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Don Lemon Tonight

Battle Against ISIS; NFL Star Accused of Child Abuse; David Haines Beheaded by ISIS; Israel a Model for Defeating ISIS?; Is Serial Murderer a Jihadist?

Aired September 15, 2014 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone. This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Alisyn Camerota. Don Lemon is on assignment.

We have breaking news for you tonight, bombs raining down closer than ever to Baghdad as the U.S. battles ISIS. We will bring you the latest on those airstrikes.

Plus, all the developments in the case of Vikings star Adrian Peterson, charged with abusing his 4-year-old son. Peterson says he was just disciplining the boy. According to TMZ, this was the result. So where do you draw the line when it comes to disciplining a child? Do parents have the right to decide? Or are there universal red flags of abuse? We will get that answer from our panel of experts.

Plus, the battle against ISIS. The terrorists behead a third Westerner and threaten a fourth. Who is this executioner? Great Britain says they know. And is the U.S. inadvertently playing into the hands of ISIS? One controversial experts says Israel could teach the U.S. a lesson in how to fight ISIS.

Also, terror on the hole front. The prime suspect in a coast-to-coast killing spree says he's on a mission to avenge Muslim deaths in Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan. Is he a lone wolf terrorist or a madman? We will get into all of that tonight.

But let's begin with the latest on the child abuse case against NFL star Adrian Peterson.

CNN's Miguel Marquez joins me with that.

Miguel, great to see you. So tell us the breaking news tonight on this case.

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, there's yet more information about another possible situation involving Adrian Peterson.

This is another 4-year-old boy from a different mother. This is an incident that our affiliate KHOU is report on. CNN has not independently confirmed those accusations because there are some concerns with it. This has apparently happened last June.

But I can tell you that Mr. Peterson's lawyer was very, very quick with a statement on this. I want to read a bit of that from Rusty Hardin, his lawyer. "The allegation of another investigation into Adrian Peterson is simply not true. This is not a new allegation. It's one that is unsubstantiated and was shopped around to authorities in two states over a year ago and nothing came of it. An adult witness adamantly insists Adrian did nothing inappropriate with his son. There is no ongoing or new investigation."

Clearly, a very tough and hard statement coming out tonight, trying to put the kibosh basically on this new allegation.

CAMEROTA: So, Miguel, I don't have to tell you this case has caused a huge debate on discipline today. What are the voices on each side saying?

MARQUEZ: Interesting. There's even some more breaking news. For the first time, we have actually had a company, Radisson in this case, come out and say it is ending its limited partnership with the Minnesota Vikings over this.

There is a great upset over the fact that the Vikings first deactivated Mr. Peterson and then reactivated him after only one-game suspension. If you listen to ESPN these days, you have commentators like Cris Carter going after him and Hannah Storm was almost crying on air. Amazing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HANNAH STORM, ESPN: I spent this week answering seemingly impossible questions about the league's biggest stars. Mom, why did he do that? Why isn't he in jail? Why didn't he get fired? And, yesterday, why don't they even have control of their own players?

CRIS CARTER, FORMER NFL PLAYER: Take them off the field. I don't care we're in a climate right now. I don't care what it is. Take them off the daggone field, because you know what? As a man, that's the only thing we really respect. We don't respect no women. We don't respect no kids. The only thing Roger and them do, take them off the field, because they respect that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUEZ: And I should make clear that Radisson is suspending its limited partnership, whatever that limited partnership is, not necessarily ending it.

Mr. Peterson did release a statement today addressing the concerns that so many have. "I have to live with the fact that when I discipline my son the way I was disciplined as a child, I cause an injury that I never intended. I also understand after meeting with a psychologist that there are other alternative ways of disciplining a child that may be more appropriate. I have learned a lot and have tried to reevaluate how I discipline my son going forward. But deep in my heart, I have always believed I could have been one of those kids that was lost in the streets without the discipline instilled in me by my parents and other relatives."

Now, clearly, that statement is exactly what is causing so much concern, the idea that in his head what he did to his kid amounted to discipline and not abuse -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Such an emotional debate on both sides. We will get into that. Miguel Marquez, thank you so much.

The NFL is struggling tonight to come up about a coherent policy on violence off the field in the wake of these allegations against Adrian Peterson and those against Ray Rice. But what are their guidelines? Do they even have any?

Joining me now is victims rights attorney Gloria Allred, Van Jones, CNN "CROSSFIRE" host, and Judge Glenda Hatchett. She's the host of "The Judge Hatchett Show" and a consultant to the NBA and the NFL. It's great to have all of you with us tonight. Judge, let me start with you. So you can help us understand NFL justice. It sounds like if you abuse a child, but you didn't mean to, you sit out one game. If you punch a woman, you sit out two games, unless there's some backlash, and then you sit out six games.

But if there's video, you're suspended indefinitely. Do I have those guidelines right?

GLENDA HATCHETT, HOST, "THE JUDGE HATCHETT SHOW": Well, I'm not here to try to defend them. And I'm actually consulting with the NBA on domestic violence, and I have done this for about 18 years.

And this is a tough topic because I have been chief judge of a juvenile court, of one of the largest juvenile courts in the country. I have seen literally thousands of child abuse cases, more domestic violence cases than I care to remember.

And if you can imagine, and I have seen it a lot, lot worse. But I think that the big problem that we're seeing, Alisyn, and I think everybody will agree to this, is that there is no coherent policy. And it seems to me that they are reacting now to whatever the backlash is and the media pressure.

CAMEROTA: Great point.

HATCHETT: We saw one thing happen, and then we saw -- the world saw the tape inside the elevator, and then we see another reaction.

CAMEROTA: Yes. And then they change their policy.

HATCHETT: And they change the policy, because there is not a coherent policy. The policy is being made up in the process of this national debate.

CAMEROTA: Great.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: I want to bring in Gloria.

Why don't they have any standard rule book for this stuff, Gloria?

GLORIA ALLRED, ATTORNEY: Well, they don't have a standard rule book and they just have a recent so-called policy because they really haven't taken responsibility in the past.

I think the NFL record, especially under commissioner Roger Goodell, is abominable. There have been numerous reported incidents of violence against women. They have failed to give a number of suspensions that they should have given, failed to have a policy where players are actually being punished.

They have numerous cop-outs and excuses for failing to do that. The fact that maybe the players have not been arrested or that they haven't been prosecuted or that they haven't been convicted is not a reason for them to get a pass, because in the same way that with colleges, that colleges have a duty to provide hearings to rape victims, to sexual assault victims, and to take action even if there is no prosecution, even if there is no conviction of the perpetrator, and that's what the NFL should also be doing to protect women.

CAMEROTA: And on the flip side, Gloria, of course, in this country, people are innocent until proven guilty.

Van, I want to pose this to you, because the Vikings announced today that Adrian Peterson will play this Sunday against the New Orleans Saints. Here's what the team owner said in a statement -- quote -- "We believe this is a matter of due process, and we should allow the legal system to proceed so we can come to the most effective conclusions and then determine the appropriate course of action."

Van, is that the right call?

VAN JONES, CO-HOST, "CROSSFIRE": Well, look, I'm for due process. I think everybody is for due process. The problem you have right here is that for due process to be due, there has to be a process, and right now what you have is complete chaos.

And here's why. They have rules for everything that they care about. They have rules for field goals, everything they care about, when it comes to sponsorships, deals, money, plays, training. Everything they actually care about, they have rules for. They don't care about this issue. And so they're making it up.

Now the danger is because they're making up the rules, they change them every day, they actually are running into a situation where they could be violating due process rights for their players, and you're going to have an even worse mess. And I think the bottom line is...

(CROSSTALK)

ALLRED: I wanted to say, what about due process for the victims, for the women, for the children? Are they being afforded any rights, or is the NFL just concerned about due process for the players?

I think and I have information that in some cases they have done inadequate investigations in the past. And that is why they have not given appropriate punishment. Are they going to take full responsibility? Are they going to fess up? Are they going to say what their record has been in the past and that it has failed these victims? Or are they just going to do a face-saving about-face by retaining so-

called experts and saying we will do better in the future without acknowledging what they have failed to do in the past?

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: Judge, hold your thought for a moment. Gloria Allred, thank you very much for your perspective. Van, hold your thought.

So where does your right to discipline your child end and abuse begin?

Does your answer depend on where you live and the color of your skin? We will debate that.

Also, the latest on those U.S. airstrikes on ISIS near Baghdad.

Plus, does the U.K. already know the identity of the ISIS executioner? Why would they keep that quiet? We will ask the experts.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: Here's some breaking news. Adrian Peterson through his attorney is vehemently denying a report from KHOU in Houston of allegations of abuse of a second child. The station reports the alleged incident happened last June while the child was visiting Adrian, his father.

CNN cannot confirm this affiliate's reporting. Meanwhile, in the case in which he has been charged, Peterson says he's not a perfect parent, but he's also not a child abuser.

CNN's Jean Casarez has his explanation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Do the pictures of Adrian Peterson's 4-year-old son, welt marks and bruises, tell a different story than his explanation?

KELLY WALLACE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right now, there are many people in our country who believe it is a justified form of discipline. They learned it from their parents. They feel like they turned out OK. They don't necessarily believe the research, which shows that it leads to negative consequences.

CASAREZ: In a statement released Monday by Adrian Peterson, the NFL player states: "I disciplined my son the way I was disciplined as a child," going on to admit he caused an unintentional injury. "But deep in my heart, I have always believed I could have been one of those kids that was lost in the streets without the discipline instilled in me by my parents and by other relatives."

The emotional issue was addressed by Whoopi Goldberg in ABC's season premiere of "The View."

WHOOPI GOLDBERG, ACTRESS: I don't want every Tom, Dick, and Harry to be able to tell me -- if I decided to take a (INAUDIBLE) to my grown daughter, she would kick my behind so fast. But, you know, when I was a kid, parents bopped you.

CASAREZ: Forty-nine of the 50 states allow for reasonable physical punishment in the home. But Peterson has been charged with felony child abuse. The always outspoken Charles Barkley says parents should be able to discipline their children.

CHARLES BARKLEY, FORMER NBA PLAYER: I'm from the South. Whipping is -- we do that all the time. Every black parent in the South is going to be in jail under those circumstances.

CASAREZ: Peterson says he has met with a psychologist to learn other forms of discipline.

DR. JONATHAN FADER, SPORTS PSYCHOLOGIST: If my job every day is to run as fast as I can and knock someone over, when I come off the field, well, is that going to be different than working in an office? Absolutely. So we really need to teach athletes methods of cooling down, practical methods that they won't slough off and say is a bunch of crap, but real things that are helpful to them to help them kind of change their outlook and change the way they feel so that they're not acting on a whim. They're acting on a well-thought-out, planned way of either parenting or dealing with their significant other.

CASAREZ: To former Minnesota Vikings player Cris Carter, corporal punishment to a child, it's just wrong.

CARTER: You can't beat a kid to make them do what they want to do.

TOM JACKSON, ESPN: That's correct.

CARTER: The only thing I'm proud about is the team that I played for. They did the right thing.

JACKSON: Yes.

CARTER: Take them off the field.

CASAREZ: But the Vikings have not changed course, saying he will be a part of practices this week and most likely will play next weekend.

CARTER: Take him off the daggone field, because you know what? As a man, that's the only thing we really respect.

WALLACE: People just have such a strong feeling about it. People bring the emotions to it, and they bring their own background and their own sense of right and wrong in parenting to that conversation.

CASAREZ: A conversation going on across America on the age-old debate whether sparing the rod spoils the child or helps the child.

Jean Casarez, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE) CAMEROTA: All right, let's debate this more with Dr. Janet Taylor. She's a psychiatrist. And back with us are Van Jones and Judge Glenda Hatchett. Glad to have all of you.

Judge, I want to start with you. What is the line between discipline and abuse? Is the law clear on this?

HATCHETT: The law -- there's a lot of discretion. I will be the first to say that, Alisyn.

And I want to also say that I think a parent has the right to decide how to discipline a child. It gets to be a problem, though, when that discipline then becomes abuse, where the child is injured, where people end up in my courtroom because the child has been abused.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: OK. So is that the criterion, is that the criterion? If a child is injured, that's the line where it crosses over into a crime?

HATCHETT: Well, yes. And the thing, though, is that it depends on who's looking at that.

In the Peterson case, he's been indicted. If it doesn't get resolved, it will go before a jury, it will go before a jury, and the standard in Texas is that what is reasonable based on those community standards as to whether it's abuse.

CAMEROTA: OK.

I'm glad you're bringing that.

And I want to bring you in, Dr. Taylor, because Adrian Peterson says that what he did was reasonable. I'm just going to read you his statement again. "Deep in my heart, I have always believed I could have been one of those kids that was lost in the streets without the discipline instilled in me by my parents and other relatives."

He's arguing, Doctor, that this is what was used on him and it was successful.

DR. JANET TAYLOR, PSYCHIATRIST: Well, you know, there's a saying that when you know better you do better. And discipline is meant to be instructive. And discipline does not have to involve physically abusing or the intent to inflict harm.

With -- the marks that were left on Adrian Peterson's child clearly were child abuse based on the fact that they created an injury and they showed harm. But parents do have the right to discipline their child, but what they need to understand is it crosses over to an abuse when there's an intent, when you leave marks, and there's also psychological abuse that happens verbally.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: Right. But you say when there's an intent. He didn't intend -- he says over and over he didn't intend to hurt his child.

HATCHETT: It doesn't have to cross intent legally, though. If he injured that child, whether he intended it or not under these circumstances, it still can be...

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: But I want to get Van in. Hold on, because Van I know is going to make an interesting point, because, Van, we have heard from Charles Barkley, you heard just there in the piece, and from Whoopi Goldberg who basically have said that this -- in the South, everybody would be in jail because this is how people, this is -- their families have disciplined them and they see nothing wrong with taking a switch to a child.

JONES: Well, if first of all, a lot of Northerners or Yankees may not even know what a switch is.

This is a switch. I brought this to show. If you're -- not just black kids, white kids know what a switch is. Your grandma tells me you go get me a switch. And you pull this twig off of a tree. And they hit you in the legs with it. And whether it's right or wrong, I think people need to understand, this is a part of Southern culture.

If you look at the polling data, a majority of all Americans, a majority of white Americans agree with corporal punishment. A majority of Southerners agree, Midwesterners too. This is something that goes on. On the cosmopolitan coasts, this is shocking to people. But there's paddling. There's whipping with belts. There's switching with switches.

There's spanking. And this is something that we need to have a debate about. I would say to anybody, because I was corporally punished, kids today, you don't have to do that. Just take their iPods from them. Take their iPad. That's enough. You don't have to do all that stuff anymore.

(CROSSTALK)

JONES: But you need to understand, this is something that is a major part of especially Southern culture, and to say that this guy is completely -- a complete lunatic, he took it too far, but it does happen.

CAMEROTA: OK, Dr. Taylor, go ahead.

TAYLOR: But this is a mistake also to characterize it as a black issue. The reality is spanking is an ineffective way to discipline children.

And what happens is, yes, you may create fear, but if you keep spanking them, you will always create a lack -- also create a lack of respect. And when you have a teenager who does not fear you nor respect you as they grow up, then you have a problem.

CAMEROTA: Dr. Taylor, everything you're saying makes sense except that there are statistics, as Van was just saying, that 80 percent of preschool children in this country, 80 percent have been spanked. So not all of them are growing up to be aggressive or to have mood disorders or any of the things that we have heard come from spanking.

TAYLOR: But spanking in and of itself is ineffective as discipline, but we're not talking -- we're talking about abuse that leads to mood disorders and being more aggressive.

And some parents do not know the difference between picking up an object to discipline or spank your child vs. a firm pat or removing their hand. When you pick up objects, that's abuse. When you intend and want to inflict harm or pain to teach your child, that is abuse.

CAMEROTA: Very quickly, Judge, do you think that there is a cultural divide here, North-South, black-white?

HATCHETT: I think that it's generational, Alisyn.

(CROSSTALK)

HATCHETT: I think people do what they have learned. I think they do what they have learned. I don't think it's necessary. I know white families who have been in my courtroom. I know rich families. I know poor families. My point is, I think it's whatever you have been taught...

CAMEROTA: Right.

HATCHETT: ... is what you continue to do.

CAMEROTA: Great point.

(CROSSTALK)

HATCHETT: But let me say this.

(CROSSTALK)

HATCHETT: It's very important...

(CROSSTALK)

JONES: Let me just point out the polling data is very clear that the majority of all racial groups in this country believe in corporal punishment. African-Americans are about five to six points higher. It's not just an African-American issue. It's an American issue.

HATCHETT: I agree.

And that was exactly -- and that was exactly the point I wanted to make. But let me just say -- and I think that -- Doc, who I love and know, I think that this is a teachable moment. And I am sorry that this has come to this. But I think it's a teachable moment in this nation.

CAMEROTA: What's the lesson? (CROSSTALK)

HATCHETT: We have got to have this conversation, and you can't discipline a child when you're angry.

I have said that to thousands of parents. Do not discipline when you're angry.

CAMEROTA: All right. Everyone is nodding in unison.

Van Jones, Judge...

JONES: Just take their iPod from them. Just take the iPod. That's enough.

CAMEROTA: Glenda Hatchett.

That's the solution. There you go. That would inflict pain.

Dr. Janet Taylor, thanks so much for talking about all of this. It is important to have this conversation.

HATCHETT: It is.

CAMEROTA: And we have breaking news. U.S. fighter jets target ISIS positions in Iraq, including an airstrike against a target near Baghdad. So, up next, a full report.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: We do have some breaking news.

The U.S. has launched airstrikes against ISIS targets near Baghdad and also in Northern Iraq. Now, officials say ISIS was firing on Iraqi security forces near the capital city.

We're joined by White House correspondent Michelle Kosinski.

Michelle, thanks for being here. What do we know?

MICHELLE KOSINSKI, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Alisyn, this happened today.

And I think what strikes you right off the bat is how close this was to the capital. This is on the about 20 miles from Baghdad. But U.S. officials tell CNN that this was in fact not a case where ISIS fighters were trying to take the capital or advance on it. This happened within a Sunni area, where there's more support anyway for ISIS fighters.

And they say that Iraqi security forces who have been trying to defend their country from ISIS were fired upon by them. The Iraqis then asked the U.S. for help and the U.S. responded with this airstrike.

Another interesting thing, though, is that U.S. Central Command is describing this airstrike as the first one in an expanded effort to go beyond just defending U.S. interests in Iraq, which is how these airstrikes have been pretty consistently defined up until now.

And to go beyond just backing up humanitarian efforts, like rescuing the Yazidi people who were trapped on Mount Sinjar a few weeks ago, this is actively helping those Iraqi security forces who are engaged in offensive operations. So, it sounds like we're expecting to see more of this, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: It does sound like that. All right, Michelle Kosinski, thanks so much for explaining that to us.

Secretary of State John Kerry in Paris today trying form a coalition to battle ISIS. Kerry says nearly 40 nations are already on board. This comes as a third Westerner, David Haines of Britain, is beheaded by ISIS.

Joining us to talk about all of the developments are Nic Robertson -- he's a CNN senior international correspondent -- and Paul Cruickshank, CNN terrorism analyst and co-author of "Agent Storm: My Life Inside al Qaeda and the CIA," which will be featured in a CNN documentary airing tomorrow night at 9:00 eastern anchored by Nic Robertson.

We're looking forward to seeing that, gentlemen. Thanks so much for being here.

Nic, let me start with you. Prime Minister David Cameron says that he knows the identity of the ISIS executioner behind the beheadings. Why isn't he releasing that?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, he's not making that clear. When I talked to him last week, he said that he is sharing intelligence information with his allies, meaning the United States. Potentially, there are intelligence operations going on at this time that, by announcing this man's name, would compromise those operations either in the U.K. or in Syria or both places. So that's the most likely explanation at the moment.

Also, there is this Scottish referendum going on. Another big issue for him. He doesn't want to rock the boat there either.

CAMEROTA: So Paul -- Paul, what do we know about this group of British men who've allegedly joined ISIS? And who calls them the Beatles?

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Well, this information appears to come from the former hostages themselves, who were speaking to the "Guardian" newspaper in the U.K. And the actual hostages were nicknaming their captors the Beatles, according to "The Guardian," because they were British. These are a group of British ISIS fighters who are guarding hostages near the ISIS stronghold in Raqqah in Syria, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Nic, do we know how many more hostages ISIS has?

ROBERTSON: We don't know the full total. There are several other westerners, at least. Many Turkish officials are being held, 49 being held when -- when ISIS overran their consulate in Mosul in June this year. And of course, what's happening to the western hostages is an object lesson for the Turks that, if they join the coalition to support attacks against ISIS, then this may indeed happen to their nationals, as well, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Paul, I want to talk about what John Kerry announced. How many countries are in this coalition and do we know who will be playing leading roles?

CRUICKSHANK: Well, it seems, I mean, the Americans will be playing the leading role. But the French have indicated they may participate in strikes, as well, in Iraq. The British may also come to the same conclusion.

They're also looking to get Arab Sunni powers involved. They clearly want this to be seen as an international coalition, not just a western action, and they don't want this to be seen as sort of Shia versus Sunni. So if you can get the Sunni powers involved, that's obviously going to provide very helpful cover, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Yes, of course. And Nic, we have heard that the Arab countries will be playing some role. Do we know if they've signed on and if they would go so far as to being involved in air strikes?

ROBERTSON: Secretary Kerry has said that some Arab nations would provide assistance in kinetic strikes. We certainly know that the Emiratis are providing bases for the French to fly their military sorties over Syria. The Emiratis themselves have been involved in strikes in the region, as well. Most recently in Libya.

The Egyptians have signed up to support, as well. Saudi Arabia has been very forward leaning over the past year or so in wanting to put even troops on the ground inside Syria. That's not something Secretary Kerry or David Cameron here in Britain is pushing for at the moment.

But there is certainly some countries in the region stepping up to assist. Precisely how they will -- perhaps one of the most key countries, Jordan that borders both Iraq and Syria, intelligence assets from that country were key in taking down and eliminating the al Qaeda in Iraq leader in 2006, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. So the intelligence assets from those regional countries can play a role. They can mix and mingle a lot easier than people from our countries can, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Absolutely. Nic, Paul, thanks so much for your expertise.

And we want to remind our viewers that tomorrow night Nic Robertson will anchor a CNN special report. It's called "Double Agent: Inside al Qaeda for the CIA." That's tomorrow night at 9 p.m. Eastern.

Our next guest argues that the United States should go after ISIS the way Israel battles Hamas. What exactly does that mean? We'll find out.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) CAMEROTA: The brutality of ISIS appears to be a strategy to get the world's attention, and it appears to be working. But what's the best way to fight ISIS? Our next guest says Israel should be a model for defeating ISIS.

Joining me now is Alan Dershowitz. He's the author of the new e-book "Terror Tunnels: The Case for Israel's Just War against Hamas."

Congratulations on your book, out today.

ALAN DERSHOWITZ, AUTHOR: Thank you. Yes. My first e-book.

CAMEROTA: That's great.

DERSHOWITZ: I finished writing it on Thursday. And it's out today.

CAMEROTA: Incredible.

DERSHOWITZ: It's amazing what they can do.

CAMEROTA: All right. So let's talk about your thesis. And you say you would like to see the U.S. deal with ISIS the way Israel has dealt with Hamas. How does that differ from what President Obama is suggesting?

DERSHOWITZ: Well, President Obama's speech could have been taken right from a speech by Benjamin Netanyahu. You go after the leaders by targeted assassination. You give them no asylum in any countries. They come after us, we go after them.

Now ISIS is going to start hiding -- already it's started -- among civilians and using civilians as hostages. And so Israel has had to confront that, as well, by using carefully targeted attacks.

Now, Israel's ratio of civilians to combatants killed is about 1-1. The American NATO ratio is four civilians to every terrorist killed. And I think Israel gives warnings. Knocks on the roof. Does things to protect civilians.

People complain all the time that too many civilians are killed. But it's because Hamas uses what I call the dead baby strategy. They purposely put women and children in harm's way in order to get the media to show these horrible pictures of dead civilians. And the media often doesn't explain that it's because Hamas uses these children as human shields that these deaths are produced.

CAMEROTA: But the problem with your suggestion is that Israel hasn't done, it doesn't seem, a very good job of decimating Hamas. I mean, for decades Hamas has been bringing suicide bombers across the border, launching missile attacks. Decades is not the timeline that the U.S. president or public is comfortable with in fighting ISIS.

DERSHOWITZ: And that's because the world will not allow Israel to do what it is capable of doing militarily. Because ISIS has managed and Hamas have managed to use the media to make their case. What ISIS does is it uses the media to show brutality to recruit.

Hamas uses the media to turn the international community against Israel.

Now, obviously, ISIS is much further away from the United States than Hamas is to Israel. And Israel has a much harder time, because it has to attack in very crowded, densely populated areas. Hamas could use less densely populated areas, but that wouldn't induce Israel to kill civilians. And that's their strategy, to get them to kill civilians.

CAMEROTA: But Israel has also used ground forces.

DERSHOWITZ: They had to. They didn't want to. I met with Prime Minister Netanyahu in his house for dinner shortly after I went into the first tunnel. Told him about the tunnel. He knew about it, obviously. But he was so reluctant to send in ground troops, because he knew that ground troops mean Israeli soldiers will be killed, Palestinian civilians will be killed.

CAMEROTA: Are you suggesting ground troops can be used in this war against ISIS?

DERSHOWITZ: It's going to be inevitable. It's going to be necessary. Once ISIS hides its soldiers among civilians, they're going to find that air attacks are going to become harder and harder to do. And there are going to have to be, if not boots on the ground, shined shoes on the ground, by which I mean CIA operatives, other people, Special Forces. This war cannot be one from the air.

CAMEROTA: Well, what about President Obama's plan to use local fighters, to use the Peshmerga and to arm moderate fighters, even Syrian rebels?

DERSHOWITZ: Well, I hope that works. Are there any moderates? You know, moderates that we armed in the past turned against us. In fact, many of ISIS's arms come from arms we gave Iraq.

I hope we can find troops on the ground from other countries. After all, Saudi Arabia, Jordan are much closer to ISIS than the United States. They should fight their own battles. Israel always fights its own battles.

And in my book "Terror Tunnels," I explain how difficult it is for Israel to fight these fights because the international community turns against it.

My message is if you support the United States going after ISIS, why do you not support Israel going after Hamas? They're pursuing the same strategy. Israel has a better record of avoiding civilian casualties. And Hamas poses a greater immediate danger to Israel than ISIS poses to the United States.

CAMEROTA: And you always think that Hamas gets a pass. But you remind everyone that they, too, are bent on annihilation just the way ISIS is. DERSHOWITZ: Not only that, they are bent on forming an Islamic

caliphate, the same as ISIS. They murder as many people. They don't behead, but what they do is murder children in their bed like the Fogle (ph) family, kidnap young children on the way home from school and murder them.

And if Israel didn't have the Iron Dome, they would have killed thousands of people during this war. And yet, the United States, thankfully, and Israel working together have created this Iron Dome, which has saved so many lives.

CAMEROTA: But I mean, of course you know the American public has no stomach for boots on -- American boots on the ground, in Iraq.

DERSHOWITZ: I understand that. Because every time we've sent boots on the ground we've in recent years made a mistake. The Iraq war was a disaster. If we can avoid boots on the ground, that's going to be a very, very important thing to do. It's not clear we'll be able to. But I hope we'll be able to use other people's boots on the ground, not our own.

But I think Israel has served as a model for how to fight terrorists who use human shields and hide in civilian populations. That's the challenge.

CAMEROTA: Alan Dershowitz, remind us of where to find your book today.

DERSHOWITZ: On Kindle, on Nook. Anywhere online. And it's a bargain. It's only $5.98. And it's up to date. I finished it last Thursday.

CAMEROTA: That's incredible. Great stuff. Thanks so much for being with us.

DERSHOWITZ: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Coming up, the suspect in a killing spree says he was taking revenge for Muslims killed in Iraq and Afghanistan. Is he a terrorist or just a killer?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: Listen to this story. A man accused of a killing spree that targeted strangers across the country says he was avenging Muslim deaths in the Middle East. So why aren't prosecutors calling him a terrorist?

CNN's Pamela Brown has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Police say the man seen here in handcuffs is 29-year-old Ali Muhammad Brown, the prime suspect in a killing spree stretching from New Jersey to Washington state, one allegedly motivated by Brown's hatred of U.S. foreign policy. Brown's alleged victims, all adult males with no known connection to him.

Police say between April and June of this year, Brown killed three people in Washington state, allegedly shooting them late at night in quiet locations, execution-style. A few weeks later in New Jersey, 19-year-old college student Brendan Tevlin was found dead inside his SUV from multiple gunshot wounds.

REV. BRIAN NEEDLES, CHURCH OF ST. PHILOMENA: When you bury somebody like that, 19 years old, we don't have any answers.

BROWN: Police say they traced the gun used in all of the killings to Brown. Court documents show he confessed and told investigators he strictly follows the Muslim faith and had become angry with the, quote, "evil the government was allowing to take place in the U.S."

Brown allegedly telling police, "My mission is vengeance for the lives. Millions of lives are lost every day: Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, all these places where innocent lives with being taken every single day. So a life for a life."

Sources say Brown was born in the U.S. and has family living in New Jersey.

He was convicted of bank fraud in 2004 and served time in jail. At the time, reports said, the FBI tried unsuccessfully to link the case to fundraising for terrorists in Africa.

Authorities say one of Brown's co-defendants later fled to Somalia to fight with the terrorist group al Shabaab.

And while authorities aren't labeling Brown a terrorist or charging him under federal terrorism statutes, the allegations of his bloody crusade to kill Americans are now raising questions.

AMY JEFFRES, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Based on the statements he's made, I believe you could prove that this was a terrorism offense. But that doesn't necessarily determine whether it should be prosecuted in federal court or state court.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Right now Brown faces state murder charges, which carries a life sentence. And in Washington state he faces the death penalty. And authorities could still bring additional charges.

In his initial court appearance in New Jersey, Brown pleaded not guilty. We did reach out to his attorney and are still awaiting a comment back.

And it's worth that authorities aren't saying that Brown was motivated by a specific terrorist group and these alleged killings happened before the bombing campaign on ISIS -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: All right, Pamela, thank you.

Joining me now is Tom Fuentes. He's the CNN law enforcement analyst and former FBI assistant director. Tom, great to have you here.

I just want to say the victims' names again. Brendan Tevlin, who was 19 years old. He was shot in cold blood in New Jersey. Ahmed Said, 27 years old. Dwone Anderson-Young, 23 years young. And Leroy Henderson, 30 years old. They were in the Seattle area.

If this suspect says that he was doing this out of vengeance for the killing that's going on in Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan, why aren't prosecutors charging him with terrorism?

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Hi, Alisyn.

Well, I think the important thing here is whether the prosecutors could prove that that was his intent at the time he did the killings. Had he expressed that kind of attitude and desire to kill people on behalf of jihad before he killed them, you know, whether it was to co- workers or friends, neighbors, family members, social media, e-mails, telephone calls? Is this an idea that he had already put out and was pretty clear that that would be his intent? Or is he a garden variety psychopath, and he said all this after he was arrested just to get attention or -- or just to cloud the issue?

CAMEROTA: Well, I mean, he did -- apparently, when he was arrested in New Jersey, he was pretty forthcoming with investigators. He said quite clearly, "My mission is my mission between me and my Lord." He said, "My mission is vengeance for the lives. Millions of lives," he says, "are lost every day in Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan, all the places where innocent lives are being taken every single day. So a life for a life," he concludes. So why does he have to show premeditation of his terrorist mindset beforehand?

FUENTES: Well, because anybody can say anything after the fact, and I think that's the problem, is that the use of the terror statutes are -- you know, the prosecutors want to use that when they absolutely have a case that's beyond a reasonable doubt.

So if he never expressed any of that before the killings to anybody else, and he just blurts that out during a police interrogation, he -- you know, it could be argued, then, by the defense that he was saying that because he thought the police wanted to hear something like that and not that he really believed it or that that was the original factual motive for killing those people.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

FUENTES: And he's already facing life in prison in New Jersey and death in Washington state. So it's not like they're not going to be able to do something to him either way.

CAMEROTA: You make an interesting point, Tom, because remember, of course, when John Hinckley Jr. tried to assassinate President Reagan, and he claimed he was doing it to impress the actress Jodie Foster. So it's hard to tell when someone is a terrorist or a psychopath. And when they say that they are killing somebody for some reason, it's hard to know how much stock to put in that. FUENTES: Well, you brought up a good example. In Hinckley's case, he

wrote letters to her at Yale University. He tried to get in touch with her. He expressed his feelings, you know, many times, that he wanted to impress her and was in love with her and all of that. So in his case he did lay a foundation for that being a motive to try to impress her.

In this case we don't know. We just don't know what Brown has done, you know, what he actually did or said to other people prior to the murders or contemporaneous with the murders.

CAMEROTA: Very quickly, Tom, do you believe he is a lone wolf?

FUENTES: I think so far, that's the -- you know, that's the indication, that he was on his own, not part of a group. He hasn't been identified to any other organization. But you know, again, we don't know what we don't know at this point publicly.

CAMEROTA: Yes. Let's hope that investigators get more information about all of this, because so many people in New Jersey and Seattle are interested. Tom Fuentes, thanks so much.

FUENTES: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: More and more U.S. troops are returning home with catastrophic injuries. This week's CNN hero is helping disabled soldiers realize what they can do.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ARTHUR BLOOM, FOUNDER, MUSICORPS: Music is my earliest memory. I never decided to be a professional musician. It's just what I've always done. It feels great to play music. But it's also a mechanism for healing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were on this normal morning patrol, walking down a road. I'd never been hit by an IED before. I felt like I got hit by a wrecking ball. I sat up. My legs were completely gone.

What happens if you don't quite get killed and you don't quite survive? You're somewhere in the middle? I was a shell of a man. Who I was, was gone.

BLOOM: So let's take it right before the melody comes in.

Our organization helps wounded warriors play music and recover their lives. We match the injured troops with professional musicians who come visit at Walter Reed Medical Center and work with them on music projects, learning music, writing, and performing.

We're going to try to incorporate a little more metal.

I'm not a music therapist. I'm a musician. But by injecting music into this space, we can inject life.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Something survived that horrible injury in Afghanistan. And that was my ability to play the guitar. Arthur and his program changed my outlook on what is possible.

BLOOM: Music has no stigma. The folks who work with, when they do music, there's nothing injured about the way they do it. It's just good music.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CAMEROTA: What an incredible story. To learn more about Arthur Bloom and his amazing work, go to CNN/heroes.com.

That's going to do it for us tonight. Thanks for watching. I'll see you back here tomorrow night. "AC 360" starts right now.