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Don Lemon Tonight

There ere 251 bodies of the victims on the Malaysia airlines flight 17 crash; Pro-Russian rebels may have the black boxes; Israel is denying that Hamas has captured one of its soldier now; Hamas is using its media strategy to deny Israel the right to defend itself; U.N. security council had an emergency session this evening;

Aired July 20, 2014 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: This is a special edition of CNN TONIGHT, live in New York. I'm Don Lemon. It is 11:00 p.m. on the East Coast. We are live with two big breaking news stories for you this evening.

In Ukraine, we have stunning new images of the flight 17 crash collected today by airbus defense and space and analyzed by all source analysis. They show just how big the area is. More than 1300 acres. Two hundred and fifty one bodies have been reportedly been discovered and that are being loaded into refrigerated cars on two trains in the rebel strong hold of Torrez (ph).

And in Gaza, Israel denies Hamas has captured one of its soldier. That follows a deadliest day yet in the showdown between Israel and Hamas militants.

The U.N. Security Council meeting in New York. We have the latest on both of those stories for you.

We are going to begin with Ukraine. Our senior international correspondent Ivan Watson live for us in Donetsk. The latest on this crash site, the situation at the crash site, Ivan.

IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right.

Well, Ukrainian officials say at least 251 bodies of victims have been identified. We know that many of the bodies have been moved within the past 24 hours to refrigerated cars on two trains in the nearby area. We don't know the ultimate destination of those trains. We know that Malaysian and Australian oh officials are coming to Ukraine now. They are hoping to be able to get to work on identifying bodies of victims and repatriating them to their countries when they can get safe access to the crash site.

Now, many government officials have made direct appeals to the president of Russia to put some kind of pressure on the separatists to allow safe passage. The Russian president Vladimir Putin has issued a statement within the last couple of hours in which he described this as a, quote, "tragic event." Take a listen to an excerpt of his statement. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): However, no one should have the right to use this tragedy to achieve selfish political objectives. Such events should not divide but unite people. It is necessary that all the people responsible for the situation in the region would direct responsibility to their own people and to the peoples of those countries whose representatives have been victims of this disaster.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WATSON: Now Don, Putin went further and he said that it's not enough that some Ukrainian officials are on the ground participating with some international monitors, looking at the crash site which is under the control of Russian-backed separatists. He says that an investigation has to be led by officials from the international civil aviation organization. Of course, the Ukrainian government has been involved in a fierce three-month deadly war with Russian-backed separatists who control the town that I'm in right here, Donetsk.

And the Ukrainian government backed by the U.S. government have been accusing the rebels of shooting down Malaysian air flight 17 with a Russian surface-to-air missile system. They have also claimed and accused the rebels of moving the missile system back across the border to Russia. The rebels here in Donetsk, they deny that they have had the ability to shoot down a plane at a height of some 32,000 feet.

And when it comes to the location of the black boxes, the flight recorders, we have seen some Reuters video indicating what could be at least one of the flight recorders being moved by Ukrainians at the destination of the crash site.

One of the leaders of separatists here has said he is in possession of some kind of technical objects, but nobody here and certainly not the OSCE international monitors on the ground here, nobody knows where exactly the black boxes are right now. And that's a big question that could lead to some answers when it comes to this tragedy -- Don.

LEMON: Ivan Watson, thank you very much.

I want to turn now to the deadliest day yet in Gaza. Israel denying that Hamas has captured one of its soldier now. Martin Savidge live for us in Jerusalem.

Martin, what is the reaction there with this denial?

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I mean, of course, Israel had maintained that it had not seen one of the soldiers captured. Hamas had put out information that it had indeed captured an Israeli soldier early Sunday morning in an operation. They had released a name and I.D. the number. That's not proof. And now, as you point out, the Israeli ambassador to the United Nations is saying, that no, no Israeli soldier was captured.

That news came at the end of what's already been a very difficult, very dramatic and violent day in Gaza. Israelis had to absorb the fact that 13 Israeli soldiers had been killed in a single day, that's the largest number of Israeli military people to be killed in a day in quite a number of years. That brings the total of Israeli soldiers so far to about 18 and two Israeli civilians.

It should be pointed out on the Palestinian side there were 86 Palestinians reportedly killed yesterday. That brings the total number to 476.

Despite the increasing death toll, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu told CNN's Wolf Blitzer this was a war forced upon Israel.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: We didn't seek this escalation. Hamas forced it on us. They started rocketing our cities, steadily increasing the fire. I called for de-escalation, they refused. I accepted an Egyptian cease-fire proposal backed by the U.N., they refused. I accepted a humanitarian lull propose bid the United Nations, they refused. We'll stop our operations when we can bring back to our people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SAVIDGE: You get the sense that Sunday has been a crucial day in the ongoing campaign in Gaza. I think what's unclear at this particular time is whether it is going to lead to potentially some kind of de- escalation. Whether it means the fighting is actually going to ramp up, Don.

LEMON: You know, Martin, the sun is rising other Gaza now. We can see there, behind you. Secretary of state John Kerry is heading to Egypt where plans for a cease-fire continue. But I mean, will it ever stick, do you think?

SAVIDGE: There is a really good question. I mean, it is, of course, many people in the world would like to see an end to the fighting. The problem is that the two main participants may not. You know, Israel says that it has agreed to at least several cease-fires previously and that Hamas has broken each one of those. Hamas has said that it doesn't agree to a cease-fire without specific terms. And they include greater access of opening the borders with Israel. So right now cease-fire is hard to imagine.

LEMON: Martin Savidge in Jerusalem. Martin, thank you very much.

When we come back, Putin under pressure. Will the Russian president take the blame for flight 17?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Welcome back, everyone.

The international community growing more outraged by the day, demanding full and complete access to the crash site and that the remains of the victims be handled with dignity. Joining me now foreign affairs reporter Elise Labott, national

security analyst Bob Baer, counterterrorism analyst Philip Mudd and military analyst Colonel Rick Francona.

Elise, you first. The secretary of state said this about the investigation into flight 17. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: Today we have reports of drunken separatists piling the remains of people into trucks in an unceremonious fashion, actually removing them from are the location. They are interfering with the evidence in the location. They have removed, we understand, some airplane parts. It is critical this is a very, very critical moment for Russia to step up publically and join in the effort in order to make sure there is a full-fledged investigation. We want the facts.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Now he says reports. And so he prefaced that. And I will say if it is indeed true, Elise, it is outrageous. Is there anything the international community can do to speed up and take control of the investigation?

ELISE LABOTT, CNN FOREIGN AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Don, I think what's happening is the separatists clearly who are in control of the territory, this is all getting caught up, a, in whether they have culpability. Clearly all signs point to them. And b, with this acrimony that they have with Ukraine right now.

The United States, officials are telling me well, the Ukraine is in charge of the investigation officially. But clearly, those separatists are not going to be the ones who are going to be dealing with the Ukrainians.

So I think what you really need to do is internationalize this. There is some talk about a U.N. resolution, calling for some kind of international investigation. If the U.N. maybe could take some control or a neutral third party the Dutch, for instance, who suffered a lot of casualties on the plane, the most of any country have a very sophisticated aviation investigation infrastructure. They perhaps could take control of the investigation.

I think, though, when you leave it for the Ukrainians and separatists to keep duke this out you never really going to get the kind of cooperation that you need.

LEMON: And Philip Mudd, you know, if the all evidence is pointing towards Russia, does Putin have blood on his hands? And do you think world leaders will step up and take some real action against him?

PHILIP MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: I think he's got blood on his hands. But really, the question here is not whether he's culpable for this. The question is whether we have the focus over the course of months or years, working with the British, the Germans and others to maintain pressure on him.

Remember, Don, we were talking a year ago about culpability in Syria for the murder using chemical weapons of Syrian civilians. And with the Putin's pirouette, Assad got off the hook. I think Putin is in trouble here (INAUDIBLE). But I don't think the story is over until we figure out what Angela Merkel and others, what they are going to do in Europe.

One quick point before we close here. And that is we are talking about Putin and access to the geographic area of the crash site. My question would be broader and would extend over months and years. And that is access to civilians at the launch site and access to civilians at the crash site.

It's not just whether we can pick up pieces of the aircraft or of the weapon that downed the aircraft and the geographic space. It's over the course of time because, believe me, intelligence will identify people in the chain of command. Whether Putin and others will allow us to talk to people, we are in that chain of command.

LEMON: Bob, Putin is urging cooperation. What do you make of that?

ROBERT BAER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Look, they could be cooperating right now. These investigators could have come through Russia, for instance, rather than Kiev. I mean, they have clear access to that part of the Ukraine. The question is why didn't Putin volunteer to let them come in that way, simply open the border, you know.

He's not going to cooperate because it was a Russian weapon that brought down the airplane. It was Russian proxies who fired it. And he can't let that evidence go public. And so, he's going to hold off cooperating, right, as long as he can.

LEMON: Colonel, you are agreeing with this?

LT. COL. RICK FRANCONA, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes.

LEMON: You also agree with the first point that Philip made?

FRANCONA: Yes. Both, I agree with all of that. Putin cannot cooperate fully. And he say -- he will say he will. But when it comes down to letting real inspectors in there to gather this evidence, the evidence is going to convict him. So he is not going to cooperate in what it does. I just don't s see any resolution to this.

We know what happened. We don't have proof. We couldn't make a real case for this. But Phil makes a good point. If we can get in there and find out who pushed the button, and will only be through human sources on the ground that we'll know that. And without complete access, we'll never get it. But I don't see it happening.

LEMON: Well, Elise, you know, Senator Dianne Feinstein said Putin should fess up. Do you this a fess up that he made a mistake? Do you see this happening? LABOTT: No. I don't see him ever admitting any kind of culpability.

Think maybe an initial first step would be at least to have the OSCE people that are on the ground at least able to treat the bodies with some dignity. We have been watching horrible pictures all day, Don, of the way the bodies are being treated. The way hat debris is being taken away.

At least if the families could get some semblance of closure and if the Russian could get the separatists to help in that way, at least, that would be a good first step. Certainly the Russians won't do anything to cooperate with the investigation that will show any copy of culpability. But they could at least cooperate in an initial sense to clear the crash site of the bodies so the families can bury them.

LEMON: The problem is, Bob, you have people who don't know what they are doing in an investigation like this. They don't have expertise in an investigation like this. So they are contaminating what's a crime scene now.

ROBERT BAER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, exactly, Don. I spent a couple of years with the Russian military in (INAUDIBLE) in central Asia. And it's not a disciplined force. And the rebels in eastern Ukraine are even worse. I mean, they don't know what they are doing, even if they wanted to.

LEMON: Do you think the rebels will turn over the boxes, turn over black boxes to anyone but Putin?

BAER: I think they will turn them over to the Russians. I'm hazarding a guess here. But you know, turn them over to Russian and Russian wills take a look at this. But I don't think the black box is key. As Phil said, the key is talking to witnesses on the ground from where the missile was fired to get a clear picture of who did it and why.

LEMON: OK.

Colonel, first of all, you said you don't think -- no, non, David Soucie said to me he doesn't think that's even the black box they are holding there. But do you think they will turn it over to anyone but the Russians?

FRANCONA: No, I don't. Because as everybody has said, and I agree with. this is damning evidence.

LEMON: Right.

FRANCONA: If there is anything on the black box that would indicate what kind of weapon. Access to the crash site is critical because if they can get access to the airplane parts they are taking away, we'll be able to know what the weapon was. So I think that we know it would be nice to have proof. But once again we don't know who fired the weapon. That's the key.

LEMON: Philip Mudd, do you think they will turn it over to anyone but the Russians? MUDD: I don't think so. But you know, over the course of time, I'm

not sure that's the right question. That is the right question for today, but I'm not sure it will be the right question going into August and September.

One quick point. As we go through these days we are getting clues. We got a significant clue today that's easy to gloss over. We had secretary Kerry out there talking not only about Russian culpability but about training areas that he thought were critical to the training of the force that is fired the missile.

Let me tell you what it tells me as an intelligence professional. Because it is my friends who are running the CIA these days. It is the guys I grew up with.

First, after the intelligence issues in Benghazi and certainly after the intelligence problems of the war in Iraq, you don't put the secretary of state in the position with the level of confidence he talked about today without being really sure about what you're talking about. And really sure that you are telling him that the opposition was responsible.

And second he started to talk about training areas today. Those training areas, it must have been picked up in intelligence before the actual attack. That tells me that people who do things like satellite imagery and are looking at it in the days and weeks before the attack examine that imagery. They are finding clues that support the premise that the Ukraine opposition did this. This vice is closing over the Ukrainians and the Russians. And I think regardless of what happens with the black box it is story is slowly being told. The Ukraine opposition did it. Can we keep Putin on the hook? I'm not sure.

LEMON: OK. All right. Stay with me, everyone because up next, I'm going to speak with the friends of some of the victims of flight 17.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Welcome back.

In Ukraine we have stunning new images of the flight 17 crash site collected today by airbus defense in space and analyzed by all source analysis. They show just how big the area is, more than 1300 acres.

Malaysia's transportation minister says an international team of investigators was prevented from entering the site which is still in the hands of pro Russian rebels.

CNN's Chris Cuomo is there and he filed this report for us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This is an active civil war going on here. So within the tragedy of this plane being taken down, you have complete hostility all around it including the fact that the scene is controlled by men in the circle of suspicion for who caused it in the first place. So it's very difficult to travel. There are tons of checkpoints. They are very heated up. They want a

show of force. They want guns in your face. They fire into the air. So, it is not an easy place to get around. And yet, all of that disappears when you get here and you see how raw the scene is and how little dignity to this point has been given to the victims of the crash.

There is so many families out there are not going to be able to come here, who are hoping that the situations like this, the people on the ground are taking care of their loved ones, who are now victims. And it's just starting to happen. We are watching finally the bodies are being collected and put into bags. Where they are going to bring them, who will identify them, how long it will take, at this point we can't know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Chris Cuomo, thank you very much.

A prominent Dutch scientist was on board flight 17, Joep Lange an AIDS researcher on his way to the International AIDS conference in Australia. Greg Gonsalves is a former colleague and he joins us via Skype now.

Greg, thank you very much. You describe yourself as a comrade. I know it's difficult for his family and people who knew him. What can you tell us about Dr. Lange? What sort of man was he?

GREG GONSALVES, FORMER COLLEAGUE OF JOEP LANGE: Well, I don't want to overstate the nature of my relationship with him. I wouldn't consider him a friend but we were colleagues in the early 2000s and mid 2000s. And he was a vocal supporter of extending AIDS treatment to developing countries.

Before the year 2000, there were only a few hundred thousand people in Africa, Asia and other places in the developing world that had access to AIDS treatments like the ones I take every day. And unlike many scientists who are uncomfortable with political agitation, Jeop was an activist and threw himself into the crusade to get drugs to people around the world.

So he was a trail blazer and that way a pioneer. And I think it's important for everybody to know his political and attack to his work in addition to his stellar scientific and clinical achievements that he's made which you can read about in the scientific literature.

LEMON: You know, we heard that -- we know that dozens of other passengers were headed to the same AIDS conference in Australia. How big of a loss is this?

GONSALVES: First of all, I think there were seven people headed to the AIDS conference on that flight. In addition to Jeop, there were several people from NGOs and foundations, namely in the Netherlands. Also the director for the world health organization. These are tremendous losses for us, not just Joep's death. Martin Deshooter (ph), others on that flight. They all made contributions to the epidemic, particularly in supporting the work of communities around the world. Each of the deaths will be felt particularly by their families and close colleagues. It takes important resources away from the fight against aids which they brought to the table with their talents, perseverance and passion for the work.

LEMON: It's been said a big part of the brain trust when it comes to fighting HIV/AIDS in the world was lost on that flight.

You know, for a man who was so devoted to helping others to be lost essentially as a result of a violent civil war must be terrible for all the people who knew him. You don't want to over step your relationship with him, but the people who loved him as well.

GONSALVES: It is completely tragic that Joep and others on the flight had to die this way. And Joep and Martin and all the others who worked in the aids community had years of productive work ahead of them. And we needed their talents. I think we are going to see over the years and months and years exactly what this loss has made. And I think they are all irreplaceable. They have made historic contributions to the fight against AIDS. And they are going to be sorely missed.

LEMON: Greg Gonsalves, thank you for telling your story and the story of Joep Lange. We appreciate it.

Up next here on CNN, an unprecedented meeting at the U.N. tonight on flight 17 and on Gaza. The latest news on that coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Welcome back.

The United Nations security council met tonight on emergency session. Two big items on the agenda, Gaza and flight 17.

Joined by senior United Nations correspondent Richard Roth.

What happened at tonight's emergency security council meeting?

RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR UNITED NATIONS CORRESPONDENT: Welt, the security council is finishing up discussions now on the Malaysian plane case. They would like a resolution to push diplomatically to push for cooperation to get an independent international investigation. France's ambassador told me why it's important.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GERARD ARAUD, FRENCH AMBASSADOR TO UNITED NATIONS: Well, first I think Russia has still some objections to it. But simply, you know, it was not decent. What's happening in Ukraine isn't decent. The way the separatists are playing with corpses and are tampering with the evidence. So it was necessary that we said stop it and to put pressure on Russia so that Russia convinced its localized to give excess.

(END VIDEO CLIP) ROTH: Russian introduced some of its owned amendments. The British ambassador said that's typical Russian stalling tactics. They may be inching toward agreement. The French ambassador, Don, tweeted out that there would be a vote at 3:00 on Monday. We'll see what happens with that.

The other subject was Gaza. No formal agreement or statement regarding a cease-fire. They are looking for the secretary general who is traveling the region to give them some more guidance. He is in the Middle East -- Don.

LEMON: But there was a denial from an Israeli representative. There has been -- one of their soldiers was captured by Hamas.

ROTH: Ron Prosor, the ambassador seemed rather firm, though, many times ambassadors aren't up on military matters. He seemed confident to say no Israeli soldier was kidnapped.

LEMON: Thank you very much, Richard Roth.

You know, CNN's Jim Sciutto sat down with former Israeli ambassador to the United States Michael Oren earlier today and he had some very strong words for the international media. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: You mentioned one of your op-eds there. I have had the benefit of a sneak peek at another op-ed that you have coming out tomorrow. This gets to the international media's role in covering the conflict. And just reading from your comments in this op-ed here, you make a very strong charge here. That is, in your words, Hamas can count on one of the world's most powerful weapons. The international media. You go on later to say unwittingly or not the international media is complicit in Hamas's plan. Can you explain to the viewers how you make that case.

MICHAEL OREN, FORMER ISRAELI AMBASSADOR TO UNITED STATES: Well, Hamas has beyond a military strategy. It has a media strategy. Hamas knows that with all the rockets it has, it can't destroy Israel. It can disrupt life, create psychological scars. But the real damage Hamas can inflict is getting Israel to strike back. And since Israel has to strike back in densely crowded neighborhoods of Gaza and Hamas is firing from within those neighborhoods, most likely in most cases Hamas is actually buried beneath the neighborhoods and using the civilian populations as human shields, civilians get hurt and indeed killed.

And that creates very heart rending pictures for the media. The media quite naturally wants to go where the pictures are and broadcast them. By the way, Israel does not because of ethical restraints, does not broadcast, does not release pictures of injured Israelis or killed Israelis who have been killed in this conflict. But the Hamas has absolutely no reservations about that. And if it doesn't actually have real civilian casualties, it has fabricated them.

We have countered cases in this case alone where Hamas used pictures from zombie movies. Pictures of casualties from Syria and Iraq and posted them as if they were cause bid Israeli fire.

So by reproducing these very lurid images, it creates an international opinion which is very critical of Israel that finds its I way to the security council in the forms of condemnations accusations of war crimes against Israel.

And ultimately, Hamas is using its media strategy to deny Israel the right to defend itself so Hamas can continue firing rockets but Israel won't be able to strike back because it won't have international legitimacy.

SCIUTTO: But to be fair, ambassador --

OREN: Please.

SCIUTTO: And I understand the point. Because there is a difference in the way Hamas operates on its side of the border. It is embedded in residential areas. It fires rockets from residential areas. It stores weapons there. But to be fair and I can certainly speak from CNN's perspective, we have reporters on both sides. We have them in Gaza. We have them covering the rocket threat. Our Wolf Blitzer among them to the Israeli side of the border.

As a reporter myself, I have reported on both sides of the border in previous conflicts and those images aren't manufactured of the civilian casualties. Again, on both sides of the conflict. So what is the disservice that you're saying the media does when they are covering images on the Gaza side of the conflict?

OREN: I think the media understands there is more interest in audience for the conflict in Gaza than there is for example in the conflict in Iraq and Syria. There is more interest in Palestinians who are killed by Israelis than Syrians are killed by Syrians, than the Iraqis are killed by Iraqis. It makes good for good news. To me, it gets big headlines.

And that, at the end of the day though, that type of coverage is not doing the Palestinians any favor as I call it a disservice. A disservice because it lets Hamas off the look. It gets Hamas off the hook for using its own civilian population as a human shield. The Palestinians in Gaza who are hurt in this conflict are every bit a victim as Hamas as the Israelis who are injured in the conflict.

And Hamas is a vicious, racist, anti-modernist, anti-woman terrorist organization. That should not be let off the hook. It is no different from Al Qaeda, no different than ISIS. And at the end of the day, I also say that type of obsessive coverage of the civilian casualties on the Palestinian side, each has an impact on Israeli society.

You know, Israel pays a very high price for exercising tremendous restraint and taking tremendous precautions and trying to minimize civilian casualties, to even to the degree of endangering its own soldiers. But Israelis are internalizing a message from much of the media that if they are paying a huge price for trying to minimize casualties and getting condemned as war criminals, then maybe they shouldn't have to pay such a price. Fortunately we haven't gotten there yet. But that's the danger. It is a disservice to Palestinians and to Israelis.

SCIUTTO: You make a smart point. The information war is certainly a part of this conflict as well.

Thanks very much to Michael Oren, former Israeli ambassador to the U.S.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: Jim Sciutto and Michael Oren.

So when we come right back, we are going to talk more about Michael Oren's charges. Is Hamas using the media?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Welcome back.

Hamas claimed today that it had captured an Israeli soldier. Israel denies that. Meantime pressure is mounting on Vladimir Putin over flight 17. Two big stories.

I'm going to bring back my panel of experts now. Elise Labott, Bob Baer, Philip Mudd who is via Skype, and also Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona.

And I also want to talk about this interview that Jim Sciutto just did with Michael Oren, the ambassador.

Elise Labott, it is interesting that there is no doubt that both sides, I would imagine, tries to manipulate the media. But does Michael Oren have are it right?

LABOTT: Well, certainly, ambassador Oren has a point. I mean, Hamas does use civilian deaths to further their narrative. That Israel is the oppressor of the Palestinian people. And there is disproportionate use of force. And clearly -- but to say that we shouldn't be covering the story, to say that we should just ignore those, I think is also, you know, journalists aren't going to do that, Don.

I mean, obviously, as we have been pointing out as Jim Sciutto pointed out, and we have been covering both sides, I think fairly equally in terms of exactly what's going on on the ground. The facts don't lie in terms of there it happened to be more Palestinian deaths for a multitude of reasons. They don't have the iron dome system. It is true that Hamas uses human shields.

But I think as the conflict goes, the public narrative always look towards the civilian deaths. I don't think anybody disputes the fact that Hamas did start the rockets. And Israel is defending itself with the operation. But the facts on the ground don't lie. And when you see these civilian deaths and the humanitarian disaster that's happening in Gaza you just can't look away. LEMON: Colonel, he said the coverage of the injured lets Hamas off

the hook.

FRANCONA: I don't see how. We knew there would be a large amount of civilian casualties when it started. You cannot go in to the most densely populated area in the world and not expect this to happen. Especially when Hamas does not take any step to protect this population.

And as Elise, quite the opposite. They moved the people into the areas where they know that the Israelis have to move. They also store their rockets where the Israelis are going to bomb their people there. So, I think it's important that not just for the Israeli side but the Hamas side that the story be told. Because you can use it to condemn Israel and likewise, you can use it to condemn Hamas.

LEMON: Right. And that Bob, what about the deaths of the teenagers on the beach. How does that play into it?

BAER: Well, as Rick said, you just can't help it, you know. You go to Gaza and it's so tightly packed. There are civilian casualties. These are inevitable. Even when the Israelis call in advance to bombard a neighborhood you can't get that message through. Not everybody has a telephone. So you know, the moment they decided to go in, you knew these casualties would go way up.

And I frankly think the press reporting has been fair. I have been listening to CNN all day. And it's been fair. Reported both sides. And secondly, we hold the Israelis to a higher standard than we do for instance Syria or even the Iraqi radicals, you know. So, I think it's all been good reporting on this conflict.

LEMON: Elise, there is a hot mic moment here that we have to talk about involving secretary of state John Kerry apparently mocking Israel's pinpoint operation, so-called pinpoint operation. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KERRY: That's a hell of a pinpoint operation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right. It's escalating significantly. It underscores the need for a cease-fire.

KERRY: We've got to get over there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

KERRY: Thank you, John. I think, John, we ought to go tonight. I think it's crazy to be sitting around.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: It is FOX News Sunday this morning. How big of a blunder was this? LABOTT: Well, certainly it was a hot mic and it was a private

conversation with an aide. You know, the secretary is a big boy and he's been around. He should have been a little bit more careful, I think.

But Don, I think what's happening is that, you know, the Israelis told the United States that this was going to be a limited operation for the tunnels. And what the secretary was getting at is this is not anymore limited operation. You can't when you have Israeli ground forces going into Gaza, this ceases to remain a limited operation.

And then inevitably, when you have a conflict with Israel, the United States long held and sacrosanct position that Israel has the right to defend itself comes up against the concern there are disproportionate use of force and there are an increasing number of deaths. And this goes into the whole public narrative we are talking about.

So the U.S. is concerned that this is getting a little bit out of hand. They are concerned that there will be a lot more loss of life. That's why secretary John Kerry is getting out on a plane to go tonight to Cairo to talk about, you know, efforts toward the cease- fire.

I don't know how successful he'll be. I'm not sure Israel is ready for a cease-fire. And I'm not sure Hamas is ready to stand down. But certainly, I think that the unguarded moment reflects a real growing concern from the United States even as they publically say that Israel has the right to defend itself.

LEMON: Phil, I want to turn now to Ukraine. The U.N. resolution on access to the crash site, will that make any difference to Vladimir Putin?

MUDD: I think it will because forget what the U.N. says. What Putin is trying to figure out, I suspect, he has had to dig out of this hole. And if you go back to the Syrian example from last year, he saw an opportunity and say hey, if we get the international community here involved, we will eliminate chemical weapons in Syria, maybe Russia's partnership with basher al-Assad, he's off the hook on that one. Well, in this case, he might be saying, hey, there was a tremendous mistake here. I've got to believe Vladimir Putin hasn't decide to sit here saying, you've got to be kidding me when he is talking to the Ukrainian rebels in terms of how they use his weapon system.

LEMON: Do you agree with that?

MUDD: It's sort of a lifeline out or another way to get out of the business.

LEMON: Colonel, do you are agree?

FRANCONA: Yes. I mean, I can imagine what the back channel conversation is between Putin's office and his dissidents. Because they have really put him in a bad, bad position. And he probably has no way out except to do what he did today and come out strong. LEMON: Bob, how do we know that once intelligence is collected

surrounding this, how do you know it is credible considering everything that's happened, you know, the lack of security there, the handling and maybe even the tampering of the evidence.

BAER: Well, Don, I think secretary Kerry is depending a lot on overhead. Watching SA-11's come across the board. They are identifiable by satellite, you know, moving into position. And once you look at the totality, the intelligence, I'm not talking about what we are getting from Ukraine, he's convinced. This administration doesn't want to go to the mattresses, you know, against Russia on this. And they are only doing it reluctantly once the intelligence is good. And if you look at overhead you would understand this.

So I think that we reluctantly have are to challenge the Russians. And Phil's right. Putin has -- he hasn't -- he has to recover from this. He cannot give up the eastern Ukraine. He has to get over the shoot-down of this airplane and make sure it doesn't happen again.

LEMON: All right, Thanks everybody. When we come right back, outrage over the handling of flight 17, the crash site. What can the world do about it?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: We told you about an emergency meeting at the U.N. security council emergency session tonight. They are discussing, of course, Ukraine and also Gaza. They are asking now for a Gaza cease-fire, calling for a Gaza cease-fire. The U.N. security council had an emergency session this evening. We'll update you on the story on "NEW DAY" coming up tomorrow morning at 6:00 a.m. here on CNN.

The families of flight 17 face a heavy emotional toll, not to mention the difficulties of dealing with foreign governments.

Joining me is Mary Schiavo, former inspector general of the department of transportation, now an attorney for victims of transportation accidents. Mark Dombroff, an aviation attorney and the former head of the department of justice civil aviation unit. Good to have you both of you back with us. So Mary, families

desperately hoping to get, you know, the bodies of their love ones home for a proper burial. I spoke to one of them tonight, heartbreaking. How likely is this, is that to happen at this point? Or how soon, I should say, because I would imagine, some of them, most of them will be returned to the families.

MARY SCHIAVO, ATTORNEY FOR VICTIMS OF TRANSPORTATION ACCIDENTS: Well, I think its depends on what the United Nations security council does and what Putin does. And I think the United Nations security council has to be very, very forceful. This is just an outrage. And it violates, you know, and, I think that it violates treaties then they could take away some of the freedoms of the air which hit it is countries and the airline businesses. So they do have some things they can do even though IKO is basically a civil body and offshoot of the U.N.

LEMON: Yes.

And just, you know, Mark, just really the lack of respect for these people who died on this plane. World leaders have expressed disgust, really, over what they call the bar baric treatment of the bodies. Is there more than the home nations can do about this?

MARK DOMBROFF, AVIATION ATTORNEY: It's very difficult, Don. I think in the typical situation to the extent aircraft accidents are typical, we would never see anything like this. The area would have been secured. The bodies would have been treated with proper respect. Arrangements would have been made to get the bodies back to the families for proper burials.

Here, I think that the question really becomes one of international pressure since it seems all the protocols, all of the agreements, have fallen by the wayside. I think right now it appears pressure on the Russians, pressure on the separatists to the extent that it's possible is the only answer here.

So I really don't see a quick or direct way out of this. It seems to be more of a geopolitical solution than an aviation solution.

LEMON: You know, this might be a symbolic movement, at least to something, Mary, Malaysia announced today that it is retired the MH-17 flight number out of respect for crew and passengers. Again, it is really symbolic, but tangible. Are there any tangible efforts that are going towards the families at this point?

SCHIAVO: Well, there should be. There are some provisions in the ICAO annexes and certainly Malaysia has learned from 370 that you do need to provide help and assistance to the families. We just haven't heard about it. We can only hope there is going on behind the scenes. And given the size of the loss from the Netherlands, they do have some efforts going on there.

But there is another symbolic thing that we could consider and that is consider the separatists as terrorists. They name them as a terrorist organization. That brings in a whole new panoply of things, not the least of which. Then victims can go after those who supply money, arms, et cetera. That would be a very symbolic move.

LEMON: Yes. And speaking of the money, right, Mark, will the families ever see any kind of justice, maybe any kind of compensation?

DOMBROFF: Well, I think there is a difference, Don, between the question of justice and the question of compensation. Will they see compensation? The answer is yes. I think under the international agreements that your viewers have heard about for the last several days, there is a contractual obligation. I think it is quite frankly premature and irresponsible to suggest that beyond the contractual compensation Malaysia airlines would have additional liabilities. The suggestion that somehow they knew that they were flying an unsafe route, simply, there is no factual basis for it whatever. They were where they were supposed to be, flying at the altitude they were supposed to be at. The question of justice, I think, that becomes almost an individual

issue for each family. And I question whether or not at the end of the day justice will r be given to the families given the fact that the true wrongdoers are, and I do agree with Mary on this point, the true wrongdoers are terrorists.

LEMON: And Mary, you know, compared to this time to last, the handling of the ferries, how is Malaysia airlines doing?

SCHIAVO: Well, we haven't seen much. We don't know much about what they are doing. They are trying to send envoys to the accident site. They are trying to do things. But their hands are tied on this one.

LEMON: All right. Mary Schiavo and Mark Dombroff, thank you very much. Appreciate you joining us this evening and helping us through the story that really has so many levels and so many different passage (ph). Appreciate that.

That's it for us tonight. I will see you back here tomorrow night. I'm Don Lemon. Make sure you stay with CNN throughout the evening for the latest breaking news on flight 17 and the conflict in Gaza.

Good night.