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Don Lemon Tonight
Oscar Snub and Real-Life Trial; Activism Takes Center Stage in Hollywood; Giuliani Clarifies Comments in WSJ; CNN Heroes: Joshau Williams
Aired February 23, 2015 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Oscar turns his back on "American Sniper."
This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.
Bradley Cooper's star power helps the movie earn $400 million worldwide, but what does the sniper snub mean for the real-live trial of Chris Kyle's killer?
I'll talk to retired Navy SEAL who served alongside Kyle and plays himself in the movie.
Plus, here's what happens when celebrity and politics mix.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PATRICIA ARQUETTE, OSCARS BEST SUPPORTING ACTRESS AWARDEE: It's our time to have wage equality once and for all, and equal rights for women in the United States of America.
(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)
NEIL PATRICK HARRIS, HOST, 87TH ACADEMY AWARDS: Welcome to the 87th Oscars. Tonight we honor Hollywood's best and whitest -- sorry, brightest.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Well, talk is cheap, but is Hollywood all talk when it comes to some social issues and the glass ceiling?
Also, you've heard Rudy Giuliani questioned the president's patriotism, but wait until you hear what Anne Coulter has to say about that. She's here with me tonight.
We're going to get into all of that this evening but I want to begin with the sniper snub in Hollywood and the real-life murder trial in a Texas courtroom.
CNN's Alina Machado has that.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ALINA MACHADO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Amid the glitz and the glamour, the A-list celebrities and all the excitement of the red carpet, there's Taya Kyle, the widow of the man who inspired the blockbuster hit "American Sniper."
BRADLEY COOPER, ACTOR, "AMERICAN SNIPER": I've got a military age male on a cell phone watching the convoy, over.
MACHADO: Kyle, dressed in a green gown, stopped to chat with ABC's Robin Roberts about the movie honoring her late husband's life.
ROBIN ROBERTS, ABC REPORTER: Bradley Cooper said he wanted to get it right. Did he?
TAYA KYLE, CHRIS KYLE'S WIDOW: He absolutely got it right. And it's an honor to be here, too. And I appreciate everybody bringing me out here and dressing me up. And it's an experience. For sure.
MACHADO: The 42-year-old mother of two traded Texas for California for the weekend. The experience she describes in a Facebook post, "Surreal, like Cinderella, who scrubs the floor, but has a fairy godmother, Warner Brothers, who got me on a plane and had a dress and jewelry and even the shoes and Spanx waiting for me."
KYLE: I wanted to be here to represent Chris, obviously. And it's not the ideal time to do that, but I still want to embrace everything that he should -- be here to do with me.
MACHADO: The moment, a well-deserved break from here. A courtroom in Stephenville, Texas, where she's been facing Eddie Routh, the man accused of killing her husband Chris and another man. Taya was the first witness to take the stand. She's been in court every single day.
And once the Oscar fairytale ends, she writes, "I have a red-eye flight scheduled to get me back for the trial on Monday morning. I am praying the impending ice storm in Texas doesn't inhibit a safe trip home."
(On camera): That storm did delay the trial, which is expected to resume tomorrow morning. Now as for "American Sniper," even though it received six Oscar nominations, it only took home one, for Best Achievement in Sound Editing. But the most important vote for Taya Kyle is going to come from those jurors in Stephenville when they reach their final decision.
Alina Machado, CNN, Miami.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: All right, Alina.
I want to bring in now Kevin Lacz, a retired Navy SEAL, who served alongside Chris Kyle and plays himself in "American Sniper."
Welcome back to the show. Thanks for joining us again.
KEVIN LACZ, RETIRED NAVY SEAL: Thanks for having me, Don.
LEMON: What's it like knowing that Chris Kyle's widow Taya got to attend the Oscars with Bradley Cooper and was on the red carpet?
LACZ: The experience has been incredible. It's great to see, you know, all that hard work and effort and Chris' story being told on such a large scale. It's great knowing that I was there on set every day training Bradley to help, you know, mimic Chris and help be Chris and help turn out that performance that got him an Oscar nomination.
LEMON: She is -- she was holding his dog tags. What did this film mean to Chris Kyle?
LACZ: It's Chris' legacy, you know, it's the story of Chris, it's the story of the people he served with, it's the story of veterans that helped, you know, shaped this nation in the 21st century and helped, you know, take the fight to the enemy and do a great job.
LEMON: So you served two tours with Chris, you costarred in the film, you even trained Bradley Cooper on how to shoot and you just mentioned that, you were surprised that "American Sniper" only took home one Oscar for sound editing, were you?
LACZ: Yes, I was happy to watch the awards ceremony last night. I was -- got my SAG card, you know, I got to train Bradley. He -- you know, turned out an Oscar nominated performance. We're up for Best Picture. And you know, the Oscars come and go each and every year. There's going to be an Oscar nomination next year, but there's not always a record-breaking movie like "American Sniper." A top grossing war movie. And it tells the story of Chris and the people that served with him.
LEMON: That's what I was going to say. But, Chris, it brought in over $400 million. The biggest war movie of all time. $400 million worldwide.
Do you think maybe that there is a -- the disconnect between what the public wants and what Hollywood, the so-called liberal Hollywood wants, and it -- you know, it chose something different because of politics, perhaps?
LACZ: Well, I think, you know, "Sniper" at the box office showed that, you know, the American public really wanted that -- wanted that movie. I think there might be a difference between the bags at the Oscars and the rucksacks in Afghanistan, but what the American public wanted was a movie that was true to the spirit of, you know, our military, the spirit of Chris Kyle, the spirit of the team, and the spirit of us as a country and how we, you know, support our troops, not only when they're in the fight but when they come home.
LEMON: So beyond Hollywood, though, you say that it is -- that one of the key things, and maybe one of the most important things about "American Sniper" that -- is that it's bringing veterans' issues to the fore. How can we help veterans have a smoother transition when they come home?
LACZ: I think it starts by knowing what they've gone through and, you know, the cost of the freedom that we're able to share in this country. You know, going overseas, deploying for a large period of time, you know, it's tough on the family, it's tough on individual. So when they come home, do they have opportunities to go back to school, to start a job, to, you know, help their family adapt.
And as long as we're receptive to listen to what they go through, then we can help them out in the part going forward.
LEMON: So you're not really following the trial, are you?
LACZ: I haven't been.
LEMON: Yes. I'm curious, though, how you think the Oscar snub will play down in Texas, though.
LACZ: Yes, I think snub is a tough word. Like I said, I mean, the movie did great. You know, it's a huge movie, it's an impactful movie. I hope that -- you know, the movie doesn't have too much direction as to, you know, the outcome of the trial. And, you know, I stand with, you know, a fair jury and I stand with, you know, people making the right decision and staying under oath and, you know, let justice be served. And, you know, I have faith in Texas and I have faith in our justice system.
LEMON: Thank you, Kevin Lacz. We appreciate it. And thank you for your service.
LACZ: Appreciate it, thank you.
LEMON: I want to get our legal experts to weigh in on this now. Weigh in on the "American Sniper" trial.
Joining me now is Mark Geragos, CNN legal analyst and defense attorney, Kimberly Priest Johnson, defense attorney and former federal prosecutor, and Mark O'Mara, CNN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney.
Good evening to all of you, thanks for being with us.
MARK O'MARA, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Hey, Don, how are you?
KIMBERLY PRIEST JOHNSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY AND FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Thanks.
LEMON: First, Mark O'Mara, "American Sniper" only won one Oscar. Does that say anything about public opinion?
O'MARA: No, I reality don't think it does. You know, like you said, it made an enormous amount of money. There's no question that Chris is looked at as being an American hero. Doesn't have to win it from the Academy to know that every American looks in their heart and sees somebody who is willing to give service to his country. And unfortunately, his life in effect in service for his country as well. I don't care what the Oscars say, Chris is a hero.
LEMON: Kimberly?
JOHNSON: I completely agree with what Mark just said. And in addition, because there's such a narrow issue that this Texas jury is deciding, not whether Eddie Routh killed Chris Kyle and Chad Littlefield, but only whether or not Eddie Routh himself was insane at the time of the killing. I think because of that, what happened at the Oscars has no effect on the jury's decision.
LEMON: Mark Geragos, I ask you the same question. What does this say about public opinion? And I'll take it one step further, what do you think it means for the trial, if anything, down in Texas?
MARK GERAGOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I don't think it means a thing for the trial. I think the jury is going to -- jurors generally get it right if you've had a fair trial. And they're going to get the evidence. They've had the battling experts and whether or not it won the Oscar or didn't win the Oscar is not going to affect anything.
I mean, look, it's a rare movie that grosses that much money and gets some critical acclaim by getting an Oscar nomination. So nobody should feel bad about any of it.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: All right, guys, stick around, please. We have a lot more to talk about when it comes to the "American Sniper" trial and more.
When we come right back, closing arguments expected this week, but has the prosecution made its case against the shooter? Our legal experts go head to head on that.
Plus, the stars wear their hearts on their sleeves on Hollywood's biggest night. Is activism the new black in Hollywood? And will it change anything?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Want to talk more now about the "American Sniper" murder trial, which was postponed today due to bad weather. Scheduled to resume tomorrow, weather permitting. And closing arguments are expected this week.
Back with me, Mark Geragos, Kimberly Priest Johnson and Mark O'Mara.
Mark Geragos, there's nothing from stopping members of the jury from watching the Oscars, seeing Chris Kyle's widow walk down the red carpet with Bradley Cooper, being interviewed on television. Could that have tainted the jury?
GERAGOS: Well, you always -- you always worry about that if you're the defense lawyer. You're thinking to yourself that kind of razzle- dazzle is going to be something that's going to affect jurors. I don't know that that's necessarily the case because in a case like this, it's not a whodunit. You know, they've conceded that he did the shooting.
I mean, it really is going to come down to what's his mental state and under the law in Texas, was he sane at the time? And, you know, I don't know that as much as they want, as a juror wants to kind of have an affinity with Chris Kyle's widow, that that's going to just kind of swing their vote a different way.
LEMON: Right.
GERAGOS: Over the fact that this guy looks to be demonstrably insane at the time.
LEMON: Yes. And this is what I want to know. Hearing her story, you know, and talking about her plight in interviews, you don't think that may have any effect, Kimberly, on a jury if there -- Mark, you do?
O'MARA: Well, I think it was a mistake by the judge to allow them to watch the Oscars. I've had high profile cases where we've been very careful about what they can see and what they can't see. And you know if he gets convicted, one of the points on appeal from an appellate defense attorney is going to say, they were feeling sympathy which they're not supposed to. Were they feeling sympathy for the wife and they never should have watched those Oscars?
LEMON: Yes. Kimberly, you want to weigh in?
JOHNSON: Yes, I disagree with that. You know, I think actually a factor that may have made the jury more sympathetic is seeing his wife every day in trial. She's been very emotional throughout the trial. And, you know, she's a very likeable person. She was very -- very likeable in the movie and she's done lots of interviews post and around the movie.
LEMON: But, Kimberly, they see her here --
JOHNSON: She's a very likeable figure.
LEMON: They see her here in a different light. You know.
JOHNSON: Yes.
LEMON: They see her all dressed up.
GERAGOS: All glammed up.
LEMON: All glammed up. And she said -- she's being portrayed in a different light. Actually they're seeing a different side of her, Kimberly?
JOHNSON: Right. But, again, because there is such a narrow issue at stake here, which really is not -- is only focused on the defendant's mental state. And I agree with what Mark said earlier most jury they want to get it right.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: We got two Marks.
JOHNSON: Yes, Mark Geragos. Most juries want to get it right.
LEMON: Yes. JOHNSON: And they take their role very seriously once they get in
that trial. And I guarantee you they are focused only on Eddie Routh's mental state.
GERAGOS: It's so true.
LEMON: Go ahead, Mark Geragos.
GERAGOS: I was just going to say, it's so true. I mean, you know, the -- as Mark O'Mara had mentioned, you know, he handled some of these high-profile cases, and do them, and there's always -- you're always worried, you're in the trenches and worried that somebody is going to get somehow swayed by this or that, but once they swear an oath, with the exception of what I call stealth jurors who lie their way to get onto the jury, the -- in most cases, jurors try to get it right and really take it seriously.
LEMON: OK. All right.
GERAGOS: I mean, next to military service, the next best thing that we do as a citizen is jury service.
LEMON: Yes. That's supposedly the next most honorable thing.
I want -- let's talk about it, Kimberly, you mentioned, you said it's such a narrow thing because they're talking about a mental state here. I want to talk about something a little bizarre that has come out of this trial. It's a forensic psychiatrist, excuse me, testifying for the defense says, that Routh says he saw people turning into pig human hybrids?
An expert from the state suggested Routh's pig human delusions may have actually come from a scene in "Seinfeld." Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just saw a pig man. A pig man. You know, he was sleeping and then he woke up and he looked at me and he made this horrible sound.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So this is true, this has come up.
Kimberly, you have a master's in psychology. What do you think of this?
JOHNSON: You know this expert talked about the fact that Eddie Routh had a TV in jail and he likely saw this "Seinfeld" episode. And so he is essentially stating that he believes that Eddie Routh is not only is not insane, but that he actually attempted to fake insanity by getting the idea from this television show and then taking it forward.
Now if I'm the defense in this case, and I have an opportunity to present a rebuttal witness once the prosecution closes, I'm going to put my expert back up on the stand and explain that oftentimes people with delusions may in fact get their ideas from circumstances, including a television show that they might see, but that doesn't mean that they're faking their own insanity.
LEMON: Mark O'Mara, I have a little bit of time. I'll give you -- Mark O'Mara, I'll give you -- go ahead. Go ahead, quickly.
O'MARA: My concern -- my concern is what happens was when he talked to the officers --
(CROSSTALK)
O'MARA: My concern as to what Routh did, when he talked to the officers right afterwards and said, you know, I'm feeling delusional and schizophrenic. That I think is going to be the death nel because when you are insane, you don't really know that you're insane and you don't come up with excuses for insane behavior.
LEMON: All right.
Go ahead, Mark Geragos. Quick -- give me a quick response here.
GERAGOS: Well, I was -- I don't disagree with that at all. I think that both of those things are true. I think it's true that they get their ideation from all kinds of sources. And I could tell you that by the 55-gallon drum of crazy communications I receive here in the office, and I can also tell you that at the same time, there is something to be said for the idea that he said at the time, I'm feeling schizophrenic. That's generally the last thing that somebody in the throes of schizophrenia is going to say.
LEMON: Thank you, lady and gentlemen. Appreciate it.
JOHNSON: Thank you.
LEMON: Equal pay for women or voting rights. NSA surveillance and a plea to banish the stigma of shame about suicide.
Are the Oscars the right place to bring up political and social issues? We'll talk about that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: It has become an Oscars tradition, along with the beautiful gown and the tuxedoes, winners and presenters bring their often liberal leaning political and social issues to the ceremony. And why not? They have a giant audience, millions of viewers around the world.
Here's CNN's Stephanie Elam.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Oscars, Hollywood's biggest night. And for several winners, the chance to make a political statement on the world's biggest stage. The activism starts before the show even begins. On Twitter, a
popular topic, #askhermore. A call for questions more substantive than, what are you wearing? But even more pointed Patricia Arquette after winning her Best Supporting Actress demanding gender wage equality.
ARQUETTE: It's our time to have wage equality once and for all and equal rights for women in the United States of America.
ELAM: Her speech bringing wild applause from Meryl Streep and Jennifer Lopez.
The overriding theme of the night, speaking up for the unheard. Screenwriter Graham Moore wins an Oscar for "The Imitation Game."
GRAHAM MOORE, WINNER, BEST ADAPTED SCREENPLAY: When I was 16 years old, I tried to kill myself, because I felt weird and I felt different and I felt like I did not belong. And now I'm standing here, and so I would like for this moment to be for that kid out there who feels like she's weird or she's different or she doesn't fit in anywhere.
MATTHEW BELIONI: The Oscars are a huge platform. You have people tuning in all over the world, who may not care about a particular issue, but being exposed to it might -- some, you know, not a lot, but maybe some people are going to become more active in it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Veterans Crisis line this is Robert.
ELAM: Dana Perry, who co-produced the Oscar-winning documentary short "Crisis Hotline: Veterans Press One," pleads for people who have lost someone to suicide to banish the shame stigma.
DANA PERRY, WINNER, BEST DOCUMENTARY SHORT: I want to dedicate this to my son, Evan Perry, we lost him to suicide. We should talk about suicide out loud.
ELAM: And after a powerful performance of their now Oscar-winning song "Glory" Common and John Legend take advantage of the spotlight.
JOHN LEGEND, WINNER, BEST SONG: There are more black men under correctional control today than were under slavery in 1850.
ELAM: But not everything during the broadcast is politically correct. As he was presenting the Oscar for Best Picture, Sean Penn says this.
SEAN PENN, ACTOR: Who gave this son of a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) his green card? "Birdman."
ELAM: And social media erupts. Director Alejandro Inarritu dismisses the controversy backstage.
ALEJANDRO INARRITU, WINNER, BEST DIRECTOR: I didn't find him offensive. I think it was very funny.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sean Penn and Alejandro Inarritu are close friends. I just think that Sean Penn didn't really realize how that kind of a joke would go over.
ELAM: Many critics of the ceremony say the same of the show's producers. A four-hour program short on laughs and ratings down nearly 20 percent from last year.
Stephanie Elam, CNN, Hollywood.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: All right. Let's talk more about this, Anthony Breznican is a senior writer at "Entertainment Weekly."
Did I say your name properly?
"Access Hollywood's" Sharon Maxman is also here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good job.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: Anthony was with me last night. And Sharon was with me on the red carpet. By the way, I have to just show how beautiful you looked yesterday in your chartreuse gown on the red carpet. There we are yesterday evening.
SHARON WAXMAN, ACCESS HOLLYWOOD: Well, you were looking very dashing yourself. Look at that.
LEMON: Yes.
WAXMAN: That's very -- that's nice.
LEMON: All right.
WAXMAN: Who were you wearing, Don?
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: I was wearing Armani. But let's get to the serious stuff, let's get to what everyone is talking about because Patricia Arquette really brought down the house last night with her acceptance speech for Best Actress in a Supporting Role. She demanded equal pay for women. Do you think the Oscars is the right forum for this, Sharon?
WAXMAN: Well, yes, I do. And if it is relevant to the movie that they worked on, or if it's something personal that they have been through, I like to hear what that personal connection is. And when Patricia Arquette talked about equal pay for women, what I thought about -- first of all, she's playing this struggling mother in "Boyhood," but also, it brought to mind, remember, we just recently heard about those leaked Sony e-mails --
LEMON: Right.
WAXMAN: -- in which they talked about the disparity in pay between the actresses and their male counterparts. And so that is still fresh in the minds of many of the actresses that were sitting there in that audience.
LEMON: And to --
WAXMAN: So yes, I do think it is relevant. Yes.
LEMON: To prove your point here, look -- this is Jennifer Lopez and Meryl Streep. I mean, they clearly approved of her speech and gave one of the --
WAXMAN: Yes.
LEMON: You know, best cutaways. We have the video of it. There it is. They've gotten out of their seat. Look, Jennifer is yelling, yes, and she didn't get of her seat but leaning forward, screaming yes. And as you said, it started with the Sony hacking. Amy Pascal's e-mails. She admitted that she paid women lower. She said, you know, I'm not going to say, hey, I want to give you more money. Do you think that this is -- is it OK even if it, you know, it comes at a cost to their own careers, Anthony?
ANTHONY BREZNICAN, WEEKLY STANDARD: Well, yes, I think all anyone really wants is to be seen and to be heard, whether you're an actor who's up for an Academy Award or just an ordinary person and this is a remarkable platform.
LEMON: Could it make a difference?
BREZNICAN: Nothing else. Well, sure. I mean, what's the point of being seen and heard if you have nothing to say? And I think the fact that we're discussing this right now shows it makes a difference. But, you know, Don, you -- I don't want to call you up but you introduced this segment by saying liberal-leaning politics, and I can't really think of anything last night that was actually liberal.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Liberal-leaning. Right.
BREZNICAN: But they don't -- you don't think -- do conservatives believe that women don't deserve equal pay? Do conservatives not believe in civil rights? Do conservatives have a problem with talking about depression and teenage suicide?
These are issues that matter to these people and as Sharon said, they do tie into the stories, they told. So why not take, out of your 45 seconds, to speak to the world, a few seconds to say something that means something to you and may mean something to someone else who doesn't have a voice.
LEMON: Well, I said that because conservatives often complain about the issues and about these types of shows being issue-orientated. They think it's the wrong place and that was the reason I said that, yes.
BREZNICAN: Well, I think that;s because --
LEMON: Go ahead,.
BREZNICAN: I think that's because they don't like to be bothered by these issues. They rather -would rather not be confronted by them.
LEMON: Yes.
BREZNICAN: And that's -- I think that's a shame because by talking about these things they're not really Republican or Democrat or conservative or liberal issues. They're just issues that people have. By talking about them, we shed a little light and we clear them away. Tha's how you solve societal problem. That's how you make a connection to another human.
LEMON: Sharon -- I want to bring in Sharon Waxman who is the editor- in-chief from the "Rat" but she can speak to this as well.
We're having conversation here about and issues these ceremonies,
Sharon , you want to weigh in on that. He said he doesn't think Anthony says he doesn't think it's necessarily about liberal conservative.
WAXMAN: I think there is an impression that these are liberal issues and Journal but I agree with Anthony that the -- the issues that we're talking about last night are cut across a lot of topic here, but certainly if you're talking about rights for gay people if you're talking about women's rights, those are absolutely perceived to be more democratic issues than Republican issues. I certainly think if somebody from American Sniper would have won and stood up and said, we really feel like America is the greatest country in the world and we should support our veterans, or something like that, then we might have had a different reaction on social media from the right-leaning public.
But, I think it -- there is a thing in which -- people in the public often find it annoying that celebrities use their celebrity to speak out on issues that are dear to their hearts. But I think that the Oscars are something different, because in this instance, these were actors namely talking about issues that related to the performances that they gave, and the reasons that they were being celebrated and being bestowed with those Oscars at the ceremony. So, you know Patty Arquette plays a working class mom in Boyhood, I think it's completely valid for her to bring up that issue and why it should touch a nerve -- kind of surprises me.
LEMON: Let me say something, because this is nothing new, I mean 1973, this is one moment that we think of Marlon Brando declined the Oscar for best actor in The Godfather and Sacheen Littlefeather attended the Oscars in his place and said that, he could not accept the award as he was protesting Hollywood portrayal of native Americans in film. So, that was a political protest even back then, this is nothing new.
WAXMAN: Yeah.
ANTHONY BREZNICAN, SENIOR WRITER, ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: And we're still talking about it 40 years later. SHAUN ROBINSON, ACCESS HOLLYWOOD CORRESPONDENT: I think a lot of it
has to do with how preachy people get.
LEMON: Yeah.
ROBINSON; I think that -- you know, when you're talking about -- when Patricia Arquette stands up there and says, equal pay for women. I mean, who's going to say, no, I don't believe that. But when you start -- I remember being in the audience when Michael Moore won his Oscar and -- I can't -- for what?
WAXMAN: Fahrenheit 911.
ROBINSON: Yes, that's right. Fair enough.
BREZNICAN: No, it was actually Bowling for Columbine.
LEMON: Bowling. It was bowling -- ROBINSON: Was it Bowling for Columbine? Anyway, he got up there on
stage and then Michael Moore, typical fashion, he was very passionate, and a lot of people thought he came off as a little, you know, a kind of very angry.
LEMON: And it was preachy. They thought it was preach, yeah.
ROBINSON: I think they even played the music, right.
LEMON: Right.
ROBINSON: And so --
BREZNICAN: And he was right.
ROBINSON: It depends on -- you know, how it plays in the audience and how it plays both (ph)
LEMON: I got have several things I want to talk about. You guys can keep it quick because -- let's talk first about Sean Penn and the green card comment. Many people took -- or some people offense to it. Their friends, guy wasn't, he wasn't offended by. So why it is everybody else offended? Sharon?
WAXMAN: I mean, I -- I don't think there's anything offensive about it. He was making a joke. And I -- and I think -- I mean, Sean Penn's politics are not exactly a secret to anybody. I don't think that he's really for keeping the immigrants out or keeping Mexicans...
LEMON: Yeah.
WAXMAN: Out of the country or talented people in any way, shape, or forms. So I think you're just looking for a fight at that point.
LEMON: Does this --
WAXMAN: Sean Penn and he intend to annoy people, but though.
LEMON: But doesn't he speak out about people who are just want to be outraged for the sake of being outraged, Anthony...
WAXMAN: I'm with you.
LEMON: We were seating there, I heard at the end of the show, it didn't strike me as out I just thought, were their friends and friends actually joke like that, like, lighten up people.
BREZNICAN: Yeah. I mean, I think it was probably an ill-conceived joke on Sean Penn's part, because he's making a kind of -- like a tough little tormenting joke that you would make to your friend in front of millions of people who may not understand that relationship. But, I do think -- look, it probably wasn't the best taste but, it's the kind of thing that you waste a lot of outrage on, when you could be directing that toward some actual outrage. Toward somebody who's actually said something profane and offensive.
LEMON: Alright. We got to go. Thank you (inaudible)
WAXMAN: I think we live in a -- I was just say we live in a culture of outrage that is often completely ridiculous.
LEMON: It is. It's time. I'm so over it. Alright...
BREZNICAN: But also, people don't want to hear something. There are people who don't want to hear anything and if that's the case, go live in the woods with the other crack pots.
LEMON: Up next.
BREZNICAN: We like the pots.
LEMON: Hollywood's stunning lack of diversity. Thanks, everyone. Not a single actor of color nominated for an Oscar this year. A situation so glaring that Neil Patrick Harris joked about it at the beginning of the ceremony.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NEIL PATRICK HARRIS, ACTOR: Welcome to the 87th Oscars. Tonight, we honor Hollywood's best and whitest -- sorry -- brightest.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Lack of diversity in Hollywood and at the Oscars in particular was noticeable at the ceremony, not a single actor of color was up for an award last night. Ava DuVernay the African American director of Selma also did not receive a nomination. I want to talk about this lack of adversity with Sunny Hostin, CNN's legal analyst and former federal prosecutor. Also Victoria Rowell, an actress who starred for years in the soap opera, The Young and the Restless and who is now suing CBS and the producers of the show. Good evening, ladies. Thank you for joining me. VICTORIA ROWELL, ACTRESS, THE YOUNG AND THE RESTLESS: Thank for having
us.
LEMON: Victoria, to you first. You were on The Young and the Restless many, many years. What was your experience like? Why are you suing?
ROWELL: Well, my experience was one that was very difficult. I can give you a whole cadre of experiences from separate but equal treatment. The African- American cast having our hair done in a separate room. There were no opportunities for African-Americans to write, direct, produce. I was harassed and I'm suing due to retaliation. I have tried numerous times to dialogue with Sony and CBS and I have not been successful, so I'm suing because I have to...
LEMON: But you just --
ROWELL: There's no other choice.
LEMON: You decided to return in 2010 and -- the -- so the show, why did you do that? You wanted to return.
ROWELL: I asked to return. I asked to return. You know, it's interesting, Don, one wants to be a beneficiary of one's hard work. I have been campaigning for diversity from the beginning, in 1990 when I was introduced as a character that was an illiterate, thief, slash prostitute. I asked why? And I told my agent that this would not be a possibility unless there was an adult, literacy program storyline set forth, and so it was. So, one wants to be a beneficiary of one's hard work. Additionally, I worked with the National Urban League President Marc Morial to get the first black Character that was an illiterate, thief, slash prostitute. I asked writer hired in 2010 - 2011 after a 38-year shut-out. And still, there remains only a single African- American writer.
LEMON: I have to --
ROWELL: No executive producers have ever been hired.
LEMON: I have to get Sunny's response -- CBS response in here. We reached out for a statement they provided this is what they said, "We were disappointed to learn that after leaving the cast of The Young and the Restless, on her own initiative, Ms. Rowell was -- has attempted to rewrite that history through lawyers' letters and a lawsuit that has no merit. We harbor no ill will towards Ms. Rowell but, we will vigorously defend this case. What is the -- Sunny, what do you think of -- of this -- you, you guys are close friends, but you don't represent her. Do you think that this lawsuit will face any challenges?
SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you know, I -- think certainly CBS has made it clear and Sony's has made it clear that they're going to challenge and they're going to respond to the lawsuit. They haven't yet. I've read the lawsuit. I think it's certainly well written. There are a lot of examples that Victoria puts forth in this lawsuit about things that she faced when -- she was there. But when you talk Don, about sort of the larger issues here, of the lack of diversity in daytime programming, the lack of diversity in primetime programming, the lack of diversity -- you know in Hollywood, that is a real issue. And when you talk about daytime soaps, let's face it, 40 percent of the audience is African- American women. Why don't you see more African- American women on the soaps? When you talk about the buying power of African-Americans, we're talking about $6.3 billion in consumer dollars. We know that African-Americans go to the movies more than the general market.
ROWELL: Yes.
HOSTIN: I think it last -- last time was 13.4 times per year, versus 11 times per year, which is the general average. Then why aren't we seeing more diversity in Hollywood? Why is someone like Monique being shut out? I mean, the list goes on and on and on.
LEMON: So, so then the question is what are the solutions? And by the way, Monique is going to be on the show later in the week. We're working it out with her to come on the show. But last night --
HOSTIN: And that is --
LEMON: Last night Neil Patrick Harris, I mean he wasted no time cracking a joke -- you know about race in Hollywood, so tonight we honor the best and the whitest -- I mean, the brightest. And yet Oprah told me that she didn't feel that Selma was snubbed, she didn't think there were issues coming -- when it comes to diversity in Hollywood. So then how do we solve this issue or how should this issue be solved? First to Sunny and then to Victoria.
HOSTIN: You know, I -- think it's -- Oprah, of course, I call her the oracle, I'm a big fan. And certainly, she's entitled to her opinion, but when you look at a movie like Selma that was nominated for best picture yet not nominated for best director. When you look at the performance by David Oyelowo, not nominated for best actor. I'm sorry, there's certainly in my mind, that looks and sounds like a snub.
LEMON: OK. Victoria, I had to go quickly, but go ahead, please.
ROWELL: Yeah, Don. Look, it starts at the executive level. And if you're really talking about restructuring, it has to start in the boardroom. It has to start with hiring other people that are of color, African-Americans, people of color, so that we have the full bloom of what America looks like. You can't have our dollars and not offer any economic reciprocity.
LEMON: OK.
ROWELL: The Young and the Restless is a product that is an exportable product. It's seen in a hundred countries.
LEMON: Yeah.
ROWELL: And the idea that African-Americans make it number one and Bold and Beautiful number two, and there's no economic reciprocity, no executive producers ever in the history...
LEMON: I got to go, Victoria.
ROWELL: And so, Barbara (ph) since 1930. This is unacceptable in 21st century in America.
LEMON: Thank you, Sunny. Thank you, Victoria. We'll talk more about this. We've got a lot more to come on this subject in Hollywood, black and white. Tomorrow I'm going to sit down with Lee Daniels, writer and director of the hit series Empire. And coming up, you heard Rudy Giuliani's comments, questioning President Obama's patriotism. Next, what Ann Coulter has to say about that?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Rudy Giuliani is taking a step back from recent comments questioning President Obama's patriotism. The former New York City mayor writes in the Wall Street Journal, he didn't intend to question the president's motives or the content of his heart. Joining me now, Ann Coulter, conservative columnist and best-selling author of Never Trust a Liberal Over Three -- Especially a Republican. Hi, Ann, we have a lot to get to, OK? So let's -- let's get going.
ANN COULTER, AUTHOR, NEVER TRUST A LIBERAL OVER THREE -- ESPECIALLY A REPUBLICAN: Yes.
LEMON: We know Rudy Giuliani was speaking -- for Scott Walker. He was at the Republican dinner in Wisconsin. And you know what to hear -- put his comments up full screen, with he said, "I know this is horrible, I don't want to say this but, you know he doesn't have the same love of country." So we -- can we gone through that. Do you think the mayor should have been doing that, questioning the president's love of country?
COULTER: Yeah, I don't see what the problem with it is. Liberals are constantly questioning -- you know, conservatism -- a conservative's position on race, I -- re-constantly being called racists. This idea that oh no, when this one case, we can't look at their motives and these red-faced denials -- no, were -- we love our country, we just look like people who don't, we're just naive and inept. Well, OK. Maybe you can start a group of Democrats who aren't naive and inept. I mean, Obama -- how else do you explain he threw away our victory in Iraq, for no reason whatsoever, he sends more troops to Afghanistan. I supposed you could criticize his policy, but if liberals are going to go around constantly questioning conservatives...
LEMON: Students...
COULTER: On other issues, why shouldn't we question their motives on patriotism?
LEMON: Alright. I want to put -- I want to put this up, because he wrote this as a response in The Wall Street Journal. He said, "My blunt language suggesting that president -- the president doesn't love America notwithstanding, I didn't intend to question President's motives or the content of his heart. My intended focus really was the effect of his words and his actions that have on the morale of this country, and how that effect may damage his performance." So, but then he said to CNN's Jim Acosta, he believes what he said, he doesn't regret what he said, he is explaining, didn't really apologize, do you -- do you think that these comments were somehow tinged by race at all?
COULTER: Oh no. Ha, now you're doing it.
LEMON: Come on, I'm asking you question. I didn't -- I'm asking you.
COULTER: You see that -- not at all of course not.
LEMON: I'm not saying that it is. I'm asking you, because you mentioned that. You mentioned race.
COULTER: No, but it does get thrown -- no, Ok. But it does get thrown at conservatives an awful lot and how can -- I mean, why isn't that the exact parallel? You look at what conservatives say and do. Often it's things that I think have absolutely nothing to do with an accusation of racism, in things like, cutting taxes. I think it was -- it was Jesse Jackson or someone said, Republicans say, let's cut taxes, but what they mean is -- you know, let's bring back slavery or something were. It's always -- or Chris Matthews saying that when Romney referred to Obama being from Chicago that, that was racist. Its crazy allegations, but we hear it all the time, 24 hours a day.
LEMON: But his -- his critics are saying that --
COULTER: And I here I think there's a --
LEMON: That he is throwing red meat to people who dislike the president, the better people, the people who say he's a Muslim. Do you think that this -- this could come back to haunt the GOP ahead of 2016? That's a concern from the right.
COULTER: I don't think so. I mean, why are -- you know, when Debbie Wasserman Schultz and the rest of them accuse us of racism, why aren't they throwing red meat to nuts who think Republicans want to bring back slavery.
LEMON: That's it? That was a very short answer Ann Coulter. You use to go --
COULTER: I know --
LEMON: You usually go home longer.
COULTER: Because I'm dying to get to the Oscars.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: You really want to get to the Oscars. Before we get to the Oscars, and I promise you we'll do that. Scott Walker refused to condemn Giuliani's remarks when he was asked about the president. And -- he spoke with me, he said -- you know, I'm not going to do that. But then, I was this comment from tonight, or do we have him on tape this evening? OK, so we know what he said before, we've heard that. Let's listen to him tonight just a few minutes ago. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT WALKER, GOVERNOR OF WISCONSIN: You've seen in the media a lot of talk over the last few days about these self-manufactured, gotcha moments from the media where they want to talk about things that I don't think most Americans want to talk about. Our commitment is going forward, we're going to talk about the things that matter to everyday Americans, were going to leave the non-sense to the media on the side.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: But he was responding to a -- he didn't know the president was Christian or not. And now he has speaking -- tonight in front of the crowd he's saying, those issues, I'm tired talking about it, they don't mean anything, they're unimportant. And now we talk about the real issues.
COULTER: I think that is a great answer and I wish every elected Republican would adopt that. Because he is absolutely right, it drives me crazy during these -- for example, all these presidential debates -- and you know, instead of talking about energy policy or foreign policy, Republicans are always going to get the gay marriage question, the global warming question, endless questions on global warming and -- abortion and school prayer and the death penalty. Now, lets' talk about what we want to talk about, and when they -- or the berthed (ph) questions, oh, my gosh -- I think Republicans should just give that answer, it's a perfectly gentle way of saying, screw you, I'm not answering the question. Just keeps saying, I don't know, let's move on.
LEMON: And you've 30 seconds to talk about the Oscars. What did you want to say about that?
COULTER: 30 seconds?
LEMON: Yes.
COULTER: Well, you know, your entire audience has been waiting for me to talk about the Oscars, as an expert who has never seen the Oscars, except sometimes I tune in the end -- they didn't watched last night. I've never seen the movies and I often write an Oscars' prediction column which is amazingly accurate. I -- of course American Sniper...
LEMON: 10 seconds Ann.
COULTER: Wasn't going to win. Chris Kyle would have to be married, he have to kiss a guy, be a Palestinian sniper, or be a prostitute to win. It had to be Birdman, which is both boring and pretentious from what I've heard, so that is perfect.
LEMON: Why don't you say it like you mean Ms. Ann Coulter...?
COULTER: That was quick.
LEMON: Yeah, it was quick. Ann, thank you. Appreciate you. See you soon. We'll be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Tonight's CNN Heroes recognizes a young man who found his calling in life at an age when most of us were learning to tie our shoes. Joshua Williams learned very early that millions of Americans go hungry every day.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSHUA WILLIAMS, CNN HEROES YOUNG WONDER: First signed in people, has everybody who's in it? When I was four and a half years old, I found my purpose in life. We're going to help around a hundred families. We're going to give them food. I looked for a foundation that would accept somebody my age. I didn't find any. So I came up with the idea of Joshua's Heart Foundation. So are you guys ready?
CROWD: Yeah.
WILLIAMS: Joshua's Heart Foundation has no age limit as long as you're able to pick something up, just come out and help us make a difference.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It feels really good to be here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He did really nice place (ph) to us.
WILLIAMS: Since I started, I have given out over 650,000 pounds of food to over 30,000 individuals.
WILLIAMS: Whoa.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whoa.
WILLIAMS: Whoa.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whoa. WILLIAMS: We're going to do one -- one tuna.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One tuna?
WILLIAMS: One tuna. We need enough for everybody. Right now, we have over 1,200 youth volunteers.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you, Joshua.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Perfect.
WILLIAMS: Thank you. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm grateful to know there's a still young person
that cares for other people.
WILLIAMS: It's very important to develop connections and relationships with these people that we're helping.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: God bless you, you know. God bless you and thank you. WILLIAMS: If you want to make a difference, I have three bit of advice
for you. One, use your passion and purpose in life to help make a change in the community. Two, get your friends to help.
CROWD: One, two, three, (inaudible)
WILLIAMS: And three, never give up.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Nominations for 2015 CNN Heroes open right now. Go to cnnheroes.com.
I'm Don Lemon, thank you so much for watching. See you right back here, tomorrow night. Time to get off the air in (inaudible) AC360.
