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Don Lemon Tonight
Alleged Audio Recording Of Moment Michael Brown Was Shot Has Surfaced
Aired August 25, 2014 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: It is 11 p.m. on the East Coast, 10 p.m. here on the streets of Ferguson. I'm Don Lemon. Welcome back to CNN TONIGHT.
We are live in a community that has been through so much over the last two weeks. Tonight in the hours after the funeral of Michael Brown, it is calm here as a family mourns its loss. And a mother turns to perhaps the only people who can understand what she is feeling, mothers who have also lost their son. An extraordinary and moving conversation, Michael Brown's mother, Lesley McSpadden, talks with the mother of Trayvon Martin and the mother of Sean Bell, who were shot to death by the New York police 2006. Three mothers united in grief.
And meantime, black parents all across the country struggling tonight, wondering if there is anything that they can say to their son to keep them safe. Tonight, I'm talk with Bishop T.D. Jakes.
Again with some breaking news this hour, an alleged audio recording of the moment Michael Brown was shot. The FBI has questioned a man who says he recorded the audio of gunshots at the time Michael Brown was shot by Ferguson police on August 9th. That is according to his attorney. CNN cannot independently verify the authenticity of the tape and has reached out to the FBI for confirmation of their interview with the Ferguson resident who says he made the recording. Here it is. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are pretty. You are so fine. Just going over some of your videos. How can I forget?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So joining me now is Lopa Blumenthal, she is the attorney. We're hearing on this tape your client, Lopa, having a video chat with a friend. Jus doing normal, whatever you do. You can hear the gunshots in the background. Explain to us what happened.
LOPA BLUMENTHAL, ATTORNEY: That's right. He was in his apartment. He was talking to a friend on a video chat. He heard loud noises and at the moment, at the time he didn't even realize the import of what he was hearing until afterwards. And it just happened to have captured 12 seconds of what transpired outside of his building.
LEMON: OK. Let's listen one more time to what happened.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are pretty. You are so fine. Just going over some of your videos. How could I forget?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK. You have been interviewed by the FBI. He has been interviewed by the FBI. Tonight as we were calling your office, you were on the phone with the FBI?
BLUMENTHAL: Yes. The FBI was in our office interviewing my client.
LEMON: And what did they talk about?
BLUMENTHAL: They discussed the tape with him and retrieved the information. And they're doing a thorough investigation. They thought this would be an important piece of the investigation.
LEMON: And on the tape, what we have been told that at least six shots were fired at Michael Brown. In the tape that you have, that is alleged to be of the shooting. Again, alleged, we can't independently invite CNN. We didn't shoot it. So, there are more than six shots.
BLUMENTHAL: I personally heard at least 11.
LEMON: At least 11 shots. Stand by, Lopa. I want to read this to our viewers. This is what is going on now. This is breaking news. This is purported to be audio of the gunshots fired when Michael Brown was shot between Officer Darren Wilson and Michael Brown. The FBI has question ad man who says he recorded audio gunshots at the time when Michael Brown was shot by Ferguson police. That was on August 9th. That is according to his attorney who is here. She is standing here.
The man who asked not to be identified, not to be revealed, lives nearby the sight of the shooting and was close enough to have heard the gunshots, according to his attorney who is here. He was speaking to a friend on a video chat service and happened to be recording at the same time Michael Brown shooting, again, according to his attorney.
In the recording, you can hear a quick series of shots, as you've heard, followed by a pause and then another quick succession of shots. Again, CNN cannot verify independently the authenticity of the tape and as we reached out to the FBI for confirmation of their interview with Ferguson resident, the Ferguson resident who made the recording. Let's listen to the recording and we will continue to talk with the attorney.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are pretty. You are so fine. Just going over some of your videos. How could I forget?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And again, I as you say, I hear 11 shots on there. So would the FBI, how long have you been trying to get in touch with authorities over the tape?
BLUMENTHAL: I became aware of this tape through a mutual friend late last week. I had to get his consent before I could reach out to the FBI. But hearing the tape I thought it should be brought forward. We contacted the FBI and they were prompt to respond to our inquiries. And they met with him tonight. (INAUDIBLE).
LEMON: I want to bring in now Chris Chestnut, an attorney. Chris joins us now.
Chris, if this is indeed the shots, right? The audio of the Michael Brown shooting, it is indeed something to be uncovered. I want to you to and then you and I will talk about it. Let's play it again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are pretty. You're so fine. Just going over some of your videos. How could I forget?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: It has been said from those doing the autopsy that at least six shots, Chris, were fired at Michael Brown. If this is indeed the audio, it sounds like more than six I'm hearing 11.
CHRIS CHESTNUT, ATTORNEY, THE CHESTNUT FIRM: Yes. This is surprising. What is most disturbing to me about the shots is the succession, the pause. You hear shots and a pause and more shots. To me, that indicates an intention. You know, we dealt with a similar thing in the Farrell case in Charlotte, North Carolina. It was one, two, three, four, pause, one, two, and there 12 shots, ten of them striking fatally Jonathan Ferrell.
And it is the pause that gives more concern in a police shooting, especially with unarmed victim because at this point Mr. Brown is defenseless. He has no weapon. He is more likely than not down. And we saw that the trajectory of the bullets, it is down, similar with the Jonathan Ferrell case. So I think these are some real concerns about this shooting.
LEMON: And so Chris, how might investigators use -- she is saying that her client has been spoken to by the FBI. He has been interviewed by the FBI just a couple hours ago.
CHESTNUT: Yes. I think it can be confirmed by forensics, you know. How many shell cases at the scene? Where were the shell cases? How many bullets were in the clip of the officer? So there are a lot of options for a lot of avenues for law enforcement to pursue. The question is will they pursue them? The question is was the scene was really preserved?
Mr. Brown was there four hours but I didn't really see the scenes sterilized. It is kind like a CSI, if you will. So there certainly are some concerns that the scene may have been compromised as well. This audio I think will be very probative, very helpful, not only to local authorities but to federal authorities in their investigation. But again, that cause is indicative of the mental state of that officer as he was pulling the trigger.
LEMON: All right. Chris, stand by. Also Lopa Blumenthal who is the attorney of the man who has this tape, joins us now. Stand by. I want to tell our viewers at the top of the hour week waiting a press conference for the man in charge of the investigations here, Ronald Johnson. He will give, at any moment I should say, he is going to give us an update.
As we go to break, the breaking news is this is purported audio of the Michael Brown shooting. I want you to listen as we go to break and then we'll be back on the other side. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are pretty. You are so fine. Just going over some of your videos. How could I forget?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Welcome back to CNN tonight. Breaking news, an alleged audio recording of the moment Michael Brown was shot. CNN cannot independently verify the authenticity of the tape and has reached out with the Ferguson resident who says he made the recording. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are pretty. You're so fine. Just going over some of your videos. How could I forget?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Joining me now, the attorney Lopa Blumenthal who represents the man who recorded it inadvertently. This is during the time of the altercation with police and Michael Brown. He is having a video conference conversation with a friend.
BLUMENTHAL: Yes. And he didn't even realize the import of what he had recorded or what it was until later. And he listened to it but even then, he was not sure what was going on. A mutual friend brought it to my attention. And because I work in criminal law and civil rights, when I heard the tape I realized that it was very important and I wanted to make sure that it was, you know, placed in the right hands and gotten before the authorities. Like your expert that, I was very concerned about that pause as well. It is not just a number gunshots. It is how they're fired and that has a huge relevance on how this case might finally end up.
LEMON: As an attorney you would --
BLUMENTHAL: I don't know. It was gratuitous that we were able to listen to it. I don't know if a lay person would recognize, they might think, that's interesting to hear the shots. But as an attorney you can analyze the information, take stock of what you hear and how important that is.
LEMON: OK. Here's the audio once again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are pretty. You're so fine. Just going over some of your videos. How could I forget?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So how close was he to the area?
BLUMENTHAL: He was very close. He was very close to the area. He lives in the apartment complex very close.
LEMON: Did everything out to check it out?
BLUMENTHAL: Not until later. He didn't even know what had happened until he went out later to find out what was going on. And then when he heard, he realized that he may have recorded this and that's when he checked and found out that he had indeed gotten the 12-second clip. That's all that he had but he had recorded the shots.
LEMON: And this is such a volatile situation. Your client doesn't want to be identified. Understandable, right? Because there is so much media attention and so there is so much unrest in the community.
BLUMENTHAL: He is a very private person and he wants to maintain his anonymity. Of course he wants to cooperate with the authorities in any way to make sure that, you know, this evidence is hand in the way that it should be. However, he just wants to make sure that he is protected and safe because there is been so much chaos in the last couple weeks.
LEMON: I want you to standby. Again, CNN has new information purported audio tape of the shooting. We want to get now to the man in charge of the resources here and the response, Ron Johnson from the Missouri highway patrol. Let's listen in.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAPT. RON JOHNSON, MISSOURI HIGHWAY PATROL: Activists, young adults whose efforts are helping to turn the tide. I also appreciate Mr. Mike Brown senior's call for peace on this day. The changes for us in west Florissant Avenue were for the third night in a row there were no restrictions on traffic flow, changes taking hold in the business in west Florissant too, shops are staying open, there is room for customers to park.
Most importantly, change is apparent in our schools where the once empty classrooms have been filled with the voices of children who are learn again. It was the first day of school in the Ferguson district. This is a very big step forward. 10:00 p.m. only the we deployed no smoke device no, tear gas, no mace, and again only the no, police officer fired a single bullet. Nor did we have to respond to a single call. Wednesday night, the number of arrests was six, Thursday night it was
seven. Friday it was zero, Saturday night, it was six. Last night it was zero. And tonight once again, it is zero. We did respond to some medical emergencies due to the heat.
There is a marched tomorrow scheduled tomorrow on Morrison Avenue which was postponed today. It is been rescheduled tomorrow at 6:00 p.m. It will start at the greater St. Mark's church on chambers road. There will be some traffic restrictions due to the starting time of 5:00 of the march. This evening, chief Belmer, chief Dotson and I attend ad meeting at the church of Christ the King on Hails bury road a few miles from here.
Among those working to inspire change, there were Bernice King, the daughter of Dr. Martin Luther he King, clergy from around north county spoke about making things better through a commitment to raising up the next generation, young adults, talk about the way of needing to treat people better by police and by community. But they also talked about meeting them halfway. They are seeing a difference in the past few weeks. It will take time to change but I believe the process has started. I will take any questions.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Do you expect the presto over?
LEMON: That is Ron Johnson, the head of the response here. Head of the Missouri highway patrol here basically saying there were no incidents of violence tonight. Nothing all day. One of the rallies was canceled because of heat and they will reschedule it again. It is that's good news for the people Ferguson. No unrest. Everything appears to be peaceful.
I want to go back now with our breaking news. Here is the breaking news here on CNN. The FBI, CNN is reporting, has questioned a man who says he recorded audio of gunshots at the time Michael Brown was shot by Ferguson police on August 9th. CNN cannot independently author authentic indicate the recording. But again, we have reached out to the FBI to speak to them about their interview with the man who alleges to have recorded this. I want to you listen and then we'll talk about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are pretty. You're so fine. Just going over some of your videos. How could I forget?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: The attorney who represents this man is Lopa Blumenthal. She is joins us here in Ferguson, also, Van Jones' is an attorney and the host of CNN's "CROSSFIRE" and Chris Chestnut, an attorney as well.
I want to get to you first, Van. When you hear that succession of shots, you hear a few shots, I think it is about six, then, a pause, and then you hear three to four more shots, if not more, what do you make of that? VAN JONES, CNN HOST, CROSSFIRE: Look, I think it is a very big deal.
Because this begins to confirm, you put all the stories together. What people were saying was look, I was there. I saw it. You know there was initial shot. He was trying to surrender and then there were shots that were not necessary.
And for the first time we now have real-time confirmation that that is at least a plausible story. You hear a big pause between that first volley of shots, a big pause and then another volley of shots. And that is very consistent with what witnesses were saying, why they were so upset.
You know, if you look at this, you say, look, if this guy was trying to tackle the cop or attack the cop and the cop was firing to defend himself, why does are all these witnesses are telling, you know, stories not sound like that? They sound like someone trying to give himself up and then the extra volley and that is why there is so much concern. This is the very first time we have independent confirmation possibly that that version of events may in fact be true.
LEMON: Again, CNN cannot independently authenticate that. But again, I just want to tell our viewers in case you were just tuning in and I want to read it very quickly because I want it to be clear. The FBI has questioned a man who says he recorded audio of gunshots at the time Michael Brown was shot by Ferguson police. That was back on August 9th. That was according to his attorney.
His attorney is joining us now. The name is Lopa Blumenthal. The there you see her there. The man who asked that his identity not be revealed, lives nearby the site, very closely, says according to his attorney, at the site of the shooting and was close enough to have heard the gunshots according to his attorney. We'll listen to it real quickly and then get quick analysis on the other side.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Welcome back with our breaking news. An alleged audio recording of the moment Michael Brown was shot. And again CNN cannot independently verify authenticity of this tape and has reached out to the FBI for the confirmation with the Ferguson resident who said he made the recording. Here is the recording. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are pretty. You're so fine. Just going over some of your videos. How could I forget?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So joining me now, attorney Lopa Blumenthal who is the attorney for the man with the tape along with attorney Chris Chestnut and Matthew Fogg, a retired chief deputy U.S. marshal. Were you able to hear the shots?
MATT FOGG, (RET.) CHIEF DEPUTY U.S. MARSHAL: Yes, I was.
LEMON: And what do you think?
FOGG: I think it sounds like a pause in there. And when you hear that pause, then it brings some concerns.
LEMON: How significant is it if it is the audio in the shooting?
FOGG: Very significant. That means somebody had time to think and then fire again.
LEMON: Yes. Do you agree with that, Lopa?
BLUMENTHAL: I do.
LEMON: Why so?
BLUMENTHAL: That was what caught my attention initially. Exactly as the officer said, it shows a point of contemplation.
LEMON: Chris?
CHESTNUT: I echo their sentiments as well regarding the pause. And we have the same issue in the Farrell. But also, there are a lot of other details I think in this audio. If you notice the decibel level of the shots doesn't really change which suggests either the officer was not advancing at all or that the officer was advancing very slowly which in my opinion goes to disprove this theory that there are allegations that there was an altercation.
Moreover to disprove their altercation theory, if indeed Mr. Brown was involved in an altercation, I don't think the officer could get off that many shots, 11 shots. This is not possible. Maybe one or two but not that many.
And secondly, this officer is going to have to justify this shot. I mean, this is a densely populated area. It is the middle of the day. Children are probably outside playing. So Mr. Brown, there is no evidence that Mr. Brown was creating a forcible felony or any threat to the public so why was there is a necessity to jeopardize the state and the public with 11 shots in the densely populated area, in the middle of the street in the middle of the day? I have significant issues with this the shooting. LEMON: I want to bring in Lopa in. Lopa, because initially I was
told by people here that there were many more witnesses, possibly recordings and people were afraid to come forward because they didn't want to deal with police and they didn't want the media spotlight. Now one of these cases happening now and your client is coming forward.
BLUMENTHAL: Yes. Basically, the only reason he didn't come forward earlier other than the safety concerns we discussed is because I think unless you're an attorney like your guests, perhaps you don't understand the import of the pause and what was heard and he though, you know, there is really nothing here. And until I heard it and I brought to it his attention that it is extremely important that this is put into the right hands and people can hear it can who make a determination based on it. That is the only reason it wasn't brought out earlier.
Matt, can there be another explanation for that pause?
FOGG: Well, I don't know. I mean, it is hard to say. When I listen to the tape, it is hard to say. I can't see any other explanation being -- it was a pause. Now, what was going through the officer's mind? I will say this. Once you start firing, you get off a lot of rounds in two to three seconds. I mean, that's quick. And normally when you're firing weapon and you feel like your life is in danger, you are going to automatically squeeze them off. That's (INAUDIBLE) what happened. So the number of shots, I'm not certain about that -- I mean, what was going through his mind.
OK. I want everyone to listen very closely, to listen very closely. I'm going to plate again. Listen to shots, a pause and then a succession of shots again. And I want to tell our viewers, this man was on, having a video chat with a friend. Something people do every single day. He is in the middle of a video chat and inadvertently records this. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are pretty. You're so fine. Just going over some of your videos. How could I forget?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Van Jones? This tape will be analyzed over and over and over again. And my question is, are there other possible recordings out there, audio or video, this one just surfacing.
JONES: Well, there really could be. Of course it is an unusual situation, the guy happens to hit record at exactly the right time. And of course, to be fair, there could be other explanations for that pause if we want to be fair here. Maybe the officer will say I fired and he kept advancing so I fired again.
But it does do is it locks in a certain time frame, it locked in a certain number of shots. Not just the shots that hit him but the shots that obviously missed. Now you have a much tighter narrative framework that both sides are going to have to figure out some way to deal with.
This is a huge development. I mean, literally we were talking an hour ago about the fact that we don't have any audio, we don't have any video, makes it highly unlikely the police officer will get off. Now, suddenly this appears. This is a huge development, a huge deal.
LEMON: If it is indeed the recording, Matthew Fogg, why are you shaking your head in agreement?
FOGG: Well, I'm on agreement. I mean, when you hear it, you hear a distinct pause and then you hear firing again. That means the officer had to think about what he's doing at the time. So not that ties into all the things, what is this guy really a threat at the time? Was he advancing? And Van is right. I mean, the bottom line is if the guy was still considering to be a threat, then, maybe that's why the officer continued firing. We don't know. But we do see there was a pause which means he had time for thought.
LEMON: I want to thank all of you for helping with this breaking news. We are going to talk about this recording a little bit later on in the program. So stick around, everyone.
But up next, Michael Brown's death has had a major impact on young black men here in Ferguson. We are going to hear from them, coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: We're back now live in Ferguson, Missouri with our breaking news tonight. An alleged audio recording of the moment Michael Brown was shot. His death has forced many young African-American here to reflect on their owned lives. How they treat each other and how they're treated by police. Here's CNN's Sara Sidner.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SARA SIDNER, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For 18-year-old Eddie Walker, this is a painful day, another final goodbye to another friend.
EDDIE WALKER, MICHAEL BROWN'S FRIEND: When I found out, I found out that he died at school. And I was like hurt, crying. I don't want to do this (bleep) no more school, it is just hard.
SIDNER: It is a wonder he can even cry anymore.
WALKER: I lost a lot of family. And I could say, from these past three years, I've lost at least like 15, 20 people.
SIDNER: Fifteen, 20 friends and family.
WALKER: Friends and family.
SIDNER: How do you live with that? How do you live with that as a person?
WALKER: It is hard. You know, I pray every night. I pray God keep me determined to keep me going. Keep me motivated.
SIDNER: We met Walker and Alonzo Davis outside the church where the funeral of their friend Michael Brown was about to begin. Mourners gathered by the thousands. Many of them young black men trying to make sense of what they see on the streets.
Do you worry about African-American's men's future, your young men?
ALONZO DAVIS, 21-YEARS-OLD: Yes, especially young people.
SIDNER: What makes you worry the most?
DAVIS: They're wasted on doing stuff. Gang banging and stuff like that. Life is too short.
SIDNER: His first worry is about what black folks are doing to themselves and each other.
DAVIS: His second is about the people sworn to serve and protect.
SIDNER: As the guy affectionately called Big Mike was laid to rest, shot and killed by police Officer Darren Wilson, the spot where Brown fell is still covered with reminders of the life he lived. And that is where we found a crowd of young black college students sending a silent message to the community.
ADRIAN KELLY JR., STUDENT: It is heartbreaking to see. But what I do, the outcome is our community came out together to protest for peace and justice.
SIDNER: The camera crews, the celebrities, the civil rights here's will head home leaving a community to come to grips with the turmoil of the last two weeks.
RUSSELL LANTON, HIGH SCHOOL STUDENT: Now, this area is kind of rough. It is scary because it is not only you have to worry about the police, you got to worry about other black people, too, that trying to get what they can get.
SIDNER: 18-year-old Russell Tanton goes to the same school Michael Brown attended. He plays football and is set to graduate this year. If ever these students need a remind every of what happened in Ferguson, all they have to do is look across the football field. Their view is of the cemetery where former student Michael Brown is now buried.
Sara Sidner CNN, St. Louis, Missouri.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: Our thanks to our Sara Sidner.
We are joined by Kevin Powell, an activist, a writer and public speaker and also Valerie Bell, the mother of Sean Bell who was shot and killed by New York City police officers in 2006.
Thank you so much for joining us. I want to play this audio that is reporting to be the shooting of making Brown. This has just surface.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are pretty. You're so fine. Just going over some of your videos. How could I forget?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So you hear the shots. I know it is hard. You said that you wanted to comment on it. Why?
VALERIE BELL, SEAN BELL'S MOTHER: Hearing that is like proof in the pudding, I hope, the evidence they can use against the police officer and whatever else they can use. Even though you have this evidence it doesn't help out sometimes. But I pray this will help with what they have to go through.
LEMON: But then in your son's incident, you would have taken any evidence if you got it.
BELL: Yes. It was right there and how can see they don't have a gun. So, the evidence is right there. The system is just, you know, not working for everybody.
LEMON: Kevin, what do you make of this?
KEVIN POWELL, ACTIVIST, WRITER, PUBLIC SPEAKER: Well, it is obvious to me that he shot more than once at Michael Brown. And it sounds like he stopped and started again. And so, if that's not clear, then, you know, we even been talking about all day in the funeral like, you know, how many times do you need to shoot someone if you're trying to detain them? I mean, he shouldn't have been shot at all but this is like, my God, it sounds like intend to kill from the start. It is obvious (INAUDIBLE).
LEMON: And again, we have to say that again, this is purported to be, reached out to the FBI. It just surfaced tonight and since he has spoken to the FBI, there is some reason to put this on the air because, again now, he is possibly officially a witness. This will go into evidence.
I want to talk to you, Valerie. I spoke with you yesterday. You met Michael Brown's mom for the first time yesterday. And you guys had a very emotional exchange of conversation. When you saw her today, what did you tell her?
BELL: I went over there and gave her a hug and told her, you know, please said stand up proud for your son. Never forget him. This is only the beginning. I know it is hard. Go home and rest, scream, cry, just do for yourself first. And keep up the good fight for him. Yu are the voice for your son.
LEMON: Kevin, I know you heard the young man in the story that Sara Sidner ran before. You had an event earlier today focusing on where the community goes from here. What did you hear from young people? Because in the story, we said listen, we were facing police officers, we are also facing our own community violence. That is a lot to live up to. I shouldn't say to live up to. That is a big challenge for people here. A huge responsibility.
POWELL: Yes, a packed house, standing room only tonight. People from Ferguson, from St. Louis, from all over the St. Louis County came out. And what was incredible about it is mostly young people who are incredibly diverse and over and over again they talk about the fact that they are going to stand up for their rights. They are going to use their voice. They are going to get to continue on. The do feel the challenges. They feel the pressure. There is a lot of talk towards older people to like please support us, you know. We need your hem. Don't just talk about it, understand it. Our voices matter. And I just need to say to Mrs. Bell that I worked with that situation in 2006. And it hurts my heart, eight years later we're still seeing these cases around the country. And she was a strong woman, a strong and God bless to the family of Michael Brown, Jr.
LEMON: I want to you listen to part of conversation yesterday. OK?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BELL: When you go around the house in the kitchen, do you talk to Trayvon?
FULTON: Absolutely.
LEMON: Do you?
BELL: If I know something has to be done, Ma, I got this.
LEMON: Do you do the same thing?
LELSLEY MCSPADDEN, MICHAEL BROWN'S MOTHER: Especially when it rains. Yes.
LEMON: When it rains. Why?
MCSPADDEN: Something about the rain. Something about it.
LEMON: That makes you want to --
MCSPADDEN: I feel him.
FULTON: He's there. He's there. He's watching over you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: No matter who you spoke to today, no matter how they feel about this case, who they thought was in the right, who they thought was in the wrong. Most people said today it was about a parent losing their child, mom or dad. And that's how can she move forward after that. You did.
BELL: I have faith and trust to the Lord. I have to say that with him on your side and having your husband, your children if you have any, your church, keeping me strong. Knowing the word of God, I have to bring that out. That's what keeps me strong. And I have to keep myself busy. I pray that she would take time for herself and continue to fight for his son, be the voice for her son. There are things we have done to be the voice for our son and that's the only way you can be able to live with yourself.
LEMON: Yes.
Trayvon Martin's mom yesterday said today would be really hard for her, right? And I remember, speaking to my mom when I lost my dad. My mom said, the funeral was tough. But the quiet time afterwards, after everybody left, after the re-pass, after all that, that was tough because it became real that she was alone, that my dad wasn't there anymore. That is going to be tough for them.
BELL: Yes, it will be. It will be tough because you start questioning yourself. You start questioning God. But there is a purpose and plan in everyone's life. You know, sorry they have to go so young, but I just pray that she will get the strength to continue on to be the voice for her son.
LEMON: Thank you, Valerie. Thank you, Kevin. Appreciate you joining us.
We are going to be right back with more of our breaking news tonight here on CNN, an alleged audio recording of the moment Michael Brown was shot. Also what you believe about Ferguson might have a lot to do with whether you are black or white. We are going to get into that next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: We're back with our breaking news. An alleged audio recording of the moment Michael Brown was shot. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are pretty. You're so fine. Just going over some of your videos. How could I forget?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: There are plenty of versions of what happened on the streets of Ferguson on August 9th. But does it depend on whether you are black or white?
Joining me now is Ben Shapiro. He is the editor-in-chief of truthrevolt.org and editor at-large Breitbart News. And also, Van Jones is back with us.
So Van, first to you. I show you this CBS New York Times poll. It shows that 57 percent of blacks think the shooting of Michael Brown was unjustified. Only 18 percent of whites believe it was unjustified. Does that disparity surprise you?
JONES: You know, it doesn't surprise me because all the facts haven't come in, what you have right now is an ink blot test. You know, if you show a child an ink blot, and one child says it looks like a horsey. Another says it looks like a ducky. Another says it looks like a madman trying to kill my mother. Say, wait a minute. Obviously, these children are having very different experiences of life before the ink blot tests.
What's going on here is that African-Americans have such a different experience with law enforcement. We're jumping to conclusions about law enforcement because often law enforcement jumps to neglect conclusions about African-Americans. And so, you're seeing that in the data.
Now, as we get more information, those numbers may come back together. This is an ink blot test giving you a sense there's something wrong with the way African-Americans and the law enforcement interacting here because you have such a negative conclusion being drawn with such little information.
LEMON: Ben, I want to take another listen to the audiotape and then you and I will talk. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are pretty. You're so fine. Just going over some of your videos. How could I forget?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So here we have a piece of potential evidence. Is it something people may interpret differently depending on their background, sort of audio ink blot test as Van says?
BEN SHAPIRO, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, TRUTHREVOLT.ORG: Sure. I mean, it is interesting when I first heard the tape a few minutes ago. My reaction is actually the same as Van's, I think, and as some of the people you've had on the program. Which is the pause is the key if this is what we're talking about. But I would caution that the biggest factor here is that we need to shut up and wait for the information to come out.
Now, I think the biggest problem with this case is exactly what the poll shows. Not in the second line, do you think that the officer is guilty or not, but the third line, do we have enough information? The fact that 68 percent of white people say we don't have enough information and 39 percent of black people say we don't have enough information. I agree with Ben, this is of war shock test.
But the problem is that if 68 percent of white people say yes, it is a war shock test. It is an ink blot. I don't know if it is an ink blot. I don't know if it is somebody stabbing my mother or whether this ink blot is a butterfly. And so what we need in the country that we are going to pass, I think, is some of the racial conflict is a recognition that nobody knows what the ink blot is until we actually have enough evidence to show what the ink blot is.
LEMON: And I think the numbers are closer, Ben, that for people saying they need more information, you know. And the people who say was it an overreach by police are excessive force. I think the numbers are closer so at least that is a good sign that people are waiting for more information before they rush to judgment here.
There is also, you know, about six in ten African-Americans say that they have not much faith that the investigation will be conducted fairly. While about the same percentage, 62 percent of whites said they had a lot of, or some faith that it will. Do you think that justice will be served here, Ben?
SHAPIRO: You know, I do wonder about that -- sorry.
LEMON: Ben, go ahead. SHAPIRO: Yes. I mean, I think the question as to whether justice
will be served here very much depends on maybe some of the political motivations that people will play because here's the reality. If you're on that grand jury and you've seen all the violence in Ferguson, it is possible that you're worried. I'm not putting this guy behind bars if I say an indictment is a good idea and toss it to the grand jury, then, I get on scot-free (ph).
The problem when you have a situation like this is that the public pressure is so high, the fury is so great. The coverage is so intense that it perverts the cases beyond what the facts may actually bear. I said all along in this particular case that if it turns out the evidence shows the officer in question did what he is accused of having done, he shouldn't be just tried and convicted. He should be on death row and I think everybody sort of accepts that across the spectrum. Why don't we wait until the process takes place and we see all the facts before we start protesting?
JONES: Well, part of the --
LEMON: A lot of people say it is very hard to get a conviction against an officer, Ben.
SHAPIRO: I'm sure that's true whether that it is hard to get a conviction against the officer. But at least in a court of law we'll have all the evidence out there. If the jury does the wrong thing, then we can protest against the justice system. But until we even know the basic fact, I mean, at this point, we don't even know the officer's narrative. We haven't heard anything from the officer's lawyers, we haven't heard anything from the officer. And now, you know, we're sitting here and speculating on audio that hasn't been confirmed. This is how desperate we are for new pieces of information to try to uncover exactly what it is we're looking at.
JONES: I think the protests were actually justified for a couple reasons. First of all, when you have an unarmed person who is shot, that's a reason for concern. When that body is left uncovered for four or five hours, that's reason for concern. And then when you have a department that can somehow find a videotape from the store, you know, that can't produce a police report. He's begun to wonder about whether this is a fair investigation. That's a good reason to protest.
The last thing I want to say is this. You know, if you do have a situation where why are we in front of a grand jury? I think a special prosecutor here would have been a much smarter way to go. The grand jury is a secret process. We don't know how the information will be put forward. All of these are reasons for real concern.
And the last thing I'll say, having spent a bunch of time with you, Don, there is a concern in community that is very widespread. This police department has been very aggressive toward African-Americans. Three warrants per household. This department is only, has three African-American cops out of 53. There is real reason for concern here. And I think that the community was right to protest peacefully about the fact that we do have it. LEMON: And you know, Ben, it is not cut and dry either because when
you speak to many people and most people agree that the police department should reflect the community that it represents. But it is also very difficult sometimes to find officers of color to serve in small communities because they're in such demand. They really have had their choice as to which police department they can go to. Mostly they want to go to bigger police department rather than a smaller one. There are lots of issues to be worked out here. Thank you very much. I appreciate both gentlemen. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: And before we go tonight I want to play again that audio, the alleged audio recording of the moment Michael Brown was shot. CNN cannot independently verify the authenticity of the tape and has reached out to the FBI for confirmation of their interview with the Ferguson resident who says he made the recording. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are pretty. You're so fine. Just going over some of your videos. How could I forget?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
