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Don Lemon Tonight
New Jersey and Deadly Force; Rapper Charged With Gang Conspiracy; Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah Dies; WSJ Reports Efforts to Retake Mosul from ISIS
Aired January 22, 2015 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: This is CNN TONIGHT, I'm Don Lemon.
Imagine you're Tom Brady for a moment. There's nothing you want more right now than for a deflate-gate to be over with. Right? So is this what you'd say?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Is Tom Brady a cheater?
TOM BRADY, QUARTERBACK, NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS: I don't believe so.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Well, that doesn't really take out the air out of anything, does it?
Tonight, the scandal and what it could cost the Patriots.
Plus, New Jersey Police shoot and kill a man moments after a traffic stop. And the whole thing is caught on dash cam. But does this video tell the whole story? We're going to break it down for you.
Also could this rapper go to prison just for his lyrics about crimes? Crimes he didn't commit? Tiny Dew tells me about his story exclusively coming up.
We got a whole lot to get to tonight but I want to begin with what the Patriots said and didn't say today about those mysteriously deflated footballs.
Joining me now is Bram Weinstein, he's the anchor for ESPN's "SportsCenter." Donte Stallwart who went to Super Bowl XLII with the Patriots, Michael McCann, legal analyst for "Sports Illustrated," and Pete Najarian, a former linebacker and current CNBC "Fast Money" contributor back with me here tonight. You were so good last night we brought you back. You're such an expert.
Let's talk -- we're going to start with -- let's start with what Bill Belichick said this morning. He told us this morning. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL BELICHICK, HEAD COACH, NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS: Obviously, I have learned a lot more about this process in the last three days than I knew or have talked about in the last 40 years coaching this league. I had no knowledge of the various steps involved in the game balls. I have no explanation for what happened. I have nothing. I don't have an explanation. I have no explanation for what happened. I don't have an explanation for what happened. I don't have an explanation for what happened.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Were they accidentally deflated?
BELICHICK: I don't have an explanation for what happened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: I've seen witnesses, I have no recollection, I have no recollection.
I mean, Pete, do you believe him. What do you think?
PETE NAJARIAN, FORMER NFL LINEBACKER: Well, I have no way of explaining that whole thing.
(LAUGHTER)
NAJARIAN: It was really interesting last night. I mean --
LEMON: I think it was.
NAJARIAN: But the denial process that was going on there. And I think that's what we expected. I think when we heard that they were going to have Belichick on, I didn't expect for him to say, hey, we were directly involved in it, and we're sorry about that.
LEMON: Do you think he has knowledge?
NAJARIAN: You know, I still stand by what I said yesterday -- last night, which is that I don't know necessarily the head coach has knowledge. On the other hand, there's somebody else who spoke to me as well that might have some knowledge about it.
LEMON: We'll get to that in a moment.
NAJARIAN: Yes.
LEMON: I think we know who you're talking about. And most -- a lot of people are saying, no one that dreamy could be lying? Right?
NAJARIAN: Right. Yes. There's no way.
LEMON: There's no way. So --
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: Donte, what's it like playing for Belichick and the Patriots?
DONTE STALLWORTH, PLAYED FOR PATRIOTS IN SUPER BOWL 42: It's great. It was one of my greatest opportunities I've had to play in the NFL. And being close with those guys, and understanding what championship football is all about. I had played for some really good organizations over the course of my career, but New England Patriots definitely at the top of that list.
LEMON: What type of coach is he?
STALLWORTH: You know what, he actually has a sense of humor. I know a lot of people don't get that. But he does have a pretty good sense of humor. That clip you saw of him earlier today, that's vintage Bill Belichick. That's what he does, he doesn't like to give out too much information as far as, you know, during the football games or anything pertaining to football. So that was not anything out of the ordinary to the way he answered these questions today.
LEMON: You were a Patriot, I believe, during spygate in 2007. What was that whole ordeal like?
STALLWORTH: It was interesting. I know a lot of the older players, Teddy Bruschi and Mike Vrabel, obviously Tom Brady, those guys were here -- I'm sorry, they were here in New England when they were winning all the Super Bowls so a lot of -- a lot of that criticism fell back on those Super Bowl teams, and those guys felt like they were being slighted for all of the success they had, so that really motivated us. And I think this is going to be the same situation you'll see here when those guys get down to Phoenix. They'll be super motivated play in this game.
LEMON: Did you -- well, super motivated. So you think that this experience, Galvin, is going to galvanize the team more than hurt anything?
STALLWORTH: Yes, well, I mean I can only speak for, in this instance, the New England Patriots. They -- I mean, that's what they do, they live on this type of stuff. They are always able to turn the side of distractions. You'll see what they did when the Aaron Hernandez came up when Randy Moss came to the team, and there was a lot of controversy about how he would ruin, quote, unquote, "the Patriot way," and there was nothing. The same thing with Cory Dillon years before that. So if anybody can handle this, it is the Patriots.
LEMON: So, Michael, of course, neither Belichick nor Brady were under oath today at their press conferences -- at this press conference later in the day when he was asked if he was a cheater, Tom Brady says I don't believe so. I mean, it wasn't very convincing to most people.
Do you believe him and why?
MICHAEL MCCANN, LEGAL ANALYST, "SPORTS ILLUSTRATED": Well, Don, I'm not sure, to be honest. And I think at this point, the NFL hasn't yet made any statement stating that the Patriots have done anything wrong. We've seen rumors that 11 of the 12 footballs may have been underinflated but until there's really a finding of fact, until there's a finding of fault, it's difficult to say whether the Patriots did anything wrong and who on the Patriots may have made the mistake.
So when Tom Brady says he doesn't think he's a cheater, to me, I don't -- I'm not as critical of that statement because I think he's saying, let's wait to see if somebody maybe else on the team did something wrong, and that they would be perhaps guilt by association for him. So I want to give him the benefit of the doubt.
I know there are many saying that they don't believe him. I'm not a former quarterback so I can't speak to what it means to be a quarterback in the huddle and whether or not a quarterback would detect that, and then have a duty to report that the ball doesn't seem as heavy. To me there are a lot of question, and I think it's too early to pin the blame on anyone.
LEMON: But his reputation is very important to him?
MCCANN: Oh, no question. Absolutely. This is a player, Don, that we know that has asked political aspirations after his Patriots' career ends. This is somebody who many expect will perhaps run for the Senate one day. You know, some have said, well, look, other players have gotten into trouble and they become broadcasters. Someone like a Ray Lewis perhaps.
Well, Tom Brady has I think a different goal and that would be to be revered, to be respected, and if it's -- and if it's possible that he's lying, and he's caught, that to me would be very damaging to his reputation.
LEMON: Well, Bram, you thought, you know, Michael said -- you know, maybe, someone else on the team might take some responsibility, but you thought that there was a chance that Brady was going to take responsibility today.
BRAM WEINSTEIN, ANCHOR, SPORTSCENTER, ESPN: I did. I did. I actually thought he might say, I do like the balls to be a little less inflated than the typical full inflation standard, however, I never told anybody to do it below what would be legal in play. That's what I thought he might say today, but that would be kind of a tacit admission of doing something wrong. I also don't think he snuck into the equipment room with a pump and deflated the ball. So, you know --
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: Or with a pen. Or with a pen.
Let's listen to him and then we can talk more, Bram.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRADY: I didn't alter the ball in any way. I have a process that I go through before every game that I go in and I pick the balls that I want to -- the footballs that I want to use for the game. Our equipment guys do a great job of breaking the balls in, and, you know, they have the process that they go through. When I pick those footballs out, at that point, you know, to me, they are perfect.
I don't want anyone touching the balls after that, I don't want anyone rubbing them, you know, putting in the air or taking the air out. To me, those balls are perfect, and that's what I expect when I show up on the field.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Hey, he -- that's the way he wants it. So -- but he never said, I mean, did he say, Bram, I never told them, you know, that I like underinflated balls or to underinflate the balls?
WEINSTEIN: I think that's the question that wasn't asked today, you know. Did you not instruct necessarily to do something illegal here, but have you told them the specifications that you like, and that not necessarily to go below what is the NFL standard to get the team in trouble, and maybe someone took that the wrong way or someone maybe have just made a mistake and underinflated them to a point that got them in trouble.
And we have to mention this, too. They played the Colts earlier in the year. The Colts apparently were aware that this could be an issue and it became an issue later because they thought it might be. So therefore it would suggest that this is the type of ball he likes to play with, and in most cases, it probably is right on the line of being legal, and in this particular case, it probably wasn't. But I'm not going to go far enough to say Tom Brady did it. You know, I just can't --
LEMON: OK.
WEINSTEIN: -- leap to that conclusion that he did that.
LEMON: The best television that you're not seeing, you saw Pete's expression over here when he's talking about those things.
(LAUGHTER)
NAJARIAN: Good stuff, man.
LEMON: OK. So go along.
NAJARIAN: Let's do it.
LEMON: We've got two balls here.
NAJARIAN: All right.
LEMON: One is normal sized, inflated, right. The normal PSI, whatever it's supposed to be.
NAJARIAN: Legal. Yes.
LEMON: Was supposed to be legal. And one is underinflated. I'm not going to tell you which one.
NAJARIAN: OK. And I'm going to catch these?
LEMON: So head over there. You're going to catch them.
NAJARIAN: All right. LEMON: And then -- you're going to catch. All right.
NAJARIAN: All right.
LEMON: All right. Keep both of them. Catch --
NAJARIAN: All right. Hold on.
LEMON: All right. So grab which one. Grab which one you think -- tell me which one you think is the under --
NAJARIAN: There's no doubt it's this one.
LEMON: OK.
NAJARIAN: Ball one.
LEMON: After the break, we'll tell you if you're right. Don't go anywhere.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: All right. We're back now talking deflate-gate, ball-gate, whatever you want to call it, ball palooza, ball gozi, whatever.
Back with me now Bram Weinstein, Donte Stallworth, Michael McCann and Pete Najarian.
OK, so before the break.
NAJARIAN: Yes.
LEMON: Threw you two footballs.
NAJARIAN: You did.
LEMON: Which one is the -- which one is underinflated?
NAJARIAN: No doubt in my mind it's this one.
LEMON: Let me see if you're right.
NAJARIAN: Fully filled.
LEMON: We marked it. This is like cheating in cards. We marked it. Yes, you're right. So then was he -- when they said that you can't tell the difference, I think it was Brady.
NAJARIAN: Yes.
LEMON: That said well, you can't tell the difference. Was he lying? You can tell the difference.
NAJARIAN: I think there's no doubt he can tell the difference. We know what he prefers. The equipment staff, they all know what he prefers when he wants to grab the football to throw it during a football game. He works with these guys, he's got a great relationship with all the guys in the equipment staff.
LEMON: That's what I --
NAJARIAN: It's always --
LEMON: What's that relationship like?
NAJARIAN: What people don't know, Donte knows. I mean, when you're in the locker room, and quarterbacks are always hanging around the locker room, even when they don't have to be there, they are there.
LEMON: Right.
NAJARIAN: And when there's meeting -- there is a break between meetings, what they do they do, they hang around in the equipment staff, they hang around playing games, playing cards, talking and having a great time. While they're doing that, they're talking about everything football-related. The equipment staff knows everything Tom wants. His uniform, everything from the footballs to his helmet.
LEMON: OK.
NAJARIAN: Helmet pressure, everything.
LEMON: All right. Stand by. Before you answer Donte, here is Brady again today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRADY: I feel like I've always played within the rules. I would never do anything to break the rules. I believe in fair play and I respect the league and, you know, everything that they're doing to try to create a very competitive playing field for all the NFL teams.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK. What? What? What? What are --
(LAUGHTER)
What are you laughing at? You guys are saying tuck rule. What --
NAJARIAN: Tuck rule is -- Tom Brady has been involved in a lot of things over the last 10 years since he's a quarterback in the NFL. A lot of different issues have come up where there's rules have been made.
LEMON: OK. OK. So speaking of -- I want to get to Troy Aikman, but let's talk about his reputation because there are people who would say he's not as nice a guy as people like to make him out to be. He's actually not a nice guy. I don't know. Richard Sherman said that. Let's listen to Richard Sherman.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD SHERMAN, CORNERBACK, SEATTLE SEAHAWKS: People somehow get a skewed view of Tom Brady that he is a clean-cut, does everything right, and never says a bad word to anyone. And we know him to be otherwise.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Bram, is that true?
WEINSTEIN: I mean, he trash talks, I mean, that's clear. You could see. If you watch him, and even earlier this year, he got mad at a network because they showed him cursing on TV, and he doesn't want to be shown cursing on TV. So I don't know about bad guy. I mean, I don't know him well enough to even determine whether he's a bad guy or not.
LEMON: Donte, you should know, you played with him. What do you think?
STALLWORTH: Yes, I think -- I think Brady is a man of good character and of integrity. I think the thing that you listen to Richard Sherman, what he's talking about, is that on-the-field stuff. And I tell people all the time, like Tom Brady gets fired up, he'll headbutt you, he'll -- like, he curses a lot. Like he -- he trash talks the players, the other players on the time. Like he likes that. That's what gets him fired up.
So that's what Richard Sherman is talking about. I strongly doubt he's talking about off of the field. Off of the field, anyone that's bumped into Brady, they'll tell you he's one of the nicest guys. He's a really good guy, but on the field, he is a mean guy on the field.
LEMON: I want to say, though, what's wrong with that?
NAJARIAN: Ain't nothing. He's a competitor. I think Donte is saying the same thing.
LEMON: You should be trash talking everybody. Yes.
NAJARIAN: He's competitor. Yes. On the field, it's all about football.
LEMON: I want you guys to listen to what Troy Aikman had to say this morning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TROY AIKMAN, FORMER NFL QUARTERBACK: It's obvious to me that Tom Brady had something to do with this. For the balls to have been deflated, that doesn't happen unless a quarterback wants that to happen, I can assure you of that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK. A quick reaction from everyone. Did he know? Did he know, Michael McCann?
MCCANN: I want to wait until we hear more facts. To me, I'm a lawyer, I'm very cautious with pointing guilt until all of the information is in. I understand what Troy Aikman just said. But that's the view of one quarterback. There have been many other quarterbacks who have played in this league and some of their comments in recent days are much less incriminating of Brady.
LEMON: OK. All right. It's got to be quick. Who's laughing? Was that Donte? Someone was laughing.
Donte, why are you laughing?
STALLWORTH: Well, just from the lawyer sentiment, I thought that was pretty funny.
(LAUGHTER)
STALLWORTH: No. Yes, I mean, every quarterback is different, especially the guys that are playing now. There was a "New York Times" write-up about Eli Manning, Aaron Rodgers said he likes the ball more inflated. So every quarterback has their own ways.
LEMON: Yes.
STALLWORTH: Or the way they want the balls handled. So I'm inclined to believe him.
LEMON: Look, I'm just saying this quick. I'm not going up against Donte, right. He's a football player. And I'm not going to put -- he can take as much time as he wants.
Bram, what do you say?
WEINSTEIN: Does he like them underinflated, yes. Does -- did he know they were below NFL standard? I don't know that.
LEMON: Pete?
NAJARIAN: That's a great answer. Below NFL standards, I don't know about that either.
LEMON: Yes.
NAJARIAN: Underinflated towards 12.5, absolutely.
LEMON: Legal guy. Real quickly, seriously. Nothing -- what can happen from this if anything?
MCCANN: Well, I think nothing in the short term. I would be very surprised -- you know, some have said the Patriots should be banned from the Super Bowl. The league constitution does not allow for that, and I would be very surprised if Bill Belichick is suspended before the Super Bowl. That would be pretty disruptive. I imagine there wouldn't be many sponsors of the NFL who would like that.
LEMON: OK.
MCCANN: But I think going forward if fault is found, the Patriots could clearly lose draft picks, they could be fined. But I would be very surprised if we see the NFL take any action.
LEMON: That's got to be it.
MCCANN: Until after the Super Bowl.
LEMON: Thank you, Mike. I've gotten myself in enough trouble with the producers and the people from the back row.
(LAUGHTER)
The people who handle the balls and everything here.
Thank you very much, everyone.
When we come right back, New Jersey police shoot a man during a traffic stop, but is there more to this video that meets the eye?
And my exclusive with a rapper who could go to jail just for his lyrics about crime.
We'll be back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Welcome back. Investigation under way in New Jersey into the shooting death of a man by a police officer during a traffic stop. The incident caught on video by the patrol car's dash cam.
We're going to break it down to answer the questions, was the shooting justified?
Joining me now Tom Verni. He's a former New York City police detective and police academy instructor, and also with me, Midwin Charles, she's a criminal defense and civil trial attorney.
Thanks to both of you. All right. Let's talk about taking a look at the dash cam video. I'll start with you, Tom. This appears to be routine. Let's watch it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, how are you all doing?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How you doing?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good. Hey, Bridgeton Police. The reason we pulled you over, you went right through that stop sign back there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where at?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right on South Pine Street. Hey, you got a driver's license?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. I got my driver's license.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's up, man? Do you want to grab it for me? (CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no. Show me your hands. Show me your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) hands.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, Tom, the exchange goes from, how y'all doing, to show me your -- really it escalates in 25 seconds.
TOM VERNI, FORMER NEW YORK CITY POLICE DETECTIVE AND POLICE ACADEMY INSTRUCTOR: Yes.
LEMON: What is this officer thinking as he -- as he approaches this vehicle?
VERNI: Well, one thing you have to understand about car stops is that there is no such thing as a routine car stops. Car stops are one of the most dangerous jobs that police go on.
LEMON: As he is approaching, what is he thinking?
VERNI: This is like, he's approaching a car that committed a -- moving violation, he has asked him to comply with certain lawful orders, and then, you know, he sees a gun in the glove compartment, so right off the bat he's gone from --
LEMON: Why go to the passenger side then instead of -- is that routine and then we don't see the other officer come in. Where is he?
VERNI: Well, different police department do car stops in different manners, so in New Jersey, in this particular township this is maybe the way they're trained to do car stops. Well, so it's a little bit safer than having to do it on the driver's side. So they're maybe trained to go along the passenger side as supposed to do it in the driver's side of the traffic.
LEMON: And then you see -- you see the driver put his hands up.
All right, now let's take a look at the second video here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Show me your hands. Don't (EXPLETIVE DELETED) move. Don't you (EXPLETIVE DELETED) move. Don't you (EXPLETIVE DELETED) move.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get him out of the car, Rog. We've got a gun in his glove compartment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don't you (EXPLETIVE DELETED) move. Don't you (EXPLETIVE DELETED) move. Show me your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) hands. Show your hands. I'm telling you, I'm going to shoot you. You're going to be (EXPLETIVE DELETED) dead. I'm telling you. You reach for something, you're going to be (EXPLETIVE DELETED) dead. I'm telling you. I'm telling you. Keep your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) hands right there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: All right. So he appears to take what is a gun, right, what appears to be a gun out of the glove box, and repeatedly says, show me your hands, show me your hands, but still, you know, the hands are not out of the window, right? He still keeps saying show me your hands. So what's happening in this clip?
VERNI: Well, I mean, he sees the gun in the glove compartment, and my experience is that whenever there is usually one gun there tends to be many times another gun. So just the fact that I've seen one gun in the glove compartment is going to raise my level tremendously, and I'm going to think that there's a good possibility there's another gun possibly on either one of those guys if not somewhere else in the car.
LEMON: OK. I want both of you to listen to this. Midwin, to you especially, because it's very faint, right. And I just want to get his words right. He said, I ain't reaching for nothing, bro. I ain't got reason to reach for nothing.
Let's listen to it again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm telling you, if you reach for something, you're going to be (EXPLETIVE DELETED) dead. I'm telling you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I ain't reaching for nothing, bro.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm telling you. Keep your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) hands right there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Make a difference in determining whether the shooting was justified, Midwin?
MIDWIN CHARLES, CRIMINAL DEFENSE AND CIVIL TRIAL ATTORNEY: It does to me. One, you have his statement, but two, you also have, in my perspective, a situation where the immediate threat has been neutralized. Once this police officer took that gun out of the car, in my opinion, yes, he went from zero to 100 very quickly, but I think that he should have exercised some discernment. In other words, hey, listen, perhaps this threat is neutralized, and I can perhaps dial it down or --
LEMON: But how does he know --
CHARLES: -- reassess the situation.
LEMON: How does he know there's not another gun in his car?
CHARLES: Well, that's my point. My point is reassess. Whenever you have your gun out and you're drawn, you're ready to shoot, right? You're ready -- you're ready to kill. VERNI: You've got to be prepared for the fact that they could
potentially have another gun there.
CHARLES: Exactly.
VERNI: But the threat is not -- in a police situation a threat is not going to be completely satisfied until both of these guys are out of the car and in handcuffs.
CHARLES: I understand that. I understand that but my point is you have to keep assessing. You cannot simply go from zero to 100, and stay at 100 if the circumstances have changed.
LEMON: OK, so, what she's saying. She said reassure. But are you thinking, does it make a difference that he is saying, I'm not going to do anything, I have no reason to -- does that make a difference to you as an officer?
CHARLES: And the gun was removed from the car.
VERNI: Why would there be any reason to believe it?
CHARLES: Because the gun was removed from the car.
VERNI: As it turns out that this guy is a career criminal. He shot at an officer when he was 15 years old.
(CROSSTALK)
CHARLES: So he shouldn't be prejudged because of that.
VERNI: Absolutely you can.
CHARLES: I don't think he should.
VERNI: He spent 13 years in jail for that.
CHARLES: He still -- but he still has a civil right to not like -- kind of be like shot dead.
LEMON: But that he knew -- the officer knew him, the officer knew his history. The officer called him Jerome. The officer had arrested him a year before. He had been convicted of shooting at troopers before.
CHARLES: Yes.
LEMON: So -- and if the officer knew that, why wouldn't that be in the back of his head?
CHARLES: Actually if --
(CROSSTALK)
VERNI: I'm sure that was in the back of his head.
CHARLES: But if the officer knew that, then what he was doing then is prejudging him.
LEMON: OK. Let's --
CHARLES: And you have -- and that is wrong.
LEMON: OK. Let's look at the third tape.
CHARLES: That wrong to do.
LEMON: Then we'll talk more.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm telling you, keep your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) hands right there. Hey, Jerome, if you reach for something, you're going to be (EXPLETIVE DELETED) dead. He's reaching, he's reaching. Show me your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) hands.
No, you're not. No, you're not. No, you're not. Don't you (EXPLETIVE DELETED) move.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So what do you make of that. He tell him, he forecasts to him, if you move, if you don't show me your hands, if you get out of the car, I'm going to shoot you, you're going to be dead. He tells him exactly, and then he doesn't do what the officer says.
If the officer is saying, don't move, and he has his hands up, and he is saying, I'm not moving, I'm not moving, I am not moving, he's still not complying with the officer, even if his hands are up. He's approaching the officer.
CHARLES: Right.
LEMON: That's not complying even if his hands are up.
CHARLES: Right. It's not complying. But you know, I always go back to whether or not that police officer feels that he is facing an immediate threat.
LEMON: Yes.
CHARLES: Whenever a police officer unloads their gun into someone they have to make sure --
LEMON: Then he died. He died.
CHARLES: He died. He died. And I don't know if your viewers saw this particular part of the clip, but at the end when he does come out both of his hands are up.
LEMON: Right.
CHARLES: See that? Both of his hands are up.
LEMON: So as you're looking at that, in that moment, does it --
VERNI: Well, his hands are coming out from his body.
CHARLES: But both --
(CROSSTALK)
VERNI: They're not -- they're not up like this.
CHARLES: Yes, they are.
LEMON: But as he -- as he's coming up with his hands up the officer in the shooting --
CHARLES: Yes, they are. They absolutely are. Look at -- those are two hands up.
VERNI: You can replay. He's coming -- he's coming right.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Let's play clip three again, the one we've just played, play it again, and we'll look at it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm telling you, keep your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) hands right there. Hey, Jerome, if you reach for something, you're going to be (EXPLETIVE DELETED) dead. He's reaching, he's reaching. Show me your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) hands.
No, you're not. No, you're not. No, you're not. Don't you (EXPLETIVE DELETED) move.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VERNI: You know what I find interesting about this whole scenario is well, you see while the driver is clearly complying. He's got his hands out the window. He's been listening to everything this officer is saying. This guy has done nothing but -- not listening to what he's saying and both officers are away out of the car. And this officer clearly knows who might --
LEMON: My question is in that moment in time you're saying his hands are up between the shooting and the hands are up, does the officer have enough time to discern whether he is unarmed or whether he's coming at him?
CHARLES: He should. That's --
LEMON: But, I mean, easy to the say it now.
(CROSSTALK)
CHARLES: But when -- but when we are talking about --
LEMON: Yeah.
CHARLES: Life or death situations, we have to demand that of our police officers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But he -- he's not going to take that extra second.
LEMON: I got -- I got to go. I want to say this is what the New Jersey Use of Force Policy says, "A law enforcement officer may use deadly force when the officer reasonably believes such action is immediately necessary to protect the officer or another person from imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
LEMON: Was that --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I think that was the story. The wall (ph) based on what we've seen on the video and based on this also knowing the history of this particular person. And that he has attempted to shoot at Officer before him (ph) did 13 years ago.
LEMON: OK. Do you said justified?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I --
LEMON: Do you say not justified.
CHARLES: I say it is not justified, not at all.
LEMON: Thank you, Tom Borney. (ph) Thank you very much (inaudible). Please stay with me. Up next, a rapper charged with gang conspiracy. It was gonna stay here of gang conspiracy. Prosecutors want to put him behind bars for his lyrics.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRANDON "TINY DOO" DUNCAN, RAPPER, HIP HOP ARTIST: (Inaudible)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: His name is Tiny Doo, but he is facing big prison time, life behind bars. Tiny Doo is a stage name of California rapper Brandon Duncan. He's accused of criminal street gang conspiracy. Prosecutors alleged the evidence is in his lyrics. In a moment Tiny Doo is gonna me exclusively. But first, here's CNN Alexandra Field.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DUNCAN: You can get a full clip, my (beep) 'bout to bulls (beep) and make your top disappear like an illusion.
ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Gangster rap can be ugly and offensive, but is it enough to implicate rapper Tiny Doo on felony charges. Investigators (inaudible) allegedly gang related shootings. But prosecutors aren't claiming he actually shot anyone, the smoking gun, his album cover, No Safety. A San Diego prosecutor says we're not just talking about a CD of anything, of love songs. One of the lyrics is putting the gun to your head with no safety. A lyric he calls a direct correlation to what the gang has been doing.
DUNCAN: Ain't no safety on this pistol I'm doing...
FIELD: Charged with nine counts of criminal street gang conspiracy, Tiny Doo could face 25 years to life in prison if convicted. The complaint, based on a little known statute making it illegal to gain from gang activities, alleges he did willfully promote, further, assist and benefit from criminal conduct by members of that gang. The prosecution's theory, Tiny Doo and fellow gang members increased their stature, respect and fear from rival gang members, following a rush of shooting in San Diego. And that would have raised Tiny Doo's image as a rapper too.
FIELD: How much does this have to do with the CD, whether it's the album cover or the lyrics or the sales?
MARK GERAGOS, LEGAL ANALYST: I think that there's probably a component of this where the district attorney was to send a message that you shouldn't glorify or glamour -- glamorize the gang life or the gang activity. The problem is that -- you gonna run straight head on into the first amendment.
FIELD: That's the case that the defense will make. Tiny Doo's attorneys argue his legal exert no different from those other controversial artist, even if they're graphic, even if they're violent.
DUNCAN: You can find me on the ave with a hammer on me. Shaking all these snitching (beep) on the camera phones...
FIELD: Tiny Doo, real name Brandon Duncan he has no criminal record. The defense said he has no knowledge of any of the shootings. He'll back in court, tomorrow.
Alexandra Field, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: Alright. Joining me now, exclusively is Brandon "Tiny Doo" Duncan, also his attorneys with us as well, Brian Watkins and back with me of course, Midwin Charles, I want to go over this. Brandon, up until now, you have had no criminal record, you were just released on bail, and you are due in court tomorrow facing very serious charges that could bring life in prison, how you doing?
DUNCAN: Yeah. Well, I'm doing all right now that I'm -- you know, back home with my family, and you know, my fiancee and everything so, I'm alright -- for now.
LEMON: For now.
DUNCAN: Yeah. LEMON: So you are one of 14 men charged in connection with...
DUNCAN: Yeah.
LEMON: The string of nine shootings, and are you an active member...
DUNCAN: Yes.
LEMON: Of any gang or have any knowledge of shootings that you're -- that the shootings that you are being charged with?
DUNCAN: No, I'm not an active gang member of a gang, and I know nothing about a shooting whatsoever -- nothing.
BRIAN WATKINS, BRANDON "TINY DOO" DUNCAN'S ATTORNEY: And you know, Don, what happens is that the district attorney even admits that Mr. Duncan had no knowledge of the shootings, let alone any involvement in the shootings. They are going on the theory that his rap lyrics actually encourage this type of behavior, these types of shootings. The funny thing about it is, is that his album was released in 2014 and the shootings occurred in 2013.
LEMON: Yeah, let's put the --his album up with a CD -- and because of -- again, he is a gangster rapper. And on the CD -- right on the cover, you will see a revolver and bullets. So let's take a listen and then we will talk about what your attorney just said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DUNCAN: You can get a full clip, my (beep) 'bout to bulls (beep) and make your top disappear like an illusionist.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK. So, are you -- do you deny that your lyrics encourage or promote violence of any kind?
DUNCAN: I don't think that they promote any, I mean, I'm not saying I like -- you know, to go this or do that. I'm not -- I'm just painting a picture man of -- of urban street life, like -- that's it. Like it's -- the studio is my canvas basically, you know what I mean, like. I'm just painting a picture actually, I'm not telling anybody to go out and kill somebody or you go do something. I'm not doing anything differently than the gangs say, per se --
LEMON: OK. So, but here's the prosecutors are saying that -- that somehow you benefited from the crimes committed by other gang members as we well, as elevated your stature as a gangster rapper and that's kind of the issue here, do you agree with that?
DUNCAN: No, I don't agree with that. I get up and go to work everyday. I mean, how am I benefiting from what's somebody is doing, right?
LEMON: Yeah.
DUNCAN: I'm not -- I'm not a big -- I didn't sell -- I haven't sold a million records or anything, and if you want to -- you'll be able to say, people can go out and listen to the album for themselves and see if it does make you wanna -- go kill somebody or something like that. And you can go check the album out at siccness.net, s-i-c-c-n-e-s-s dot net. And see for yourself. Listen for yourself.
LEMON: And you're -- you tell me -- that's a good pitch. That's a good pitch, right here on CNN.
DUNCAN: I mean, you know --
LEMON: You're -- you're not the first rapper to face criminal charges due to explicit lyrics and your music. Do you feel that the rap music or rap industry may somehow unfairly be targeted to racial or social or economic factors?
DUNCAN: Of course. I feel like this whole case is -- racial. It's 33 black men accused of doing this stuff -- there's girls from gangs too, why didn't they pick up any girls. You know what I mean? It is -- it's crazy.
WATKINS: You know one thing that needs to be pointed out, is that the shooting are unsolved, so they don't actually know who did the shootings, rather -- or choosing to focus their resources on taking Brandon Duncan and his rap music off the streets. And prosecuting the person says the word gun, rather than going after at the person who actually who uses the gun.
LEMON: That's what I want to ask you about this law -- is part of them an anti-gang initiative package passed by California voters back in 2000, is Brandon's case a correct application of this law, do you believe?
WATKINS: No, it is not. And you know that law was brought to the legal analyst back in -- in 2000, and the legal analyst rejected it and said it is completely unconstitutional. And what the District Attorneys Association did was take that law and put it under prop 21 to and took it to the voters, under the guise of stopping out gang violence. Of course the voters gonna say, well, I'm not for gang violence, so sure I will go for that, not knowing the ramifications of the law. But this law, the way they are applying it now is basically, prosecuting Brandon Duncan who he admit has no involvement or knowledge of the shootings...
LEMON: Yeah.
WATKINS: Because he said the word gang -- gun or run the word gun and leaving the person who actually fired the shots still out on the streets.
LEMON: Midwin, do you think believe it is a misplaced application of the law in the court?
CHARLES: I do think it's a misplaced application of the law, and listen, I understand what these prosecutors are trying to do. They are trying to stamp out gang violence in a community that wants that to be done. But I just don't know whether this is the best vehicle to do that, because one of the theories that they have is that this rapper benefited financially -- LEMON: Yeah, They're saying that the law --
CHARLES: From this gang activity.
LEMON: The law is on to prevent gang members from profiting off of criminal acts so, our artist responsible --
CHARLES: But where is the criminal act, is the question...
LEMON: Yeah.
CHARLES: Because as his attorney just said, the prosecutors themselves do not say that he had anything to do with those shootings, nor does he have any knowledge of the shootings. So, when you look at this from conspiracy perspective, usually, generally, the conspiracies require someone who had active involvement or some direct knowledge, and you don't have that here.
LEMON: Brandon, you are gonna continue to rap the way you are doing or are you gonna change anything?
DUNCAN: I mean, I will -- I mean -- freedom of speech, I would love to continue to rap but, you know these people how you scared to do anything around here. So it's like -- I feel like I'm trying to eradicate black men like -- not eradicate gangs. I feel that they're trying to eradicate black men -- that's how I feel. Because, you know, because there are 33 black men in jail, not anybody else, so it's weird.
LEMON: And you know what's funny about that, is that the hearing -- the whole community came to support Brandon Duncan...
DUNCAN: Yes.
WATKINS: And the other gentlemen that are locked up with him, so I don't know if the community itself is in behind this.
LEMON: OK, Tiny Doo, thank you. Brian Watkins, thank you. Midwin Charles, of course thank you as well. Appreciate all of you joining us here on CNN.
DUNCAN: Thank you sir.
LEMON: Meanwhile, in the Middle East, the U.S. ambassador for Iraq says 6,000 ISIS fighters have been killed in battle, and that includes half of the top command. With that hasn't stop ISIS campaign, ISIS campaign of terror, threatening to kill two Japanese hostages if they don't get $200 million ransom by tomorrow. We are live in Tokyo, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Here's Breaking News tonight, so you hear about it, it's out of the Middle East. A changing of the guard for America's top ally in the region, thrones of Saudi's gather to Mecca to mourn the death of King Abdullah at the age of 90. President Barack Obama prays who he had called the kings steadfast and passionate belief in the importance of the U.S.-Saudi relationship. And Vice President Biden, will attend the funeral. Meantime, in Iraq, The Wall Street Journal reports an effort to retake Mosul from ISIS control. The U.S. and Iraq reportedly, beginning preparations for an assault by this summer, but ISIS is not slowing its reign of terror, threatening to kill two Japanese hostages in just hours, if the country doesn't pay $200 million ransom.
To CNN's Will Ripley, now live for us in Tokyo. Hello, will. We're just hours away from the ISIS deadline. So far, the Japanese government has not been able to contact ISIS, what do we know right now?
WILL RIPLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We know Don, that the deadline is exactly two hours from now. As you mentioned the Japanese government while putting a lot of messages through intermediaries, just confirmed to us minutes ago, that they have not yet opened up a direct line of communication with ISIS. This story of course is dominating the news. A lot of the local papers here are choosing to focus now, less on the ISIS video itself and more on the lines of the two hostages, including this man that you see here Kenji Goto, a journalist who is dedicated to covering the stories of children who are victims of ISIS. Living in this war zone, on whose lives have been turned upside down, and also the story of Haruna Yukawa, who is trying to overcomes some great personal struggles and start a new life in the Middle East. There's growing here -- here Don, as we get closer to deadline that these -- these men may not have much more time left, which is why there's a sense of urgency right now, for the Japanese government to get in touch with ISIS and try to buy them more time, see what kind of a deal can be worked out.
LEMON: Will the Japanese pay the ransom, Will?
RIPLEY: That is the questions that have -- we have been asking and others been asking, the Japanese government will not answer directly. They say they won't yield to the demands of the terrorists. The demands of course that they not contribute to the coalition against ISIS, Japan says their -- their contribution $200 million to help fight ISIS, that stands. But they won't say, definitively that they won't pay a ransom, of course, $200 million is a sum of money that will be impossible to pull together. But, there's been speculation in the past and other hostage cases that under the table deals, multi- million dollars deals have been worked out to secure the release of Japanese hostages. We don't know if that's the plan in this case, the question, but what if anything is Japan willing to give and what was ISIS be willing to take. The time is really running out here Don.
LEMON: Will Ripley in Tokyo, thank you, Will. Let's talk now with CNN'S national security analyst Juliette Kayyem, she is a former assistant secretary of Homeland Security, also CNN's intelligence and security analyst Bob Baer, a former CIA operative. Bob, ISIS hasn't typically announced its specific time frame like this hostage situation. What it does tell you?
BOB BAER, CNN INTELLIGENCE AND SECURITY ANALAYST: I would -- I can't understand, Don is why the Japanese can't get in touch with them, all sorts of people had negotiate with ISIS successfully, the French Government. Number one, various NGO's who paid money to get people back. So, I -- I just can't figure out what the drag is here, but these people, as I understand the hostage takers are perfectly capable of carrying out this -- they are showing no pity, and I've talked to people who'd negotiates with ISIS and they said, they're -- they're psychotics at best. So, I -- you know, I fear for the lives of these two Japanese men.
LEMON: Juliette, I want to turn to the Breaking News with you tonight, Saudi Arabia, King Abdullah, has died and we know he had been greatly owe. Prince Salman was appointed to the new King -- now that we know that Vice President Joe Biden says he's paying his respect, he's actually not attending, his paying his respect, as part of the U.S. delegations. What are the ramifications here?
JULITTE KAYYEM, FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY: Well, I think isolation there's not many ramifications, the kingdom has been preparing for King Abdullah's death for some time. The benefit of a monarchy is that there's -- we know whose next, or someone's chosen next. The problem is, what's going around Saudi Arabia, obviously, the news from Yemen, today, about the government is essentially falling, is not a good news for Saudi Arabia, just giving the proximity and the problems they have with internal terrorism. And then of course, as our bigger issue is the falling price of oil -- King Abdullah's death, cause a raise in the price of oil, but the Saudi Kingdom is in -- oil war right now. Essentially, with the global market and is -- hurting not as much as other gulf states, but it's hurting.
LEMON: Yeah, let's talk a little bit more about the turmoil in Yemen, Bob. Saudi Arabia is a key play in the region and the key ally. So what does it mean for the counter terror effort in protecting American interest especially in life of what's happening in Yemen.
BAER: Well, without a government, we don't have anybody to help us target the drones. I mean, you can watch these camps from overhead, but you know there's, that involves signature strikes are not very effective there inaccurate usually. So, without a government, we got nobody to talk to and right now, I would imagine American officials aren't leaving the embassy, there's a drawdown of the potential evacuation. So this is a huge setback in terms of going after Al-Qaeda in Arabian Peninsula.
LEMON: But should the U.S. -- should U.S. -- should U.S. intervene, because in Yemen the president, the prime minister, the cabinets have resigned. The rebels have assumed power. Should the U.S. intervene here?
BAER: No, not at all. If the country is fragmenting, it's -- a rough terrain there, we can't send troops, and this is a full-fledged war. You know, there's not much you can do about it, it's nobody's fault, the country just dissolved. I mean, we can't blame this on President Obama or the United States or anybody else. But Yemen is always been on the verge of chaos, and now it has finally come apart, but nonetheless, we are facing serious security problems. And as you said, Don, with Saudi Arabia, this is always been though weak underbelly of Saudi Arabia -- Yemen, and it could cause them problems. Now, whether they decide to invade Yemen or not, the huge step -- but, you know, it is not beyond possibility. LEMON: Juliette, I want to ask you if the U.S. should --
KAYYEM: Can I --
LEMON: Could intervene here. I saw you shaking your head -- should they?
KAYYEM: Well, I -- I completely agree with Bob on two counts. One is -- one is, it's a fool's errand to think of any military action in Yemen right now, it's a -- was barely a country before this, and are unified country before this. But I also agree -- this is a big deal. I know we've been talking about terrorism and ISIS in France and the attacks. In terms of counter-terrorism efforts, in terms of intelligence efforts, Yemen has been an ally with quotes around it. You know, it's a difficult country to deal with and its demise or fracturing -- is harmful to us and harmful to our intelligence efforts and then obviously harmful to the region. The coincidence of what happened in Yemen today was the death of King Abdullah -- is not good news for both the short term and may be for the long term.
LEMON: Yeah.
KAYYEM: Depending on if Yemen can -- can sort of unify around somebody or something.
LEMON: The coalition, Bob, fighting ISIS has now killed an estimated 6,000 fighters, plus the head of Scentcom is telling the Wall Street Journal that the U.S. and Iraq are planning an assault to retake the city of Mosul by this summer, a plan that our own Barbara Starr reported on in November. Is this a sign that the tide maybe turning in our favor?
BAER: I don't think it's -- I think that Iraq is fragmented -- you know, permanently. Because it is not just ISIS that is Al Anbar province, was what their mainly based.
LEMOMN: Right.
BAER: You've got a lot of the tribes are supporting them, because they are afraid of the government Baghdad, which is essentially, a Shia (ph) government supported by Iran, and they are afraid that the Shia (ph) are gonna send the deaths squads Sunni areas so, you gonna see a push back. This is not gonna be easy -- just like the rest of the Middle East, it's coming -- it's coming apart.
LEMON: Yeah, I got to go. Thank you very much, Bob. Thank you, Juliette. I appreciated. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: I'm Don Lemon, thanks for watching. Here's "AC360."
