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Don Lemon Tonight
Mother Jones vs. Bill O'Reilly; Arrest in Murder of Las Vegas Mom; Bill Cosby Accusers Speak Out; Defense Rests in "American Sniper" Trial
Aired February 19, 2015 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.
We are beginning with breaking news tonight. Manhunt in Las Vegas and a witch hunt in the media.
Brian Williams of NBC News may not be the only journalist with credibility problems. "Mother Jones," a publication that reported on Mitt Romney's 47 percent comment which deeply damaged his presidential campaign is reporting tonight that there are questions about Bill O'Reilly of FOX News. That statement he has made about reporting from war zone cannot be substantiated.
So I want to bring in now CNN's media correspondent, the host of "RELIABLE SOURCES," Brian Stelter, and Frank Sesno, director of the School of Media and Public Affairs at George Washington University. He covered the Falkland Islands -- Associated Press, excuse me. He covered the Falkland Islands for the Associated Press. So he joins us now via Skype.
So here -- this is what the statement is. This is what "Mother Jones" is reporting. They're saying that he told false statements about his time of war as a correspondent for NBC News during the Falkland Island war. It says, "For years, O'Reilly has recounted dramatic stories about his own war reporting that don't withstand scrutiny, even claiming he acted heroically in a war zone that he apparently never set foot in."
And that was for CBS -- Brian.
BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: This started with Brian Williams two weeks ago, right, Don. And I wondered at the time, were we going to see other television news stars with actually the same level of scrutiny that Brian Williams has been subjected to, well, now the answer is yes. And it's Bill O'Reilly, who is the Brian Williams of cable news, and what I mean by that is, he's the number one, you know, rated news anchor or opinion anchor, call him whatever you want, on cable news in the United States.
He has a bigger audience than anyone else on cable news. So he is the biggest in some ways target and the most important in some ways, deserving of scrutiny so this story is significant because it is pointing out discrepancies in his description of this war story.
He -- you know, he has said tonight in a series of interviews with outlets like the "Washington Post" and TV news or Mediaite, that they call the "Mother Jones" a lie, he calls the reporter a guttersnipe liar.
LEMON: Left-wing assassin, right?
STELTER: A disgusting piece of garbage. We could go on and on and on. Meanwhile, "Mother Jones" is saying, just look at the actual evidence here. Don't make this a he said-he said. Look at the evidence here. Over time and his books and on television, Bill O'Reilly talked about being in a combat zone. But the closest he actually got to that combat zone was in Argentina not in the Falkland Islands where --
LEMON: There's a riot, right?
STELTER: -- no reporter were able to be. That's right.
LEMON: Right. Right.
STELTER: So your definition of war zone is part of the issue here. You know, as David Corn, the "Mother Jones" reporter, said to me on the phone a few minutes ago, he said it's as if you say you were in D.C. covering a Vietnam war protest, and then claiming you were in Vietnam. That's how they say this is.
LEMON: Frank, what do you think of the "Mother Jones" report?
FRANK SESNO, FORMER CNN WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF: Well, I think it's very interesting. First thing, though, I would say is it's not a Brian Williams' problem. I don't think it's anywhere near on that scale. While Brian is quite right, O'Reilly is the biggest guy in cable television, he is not the Brian Williams of NBC. Brian Williams does a news show, O'Reilly does an all O'Reilly opinion show.
These are a series of issues that are 35 years old now, or 30-plus years old certainly, Brian Williams were -- he got trouble over issues that are current and immediate and on the air with him.
LEMON: But if he's -- what's the difference if he is fudging or if he is embellishing? And again this is according to "Mother Jones." What's the difference if he is embellishing as well?
SESNO: Well, I totally agree, I think Brian is dead right about this. Everybody is fair game now. Anybody who'd had a public statement on television or anywhere else, it's going to be scrutinized. O'Reilly was scrutinized, there do appear to be inconsistencies in what he said in various places, although I heard him on one piece of tape, saying I covered the war from Argentina, from Buenos Aires, and from Montevideo which is Uruguay.
As you mentioned, I was down there, was there the entire time, or virtually the entire time of the conflict, we never got anywhere near it. I mean, I covered the war from Buenos Aires. There were demonstrations, there were some of the disturbances that you talk about. I never saw true troops open fire in a big way on crowds. So this can be scrutinized, Don, but I just don't think that this is on a par of the issues of the exaggerations and the trouble that Brian Williams is in.
LEMON: One of the examples they point to is this O'Reilly segment which is from 2013 while discussing the Boston bombing. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL O'REILLY, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: I was in a situation one time in a war zone in Argentina, in the Falklands, where my photographer got run down and then hit his head and was bleeding from the ear on the concrete, and the army was chasing us, I had to make a decision, and I dragged him off. You know, but at the same time I'm looking around and trying to do my job, but I feared I had to get this guy out of there because that was more important.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: What do you think? He said --
STELTER: So that's one good example, Don, of him describing being in the combat situation. And other times in the past, O'Reilly has talked about, quote, "surviving the combat situation in the Argentina."
LEMON: He said in the Falklands.
STELTER: During the Falklands war. He described it as being in Argentina but whether it's a combat situation or not is part of the issue. Another time in 2003, he said, "I've almost been killed three times," so those kind of claims are now going to get scrutinized more closely.
(CROSSTALK)
STELTER: Some of his former colleagues at CBS --
LEMON: Hang on, hang on. Let's play the sound bite again. Let's play the sound bite again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
O'REILLY: I was in a situation one time in a war zone in Argentina, in the Falklands, where my photographer got run down and then hit his head and was bleeding from the ear on the concrete, and the army was chasing us, I had to make a decision, and I dragged him off. You know, but at the same time I'm looking around and trying to do my job, but I feared I had to get this guy out of there because that was more important.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Could it be just that he's just using shorthand, but he said in the Falklands? STELTER: In the Falkland. And the two TV interviews tonight he said
I never said I was on the Falkland Islands. Nobody was. So there are some discrepancies here, and the question is whether people were going to care about this or not. You know, like Frank was saying, he's not a news anchor like Brian Williams is. So people may just assume the best or the worst about Bill O'Reilly. It may not change their views based on this story but I do think among people that already predisposed to being skeptical of Bill O'Reilly, this is going to stick.
LEMON: Go ahead, Frank.
SESNO: Don, I only have two points. First of all, it does make it sound in that piece of tape that he was in a war zone. If where that happened was in the streets of Buenos Aires because there were plenty of demonstrations, I was in some of those, and outside of the Casa Rosada, which is presidential palace, and people were very belligerent. But that wasn't a war zone. That might have been a disturbance in the city or something like that, but it was -- when you talk about a war zone, that makes it sound like combat is happening around you.
LEMON: OK, what --
SESNO: This other point I want to make, though, is --
LEMON: Go ahead, Frank. Sorry.
SESNO: -- if you listen to this piece of tape, and what he's saying, listen to the number of times -- he's talking about himself, I, I, I, Brian Williams was doing the same thing, I, I, I, this is the admonition we should all take seriously.
We are not the story. The journalists should not be the story, and when we become the story, and we start talking about I all the time, it's not a very big leap until I, we get in trouble.
LEMON: And I do think that you are making an important point here, because I am not sure then, I'm sure if Bill O'Reilly saw himself as a journalist. Now he doesn't -- at least he doesn't call himself a journalist to my knowledge, he says he is a host, and during -- he doesn't really report news, he doesn't report during the election, they'll bring him in to make, you know, to sum up with a comment or some commentary, to do opinion, but he really doesn't do news, so he is not really, you know, seen as a journalist, so to speak.
(CROSSTALK)
STELTER: But it does go to the heart of the brand. He calls --
LEMON: But he did take on Brian Williams.
STELTER: And he said it's the no spin zone. If he is perceived as spinning in these situations then that's not good for him.
LEMON: Yes. STELTER: He gave a (INAUDIBLE) TV news eight or nine interviews
tonight. He did the anti-Brian Williams here, Don. This story came out at 5:30, "Mother Jones" tried for nine hours to reach FOX News. FOX declined to comment. Then the story came out, FOX immediately put Bill O'Reilly on the phone with any reporter who want to talk to Bill O'Reilly, it seems like, and eight or nine interviews tonight. So O'Reilly was --
LEMON: You spoke to FOX.
STELTER: I spoke to FOX, they deferred to what O'Reilly said to all those other interviewers tonight, but my point is O'Reilly came out on the offensive right away, called this report BS, called it lies, that it's defamatory, so he's doing the anti-Brian Williams. They're not retreating the way that NBC did initially. And that might shape the response to this.
Now I do wonder, and we'll find out in the days to come, are there other examples, are there other tall tales, I don't know. I'm going to make it very clear. But if there are, that could be trouble for Bill O'Reilly.
LEMON: Here's one more example from "Mother Jones" back in 2009.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He has been there.
O'REILLY: And I have been there.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The events when they happened, the wars? Whatever you have been there?
O'REILLY: Well, that really separates me from most of these bloviaters. I bloviate but I -- you know, I bloviate about stiff I've seen. They bloviate about stuff that they haven't. I covered four wars, I was down in El Salvador in the '80s, then I went over to the Falkland Islands war, covered it from Buenos Aires, from Montevideo. And I went to Israel and cover that and then I went to Northern Ireland and covered that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So is the -- the Falkland thing is there, he said I covered it from Buenos Aires.
STELTER: Right.
LEMON: But are other places that he talked about, Israel, are those in question as well? Do we know that?
STELTER: I don't believe they are.
LEMON: OK.
STELTER: I mean, he wrote in his book, for example, about his experience in El Salvador in the past, and he described being there and trying to get his reports on the air and having trouble at CBS. That played in his narrative of having a hard time at CBS, and then eventually leaving the network.
It does bring up another issue, and a bigger issue.
LEMON: It points to consistency, is that it?
STELTER: I think it brings up a bigger issue, Don, which is, if you go to Buenos Aires, and you're there, and you can't get to the Falkland Islands, how much actual reporting are you doing? You know, Bill O'Reilly might be able to use it on his resume years later, but how much was he actually adding to the story?
Sometimes years or decades later, anchors want to pop up themselves and describe where they were in all the important stories they covered, but they weren't really gathering new information that they were imbedded with the troops, for example. How much were they adding? And I think that's another point, a larger point we can think about in the context of these stories.
LEMON: Yes. War correspondents will say, the one thing they do hate is when news anchors say I covered this, and you covered it from the anchor desk when you're out in the field. You didn't really cover it. What you did was just sort of orchestrate where you go in --
STELTER: Yes. I mean, there's an expression, getting dirt on your boots.
LEMON: Right.
STELTER: You know, when an anchor sometimes want to get dirt on their boots very briefly to show they were there for a story, when in fact what we should really celebrate, what we should lift up as an industry are the people that are really day in, day out doing the hard work.
LEMON: So he responded to TVNewser, TVNewser.com. He also responded to Dylan Byers and you said several news outlets.
STELTER: Politico, "Washington Post." Yes.
LEMON: And you spoke to FOX News.
STELTER: Yes.
LEMON: And here's what he says -- what he told TVNewser.
"No, everything I said is true. I mean, this is ridiculous. Everything I said is verifiable, the video that I got led the 'Dan Rather' program that night. This is insane. I never said I was on the Falkland Islands. Nobody was. CBS News has the footage to this day. Everything I said about my reportorial career, everything, reportorial career, everything is accurate.
That's what he said.
STELTER: So he says that.
LEMON: He said it's BS.
STELTER: But since you played that clip and then you hear him using the phrase Falkland Islands, that's where the kind of inconsistency comes up that's going to be scrutinized further, I think.
LEMON: Yes.
STELTER: What we see him here doing is being very blunt, coming out and defending himself.
LEMON: Yes.
STELTER: Not letting the story snowball, but listen, it's already trending on Facebook and Twitter, the initial reaction by Bill O'Reilly is going to mean a lot, because if there is discrepancies on what he's saying now, that could hurt him further.
If we learned anything from the Brian Williams ordeal at NBC is that their initial responses were inadequate.
LEMON: OK.
STELTER: It's in some ways, crisis communications 101.
LEMON: I want to get this, this is from Mediaite. It says, "This is total bullshit." BS, excuse me. Total BS, pardon me, I did not mean that -- for that to come out. It says, "If you were assigned to a war you put on your resume, you covered the Falklands, the Middle East, El Salvador, wherever it is where you were sent, that is what journalists do."
So he said -- because he said he covered the Falklands, doesn't mean he was in the Falklands, but he covered the war.
STELTER: You know, he may very well been in a life-or-death situation in Argentina, in this point where maybe the army opened fire on civilians. Maybe that was a life-and-death situation.
LEMON: Yes.
STELTER: And maybe the ways he's describing it is absolutely legitimate, but in this environment where Brian Williams' stories have been scrutinized and shown to be exaggerations, the impetus is on O'Reilly and I think shows the same, and maybe there's tape. Maybe there's others that can describe it. I think that's going to be more significant than just O'Reilly mouthing off today at interviewers.
LEMON: Yes. And it's important to get both sides. Just want to point that out. And again, my apologies. Can we get it right in this camera -- apologies for using that word, it'll never happen again. It was just a slip of the tongue.
Thank you very much, Brian.
STELTER: Thank you.
LEMON: Thank you very much, Frank Sesno. Appreciate it.
Much more ahead tonight, an arrest is made in a Las Vegas road rage murder. We have the latest on that.
And also ahead an exclusive interview tonight with two more women who are coming forward to accuse Bill Cosby of sexual assault.
And did comedian Eddie Murphy decline to play Cosby in a skit on "Saturday Night Live's" big 40th anniversary celebration?. We have some answers coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He killed my wife like an animal. And my son. There's the animal a block away. Are you happy?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: There's our breaking news tonight. The distraught husband of a Las Vegas woman who was killed in apparent road rage incident, lashing out at reporters covering the arrest of a young man in connection with the murder. And tonight police are searching for at least one more suspect.
CNN's Sara Sidner in Las Vegas for us.
So, Sara, lots of twists and turns, and a very sad story. What's the latest?
SARA SIDNER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, and I have one more twist and turn for you. We just spent some time speaking with Robert Myers, the husband of Tammy Myers, and he explained a detail that we had not yet heard that everybody has been wondering about. What happened in that second encounter between his wife when his wife brought his son in the car and somehow found the suspect again.
We are told now by the family that shots were fired by the suspect, and that is what sent the family back to the house to try to come back to safety. She tried to get her son back in the house, and she was shot and killed by the suspect. So that is brand new information that we have not been able to report until now because we just got that information by Robert Myers.
Again, there is another suspect that police are searching for. They have one suspect in custody who they are saying is the person who killed Mrs. Myers, the mother of four, but this story keeps changing. There's been a lot, and you saw that frustration there from the father. There has been a lot of different reporting, depending on who you're hearing from. It does turn out that this family, Tammy Myers herself, knew the suspect, that she had spent time with him, tried to counsel him, brought him food, talked to him quite a bit, trying to help him out, according to the family. And so this is not at all a simple case of road rage that everyone
initially thought with the details that people were given. There has been a lot of social media backlash at this family, blaming them, and let me tell you that has sent them absolutely -- they are just so angry about that, because they feel like Tammy Myers did what she had to try and protect her children.
LEMON: Sara Sidner, thank you very much for that.
I want to bring in now Dr. Drew Pinsky, host of HLN's "Dr. Drew on Call."
Dr. Drew, let's talk about this road rage murder. We know now that the suspect in custody, and the victim's family knew each other. What do you make of this surprising development?
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST, HLN'S "DR. DREW ON CALL": Well, it's not that surprising because there's really very little about this incident that is typical of road rage. If somebody is going to escalate to violence after a road rage incident, there's usually a back and forth that escalates over time, and finally somebody gets out of the vehicle and off it goes.
This was something that erupted very quickly, and always had the feeling of somebody that was -- that they knew each other or something. There were some sort of connection. In this case we still don't know the nature of that relationship between the victim and the perpetrator yet. Was -- she was a nurse. Was she going to try to help somebody in the neighborhood that she believed that she could help or could tell was at risk and in trouble?
Was she involved in a deeper way? I've had people speculate there was -- crazy speculation out there that they were involved romantically. There's all kinds of speculations, and of course, social media is going to take off with this speculation until we start to hear the facts.
The reality is, though, this should never have happened. I'm concerned as an addictionologist, that there may be drugs, particularly methamphetamine involved. That is the drug that typically results in violence. We know this kid did do -- I've talked to neighbors that reported he did do a lot of drugs. And we -- they didn't really know which drugs he was doing but just the right one or the right combination, and you have someone that could easily become violent.
LEMON: Her husband said that she was trying to help him. Do you think that this was a road rage incident entirely? Because she was trying to help him. Obviously he knew her. She had some affinity for her, and she seemed to be a kind-hearted woman. Was there something beyond just road rage?
PINSKY: Yes, there's something far more going on. And like I said, there has to be another explanation. To call this road rage is a misnomer. It is just not what this is. LEMON: And you said psychological problems and drug problems or what
have you, but just -- is there anything beyond that, that you can point to, that could be a possibility?
PINSKY: Not that we know yet. See, unfortunately, I don't even want to speculate because this poor family gets attacked by social media with all sorts of bizarre speculations. I mean, I already offered one that I've heard a couple of times just tonight. But the fact is the nature of that relationship is still unclear. She did know this was a youth in trouble. To what extent she knew and why she was trying to help, we just really don't know.
But in there is going to be the information we need to understand why this kid erupted the way he did, why she went back to try to engage with him. None of that makes any sense right now.
LEMON: OK.
PINSKY: And it's because we don't have enough information.
LEMON: All right. Thank you for clearing that up and talking more about that.
Let's talk about Bill Cosby right now. We're going to hear from two more accusers later on in tonight's show.
Do you think that we could still hear from more women accusing him of rape or assault?
PINSKY: I certainly think it's possible. I mean, you -- who would have thought there would have been this many -- at this point, and that they keep coming -- they keep coming? I think some of them are going to end up to be spurious. I think there is a certain amount of piling on that goes on in this sort of a frenzy, let's call it what it is, but it appears to be a pattern, and it -- although it's again not been proven, this is us speculating in the public-- you know, public court of -- speculation only in the media.
But I do believe we'll see a few more yet, I do, it just -- you know, there's been a trickle, and that trickle has not yet stopped or slowed even.
LEMON: Dr. Drew Pinsky, thank you very much.
PINSKY: You bet.
LEMON: Coming up, the highly anticipated return of Eddie Murphy at "Saturday Night Live," during the 40th anniversary show. It was not without controversy. We're going to talk about that. How exactly was Cosby involved. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Tonight a combustible combination, Bill Cosby, comedian Eddie Murphy and "Saturday Night Live's" 40th anniversary celebration on Sunday night. There's been a lot of talk about Eddie Murphy's brief and low-key appearance. He did reprise any of the great characters from his old sketches, but apparently he had the chance to perform something, and he didn't do it.
Comedian Norm McDonald, also a former cast member, said that he attempted to get Murphy to play Bill Cosby in a celebrity "Jeopardy" skit, tweeting, "Eddie decides the laughs are not worth it. He will not kick a man when he's down."
Cosby, who has been accused of sexual abuse by more than 20 women released this statement to NBC News. He says, "I am very appreciative of Eddie and I applaud his actions." But that's not where this ends. Director Judd Apatow, a harsh critic of Cosby since allegations against him began to mount. Tweeted this today. He says, "What? He's a rapist. That is not loyalty. It is choosing to support a rich rapist over 30 women -- 30 victims."
And he went on to say this, "By the way, in case you forgot Cosby likes to knock people unconscious, and then bleep them, then he intimidates them into silence." Cosby was played by Keenan Thompson in the "Jeopardy" skit, a reference to the allegations from his accusers that they were plied with alcohol. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's hear what this celebrity has to say about his favorite cocktail.
KEENAN THOMPSON, COMEDIAN, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE": OK, now, this --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, dear, god, no. No, no, no. Oh dear god, no, I'm very sorry. We filmed that in June.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: All right. So Keenan played that instead of Eddie. And new Cosby accusers are now coming forward tonight.
So I'm joined exclusively by attorney Gloria Allred and her clients Casey and Lisa Lotte Lublin.
Thank you, ladies, for joining us. What do you think? Was he protecting someone who is -- who you -- you deem him to be a rapist, right? As Judd Apatow say, a rich rapist?
GLORIA ALLRED, ATTORNEY: Well, I think that it's fair to say that he has nobody to blame but himself for the accusations against him, and if in fact Eddie Murphy is saying that he does not want to kick a man when he's down if in fact he is down, Bill Cosby, he's no one to blame but himself.
Why doesn't he stand up and instead of making jokes about whether or not he is putting anything in a woman's drink, then I think what he should do is come back and acknowledge each and every accusation made against him, and say I deny it or it's true or whatever he wants to say, but face it, instead of telling a joke.
LEMON: All right.
Casey, can I start with you? Your situation is not unlike many other stories that we have heard from the accusers of Bill Cosby. First you didn't -- you didn't have much interaction with him. You were an assistant to an agent at the William Morris Agency who was his personal appearance agent, right?
KACEY, BILL COSBY ACCUSER: Yes, that's right.
LEMON: And then he started to contact you outside of the office.
KACEY: That's correct.
LEMON: What happened?
KACEY: He started contacting me outside of the office by calling me at home. I had not given him my home contact information. So, it was never clear how he got that information, but he was who he was. He was the agent I worked where he was his top client. He was one of the top clients at the agency, and so it is one of the things I didn't question. And it was more in, you know, very much in a friendly kind of a uncle...
LEMON: Yes.
KACEY: ... fatherly kind of way (ph).
LEMON: But then he invited you to dinner at his home, and he said he wanted you to go over see a scene (ph)...
KACEY: Yes.
LEMON: ... and then there was a kissing scene.
KACEY: Yes.
LEMON: It had the -- it was a kissing part at the end of the scene.
KACEY: At the end of a scene.
LEMON: OK.
KACEY: That's correct. Right.
LEMON: And so what happened?
KACEY: Well, that the -- the end of the scene was to end with a passionate kiss between a man and a woman, and I was very uncomfortable with that ending, and wasn't very cooperative with the kissing part. So, he had me do it several times over. And each time I sort of, you know, would turn my head away, and he would be pressing himself against me to, you know, come in closer for the passionate kiss. It was -- that was a very uncomfortable situation. I was not sure, you know.
LEMON: So, that part only the kiss, the uncomfort, that was the only -- the only thing that happened during that encounter?
KACEY: Yes, in that encounter.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: And then he invited you for lunch...
KACEY: Right.
LEMON: ... at the Bel-Air Hotel, correct?
KACEY: Yes. Right.
LEMON: And then he said that you -- in his suite.
KACEY: Yes.
LEMON: He said you needed to relax, again, that's according to you and then...
KACEY: Yes.
LEMON: ... he gave you a white pill?
KACEY: Yes. That's correct.
LEMON: What happened then?
KACEY: Well, we also were brought -- wine and food were brought in and the white pill. And I don't have exact recollection of what happened after that.
LEMON: Yes.
KACEY: What recollection I have is being in the living room and having the pill and the -- the wine and when I come to, I'm in the bed, and he's there, naked beneath his robe, and when he answered the door, I'd like to say when he answered the door, he was in his bathrobe and slippers which is unusual, but this was, you know, in his suite. I thought that we were having lunch outside of the suite, but it turned out that he was having lunch brought in...
LEMON: Yes.
KACEY: ... and I mention that because when I do recall waking up so to speak, I saw the slippers on the floor, and that was just odd to me. I was thinking, "Why am I seeing these slippers on the floor, lotion on the - and lotion on the night stand and Mr. Cosby with an open robe.
LEMON: And you wanted to take legal action back then?
KACEY: I did.
LEMON: Did you tell anyone then?
KACEY: I did, yes. LEMON: And you left the William Morris Agency for that?
KACEY: I did leave the William Morris Agency.
LEMON: And what did you tell?
KACEY: I am -- I actually did speak with someone at the William Morris Agency but I sought legal counsel and I was highly discouraged. I was told that I would become tabloid fodder, and that his power and influence was far too great, that my family and I would be put under such scrutiny that it would -- that it would just be, you know, devastating, and that there was -- I would have no chance to be believed. And quite frankly...
LEMON: Yes.
KACEY: ... at that time, I had absolutely no idea that there was anyone other than myself. This was at the height of the...
LEMON: Of his fame.
KACEY: ... of his fame.
LEMON: And you thought...
KACEY: I thought...
LEMON: And you thought that you were alone.
KACEY: I was alone and I'm carrying the burden of the secret America's favorite father.
LEMON: And Lise, you did -- I'm sure you felt that you were alone as well. This was in 1989, 23 years old, you met him through a modeling agency, right? And then after what -- couple of meetings with him and you found yourself in Las Vegas at the Hilton Hotel, you said, you were not a drinker, but he gave you something to drink. What happened?
LISE-LOTTE LUBLIN, BILL COSBY'S ACCUSER OF SEXUAL ASSAULT: Yes, he -- he wanted to do an improvisation, and he asked me to come up, so I did. And he said, why don't you -- he fix the drink and said drink this because it's going to help you to relax. I said I wasn't a drinker. He insisted. I trusted him. He is America's dad, and I drank it.
Almost immediately, he turned around and made another one and brought it to me, and I drank that one as well. Within a few minutes, I was dizzy, and he is asking me to come sit next to him or in front of him, he's sitting on the edge of the couch, and I sit on the end table, and he scoots his legs on the sides of each one of my arms, I can feel them...
LEMON: Yes.
LUBLIN: ... and I started thinking to myself as I'm sitting here, "Do I leave my arms on my side, do I put my arms up on his thighs," and then saying to myself, "Why am I thinking that?"
LEMON: Yes.
LUBLIN: You know, what I mean, this is awkward. Why should I be touching him or feeling his skin?
LEMON: You had never experienced a blackout. So you didn't know what happened?
LUBLIN: I had no idea?
LEMON: What do you think caused it? What do you think happened?
LUBLIN: I definitely believe he drugged my dead (ph) alcohol.
LEMON: Yes.
LUBLIN: I don't believe anything from my experience for two days. That's how it is for me. I don't know how I got home, and I don't know how my car got home. But everything was there when I woke up. And for me, it felt like it had been the two days. I don't know if I blacked that out, maybe I remembered something, and I couldn't cope with it and just shut that out of my life. It just didn't exist for me
LEMON: Yes.
GLORIA ALLRED, ATTORNEY: And Don, let me just say, too, that if in fact they were sexually assaulted after they were drugged. If he put a drug in their drink or as he did with Lise, apparently put it under her tongue and made her swallow it, she -- excuse me, Kacey, because -- Kacey has indicated in the past that what she wanted to do, she did want to take that pill...
LEMON: Yes.
ALLRED: ... but then she thought, "OK, if I put it in my mouth, as he's asking me to do the I can run to the restroom and spit it out, can make an excuse to go there," but unfortunately, he didn't let her do it. He said, you got to swallow it, is what she alleges.
LEMON: Yes.
ALLRED: So, that's sexual violence if a person is drugged and then sexually assaulted the Centers for Disease Control calls it is sexual violence.
LEMON: Yes.
ALLRED: And that is very, very serious
LEMON: Why are you coming forward now?
LUBLIN: Honestly, I didn't know what happened for 25 years. When I saw the reports of all of the women, my husband came to me and said, "You understand that these women are saying the same story you told me when we got married." LEMON: Yes.
LUBLIN: He said, but they're telling the rest of the story?
LEMON: What do you want to happen now?
LUBLIN: I am fighting the statue of limitations in Nevada.
LEMON: Yes.
LUBLIN: I have Irene Bustamante Adams is working for the statute. There's bill that...
LEMON: The Assemblywoman there...
(CROSSTALK)
LUBLIN: Yes. Assemblywoman. She's already got the bill in place. We're hoping to get as many people possible to testify in Carson City, and we have a petition on change.org, and we have hundreds of people that are signing this petition.
LEMON: Yes.
ALLRED: And that's really important, Don, because so many people are saying, "Well, I mean, these allegations are not proven." Well, all of the women would like their day in court.
LEMON: Yeah.
ALLRED: And -- and that's why we need to change the statue of limitations, so that there is - they are not time-barred from filing a lawsuit and proceeding with their case.
LEMON: And that's what you're fighting for, and we thank you and we applaud your courage. We appreciate your time and all (ph). Well...
KACEY: Thank you.
LUBLIN: Thank you.
LEMON: Thank you, Gloria.
ALLRED: Thank you.
LEMON: Thank you very much. CNN has not been able to independently confirm Cosby's accusers' (ph) allegations while his attorneys responded to the initial accusations. They haven't responded to more recent allegations including the two newest ones in February. We'll continue to follow the story.
Up next, it is big week for "American Sniper." The film is nominated for best picture of the Oscars this Sunday, but the real-life drama is playing out in the courtroom with the defense -- with defense takes part to the picture of a deeply disturbed marine. More on that next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Just days before the Oscar ceremony where the blockbuster movie "American Sniper" may walk away with top honors, the defense rest in the "American Sniper" murder trial. See this. Ed Lavandera was in the courtroom.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT IN DALLAS BUREAU: This is the picture Eddie Ray Routh's attorneys want the jury to see the image of a decorated (ph) marine before he descended into darkness gripped by demons and psychosis. His family is helpless to stop it. Laura Beil wrote about Routh's mental health struggles in a book titled "The Enemy Within."
LAURA BEIL, AUTHOR OF "THE ENEMY WITHIN": But then it was sort of like watching a car crash in slow motion. You can see it -- things getting worse and worse, but you -- you -- you feel powerless for help.
LAVANDERA: Psychiatrist Mitchell Dunn detailed Routh's journey through psychiatric treatment July 2011. He's diagnosed with psychotic disorder, and PTSD. The month another hospital stay once again doctors say he shows signs of psychosis. In September 2012, Routh is diagnosed as having major depressive disorder with psychotic features and January 2013, just a week before the murders, doctors say he's paranoid and psychotic.
Routh believed "American Sniper" Chris Kyle and his friend, Chad Littlefield were hybrid pig people out to get him. That's what Routh told Dr. Dunn during a six-hour interview last year inside the Stephenville (ph) Jail where he's being held. Dunn says Routh is delusional that he believed some of his co-workers at a cabinet shop where he worked were cannibals and believed pigs were taking over the earth.
But Dunn also says Routh told him this about the killings, "As soon as I did it, I realized I made a mistake." But prosecutors say this is the picture of Routh the jury should see, smoking from the hookah (ph), ignoring the calls to stop abusing drugs and alcohol. CNN legal analyst, Mark O'Mara says this is a powerful view for the jury.
MARK O'MARA, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I think the jurors can look at this and say, "You can't come in to us," and say, "I had these drugs from the doctor, and these are not from the doctor," but let's consider them all, and let me off for a murder case. I don't believe the jurors can look at it that way.
LAVANDERA: Chris Kyle never fully knew the depth of Eddie Ray Routh's psychosis. Routh's mother testified, again, and she said, she never told the Navy SEAL, her son had held his girlfriend at knifepoint or was admitted to the V.A. Hospital. The prosecutor asked her, "You didn't think that would be useful information maybe information that would have saved Chris Kyle's life after a painful long pause, Routh's mother said, "It didn't occur to me at that time."
Defense lawyers rested their case right after Eddie Ray Routh told the judge he will not testify.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LAVADENRA: And Don, there will be two more medical experts that testify on behalf of the prosecution tomorrow. They're expected to draw a link between Eddie Ray Routh's drug use causing the psychosis. So, we'll expect to hear more of that tomorrow. Don?
LEMON: Ed Lavandera, thank you very much. Coming up, we'll meet a man who knew Chris Kyle, a fellow SEAL who trained him. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: We'll discuss the American Sniper trial more now. I want to bring in Brandon Webb. He is a former Navy SEAL who trained Chris Kyle. He's also the author of "The Red Circle."
So, let's talk about this Brandon. If Chris had known of about Eddie Ray Routh that he was troubled, would he have offered to hep him you think?
BRANDON WEBB, FORMER NAVY SEAL, SNIPER INSTRUCTOR: I think if -- if Chris had it really known the true nature of -- of Eddie Ray Routh and the history of -- of violent behavior and this is a guy that had spent a couple of times in a mental institution. I think Chris would have never in a million of years taken -- taken that guy out to the range that day.
And I've said it over and over that it's a -- it's a tragic that the mother who obviously cared for her son just left that critical piece of information out. There's no doubt in my mind that Chris Kyle is alive today if he -- if he knew about the history - the true history of Eddie Routh.
LEMON: If the mom had said something?
WEBB: Yeah, absolutely.
LEMON: And you say that Routh is the example of everything that's wrong with V.A. and the military. What do you mean by that?
WEBB: Well, you have to look at the situation where the Marine Corps, there's a period of time there where they lowered the standards, and, you know, when you look at Routh's history in the Marine Corps, he has a history of violence, alcohol abuse, drug abuse, the -- all the former Marine Corps veterans that served with -- with Routh have come out and said, "Look this guy is -- had a history of violent behavior, mental instability."
And you look at a guy that gets out and then goes to the V.A. in Dallas which in 2004 V.A. inspector general called the V.A. in Dallas the worst facility in the nation.
LEMON: Yes.
WEBB: So, you know I just think, again, there's all this stop that could have, you know, these checkpoints that could have, you know, identified this behavior and possibly prevented Chris Kyle's death...
LEMON: Yes.
WEBB: ... and Mr. Littlefield's death as well.
LEMON: Do you think though that Brandon that this was a case of PTSD?
WEBB: No. I think this is -- this is a -- people, you got to look at, you know, PTSD has become a buzzword in the media and to me this is a clear case of someone who had a severe mental disorder, and posttraumatic stress and...
LEMON: Yes.
WEBB: ... you know, somebody with a serious mental disorder, and exhibiting symptoms of schizophrenia very -- two very different things.
LEMON: All right. I want you to standby Brandon. I want to bring in now Tim Xeriland, he's a neighbor of Eddie Ray Routh who employed him in odd jobs. Thank you for coming on, Tim. I understand that you tried...
TIM XERILAND, NEIGHBOR OF EDDIE RAY ROUTH: Yes.
LEMON: ... to help Eddie by creating odd jobs for him. What did you do?
XERILAND: That is correct. So, he was kind of a guy just hanging around the neighborhood pretty aimless. His mother was trying to help him out. I lived on a big piece of property in old house. So, there's always work to be done. So, I just hired him to do some odd jobs around the house so to help him out.
LEMON: Yes. How did he do with them? Did he take direction, follow orders, complete the job?
XERILAND: He was pretty unreliable. I mean, he seemed like he had very good intentions. He'd be -- and I'm going to be there first thing in the morning, and when the rubber met the road, he really didn't make things happen.
LEMON: Yes. You said that he was fixated with a gun at your house. Tell us about that.
XERILAND: Yes, so, when he did some work inside my house, I had some military memorabilia. In particular, I had a shadow box, inside that shadow box, there was a handgun and he was particularly focused on that. He had a lot of questions about it. He actually wants me to take it out -- of him -- out of that shadow box, so he could hold it, which I didn't do.
At the time, I wasn't really understanding the significance of the -- of the whole thing, but when the prosecutor gave their opening speech, they talked about the -- the importance of Chris Kyle's handgun...
LEMON: Yes.
XERILAND: ... and how Eddie bypassed a lot of other guns on the scene to -- to get that particular gun. He took the time to load it and to leave the scene with it. And Mr. Dave (ph) had told came to bear when I -- I found that was the exact make and model gun that I had in that shadow box that Eddie was focused on.
And it could just be a coincidence, but it's a pretty big coincidence, and I think it gives some credence to the prosecutor's contention that Eddie was in control over of some of his faculties on the day of the murders.
LEMON: You said, he was pretty unreliable, but did you notice a change from the time meeting him until the time that he -- he -- that he did the killing?
XERILAND: Sure. When I first met him, he's really a kind of happy-go- lucky-guy, really lackadaisical. As I got closer to the time, he became -- I did notice a change in his behavior. He was much more on edge, nervous, wired, I would say.
LEMON: So, what did you think when you heard about it?
XERILAND: I was completely shocked. I -- I didn't even register it at first until I actually saw the photo, if you're on the screen, and there was a - I felt my blood turn cold type of moment.
LEMON: Do you think that he was capable of planning something like this? You knew that he had problems. You said he was unreliable. There was a progression over time of him being more unstable, but do you think he was capable of planning this?
XERILAND: Sure. As I've - I have described him before as a kind of a Forrest Gump type of guy who's just free floating out there. There's a saying in Texas, if you were bacon, he wouldn't even sizzle. So, any notion that he had plotted or planned things really doesn't apply (ph) in the face of reality.
Cognitively speaking, I don't see him developing any kind of complex plan. I believe when he got into that truck, that morning with Chris Kyle, nobody knew it was going to happen, including Eddie.
LEMON: Brandon, do you believe same way?
WEBB: Yeah, absolutely. And I -- I think it's important to look at, you know, Chris Kyle and the man and his mission was to help veterans and...
LEMON: Yes.
WEBB: ... the people of Texas are amazing, but, you know, I want to put out a challenge, you know, the Dallas facility is the worst facility, the V.A. in Dallas in America, and if we want to make a real positive difference in -- in honor Chris Kyle, then, you know, I challenge the people of Dallas to really put pressure on -- on their elected officials to turn that V.A. facility around. LEMON: Brandon Webb, Tim Xeriland, thanks, both -- gentlemen, thank
you very much.
WEBB: Thanks.
LEMON: We come right back, Hollywood's biggest night is this Sunday. So, what is that makes us so in love with movies? Why do we love the movies so much? The answer may surprise you. It's coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Part of why we love movies so much is because they are an escape, a fantasy, the tricky part for filmmakers is keeping that fantasy alive. They want the audience to come along for the ride. CNN's (ph) Stephanie Elam has more now.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: In Hollywood, a true story doesn't necessarily mean nonfiction.
PAUL DERGARABEDIAN, MOVIE AND TV ANALYST: These films are accurate portrayal. It's just based on a true story, and that very senescence there that -- that phrase means that it is open to interpretation.
ELAM: In addition to "American Sniper" three more of this year's Oscar nominated films are based on real people. "Selma"...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're (ph) not asking, we're demanding to give us the vote.
ELAM: ... the "Imitation Game."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It doesn't matter how smart you are. Enigma is always smarter.
ELAM: And the "Theory of Everything."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We do...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know what's coming. It took effect to everything.
ELAM: But even if we know what's coming, how far from the truth do the stories stray?
JEFFREY ZACKS, DEPARTMENT OF PSYCHOLOGY PROFESSOR (ph): We have really hard time keeping the film world separate from the real world because our brains are not very good at source memory. So, we combine information from sources promiscuously.
ELAM: Poetic license doesn't turn moviegoers away.
"American Sniper," "Selma," both getting a lot of comments about them not being true to history. Have you heard either of these movies? DERGARABEDIAN: Not really, but for any filmmaker, if people are talking about their movie whether it's -- it was inaccurate or accurate, that controversy, that conversation can only bolster that film's profile and its box office. So, you kind of have to give them a little -- the filmmakers a little leeway.
ELAM: That's called the screenplay and that's why we look to Hollywood for some of the best stories ever told.
Stephanie Elam, CNN, Hollywood.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: Thanks, Stephanie. The countdown has begun to Hollywood's biggest night, and we're going to bring you all of the red carpet action live, so make sure you join me and CNN's Michaela Pereira -- New Day's Michaela Pereira, Sunday beginning at 6.00 p.m. Eastern Time and then after the awards we've got your all-access past to the "A- list parties" plus all the memorable moments our special "and the winner is" starts right after the ceremony.
That is it for us tonight. I'm Don Lemon. Thanks for watching. AC360 starts right now.
