, zero. There are a lot of people in Donald Trump's contexts. You're probably in his contacts that wrote, I'm probably in them. I mean, there were a lot of people who are in the phone book.
That said, what's the motivation for paying her all of this money? One of the interesting things about David Pecker's testimony about --
TAPPER: Here comes the defendant himself watching, walking up to the to the cameras.
It is Friday afternoon, 4:30 p.m. Let's listen in.
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT & 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: So, thank you very much.
This is eight days that we've all sitting in this courthouse. This is all a Biden indictment. It's an order to try and win an election. Political opponent had nothing like this has ever happened, eight days.
As you know, the economy is falling apart down now. Now you're seeing it, very little growth. It's going to get worse. Oil prices are going up. You have the college campuses all over closed down, our country is
going to hell. And we sit here day after day after day, which is their plan because they think they might be able to eke out an election.
But I got it, as the poll numbers are very good for us. I just want to say that I've invited Biden to debate. He can do it anytime he wants, including tonight. I'm ready. Here we are, find it up to the courthouse that he has tied up in, his administration. This is all being done through Washington. It's all -- it's a well-coordinated attack on a political opponent.
But I'm here, I'm ready, willing, and able, and if he wants, I'll do it on Monday night, Tuesday night, or Wednesday night. We'll be in Michigan, a state that he's destroyed because of the auto industry. We're not going to have any jobs left Michigan, no other jobs left in Michigan. They're all going over the China and other places with his ridiculous EV mandate, electric vehicle mandate.
But we're willing to do it, Monday night, Tuesday night, Wednesday night, Thursday night, or Friday night on national television, we're ready. Just tell me where I will do it in the White House. I would be very comfortable actually.
But you tell me where, we're ready, he's obviously not showing up now. We heard nothing. But he said today that, oh, I love to debate, but he won't debate. I don't think of -- maybe he will, maybe he will. I'm not sure he has a choice but that's the story.
So here we are. We're ready, willing, and able, and we don't see him and I don't think hell be here but maybe next week, he'll do it. I doubt it but maybe next week.
So, I just to thank everybody for being here and now you have to suffer through this like everybody else. Nothing is done. This is a case that should have never been brought, every legal scholar, every legal expert, Andy McCarthy, Jonathan, Andy, every single one, Jonathan Turley came out with a scathing report in this trial today, Andy McCarthy scathing report, Mark Levin can't believe this is happening in our country.
This little case here, there's no case whatsoever. It's a disgrace. We have a conflicted judge, and it shouldn't be happening, not in this country.
Thank you very much.
REPORTER: Do you think he'd be finally debate? Where you are going to this so far?
TAPPER: All right. Donald Trump, the 45th president of the United States, and the defendant in this case talking after a full week of court.
[16:35:00]
Let's bring in CNN's Daniel Dale, our fact-checker, who's looking into everything we just heard from the former president, most of which was criticizing the trial and telling the world that he's ready to debate President Biden whenever, wherever it can happen.
Daniel?
DANIEL DALE, CNN REPORTER: Fair enough. He said something that we fact-checked, I think five times in the last couple of weeks, he said this is a Biden indictment. It's a well-coordinated attack coming out of Washington -- completely baseless, zero evidence whatsoever.
This is an indictment approved by a grand jury of New York citizens. There's no basis for any claim that President Biden had a personal role in it. The prosecutor behind it is Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg, who is a locally elected official, does not report to the federal government. Now, former President Trump has repeatedly cited the fact that a former DOJ official went over to work for Bragg.
That's Matthew Colangelo, who'd been talking about, zero evidence that President Biden had any role in that personal employment decision. Colangelos and Bragg were former colleagues in the state attorney general's office.
I think it's also worth noting, Jake, that when former President Trump says, every legal expert thinks this case is a sham and so on, the people he named today, he named Mark Levin, who yes, talks about the law, he's also a right-wing radio host who's a frequent defender of Donald Trump, Andy McCarthy sometimes criticizes Trump, but as also a conservative commentator.
Jonathan Turley, a professor who defended Trump in the impeachment contexts and other things. So yes, there are even liberal professors anti-Trump professors, and so on who have questioned this case. But those names are the regular, the usual suspects defending Donald Trump.
And then I'll note he talked about Michigan being destroyed no more auto jobs. I think some of that was that prediction, but it's worth noting there are more auto manufacturing jobs today, more people employed in Michigan in that industry today than there were when Donald Trump left office.
TAPPER: All right. Daniel Dale with just a combo platter of a fact checks from the feast that Mr. Trump just a served up. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
Let's talk more about the case. Because it is a fairly significant case just to step back for one second now the trial is over for the week. I want I want to talk about some of the takeaways from the cross-examination of David Pecker by Emil Bove, who is it was an interesting, interesting Q&A.
In this back-and-forth with Emil Bove who is a defense attorney for Mr. Trump, Pecker acknowledged that negative press for Trump's foes was generally good for business Pecker said that if the false door man allegations had been true, he would have run the story after the election. Bove elicited from Pecker that catch and kill, the term catch and kill buying a story in order to not run it so that it doesn't run anywhere else to protect Mr. Trump in this case, allegedly. Catch and kill was not discussed at the August 2015 meeting.
The defense elicited from Pecker that he wanted nothing to do with the Stormy Daniels allegations and the defense made sure to spell out for the jurors that the Karen McDougal deal was reviewed by an election law attorney.
Jim, do any of these standout to you as important bits of information for the defense of Donald Trump?
TRUSTY: For the defense, I would say, you know, in hopefully you set this up an opening statement, but you need to just kind of pound home that we're not fighting every single fact that moves in this case. We're not fighting whether or not I wouldn't be fighting the relationships.
It doesn't matter. It's no more than the doorman which was demonstrably false. You still pay money in nuisance suits. To people that probably don't deserve that money. So again, I think that it's not that the prosecution is doing a bad job at all. They're kind of leading in a protective way where they're getting undeniable facts out.
There's a lot of scandal, a lot of salaciousness in your opening is the defense hopefully you pull the teeth on that sound, you said, look, you're going to hear all sorts of stuff that sounds gross, that makes you disrespect any of the players that were involved, but that's not what this trial is about. And then hold to that in your cross- examination by not challenging stuff you don't need to challenge, make everything a friendly cross until you get to Cohen.
TAPPER: Ankush, what do you make of the fact that -- the fact that David Pecker had a election law and election law attorney, look at the Karen McDougal deal and just to remind folks, the Karen McDougal deal, this was a Playboy playmate who alleged having a 10 or 11-month relationship with Donald Trump.
She had a story and what happened was that the tabloid magnate David Pecker in AMI, his company hired her. I gave her $150,000 to write a column for a different magazine in their empire, I think it was health or health and fitness or something like that. She never wrote anything. She was paid $150,000.
But they had -- apparently, David Pecker had an election attorney look at this. This deal was going on I think right before the 2016 election as well.
[16:40:03]
KHARDORI: Uh-huh, yeah. Well, it the implication would be that there was no actual election law violation as a result of these types of deals, right. So he has a lawyer ticket over. Apparently the lawyer blessed it, right? And the deal with Stormy Daniels is strictly shuffle actually very, very similar, right? So that's sort of the implication.
I don't think it actually is that potent of an observation. I don't -- I doubt we're going to hear from that lawyer in the course of this trial, which would be necessary to actually make that useful.
TAPPER: Let's -- let's go to our attorneys outside the room right now. I'll start with Bill Brennan.
What's your -- what's your big takeaway from today if anything or if you want to look at the week in general, if any gloves were laid on Mr. Trump or not?
BILL BRENNAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Jake, I really don't think so. I heard Ankush lay out a scenario and certainly, he could be correct with regard to actions taken in furtherance of a political motive, but any married man in this position is going to be very worried about a jury of one and that's the person he lives with.
And, you know, we had another former president who had been accused of a dalliance with someone not his wife and apparently denied it and then had to walk that back in -- from what I had read at the time, it was a tougher spill to his wife than it was to the country. So I think any married man on the jury, any married person, female on the jury is going to get that.
And I also heard some talk about well, look at this, the Billy Bush tape comes out and the timing, and here's when Cohen's going in I challenge anybody to tell me a favorable time to have that come out if you're married and have children. And I really think that's going to resonate with the jurors.
As far as Cohen and this banker, this also, I think validates the defense of not wanting to be embarrassed or to deal with his wife. Cohen wouldn't even tell his wife about the $130,000 loan. So I really think that there's a strong narrative that if this if it happened that it happened because the defendant was worried about the implications that would have on his family and his marriage and if that is what it's limited to when the prosecution can't tie it up to the other crime, the cases out the window.
TAPPER: So Misty Marris, it is it has been said by David Pecker, who so far this week has been the key witness that he was doing this for Trump and his campaign not necessarily exclusively, but he did mention the campaign any number of times. What's your take on what Bill just said?
MISTY MARRIS, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Well, that's exactly what the defense is going to say. Bill laid it out that number one, these payments on their own are not illegal. So the prosecution will have to point to unlawful conduct.
And the other piece of this is to the extent that we're looking at a campaign finance violations, it's this concept of mixed motive that there's reasons to make these payments that are outside of the election now, the flip side of that is exactly what we heard today. The timing, the timeline is really, really critically important for the prosecutions case. And of course, Peckers testimony that was his perception that this was all about the election that's what he testified.
Well, that is going to be part of how the prosecution tries to show that the intent was directly related to the election and not all of these other reasons why somebody might make a payment like this.
TAPPER: Stacy Schneider, your take?
STACY SCHNEIDER, CRIMINAL DEFENSE TRIAL ATTORNEY: I think David Pecker damaged Donald Trump this week. I think that the Manhattan district attorneys office has a plan and that's to prove a local New York state violation of its election law and they're slowly setting it up with these witnesses to go that route.
I don't think it's going to be a federal violation, although the D.A.'s office has signaled in the beginning of this case in April 4th of 2023, when they announced the indictment that they were looking at Donald Trump for allegedly violating both state and federal election law. But I think that they're really going for the New York state angle here. We'll see with the rest of the witnesses.
TAPPER: All right. Stacy and Misty and Bill, thanks to all of you. Have a wonderful weekend.
If you're just tuning in, the Manhattan hush money cover up, trial wrapped for the week. Donald Trump just spoke, he repeated the other big story of the day, saying that he is ready to debate President Biden whenever wherever.
President Biden said something similar today. We're going to take a short break, and we're back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:49:03]
TAPPER: As we've been following Trump's hush money cover up trial in Manhattan, another major political story line played out, that is a possible presidential debate. President Biden, in an interview on the Howard Stern show on Sirius XM, said he would be happy to debate the presumptive Republican nominee, Donald Trump.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
HOWARD STERN, HOST: I don't know if you're going to debate your opponent.
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I am somewhere, I don't know when. I'm happy to debate him.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
TAPPER: Then, Donald Trump responded to Biden's willingness just minutes ago when he walked out of court.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: But we're willing to do it Monday night, Tuesday night, Wednesday night, Thursday night, or Friday night, on national television. We're ready. Just tell me where. I will do it at the White House. I would be very comfortable actually but --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: I'm back with my panel. Let's turn to our political wise women.
Trump ready to debate Joe Biden, Joe Biden ready to debate Donald Trump.
[16:50:04]
COLLINS: Well, I mean, Trump basically has been saying this non-stop. They put things no, but his rallies now, talking about how they say that Biden will debate him. So this certainly will take some of the wind out of their sails because they have been using this, Biden --
TAPPER: Although he wouldn't -- he wouldn't debate any of his Republican opponents during the primaries. We should note.
COLLINS: Yeah, he felt that and to be fair, I mean, they still feel really good about that decision and they don't feel like it was warranted, whether or not it was for integrity purposes and intellectual purposes, who who's to say?
I will say Biden's announcement of this did not seem like some well- planned campaign strategy. It was kind of off the cuff because Howard Stern asked him, are you going to debate Donald Trump?
This has been something of discussion when you talk to Biden surrogates and they had never said outright right, yes, this debate will be happening. They'd kind of not offered a real answer. So it is notable. I don't think anyone believes that Biden was going to take Trump, by the way. He's offered to debate outside the courthouse in Manhattan tonight, especially since Donald Trump says he's going back to Florida.
But --
TAPPER: He also said he was willing to have the debate at his -- at a Trump rally. What tomorrow night or something, when was it?
COLLINS: I think he was talking about next Wednesday, when he's got two events scheduled.
I mean, no one is taking it seriously, but I will say news organizations did reach out to the campaigns and say they did believe a debate was important, and that one should happen. Trump's campaign has tried to get them to move the debates earlier to add more because they believe it's to their benefit, whether or not they do one or more than one, it remains to be seen.
TAPPER: What do you think?
GANGEL: To Kaitlan's about Biden just sort of put it out there --
COLLINS: As Biden does.
GANGEL: -- I actually think this could be a mistake and it doesn't take wind out of Trump's --
TAPPER: Mistake by Biden?
GANGEL: Yes, because Kaitlan pointed out that at the Trump rallies, he keeps sort of goading Biden. When are you going to debate? Well, now, Biden has said, I'll debate. And Trump is going to -- what is Trump do, every day he wakes up looking for a fight. Now he has one. Where is Biden? He said he wanted to debate me. I'm ready here. Here I am, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.
So I think Trump will play into this the way that he does.
COLLINS: But they could just point to precedent, which is that, one, we've never had a general election start this early, campaign. And two, the debates aren't typically until closer to the election.
TAPPER: Yeah, I think the earliest they've ever been is September.
COLLINS: Yeah.
TAPPER: In the modern era, very interesting stuff.
Before our attorneys go and enjoy their Friday night, I just want to get your final thought on this momentous week, the first week ever where a former president of the United States is a criminal defendant in court. Your thoughts on what's happened so far?
KHARDORI: Well, it is quite remarkable that were here. But in terms of the trial itself and how I'm thinking about it fraud trials tend to be tedious. They tend to get tedious. And so there's going to be more tedious testimony but the common metaphor that prosecutors use is talking about building their case brick by brick. So were seeing a lot of bricks being inserted here.
Now whether it will all add up to a conviction at the end of the day remains to be seen, but that's a process that's going on right now.
TAPPER: How do you think the prosecution has done with their bricks?
KHARDORI: I think they've done fine, but we're not at the main event yet, right?
TAPPER: Michael Cohen you mean?
KHARDORI: Well, Michael Cohen for sure but also at some point there is going to be need to be some presentation indicating whether and to what extent Trump knew any of this was unlawful, right? We haven't heard any of that yet. Now, all this stuff I was talking about earlier, the circumstantial
evidence surrounding the Michael Cohen's shell companies and all that, the defense's response is going to be Cohen did that, right?
TAPPER: Yeah.
Jim?
TRUSTY: Well, I agree with that. I think that more and more its looking like the critical intent stuff they need is going to come from one guy and one guy only.
TAPPER: Michael Cohen?
TRUSTY: Yeah. There was -- you know, I thought in the abstract, maybe Hope Hicks says something, not even mentioned that opening statements. And by now, the defense has her statements, what they call Jencks material, her prior statements. So both sides kind of know what's coming from these witnesses, and they didn't flag her in opening statement. And I think that was a logical flashpoint, on this issue of intent, but really, I again, not to fast forward to utter boredom.
But when you talk about jury instructions, this judge can dramatically affect the verdict by either saying the government has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this was fully intended to be election interference, my words, or the judge could say, if you find that some portion of the motivation was to affect the election, then you have this mixed motivation model that I think Misty made mention of where its partly personal and the wife, its also partly police political aspirations.
If you have combinations allowed the support of conviction by the jury instruction, than two lawyers on the jury might run with that and 12 people could be an animus. That's a real scary part for the defense to deal with.
TAPPER: Very interesting stuff. You guys have been so great to have this week. Thanks so much hope. We hope were going to see you next week.
And you can join Kaitlan in just a few hours on her show, "THE SOURCE". Her big guest tonight, former Attorney General Bill Barr.
[16:55:02]
That's tonight at 9:00 Eastern, here on CNN, and only here on CNN.
Much more in the legal space coming up. We also need to bring you up to date on a dramatic situation unfolding. A tornado on the ground near Lincoln, Nebraska, that breaking news is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
TAPPER; And we have some breaking news off the top of this hour, a dangerous storm situation right now in Nebraska, as tornadoes have been confirmed on the ground, and a powerful storm is moving for the city of Omaha.
Let's go straight to CNN's Chad Myers in the CNN weather center.
Chad, you're actually quite familiar with this area. Tell us about the situation unfolding right now.
CHAD MYERS, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Yeah. This was a violent tornado just a few minutes ago across Highways Six.
