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Don Lemon Tonight
Obama Says U.S. Not at War with Islam; ISIS Selling Organs?; SEALs Together on Two Tours in Iraq; Justice Department May Sue Ferguson PD; Ferguson Police Department Accused of Targeting Minorities; Beware Extreme Road Rage
Aired February 18, 2015 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Battlefield comrade of the "American Sniper." We'll hear from a retired Navy SEAL who served two tours of duty in Iraq with Chris Kyle. He also co-starred in "American Sniper" with Bradley Cooper and taught the actor who's up for an Oscar on Sunday how to fire a weapon.
This is CNN TONIGHT, I'm Don Lemon.
From the battlefields of Iraq to the fight against ISIS, President Barack Obama addresses a summit aimed at combating extremism denouncing ISIS as desperate for legitimacy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They are not religious leaders, they're terrorists.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And is ISIS sinking to a new level of barbarism. A top Iraqi official claims the group may be harvesting the organs of its victims and trafficking the body parts as a way to finance its murderous operations.
Here at home, breaking news to tell you about this evening. The Justice Department threatening to sue the Ferguson, Missouri, police department alleging a pattern of discriminatory practices and demanding changes in tactics. We're going to have the very latest on that.
And boxing great Evander Holyfield takes the ring against a new opponent. Road rage. We'll talk to him about that.
We have a lot of ground to cover here tonight on CNN TONIGHT. Let's begin, though with the president's address to the summit on extremism.
CNN senior White House correspondent Jim Acosta joins us with the very latest.
So, Jim, the president is taking a lot of heat over what some say is his failure to use the word Islamic extremist for the summit.
What did he say about that? JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Don. That was
the big headline today. President Obama defended his decision to stay away from terms like Islamic extremism and Islamic terrorism because he said he doesn't want to give groups like ISIS and al Qaeda any Muslim street cred by somehow referring to these groups as religious figures.
The president pointed out that Muslims are the victims of ISIS much more than people from other religious groups. He also noted the young Muslims who are recently killed in that high profile murder case down in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. The president then said to people of the Muslim -- Muslim faith, and I quote, "We offer our love and we offer our support."
But his biggest applause line, Don, came during the summit when he rejected the critics who say he's taken a soft approach in describing groups like ISIS. Here's what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: The terrorists do not speak for over a billion Muslims who reject their hateful ideology. They no more represent Islam than any mad man who kills innocents in the name of God represents Christianity or Judaism or Buddhism and Hinduism. No religion is responsible for terrorism. People are responsible for violence and terrorism.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ACOSTA: But the president was also trying to strike a balance at this summit for countering violent extremism. He also said that Muslim leaders in the U.S. need to do more to push back on this narrative out there that there is a clash of civilizations going on between people of the Muslim faith and other faiths, and White House officials, we should point out, they do know that this nuanced argument coming from the president is causing controversy.
White House Press Secretary Josh Earnest during briefing earlier today conceded to me that they have taken flack on this, but they say that they're worth it -- that that is worth is. Meanwhile, I should point out the president is going to give another speech at the summit, although this one will be over at the State Department tomorrow morning.
Don, it's going to be before hundreds of foreign officials who have gathered here from around the world. The president will be taking some of those lessons he learned at the summit today which really dealt with some of these pilot programs in Boston, Los Angeles, Minneapolis-St. Paul, where there are learning lessons about how to bridge this divide between law enforcement and the Muslim communities. He's going to try to apply that to sort of a global stage.
But also, Don, I'm hearing from officials that he's going to try to follow up on that U.N. General Assembly speech that he gave last September when he was talking about this global challenge of taking on violent extremism, trying to go to the root causes in Muslim communities around the world, and we'll hear more about that tomorrow -- Don.
LEMON: Thank you very much, Jim Acosta, at the White House this evening.
Let's bring in Fareed Zakaria now, the host of the "FAREED ZAKARIA, GPS" right here on CNN.
So, Fareed, good evening, by the way. The president says that terrorists are desperate for legitimacy and by calling them Islamic is giving them that legitimacy.
What do you think of that?
FAREED ZAKARIA, HOST, FAREED ZAKARIA GPS: I think he's basically right. Look, people are getting all head up. His critics are saying well, if he can't name the problem properly, we're not going to be able to fight it. So let's say we name it, let's say we call it radical Islam, Islamic extremism, you choose whatever phrase you want. Then what? Are we going to drop more bombs? Are there going to be more drone strikes? Are there going to be more special ops?
He is doing all the stuff you do at the military level to fight it.
LEMON: So you're saying it doesn't matter because the strategy doesn't change?
ZAKARIA: It doesn't matter at the military level, right? Because you're still going to go after the bad guys. You're going after ISIS, you're going after them wherever you can find them and groups like them. Then there's the political strategy of how do you make sure that these Muslim communities from which they emerge expel them or, you know, don't succumb to them, and there what he's saying is, I don't want to needlessly insult Islam, and I don't want to needlessly call them Islamic leaders or Islamic groups.
You can agree or disagree, but again, the basic challenge you face is to try to find in these communities the leaders who will speak out against and denounce it. He's saying all that, so what would his critics want him to do differently --
LEMON: I think that they want him to say --
ZAKARIA: -- other than use a word.
LEMON: So according to his critics, how can you -- because the first word -- the first letter is Islamic, right?
ZAKARIA: Right.
LEMON: So then how can you have a summit when we're fighting ISIS, and not use the word which is the first letter of the -- of the word says that?
ZAKARIA: Right. And what I am saying to you as a matter --
LEMON: But the acronym says that. ZAKARIA: Right. As a matter of, you know, fact, yes, of course, they
are -- you get to call yourself whatever you want to.
LEMON: Right.
ZAKARIA: ISIS calls itself the Islamic State. What he's saying is, I don't want to give you that legitimacy. I don't want to allow you to claim the mantle of a religion. I'm going to -- I'm going to call you what I think you are, which is a bunch of thugs, a bunch of terrorists.
Look, there's no question they think of themselves as Islamic. Just as, you know, Marxist revolutionaries thought of themselves as true believers in the kind of new world order, the justice and peace for all. The question is, that doesn't mean we have to give them that legitimacy.
LEMON: Yes. How might this read -- How might ISIS read this speech? Will they be offended that they didn't call them Islamic? Will they be upset because they didn't call them Islamic?
ZAKARIA: I suspect that they're not paying much attention to that. But I do think that they would like the narrative to be the West versus Islam. That's what they keep saying. They keep saying the West is out to get all of the Muslim world, and to the extent that the president says, no, I don't buy that.
LEMON: What struck you most about his speech? What -- do you think he hit the right tone?
ZAKARIA: I think what struck me most about it is this is what he believes. He believes that it's very important to bring the Muslim community along with you, that it's important not to insult a religion. And he knows this is not going to be play very well politically, but what struck is he is finally being his own man. He is pursuing the kind of presidency he wants to. He thinks this is the responsible way to approach it. He knows there's a certain other network that is going to go crazy about this. And he doesn't care.
LEMON: Fareed Zakaria, always a pleasure. Thank you very much.
I want to turn now to Ambassador James Woolsey, a former director of Central Intelligence and chairman of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies.
Good evening to you, sir.
Ambassador Woolsey, the president being -- is he being too politically correct? Should he call ISIS Islamic extremists or does it really matter?
AMB. R. JAMES WOOLSEY, FORMER CIA DIRECTOR: The president is a sort of world champion of political correctness, and I think that he's let it really run too far here.
It might be different if he were taking a really stern position with respect to those groups in the Middle East and elsewhere that are causing huge problems. The Russians are running a foreign policy very much the way Hitler did from 1933 to 1939. The Chinese are trying to take over the South China Sea. The ISIS is doing what it is doing, murdering people, burning them alive and trying to expand into a caliphate that covers -- has a estate that covers much in the Middle East, and beyond, in a way, the way it happened in Mohammed's time.
LEMON: But, Ambassador, beyond just what the name is, what calling it is, many say it doesn't really matter. Does it affect the strategy? The president said that we have to address the root causes of radicalism, poverty, lack of education, and so on but --
WOOLSEY: But --
LEMON: Go on.
WOOLSEY: You need to address the root causes as well under these circumstances as let people know that you can fight. And you have to fight effectively, and he is not doing that. He didn't do it with Syria. He didn't -- and he is not do anything to ship weapons that are needed to Ukrainians who are dealing with the Russians. He is not dealing with Iran on anything but a very weak basis in the negotiations over the Iranian nuclear weapons.
LEMON: So you would like his approach to be tougher, how so?
WOOLSEY: Absolutely. Well, I think on those three areas -- I think there are four big areas, we want to say 3 1/2, China -- and the South China Sea is perhaps -- let's set that aside for a second. Russia taking over as much as it is in the process of doing of central and eastern Europe and perhaps back into Central Asia, in Kazakhstan is a very serious problem for that part of that world, and others that border on it.
ISIS is a huge problem for stability not only in the Middle East, but we may start seeing some of these terrible actions occurring not only in Europe as they have begun to, but in the United States, and then of course, you have the Iranians, and there are a various instrumentalities such as Hezbollah running things in a very rough in their part of the world.
And if he were taking a firm stand on these, if he were helping arm the Ukrainians --
LEMON: Right.
WOOLSEY: -- then he might have a bit more flexibility in the way he termed it. But basically he looks scared.
LEMON: Right.
WOOLSEY: He looks as if he's afraid of using the adjective Islamic to describe the terrorists.
LEMON: Right.
WOOLSEY: And that doesn't mean that all terrorists are Muslims and it doesn't mean that all Muslims are terrorists, that's nuts.
LEMON: But you're thinking he should at least use the word, Ambassador.
WOOLSEY: If you can't do that you will look like you're scared.
LEMON: Thank you --
WOOLSEY: And he looks like he's scared.
LEMON: Thank you, Ambassador, I appreciate your time.
Our Iraq's ambassador to the United Nations claims that ISIS may be harvesting the organs of some of its victims and selling them to finance other terror operations.
I'm joined now by Ric Esther Bienstock, he's the producer and director of the documentary "Tales from the Organ Trade."
Thank you very much. I appreciate you joining us.
You know, you produced a documentary in the black market organ trade. Could ISIS be stealing organs from either prisoners or captives and selling them on the black market? What would it take in terms of logistics even and know-how?
RIC ESTHER BIENSTOCK, PRODUCER/DIRECTOR, "TALES FROM THE ORGAN TRADE": Well, it's within the realm of possibility that they're doing it. But it's not as simple as it seems. And reports seemed to imply that they are harvesting these organs, that they're shipping them to Saudi Arabia and Turkey, and putting in the hands of organ trafficking rings, global organ trafficking rings, selling these organs on to Europe.
And that's just not that viable. An organ -- a kidney, for example, can live outside the body maximum 30 hours, a heart six hours. So in a kind of a horrific barbaric way, could they do it? Yes, but you also have to do tissue matching, you have to extract the organs in a way that is --- makes it possible to transplant them into somebody else, so, you know, I've heard these stories, I never say never but it seems unlikely.
LEMON: Yes. OK. But terrorist organizations, have they ever done this before?
BIENSTOCK: Well, there's been accusations, Kosovo Liberation Army was accused of harvesting organs from Serbian war prisoners. We know, for example, that China has been taking organs from executed prisoners. They admitted to that and they said that they would stop doing it. They weren't executing prisoners theoretically for their organs, but they were -- when they were going to execute a prisoner, they tested their -- they did the tissue matching and then they were using their organs.
So it could happen, but you need an infrastructure to do that. An organ is not -- it's not like drug trafficking. You don't pop an organ into a knife and have it travel around the world. You need -- one it has to be extracted properly. You'll need helicopters and airplanes getting it to places where other people's tissue has been tested as well. So it needs a medical community around it. And it's not like drugs where you can pass it from hand-to-hand and make some money.
LEMON: I have to --
BIENSTOCK: Having said that, if -- if they had that infrastructure, it's within the realm of possibility, but it just seems unlikely given what's going on there.
LEMON: I have to get to a break, but I've just -- quickly, can you tell me how much money was at stake? Can you give us an estimate?
BIENSTOCK: Is at stake with respect to --
LEMON: The harvesting of organ. How much money is transferred from -- possible money is transferred between -- for harvesting organs possibly?
BIENSTOCK: Well, I can say that the World Health Organization estimates that between 10 and 15 percent of all transplants worldwide occur on the black market, so it's a sizable amount of money.
LEMON: Thank you very much. We appreciate you joining us.
A lot more ahead here tonight on CNN TONIGHT, dramatic testimony in the "American Sniper" murder trial. Jurors hear these words, "I love you, but I hate your demons."
Word tonight the Justice Department is preparing to sue the Ferguson Police Department alleging a pattern of discriminatory tactics and demanding changes be made. Does that mean Officer Darren Wilson will face federal charges in the shooting death of Michael Brown? We have answers coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: On the witness stand today in the "American Sniper" murder trial, Eddie Ray Routh's sister who gave dramatic testimony about the state of her brother's mental health.
Here's CNN's Ed Lavandera.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Right after Eddie Ray Routh gunned down Chris Kyle and Chad Littlefield, he drove to his sister's house.
Laura Blevins says her brother was talking about pigs sucking on his soul and that he had to take two souls before they could take his. She called 911 right after he left in Kyle's pickup truck.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Who did he say he was -- he had killed? LAURA BLEVINS, EDDIE RAY ROUTH'S SISTER: He says that he killed two
guys. They went to a shooting range. It was like he's all crazy. He's (EXPLETIVE DELETED) psychotic.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Is he on drugs?
BLEVINS: I'm sorry for my language.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: No --
BLEVINS: I don't know if he's on drug or not, but I know that he's been --
LAVANDERA: In court, Blevins described the scene.
"The person who came to my house is not the man who I knew was my brother." And then she turned to him that day and said, "I love you, but I hate your demons."
The judge is not allowing courtroom audio to be broadcast until the trial is over, but prosecutors are zeroing in on those last words from Routh's sister in that 911 call. The drugs have been the focus since opening statements.
ALAN NASH, PROSECUTOR: He used drugs and alcohol that morning and that he knew what he was doing was wrong.
LAVANDERA: Prosecutors say Routh even ignored orders from his doctors to stop smoking weed and drinking alcohol, and smoked and drank whiskey with his uncle hours before he would kill the man known as the "American Sniper."
BRADLEY COOPER, ACTOR, "AMERICAN SNIPER": I just want to get the bad guy. But if I can't see them, I can't shoot them.
LAVANDERA: As Routh descended deeper into psychological troubles, he started dating this woman, Jennifer Weed, who has a degree in psychology herself. She says Routh could be quick tempered and erratic. A few weeks before the murders, Routh held his girlfriend and her roommate at knife point in her apartment. And the night before the killing, she said, "I asked him if he was seeing things and he said yes.
And then I asked if he was hearing things and he said yes. "He got up and told me that they were listening to us. And when I tried to speak with him, he would take his hand and cover my mouth."
That was the last night Routh would spend with the girlfriend he just asked to marry him. Not long after, he'd be seen handcuffed in the back of a police car.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LAVANDERA: And, Don, also that night before the murders, the girlfriend testified that Eddie Ray Routh out of the blue dropped to his knees and proposed to her, asking her to marry him. Another bizarre scene here in this murder trial -- Don.
LEMON: Ed Lavandera, thank you very much.
I'm joined now by Kevin Lacz. He is a retired Navy SEAL who did two tours of duty in Iraq with Chris Kyle, also co-stars in "American Sniper" and served as a technical adviser on the film.
Thank you for coming out and thank you for your service.
KEVIN LACZ, FORMER NAVY SEAL: Thank you, Don. Thanks for having me on.
LEMON: You served two tours in Iraq. You're a sniper right alongside Chris Kyle. So tell us about him.
LACZ: Chris is an amazing man. Very professional. He represented the teams well. He represented his family well. You know, it's with a heavy heart in the grieving process that we're going through with Chris and he's a great American, and you know, I'm very honored to call him my friend.
LEMON: Did you talk to Chris when you both got back home?
LACZ: We did. Chris and I stayed friends outside of the teams. He was actually one of the first people to call and, you know, congratulate me on the birth of my son. And, you know, I worked with Chris and I actually spoke with him the day before. And we texted that morning, and you know, we kept our relationship up and he was always a good friend of mine.
LEMON: So how was he doing when you texted? What were the nature of the texts in your conversation?
LACZ: It was casual. You know, Chris was doing well. He was happy to be in Texas, he was happy to be back with his family to help build up part of his family that it lacked while he was deployed as a SEAL. And he was happy to actually start to company Craft to move forward. And, you know, we kept it light. And you know, Chris was on to big things, and the last text line was, you know, I'll talk to you tomorrow.
LEMON: Yes. So you were an adviser in the movie. I want to play this clip from the movie and then get -- what you think about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you be surprised if I told you that the Navy has credited you with over 160 kills?
COOPER: Hmm.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you ever think that you might have seen things or done some things over there that you wish you hadn't?
COOPER: Oh, that's not me. No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's not you?
COOPER: I was just protecting my guys. They were trying to kill our soldiers. And I'm willing to meet my Creator and answer for every shot that I took. The thing that haunts me are all the guys that I couldn't save.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Haunted by all the guys that he couldn't save. Do you feel that way? Do you think most of vets feel that way?
LACZ: You know, I can speak for myself and for the SEAL teams and special operations. You know, the military is a volunteer service. We volunteer to do it. You know, to go the extra step and join the ranger battalion or go through the (INAUDIBLE) and become a SEAL. It's the ultimate step. And we go forward to take the fight to the enemy so when we go down range, we protect the people around us in that brotherhood.
We protect the people, the Marines, the Army, that we work with. You know, so things don't haunt us. So for me, I'm not haunted by those. And I don't think Chris was because he never told me that.
LEMON: There has been some criticism -- a lot of criticism about the movie. Some say that it's anti-Islam. How do you respond to that?
LACZ: I think that's an unfair critique. I believe that, you know, the adversary in the movie is, you know, a sniper who is from Iraq, and then there is also the butcher who is also from Iraq, and regardless of the setting, it's the adversary and the country he's from. So I don't think it's anti-Islam. And I think, you know, the way Chris describes it and the way he talked about it, you know, when you've seen the face of evil, and you're inundated with it, and you're in this moment each and every day, you are able to call it what it is.
So I don't think it's anti-Islam. It's anti the hate that's towards Americans and the hate towards coalition forces.
LEMON: Also there's -- you know, there's been a lot of questions about some of Chris' account of things that happened once he got back here. Did he ever talk about that? What do you think about those -- about those questions?
LACZ: You know, Chris was a very humble guy. He was the type of guy that would receive a lot of praise and immediately deflect it to the people around him. So, you know, to hear people say that Chris was out boasting about his accomplishments or boasting about things he might have done, I would disagree.
Chris was a humble guy. He'd like to take all that praise and praise the people around him, and, you know, Mark Lee and Ryan Jobe shown through in the book. So I would disagree and say that wasn't Chris and, you know, it's not stuff that he would do. He was a good steward of the flag and he was a good American.
LEMON: Do you believe that we're fighting Islamic terrorism or extremism instead of just extremism in general as the White House has portrayed it?
LACZ: That's interesting question. I know we're fighting extremism. It's a very barbaric extremism. People asked me, well, where was ISIS and ISIL when you were there, and the answer is we were out there actively engaged with them all the time. So the threats weren't there. And as we've left, there you see it pop up.
So I believe we're actively engaging a threat and they are coming from an Islamic state, so, you know, let's put the phrase together and call it what it is. It's an Islamic extremism.
LEMON: Kevin Lacz, again, thank you for coming on and thank you for your service.
LACZ: Thank you so much, Don.
LEMON: Up next, the Justice Department may sue the Ferguson Police Department alleging a pattern of racially discriminatory tactics used by officers.
I'm going to talk about this development with our legal experts next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Breaking news tonight. Attorney General Eric Holder is preparing to take new legal action against the Ferguson Police Department.
Want to go right to CNN justice reporter Evan Perez with the very latest.
What do you know, Evan?
EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Don, the Attorney General Eric Holder is getting ready to cross off one of the big items on his to-do list before he leaves office in a couple of weeks. And that is to deliver on changes at the Ferguson Police Department.
Now this is going to have to be what will stand for justice for Michael Brown which is something that the attorney general had promised both the family and the community down there, because, as you know, it's not expected that the Justice Department will be able to bring charges against Officer Darren Wilson who is the one who shot Michael Brown.
Now as part of this, it's going to be what we -- what they call a consent decree under which the city is going to be forced to make changes. Now if it doesn't do those changes, the Justice Department is prepared to bring a lawsuit to get a judge to force the city to do so.
LEMON: And also saying that the Ferguson police department has been doing some things to target minorities, what did they accuse of doing?
PEREZ: Right, exactly. And that's part of the pattern and practice as they call it, of targeting minorities for unfair discrimination in a way they do. They police -- their police work, it was a lawsuit file a couple weeks ago Don, that alleges that the city was using traffic fines against minority drivers to fund the city coffers. And so, what they were doing is -- if people couldn't pay, they'll end up in jail. Now that is something that the justice department is expected to use as part of its case here against the Ferguson police department. They going to have to stop that in order to -- to get agreement from justice department.
LEMON: Evan Perez, thank you very much, our justice reporter.
Joining me now is Mark Geragos, CNN legal analyst, and Defense Attorney Mark O'Mara, also a CNN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney. And Judge Mablean Ephriam, former prosecutor, author and TV judge on Justice with Judge Mablean.
So Judge Mablean, you heard you're on the ground of Ferguson. What do you think of this news now? How the communities are going to react to it?
JUDGE MABLEAN EPHRIAM, FORMER PROSECUOTR: Well, I think the community too is going to react positively, because that is exactly what is needed, I was there in Ferguson. And when I spoke to a group of the community of what I set, and to justice to them, was that they needed to make sure that the police department made some changes in a way that they police the city. Because they expressed to me, doing that town hall meeting, the same thing that the U.S. attorney general is saying now, that there was a pattern of practice of discrimination that minorities were unfairly stopped for minor traffic citations, and they could not pay it, and they would end up in jail. And that's what we commonly refer to in the legal community as driving while black. And as the prosecutor, I've noticed that minorities sometimes were off and stopped for more traffic by citations than others. For instance, for having a taillight out, or having the break light out, for having a window broken, for not having a --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: And he also says to -- it makes you wonder if they were targeting the kinds of vehicles, because it says poor people as well as minorities where being target, and they couldn't -- if they couldn't pay the fine, they ended up in jail. And it just -- sort of became this pattern over and over, as a domino effect, really couldn't pull themselves out. Mark O'Mara, have to answer --
EPHRIAM: Yeah, they --
LEMON: Federal government sues. What does that mean legally if the federal government sues?
MARK O'MARA, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, they not going to sue yet, what they were going to do is enter into like what I said by Evan, a consent order and that puts the pressure on Ferguson to make some very significant changes. The problem with it is that, we looked at the numbers and we know that Fergusons was a racially divided town, and at the police department didn't reflect at all the community. And that was pretty obvious, and now were going to have the numbers to sort of focus on that. Because were going to see numbers of more young black males or more blacks being stopped, so all of this is going to be there. But if they in fact sue, that the conceptually doesn't work, that is soon is going to mean a civil rights violation against the town itself, for the way that they evacuate (ph) discriminatory way. In effect, then the federal government can come in and in the worst case can come over, it's like taking over the government if it don't fix it themselves.
LEMON: Mark Geragos, are you surprised? Many people had it there in Ferguson and protesters had hope and the family members had hoped that locally, no charges the officer was not indicted that they were hoping that it might happen on the federal level. The federal government may not bring charges now against Darren Wilson. What do you think is going to happen?
MARK GERAGOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: They're never -- they're never going to bring charges against Darren Wilson and frankly, this kind of too little too late threat of we may file, I don't know, if I were on the ground in Ferguson, I'll be saying, really? This is what you going to do after the attorney general came here and promise us justice, this is justice? To me, it's just a -- it's almost a joke. I mean, if they wanted to do some justice, why didn't they -- why didn't they initiate an investigation is to why the district attorney there was suborning perjury in front of the grand jury. I mean, if -- if I had done that, if I put witnesses that I knew were lying up on the stand, I guarantee you that some law enforcement would have indicted me or would've indicted O'Mara if he tried that. But the other D.A. gets a pass on that, and all of these people who get pulled over, thrown into jail for bogus traffic violations, and then they have to sit in jail -- you know, we outlawed debtor's prison 200 years ago, but apparently, it's still alive and well there. I mean, this whole thing to my mind is just completely window dressing and a complete joke.
LEMON: Mark O'Mara, you're shaking your head in agreement, why?
O'MARA: Well --
(CROSSTALK)
O'MARA: Let's remember that Ferguson is sort of the town of the day. Two years ago it was Sanford police department, with Eric Garner's death, it was New York City. We're not going to settle this one town at a time. These are good examples of what's happening throughout America. What we need to do is have a much more principled approach to the fact that the way law enforcement interacting with the general public, in particular with minorities. Because Ferguson is going to come and go, it's going to go up our minds like Sanford did, but there are many more national issues that have to be addressed. Like Mark said, this is too little too late or maybe it's going to focused as to say, this is happening everywhere, I'm going to have to address it everywhere, and if we make an example out of Ferguson, and keep it in its spotlight, maybe it will help somebody's else communities.
LEMON: You know Judge Mablean you were in Ferguson, so what do you think these to happen to bring about real and lasting change? EPHRIAM: Well, I think real and lasting change will only take place when the community is involved in the -- in a say-so over what happens in their government. It's 70 percent black, Ferguson, and the police department is 10 percent African-American, and if you just go through the entire city, most of the people that are in office, and that are decision makers do not look like the people that live in the city. So you have to give them a voice in their city and I said to them, you need to prepare yourselves to become the next mayor. To become the next city council person, to go to the police department and become police officers, to become the next police commissioner, the city has to be more representative...
LEMON: You bring up --
EPHRIAM: The city government has to be more representative of the people that live there, and it's not.
LEMON: You bring up a very good point, because if you talk to any police department around the country, they will tell you that they have trouble recruiting minority police officers. And even minority officers will agree that it is tough to find minority officers. So, it can't be a 100 percent match between community and police departments, if you are having issues with that.
EPHRIAM: Well is that -- right, it is not just finding minority officers, you have to find people who really are interested in policing and really interested in doing justice. And there are a number of police officers that's why there have to be a psychological evaluation of every applicant...
LEMON: Right.
EPHRIAM: Because there are number of people who apply to be police officers so they can use their -- that and their prejudice under the color of the law, and be immune from the conduct that they want to do anyway. So you have to be sure that you are getting the people in there that really want to do justice and want to police, and really want to serve our community, not putt their neck and their foot down on our community.
LEMON: Point taken. I got to go. Thank you very much, will -- standby, as a matter of fact. When we come right back, surveillance cameras used to -- to be something that just criminals, and used to be something that just criminals have to worried by -- about and now police are getting caught on video, more on that, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: In the age when everyone has -- one of these, a high-def camera right in their pockets at all times. It's not just suspects, but police who are often caught on camera. CNN's Will Ripley, report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILL RIPLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Dash cam video shows police in Missouri kicking, enticing a man during this traffic stop. Until one of the cops decides it's time to stop recording.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hold up. Everybody hold up. We're (inaudible) right now. So if you guys are worried about cameras, just wait.
RIPLEY: The video ends. Drug and weapons charges against the suspect, later dropped. The decorated St. Louis metropolitan police officer who stopped the video, violated department policy, but he's still on the force.
ANDREW CELLI, ATTORNEY: They're going to be subject to scrutiny, that's part of the job.
RIPLEY: Attorney Andrew Celli says distrust the police is leading many citizens to take their own videos of police activity. He says it's perfectly legal as long as you don't interfere. That doesn't stop this police officer in Oregon from demanding to check Carrie Medina's phone as she reports in a parent arrest.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, it's not a choice.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's not a choice?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's not a choice.
CELLI: It's absolutely a choice. But police do not have the right randomly to take people's cell phones away.
RIPLEY: It's about to happen anyway.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I -- I don't want to show you but --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
RIPLEY: This federal lawsuit claims medina's rights were violated and she suffered physical and psychological inquiries, when police seized her phone, twisted her arms and detained her two years ago. The city of Gresham turned down CNN's interview request. But each sentence statement claiming the chief reminded officers videotaping by the public is part of police work today. These days, anyone with a Smartphone can take video and even stream it online. A growing number of people are turning their phones on police, when things get ugly.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Joe, (ph) gets your phone out.
RIPLEY: This video, taken by a 14-year-old in the backseat is evidence in Indiana family successive force law suit. A seat belt violation last fall led to this.
(CRYING)
RIPLEY: All of it unfold that the children in the backseat.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My, gosh. Why?
RIPLEY: This cell phone video led to $1.5 million settlement from Marlene Pinnock, beaten by the side of a highway last summer by a California highway patrol officer, he resigned.
MARLENE PINNOCK, BEATEN BY THE CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL OFFICER: Thank you for the footage, for the video.
RIPLEY: Pinnock survived, Eric Garner did not. This video shows the unarmed man being placed in a chokehold by a New York City police officer. A grand jury decided not to indict that officer for Garner's death. But videos like this are proving to be powerful tools for citizens capturing alleged, bad behavior by police.
Will Ripley, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: Will, thank you very much. And back now, with Defense Attorney's Mark Geragos and Mark O'Mara. I think the video is unbelievable, that L.A. video, my goodness. So let's talk about these -- the Missouri one. Mark Geragos, when you here the female officer warning the other officers at the dash cam is recording, and the camera soon turns off, what's your initial reaction to that?
GERAGOS: That is not all about race, but it has to do with kind of ingrained police belief that they shouldn't be second-guessed, and they shouldn't be watched. I mean that's exactly what transpires here, for 32 years, I've been doing this and I've heard the clients who repeatedly tell me, white, black, Latino, Armenian, it doesn't matter. That this happens all the time, that police knew this, and when they march them into the court, it's usually the civilian versus the police's word and you don't have a videotape. And therefore, it's -- who's going to win, because everybody wants to believe the police.
LEMON: Mark O'Mara?
O'MARA: Destruction of evidence. That's a crime, if my client did that, destroy the evidence that showed either evidence of a crime or evidence of non-crime, and cops simply cannot do that. It is a brave new world for the cops, but they better get used to the fact that everyone's going to have a camera, and by the way, they should be wearing a camera, too.
LEMON: Should they be able to turn off the camera off?
O'MARA: You cannot turn the camera off to avoid...
GERAGOS: No.
O'MARA: Detection of what you do wrong. What they did in that case should get them fired. They turned off a camera solely, so that it wouldn't be recording what the cops ended up doing. And the only reason why it is sound likes that if you don't want it seen or recorded. That should be a crime.
LEMON: So that -- the guy on the...
GERAGOS: Like fired. Why wouldn't that be obstruction of justice?
O'MARA: It's destruction of evidence.
GERAGOS: I've been literally Don, it's obstruction -- right? It's destruction of evidence, obstruction of justice, they know there's an ongoing investigation, they're conducting an investigation and they're just destroying the evidence on -- investigation gone awfully wrong.
LEMON: This is rise of the level though --
O'MARA: Right now, I just found out two days ago, that they destroyed the evidence of a recording of a shooting of an officer, bad shooting of my client, and the evidence was there, and they destroyed it. That's criminal.
LEMON: I have to go. But this is the rise of the level of criminal activity, because the man arrested here is claiming that it was excessive force, quickly, either of you.
O'MARA: It's a crime if you destroyed the evidence.
GERAGOS: I absolutely --
O'MARA: Unless you (inaudible) the cops.
LEMON: Thank you, thank you, gentlemen. Coming up, road rage is seems to be all too common these days, and some are turning deadly. And he's back in the ring, but this time, battling road rage. World champion Evander Holyfield, joins me next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Two cases of extreme road rage around the country have drivers on high alert. Police in Arapahoe county Colorado have identified a road rage stabbing suspect as Lewis Kelly, aged 62. Kelly is currently being held on charges of assault and attempted murder. And how (ph) is still on for another road rage suspect in Las Vegas, who shot and killed his victim in her own driveway. None of years of battling it out in the ring, my next guest has let his voice to the fight against road rage.
Joining me now is world champion boxer Evander Holyfield. It is an honor to have you on sir.
EVANDER HOLYFIELD, WORLD CHAMPION BOXER: Thank you.
LEMON: You know you are the only -- only five-time world champion, only five-time world champion of the world. Now you are starring in a very important PSA. Let's look at it and we'll talk about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) (beep)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You cut me off, you son of a (beep). You get (bleep) that car, you just (beep) right now. Who turn you a new (beep), come on. Yeah, what I'm (beep) -- I didn't know it was you -- (beep)
(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: Very powerful. How did you get involved in this campaign,
Evander?
HOLYFIELD: Well, I went to ask and I knew it was a very serious situation, and then people get hurt anything can happen in a road rage.
LEMON: There are so many worthy causes though, why -- why road rage?
HOLYFIELD: Because you know -- you know, as a kid at 17-years-old, my car broke down, and pretty much the same thing happened to me. You know, people shouting and cursing and doing a lot of things, and -- you know, at that time, I could fight but, you know -- you know, things could happen in a situation like that.
LEMON: Even though at that time you could fight, it's still probably very intimidating, because you are worried about your car breaking down, people are yelling at you, does it really matter the size, but in most part, it's still intimidating.
HOLYFIELD: It is. It is, you know, I'm telling you kind of embarrassed -- you embarrassed too because, your car broke down. Don't know about really want to hold other people up and they do tend to get incentive about their time and -- that it could happen to anybody.
LEMON: And you don't know if they -- it just matter how big or especially if they have weapon, you don't know if they have a weapon as well. So what do you -- what do you think the best thing people can do to avoid being in a dangerous situation on the road like this?
HOLYFIELD: Well, it is to stay in the car, stay in the car and not get out, you know is, you know, whether you are a man or woman, you know, you just stand in your car and -- and let the person cool out, because you never know.
LEMON: You have a son, your son Elijah, about the same age that you were when you had that road rage incident that you talked about. How do you tell him to handle that kind of situation? You just tell him, just to stay in the car and stay cool?
HOLYFIELD: Well, I -- I would say that, you know - you know, anybody can get hurt, you know. It don't make no difference -- your size, what the situation is, you know it's dangerous.
LEMON: Yeah. So your son is a star athlete himself. He just won one of the most recruited footballs -- football recruits in the 2016 class. I mean, where do you think he's going to go with this?
HOLYFIELD: Well, you know, he got plenty of choices, he got plenty of choice. He -- he work hard, you know, I think that by him being a hard worker, and you know and applying himself, allowed to have him choices.
LEMON: How proud of you -- how proud of him are you?
HOLYFIELD: I -- am very proud. Football is what I love, and he got -- he got an opportunity to do something that I really wanted to do. But you know boxing was my second choice.
LEMON: Yeah. So you haven't been in the ring since 2011, officially though, you have retired -- you retired in 2014, what are you focusing on now?
HOLYFIELD: Well, I'm into helping people. I could've believed that -- you know, with the American Cancer Society, the Boys and Girls Club and Police Athletic League.
LEMON: Yeah. Yup, you're a world champion in and out of the ring. Thank you very much. Come to New York, I'd love to have you here on the set. We'd love to have you back on.
HOLYFIELD: All right. Thank you.
LEMON: Thank you.
HOYLFIELD: I will.
LEMON: Thank you very much. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Well, that's New York City, we were going to take you to Hollywood this Sunday. The countdown has begun to Hollywood's biggest night, so come along with us, because we want to bring you all the red carpet action live. Make sure you join me with New Days Michaela Pereira. Sunday, beginning at 6 p.m. Eastern time, and after the awards, we've got all your -- all access pass to the A-list parties, we take you inside. We take you on the red carpet. We'll take on the Oscars, you're going to enjoy all of it. We're going to be your fashion police. Plus, we're going to have all the memorable moments of the evening, so make sure you join us for the special, And The Winner Is, it starts right after the ceremony. I'm so glad you can join us this evening.
That's it for us tonight, unfortunately, I'm Don Lemon. I'll be back here tomorrow night. Until then, we see you. "AC360" starts right now.
