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Don Lemon Tonight
Three Men Arrested in New York for Trying to Join ISIS; Interview with Frank Rich; Lack of Diversity at the Oscars; Interview with Director Lee Daniels; New Hit Show "Empire" Generating Buzz
Aired February 25, 2015 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: This is CNN TONIGHT, I'm Don Lemon.
Terror threat in New York City. Three men nabbed on their way to join ISIS. Why New York's top cop says the threat is real. And why the FBI warns of violent extremists in all 50 states.
"New York" magazine's Frank Rich weighs in on that and on Bill O'Reilly under fire.
Plus "Empire" creator Lee Daniels. What he thinks about what's being called the whitest Oscars in years may surprise you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEE DANIELS, CREATOR, "EMPIRE": It's easy to call the race card for me and everybody else. I don't -- I don't call it the race card. It is what it is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Also, what he says about being black in Hollywood.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DANIELS: I'm still pulled over in Beverly Hills. I'm still pulled over.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And his inspiration for one of the hottest shows on television.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DANIELS: That purse and that leopard and that -- those hoops. I mean, come on.
LEMON: Is that you or is that Taraji?
DANIELS: Me.
LEMON: That's you. (LAUGHTER)
DANIELS: Are you kidding me? Are you kidding me?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: We're going to get to all of that tonight, but I want to begin with the New York terror plot.
CNN's Deborah Feyerick is here with more for us.
So, Deborah, you were in the court today for the suspects' arraignments. What did you learn?
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, what we learned is that these two young men were allegedly very intent in creating some sort of a terror act. Their initial goal was to go to Syria. But if they were unsuccessful in reaching Syria, then their objective was simply to carry out attacks here in the United States.
The 19-year-old, he allegedly wanted to go to Syria, but his mother confiscated his passport, so he said instead that he planned to carry out attacks against the military. How would he do that? Well, first he would join -- he would try to funnel information to ISIS, and if he was caught, that's when he had a plan to open fire on U.S. troops.
There was another plan in which he would get money, purchase a gun and then open fire on police officers as well as FBI agents.
The 24-year-old, the older of the two that was in court today, his goal effectively was to get to Syria and if that failed, then he was going to try to get ISIS to sanction an attempt on the president's life.
The third man, he was at a hearing in Florida, he is the money man. He owns kiosks in malls in America where he sells kitchenware. He was providing the money to pay for these tickets as well as arranging a contact person. So if these two succeeded in getting to Turkey, that there would be somebody there to take them subsequently into Syria -- Don.
LEMON: Deb, we only have -- we haven't seen anything of these men. Can you describe the suspects for us?
FEYERICK: It was very interesting. One is from Uzbekistan, the other from Kazakhstan. They are permanent legal residents here in the United States. They couldn't have been more 5'3", 5'4". One of them was wearing a green hoodie, he had red and black patent leather high tops, the lace has been removed. The other one was wearing a gray hoodie. His pants, you know, they were small, so they had actually rolled up their pants. And he was wearing a head covering.
But they said that they understood the charges against them. They said that they -- that they knew what they were facing. And one of the reasons the hearing was delayed a little bit is because one of them did ask for a translator from -- who can speak Uzbek essentially. LEMON: All right. And what are your sources tell you? Should we
expect more cases and more charges stemming from today's arrests?
FEYERICK: Yes. Well, the FBI director has said that there are people like this in all 50 states. Whether we're going to see a handful of people directly related to these three individuals, that's to be determined.
One thing that the FBI had going for them in this particular case was that the 24-year-old actually said that this was his plan, that he wanted to allegedly go to Syria and if not, kill the president, and then a confidential informant was brought in and was able to develop information. The reason they were picked up is because one of them, the 19-year-old, he was picked up on the jetway. His plane scheduled to take off this morning to go to Turkey.
The other one had moved up his travel plans and authorities believed that he was expecting to leave as early as this weekend, so it was go- time.
LEMON: All right. Deborah Feyerick, thank you very much.
Joining me now exclusively is Allan -- Adam Perlmutter. He represents Akhror Saidakhmetov, one of the three men arrested today.
Thank you for joining us. I want to -- you said something outside of the courtroom today. You said this case makes us question the federal government's approach to -- if these allegations are true they really make us question the approach the federal government takes to young Muslim men in America.
Explain what you meant by that.
ADAM PERLMUTTER, AKHROR SAIDAKHMETOV'S ATTORNEY: Right. Sure. Well, I mean, let me -- let me just back up and say, Don, that the -- obviously they're presumed innocent at this point. And the allegations that have been made against them are just allegations. I want to be really clear about that.
But my point is, is that if these allegations do have some truth to them or in similar circumstances as FBI Director Comey said today, there are people around the country who are -- who seemed to be flirting with extremism, it seems that the government's approach to these individuals is to label them as criminals, and to take all of the resources of the United States' law enforcement apparatus, and to throw it at them to try to build criminal prosecutions against them, as opposed to taking the time to try to understand why are they becoming radicalized, what can we do to understand what is going on in their minds.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: But that still doesn't excuse -- if it is indeed true, if they are indeed guilty of what they were -- what they're accused of doing? That doesn't excuse that. PERLMUTTER: Well, you know, you can say that, but I have a lot of
questions about exactly what they're accused of doing based on the complaint. We know that for a long time there are --
LEMON: What are your questions?
PERLMUTTER: Well, my questions really focus on the confidential informant and the use of the confidential informant. We have a complaint that really just has small snippets of conversations. For example, there's a paragraph in the complaint which talks about my client allegedly speculating about how to get travel documents to be able to leave the country.
LEMON: OK. The complaint states that your client told a confidential informant that he wanted to travel to Syria to wage jihad, but that his mom feared he would do so and took his passport so he couldn't travel. It also says that your client watched video of ISIL training videos. And then it goes on to say that your client expressed interest in joining the United States military so that he could pass information about the military to ISIL, to help their attack.
Additionally, he said he could always open fire on American soldiers and kill as many of them as possible. That's what the complaint says.
PERLMUTTER: And this is all information that is delivered to the FBI from a confidential informant that the government says, in their own complaint, they can't rely on the credibility of. And we only have, again, these small snippets of what my client allegedly said, we don't know the background, we don't know the context, we don't know how this confidential informant manipulated my client.
And, you know, we know, for example, in the Newberg case, that an FBI informant actively manipulated people who really weren't interested in radicalization.
LEMON: In a recorded conversation on January 11th, your client told the confidential informant that he had a plan if he didn't get the proper travel documents to go to Syria, he said this, quote, "I will just go buy a machine gun, an AK-47, go out and shoot all police."
He then went on to say, "It is legal in America to carry a gun. We will go and purchase one handgun, then go and shoot one police officer. Boom. Then we will take him -- his gun, bullets and bulletproof vest, then we will do the same with a couple of others. Then we will go to the FBI headquarters, kill the FBI people."
That's on a recording.
PERLMUTTER: And again, I don't know if he was led into that discussion or into comments like that, if he in fact made those comments by this FBI informant. We haven't been provided the transcripts. We haven't been provided the recordings. So we don't really know what this FBI informant did. This was a paid FBI informant.
LEMON: Your client was arrested at JFK today trying to travel to Turkey. Have you had a chance to speak to him?
PERLMUTTER: I have had a chance to speak to him.
LEMON: And what does he say?
PERLMUTTER: I --
LEMON: Or can you talk about it?
PERLMUTTER: I can't comment on that at this point.
LEMON: And he -- does he deny these allegations?
PERLMUTTER: He -- he has not had to enter a plea yet. He's not been indicted yet. All that's happened is he's been presented on a complaint and there's no need for him to enter any type of plea or make any type of statement to that effect at this point.
LEMON: He's apparently, according to the complaint, he says he was prepared to die?
PERLMUTTER: That's what's the complaint says. Again, I -- you know --
LEMON: You don't know. You have an issue with the confidential informant.
PERLMUTTER: Exactly.
LEMON: You would like it to be more transparent?
PERLMUTTER: Well, I'd like to see, you know, I -- I need to look at the evidence as any lawyer at this early stage of the case would need to do.
LEMON: Thank you for coming on. Please come back.
PERLMUTTER: No problem. Thank you. Bye-bye.
LEMON: Adam Perlmutter, the attorney for one of the accused, the 19- year-old.
We've got a lot more on the latest terror threat. When we come right back, the danger from lone wolves, and what will it take to stop homegrown radicals.
Plus, the creative force behind one of the -- one of television's hottest shows, "Empire's" Lee Daniels on being black in Hollywood.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: A stark warning from the director of the FBI who says the agency is investigating potential homegrown extremists in all 50 states. And a points stand out about the three men arrested today -- they are young, and according to the FBI, they were hatching ambitious plans, join ISIS, kill the president, take out police officers, hijack a plane to Syria.
Want to talk about all of this with Juliette Kayyem, the former Homeland Security assistant secretary, and Ahmed Shihab-Eldin, an adjunct professor at Columbia University.
Ahmed, to you first. The two suspects were from Uzbekistan. One was from Kazakhstan. They range in age from 19 to 30.
How is ISIS able to attack people with such age ranges?
AHMED SHIHAB-ELDIN, ADJUNCT PROFESSOR, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY: I think we've seen a pattern and a trend in recent years but also in recent months where, you know, the people that they're able to attract people are younger and younger. And I think this speaks to the fact that, you know, this isn't really about religion. This isn't really about ideology.
Obviously in many ways, it is about religion and how it's used, but it's also about other driving factors behind what could potentially compel someone to actually, you know, be radicalized which is being alienated, you know, perhaps a perceived sense of anger, injustice or moral outrage, and so there are so many factors.
And, you know, using the Internet as we all know in recent months, a lot of the conversation behind, you know, the sophistication if you will of ISIS online, as compared with other terrorist groups has proven to be effective in that regard.
LEMON: Yes. You -- let's talk about some of the suspects real quick. OK. At least one of the suspects. This is his own words.
He says, "Greetings. We too wanted to pledge our allegiance and commit ourselves while not present there." They were writing to, right, to join the organization.
"I am in USA now. But we don't have any arms. But is it possible to commit ourselves as dedicated martyrs anyway while here? What I'm saying is, to shoot Obama and then get shot ourselves. Will it do? That will strike fear in the hearts of the infidels."
The infidels he's talking about religion. Yet you say it has nothing to do with religion.
SHIHAB-ELDIN: I'm not saying by any means it has nothing to do with religion. I just think, you know, a lot of people are wondering, why they're able to recruit beyond the fact that they're sophisticated in terms of social media.
And you know that they appeal in multiple languages, and religion has something to do with this, but, you know, at the end of the day, there are so many factors that lead people, lone wolves or not, and many of the people who are actually led to this are converts who know very little about the faith.
LEMON: If you read it, they don't sound very sophisticated. If you actually read the complaint, right? SHIHAB-ELDIN: And how much are they talking specifically about Islam.
LEMON: Yes.
SHIHAB-ELDIN: And what it advocates. It's very little. I mean, you know, infidels is more optics than it is specificity.
LEMON: Juliette, why do you say these suspects had motivation, but little capability?
JULIETTE KAYYEM, FORMER HOMELAND SECURITY ASSISTANT SECRETARY: You could just tell from the complaint and, you know, as the lawyer in the previous segment said, you know, there will be questions about the paid informant and about how much they were lured out, but from the complaint, these guys were clearly motivated to do something that in their head they thought.
Well, yes, we want to do this, but in terms of actions, it looks like the conspiracy is only -- the best evidence of the conspiracy is the communications themselves. You know no evidence of major purchases of the weapons. One of them is on a flight, but that's all we have so far.
So look, intent is bad, but intent and capability is what makes these guys dangerous. The arrests at this stage or the indictments at this stage, I think, have to be viewed in the context of the FBI and the Department of Justice coming on very strong not simply because of these three guys, but to say to all the others, all the other teenagers, all the other people online, the people thinking they're going to join something that's cool or hip or violent, that we're going to take it very, very seriously and they'll be arrested.
LEMON: They're sending a message. They're sending a message and they're using these --
KAYYEM: Absolutely.
LEMON: These guys as an example?
Juliette, in January 2014 when referring to ISIS, the president told "The New Yorker" that the analogy that we use around here sometimes, and I think it's accurate. This is what he says. "Is if the J.V. team puts on the Laker uniforms, that doesn't make them Kobe Bryant."
Well, today the director of the FBI said that they -- there are terrorist investigations going on in all 50 states. So how did that happen? How do you go from the J.V. to all 50 states?
KAYYEM: Well, the investigations are based on mostly these communications that are going on people trying to make ties to ISIS, to claim that they're parts of ISIS. So it doesn't necessarily mean that they're varsity yet. It just means that there enough people in each state to make this a national phenomenon. You know, it's not a crisis but it's a phenomenon that the FBI has to take seriously.
Look, the entrance into ISIS is very low. It's not like al Qaeda of 2001 where you had to know bin Laden have fought in Afghanistan. The entrance to ISIS is, hey, will you take me?
SHIHAB-ELDIN: Right.
KAYYEM: I'm online, let me contact you. It's a very low bar and that's what makes it incredibly challenging from a law enforcement and --
LEMON: Less than 10 seconds.
KAYYEM: Investigation (INAUDIBLE).
SHIHAB-ELDIN: You know, I just quickly wanted to, you know, kind of echo that point. I mean, you look at the materials, you look at the way in which this is discussed. It's never, ever really specifically about Islam and the cause. It's -- it seems to be more about very quick flippant kind of glory and machismo and, you know, asserting masculinity and other things.
LEMON: I've got to go. Thanks to both you. I appreciate it.
Up next, I'm going to talk more about terror threats against the U.S. with Frank Rich of "New York" magazine. He and Jon Stewart also take on Bill O'Reilly under fire for his claims about reporting from war zones.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: New York City's police commissioner did not mince words today when he talked about the latest terror threat. William Bratton said bluntly this is real and he expressed concern about lone wolves.
I'm joined by Frank Rich, writer-at-large from "New York" magazine.
Frank, three men arrested today for allegedly trying to go to Syria to join ISIS. We have the threat to the malls over the weekend, and then the impasse on funding Homeland Security.
What in the world is going on?
FRANK RICH, NEW YORK MAGAZINE: Well, you know, Americans claimed to, and I think legitimately, do feel that ISIS is a real menace. We've seen these horrible atrocities and yet we have a Washington that's sitting around having a debating society, and we have a major political party that has a radical group within it that may stop the funding of the Department of Homeland Security at this moment.
And as a party, by the way, the Republican Party that's a hawkish party, that talks a big game about wanting to go with boots on the ground, and go get after ISIS, and all the rest of it, yet they're not even funding the agency that would protect presumably, you know, the Mall of America for starters.
LEMON: I want to switch gears and -- I have been wanting to talk to you about this story since it first broke. I'm talking about Bill O'Reilly made several references to being a, quote, "in a combat situation while covering the 1982 Falkland war, when in fact he covered the war from Buenos Aires. Now last night he continued to defend his reporting.
I want you to watch this, Frank.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL O'REILLY, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: As I reported accurately, the violence was horrific. Today CBS News released the video.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As word of the Argentine defeat leaked out in Buenos Aires thousands of demonstrators began to gather outside the presidential palace. But the demonstrators as many 5,000 of them began screaming, "traitor, traitor," and this is the end of the military dictatorship.
O'REILLY: In my reporting, I told it exactly the way it was.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Do you think any protests that he experienced there --
(CROSSTALK)
RICH: If I were in a protest like that, I -- I think, you know, look, I think that Bill O'Reilly is such a strong warrior he should lead the battle on ISIS. I think, you know, he can prove his bona fides by going over right now, and reporting from there.
You know, it's fascinating to me that he is so defensive about it and is digging himself in deeper, but on the other hand, there's a marketing strategy, too. His audience likes to see him take on the so-called liberal media. So it is his element.
LEMON: And even Jon Stewart opened up the show last night talking about it. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JON STEWART, HOST, "THE DAILY SHOW WITH JON STEWART": I don't know if you watch his program.
O'REILLY: Caution, you are about to enter the no-spin zone.
STEWART: Misrepresenting -- misrepresenting the zone he's in is kind of his hook because it seems to me, you know, we might all be just a little better off if the exaggerations about covering a war get less attention that the exaggerations that get us into so many of them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Is he right?
RICH: Well, yes. I mean, the fact is that -- however, I have to say, in the cases of both Bill O'Reilly and Brian Williams, neither of them really covered the war properly, the Iraq war when it was ginning up, none of them questioned the intelligence and all the stuff that was wrong, in the case of a war. But yes, Jon Stewart's overall point is right, but this is -- the thing with Bill O'Reilly has become sort of a farce. I mean, he --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: You don't think it's going to hurt him?
RICH: No. Because he has a -- he has self-selected viewership of three million, whatever it is, and they come for him saying, the rest of the media stinks, and they're all out to get us and they're a bunch of -- you know, pointed headed idiots.
LEMON: Yes.
RICH: As we are.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: Yes, and many people say it's not -- you know, he is a commentator or a host and not really, you know --
RICH: He's not an anchor.
LEMON: He's not doing the news. Yes.
RICH: I mean, he's there -- it's an opinion show. It's like -- you know, he's like a columnist.
LEMON: What do you think of Rudy Giuliani? And he's questioning the president's patriotism, so to speak. Because he -- he's saying he doesn't love the country not like you and I do.
RICH: Well, here's a guy who love the country so much that he recommended Bernie Kerik to be head of the Department of Homeland Security. If Kerik had actually gotten into that job after he's nominated, we would have -- the country would have been in mortal danger. He was a complete -- he was a criminal and incompetent.
I think it's -- you know, he wants attention. He's like -- you know, as I wrote, you know, he's Donald Trump without the hair and without the primetime television show. I think if he had a version of "The Apprentice" he'd be a lot happier guy.
LEMON: I want to talk about your new article for "New York" magazine, it's called "The Six Most Admired Man in America." And you say Dr. Ben Carson is the latest GOP political unicorn.
What do you mean by that?
RICH: I mean, that the Republican Party has a lot of trouble attracting African-American voters. They got 6 percent of the African-American vote in 2012, which by the way is the same percentage they got in 1964 when Barry Goldwater headed the ticket. And so they have the syndrome over the past 20 years where, if there is a conservative African-American who says I want to be president, they will fast-track him to -- you know, give him (INAUDIBLE) and -- this guy Ben Carson is a very accomplished neurosurgeon.
LEMON: Do you think he's qualified? You don't think he's qualified?
RICH: He's qualified to be a doctor.
(LAUGHTER)
The fact is, what he, Herman Cain and Allan Keyes all have in common is they've never held any public office before they ran for president. You'd think that at least they might have been elected dogcatcher or something before going up to the top tier of presidential candidates in a major political party.
LEMON: Thank you, Frank Rich.
RICH: Thank you.
LEMON: Appreciate you joining me.
And coming up the man behind the smash hit "Empire." Wait until you hear what Lee Daniels has to say about being black in Hollywood.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: The hot Oscar topic this year has been the stunning lack of diversity among the nominees. Not a single actor or actress of color was nominated, and that includes Selma director Ava DuVernay.
Joining me now, a man who has a lot to say about all of this, he is a director of Lee Daniels' The Butler and the writer and the director of Empire. My new favorite show, he joins me now. Thank you very much, hey.
LEE DANIELS, DIRECTOR AND PRODUCER: What side about this?
LEMON: Alright, are you ready to get into some trouble?
DANIELS: Yes.
LEMON: OK.
DANIELS: Oh, Lord. (Inaudible) Let's get to work.
LEMON: We're gonna talk about all things Empire. But since fresh off the red carpet from the Oscars, I want to talk about this. And this -- they said it was the whitest Oscars since 1998. The host Neil Patrick Harris even joked about it. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NEIL PATRICK HARRIS, ACTOR: Welcome to the 87th Oscars. Tonight, we honor Hollywood's best and whitest -- sorry, brightest.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP) DANIELS: I missed that.
LEMON: Yeah, you missed that. What do you think?
DANIELS: I felt like, you know, why we were all presenting. I thought like, why we were all there to present and to -- to be, to serve you if we can't eat the food -- and that is what I thought.
LEMON: You saw it --
DANIELS: I felt they were like -- we were all sprinkled in there just to serve up some something. It was --
LEMON: It wasn't a bit much you're saying after --
DANIELS: I thought I was trying to make a point.
LEMON: (inaudible)
DANIELS: Trying to make a point. But here's the thing, the work has to be good. You know, I take it back to the work. And it's -- it's easy to call the race card for me, and everybody else. I don't -- I don't call the race card. It is what it is. It's -- part of the -- it's part -- I didn't complain when we didn't get -- we didn't anything for Butler.
LEMON: I want to talk about -- you do nothing for Butler. Selma was -- Selma got nominated for -- for best film, for picture of the year. But they said Ava DuVernay was snub...
DANIELS: Yeah.
LEMON: I spoke with Oprah on the red carpet. She didn't think she was snub. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OPRAH WINFREY, ACTRESS: I think Hollywood does need to have more diversity. But I don't think that, I don't consider us being snub. We're on the carpet, I told that before. We're here on the carpet. We're nominated for best picture, for a best picture. Hello.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: She is like, "Don, I'm tired of answering this question for you and everybody else." Can you tell? What do you think?
DANIELS: I love her so much. I think she is absolutely right in that, she's absolutely in that. You know, people act like it's such -- like this is -- it's -- it is what it is. If you are chasing an award, you are not -- what are we -- I'm not chasing an award, I'm not going to chase an award. And I think that -- I think that the minute I start doing something for an award -- it's over. Back in place, it's over. And I think that you know, it is what it is. I'm not gonna -- I don't want to go into it.
LEMON: Yeah. Let's listen to John Legend. What he said, he's talking about Selma to -- and his acceptance speech for the song, Glory.
DANIELS: Right.
LEMON: Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN LEGEND, SINGER-SONGWRITER: We wrote this song for a film that was based on events that was 50 years ago, but we say that Selma is now -- because the struggle for justice is right now. We know that the voting rights that act that they fought for 50 years ago is being compromised right now, in this country today. We know right now --
(APPLAUSE)
LEGEND: The struggle for freedom and justice is real. We live in the most incarcerated country in the world.
(APPLAUSE)
LEGEND: There are more black men under correctional control today than were under slavery in 1850.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: The Washington Post said that there is a disturbing truth to what Legend was saying and they quote, "It is not necessarily an equal comparison, but there is some truth." What your reaction hearing that?
DANIELS: Yes, God. You know, that I agree with. And it is a damn shame.
LEMON: Why so?
DANIELS: I think that you know, when half of my relatives and I mean, half of my relatives are from -- are in jail, some of them unjustly so. When my son calls me up from a 7-11, who went to the all white high school and he said, "Why am I being -- why am I -- what's going on, why they're watching me?" And I have to have that conversation with him, and it is more disturbing than the sex conversation, I got tell him why.
LEMON: What do you say to him?
DANIELS: That's painful. It's painful, it's very painful, I blocked it out. You're different. Welcome to being a black man. It's the ugliest conversation I've ever had, the ugliest conversation, Don. It was the ugliest I've ever had.
LEMON: Yeah. When I said -- I say often what you say, welcome to being a black man, it doesn't mean that you -- you should carry and hold yourself in a certain way. But that's -- that's part of it. That's all part of it, but it's (inaudible) true.
DANIELS: He does not know how not to, you know. Because what happens is that he's -- he's grown up in a way that - you know, he doesn't have -- he doesn't -- he has two dads, one black, one white. He don't know. He really don't know. You know, and so he's taking aback when -- he singled out. He's confused by, and that disturbs me.
LEMON: And this is -- even -- does he even goes home with you -- but closer to your heart, because your father was a police officer, killed in the line of duty, correct? So you see -- I'm sure do you see both sides of it, the dangers of being a police officer, and also the danger of excessive force from being a police officer as it comes to Eric Garner, as it comes to other cases in the news?
DANIELS: I do. We -- we grew up -- we grew up loving the police. We were told -- I mean, I think it's because my dad was a cop, we grew up with the police -- and they were helpful, and they were helpful, certainly. Even in the midst of -- move -- that movement in Philadelphia, and it was crazy. But there was this -- they were still helpful, and I've mixed feelings about the police.
LEMON: Do you think things have changed since the time that your dad was a police officer, and since the time of the move?
DANIELS: No.
LEMON: No? Why not?
DANIELS: I think that -- man. I'm still pulled over. In Beverly Hills, I'm still pulled over. I remember being pulled over going to my first award show for I was -- were nominated for two Oscars for a Monster's Ball, and I almost didn't make the Oscars, because I got pulled over in Beverly Hills. And I said -- I'm in a tux, check the glove compartment, I got to go. And the -- and I almost missed the Oscars.
LEMON: Yeah. But you won that night. Halle (ph) won.
DANIELS: It did.
LEMON: Yeah.
DANIELS: (inaudible)
LEMON: You may --
DANIELS: Bitter juice -- this has bitter -- that bitter sweetness of that.
LEMON: And she was the first.
DANIELS: Yes.
LEMON: She was the first.
DANIELS: She's the first.
LEMON: Do you -- and in that though, when you think about what's happening, and the black -- what is the black community, right, when you said there was a black community. Is that -- do you think that's the biggest issue facing the black community, police brutality or racial profiling?
DANIELS: Yes.
LEMON: You do?
LEMON: Even more than people killing themselves, than crime?
DANIELS: Yeah, I do. I do. I think that it starts with feeling inferior, and starts with feeling nothing. It starts with -- it starts with how you are treated by the world and those affects you and you have nothing to lose and that affects you in every way.
LEMON: Yeah.
DANIELS: Yeah.
LEMON: Standby, we're gonna talk about half of yourself and said you're so honest, thank you.
DANIELS: Man. That's really a Debbie Downer.
LEMON: No, no. But it's important for - to our people to hear that, especially of your influence and of your stature, I think stature. I think it's so important for people to hear. Thank you for speaking the truth, but don't go anywhere, because we're gonna come right back and I want to talk about -- his new hit show Empire and its stories ripped from the headlines and from hip-hop. Do go anywhere.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Look at Cookie in her fur. If you are not watching Empire yet, you should be. The hip-hop family drama is getting all kinds of buzz and I'm back with the creator Lee Daniels. They say it's hip-hop family. It's about hip-hop, but it's really about any -- it could be any American family...
DANIELS: Yeah.
LEMON: Who happens to makes it, right?
DANIELS: Yes.
LEMON: So this is -- this grown, it's the only get it right here. It's the only prime time broadcast series to grow in viewers each of its telecast in 23 years, and it's on pop (ph). Did you know it would be that big? This big?
DANIELS: I asked my mom that. I go, ma, you know this is -- this is -- did you? -- What do you think of this? And she said, "Oh, I think that you -- you know, look at you, you did the movie, you did that movie -- the Monster's ball and -- that was first movie and you got that girl an academy award, why not?" So I guess in hindsight, I guess -- maybe you know, because I come on unafraid.
LEMON: Yeah.
DANIELS: That --
LEMON: Isn't -- is great to be fearless.
DANIELS: Yeah.
LEMON: I call it being truly emancipated, when you -- when you're fearless like that.
DANIELS: Yeah.
LEMON: And you know, mothers think you can do anything.
DANIELS: Anything.
LEMON: But that's good, if your -- if your mother believes you can do anything, she'll teach you that you can do anything.
DANIELS: And that's why I am --
(CROSSTALK)
DANIELS: Whatever it is that what I want to do. But that fur and that leopard and that -- those hoops -- I mean, come on.
LEMON: Is that you or it's that Taraji?
DANIELS: Me. Are you kidding me?
LEMON: That's you?
DANIELS: Are you kidding me? It was that on me.
LEMON: OK. Alright, I said that I was jealous of Terrence, because he gets to play the Cookie's husband. He plays the patriarch on the show. He's Lucious Lyon.
DANIELS: Yes.
LEMON: She plays Cookie Lyon, Taraji P. Henson. Here's the clip, look at it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TERRENCE HOWARD, ACTOR: Baby. Why are you doing this?
TARAJI P.HENSON, ACTRESS: Don't you baby me, you two-faced bastard. I have been living like a dog for 17 years, and now, I want what's mine. I want Jamal.
HOWARD: And you would sink this whole empire over that?
HENSON: Give me Jamal.
HOWARD: You got him.
(END VIDEO CLIP) (LAUGHTER)
LEMON: I love it. Did you know -- so Cookie was in your mind?
DANIELS: Yeah, I write well with women -- for women. I mean, you know -- I mean, it's a damn shame I'm gay, because I -- I'm obsessive with woman, they're so fascinating...
LEMON: Right.
DANIELS: You know I grew up with strong black women that were just filled with personalities.
LEMON: Who -- and just your mom, your sister, aunts...
DANIELS: My grandma, I see -- oh, my neighbors...
LEMON: Yeah.
DANIELS: And we're just like -- they were all Cookies'...
LEMON: Yeah.
DANIELS: You know, and so, she lives in me.
LEMON: Yeah. And the way she -- the women get to have so much fun with clothing, right?
DANIELS: Yes, they do.
LEMON: That curve. (ph) She gets to change her personality appear (ph) depending on how she feels that day, she gets to wear -- we have seen her in a lot of leopard, lot of --
DANIELS: My favorite is the gun with the do-rag against the door. The pumps, the gold -- the gold silk nightgown shirt -- pants and the --
LEMON: Gun.
DANIELS: Yeah. Oh, yeah.
LEMON: Yeah.
DANIELS: She is everything.
LEMON: I love it though when she goes to the dinner, and she said, "Do you think I came over dressed like this?" And she is liked --
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: How -- where the heck did you come up with that? She is half naked under the fur coat.
DANIELS: (inaudible)
LEMON: Yeah. DANIELS: She does -- oh, she brings a lot to the table.
LEMON: Yeah.
DANIELS: Mama don't play.
LEMON: She wanted Terrence. When you called her she said, I'll do it, right?
DANIELS: Yeah.
LEMON: If you get Terrence Howard.
DANIELS: She -- listen, she was auditioning for the role, OK? She -- we were skyping, and -- I am -- I'm in conversation with Wesley Snipes. So, I go well, you know I'm talking to Wesley, and keep in mind that Terrence and I are friends.
LEMON: Right.
DANIELS: We did The Butler together and we're looking for a film, another film. We're talking about Marvin Gaye, we're talking about movies. He's a really good friend. And he said -- she says, "Oh, no, I think it should be Terrence." And I was -- and she -- and I said, you don't have the job.
LEMON: Who do you -- who do you, think you are.
DANIELS: Exactly.
LEMON: She is Cookie.
DANIELS: And that way -- that's Cookie though.
LEMON: He is Cookie. Can we -- you, you -- you said, I think it's like Dynasty. You said you based it off the actual Kennedys, right?
DANIELS: I did. Well --
LEMON: Because it's a son -- which son would take over the -- the empire, the dynasty, what have you?
DANIELS: Correct. My partner Danny Strong and I -- he -- he came to me at when we're doing The Butler and he wanted to do -- he -- we both have line -- we both loved Blind in the Winter, you know? And it's -- and so, we -- and that was sort of a common denominator that we had and we were looking to do a family -- hip-hop story. That -- I want a dynasty. I want -- that lives in me, that old school, sort of camp, border lining on lake.
LEMON: Yeah, and Joan Collins. (ph)
DANIELS: Alexis, yeah.
LEMON: Alexis. I want to talk to you about this, because you tackle -- do you tackle the social issues? There's a character on the show who is gay -- one of the sons who's gay.
DANIELS: Yeah.
LEMON: And they do -- you do a flashback to when the dad realizes, and this is the scene -- coming form your life, this happened to you and you put it in this show. Let's watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUSSIE SMOLLETT, SINGER: Feel like I walk 5,000 miles and didn't even come close. Feels like I try to make you smile but you don't even care no, oh no.
GENIS WOOTEN, ACTOR: Daddy, please don't, please. Daddy, I'm sorry. Please don't. No, daddy, please don't...
HENSON: Lucious.
WOOTEN: Daddy, daddy, please.
HENSON: Lucious.
SMOLLETT: I tried to show you that I'm strong.
HENSON: Are you out of your damn mind?
SMOLLETT: Why do I even bother?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: That scene hit home for me. You know, for a lot of people, especially men of color, who happened to be gay. Then why did you put it in there? Were you afraid to put it on there?
DANIELS: Oh yeah, I had no intention, I told my partner this, and that is why we are a great team. I told him this in passing and then, when it ended up in the script, I said, no, no. No, no. And some kind of why you just talked be into it. And then when it came time to shoot it, and he shooting it, I'm shooting it, it's my life, you know. And so, my sister who had bring it along as my good luck charm and my -- all my films was an extra in the scene, in that particular scene, in the house. And the -- when it came to the kid walking towards Terrence, with his hands on the hips, I couldn't -- I couldn't direct the scene, I felt down in tears. Because I just -- my sister instinctively knew, got up and directed the kid. So I didn't direct the moment. My sister did, only the director.
LEMON: Yeah.
DANIELS: People.
LEMON: I think it's painful, it's very powerful though, but you're -- you're making a difference, you're pushing the envelope. And, I think you're forcing people to deal with things that we need to deal with in this society, so I commend you for that.
DANIELS: Thank You.
LEMON: I've also, you've also been -- very candid about -- Mo'nique who is a friend of yours, right? She was in Precious.
DANIELS: Yes.
LEMON: She says that she was blackballed --
DANIELS: Yeah.
LEMON: From Hollywood after the movie.
DANIELS: No, she said that I said...
LEMON: That you said -- yes, yeah.
DANIELS: I didn't say that exactly. What I said to her was what the -- I said, you got -- we were on the campaign and she was making unreasonable demands, and -- you know, and she was not thinking -- this is when the reverse racism I think happens. You know I said, you have to thank the producers of the film, you have to thank the studio, and I -- I think she didn't understand that and I think that -- listen, people aren't gonna respond well if you don't -- you don't so. I love her and I've spoken to her and I've -- she's brilliant, and I like working with brilliant people. But sometimes artists get in their own way, and I know I certainly do often, I have my own demons that I get my own, you know, in front of myself.
LEMON: So you think she blackballed herself? Because if somebody --
DANIELS: I think that --
LEMON: Who actually do?
DANIELS: I think that I think -- I think that -- there were demands that were made from her on the Precious campaign, that everyone knows that about, that hurt her, and I told her that. So -- and I --
LEMON: You know.
DANIESL: Que Sera, Sera.
LEMON: Can she -- can she changed that?
DANIELS: I mean, if she plays ball. You got to play ball...
LEMON: That's it.
DANIELS: This is not --
LEMON: That was the question I want to ask to you.
DANIELS: You have two places and this is not just show. It's show business. And you got to play ball. And you can't scream -- I don't like calling the race card, I don't believe in it. I don't believe in it, because if I -- If I buy into it, then it becomes real. If I knew what I knew when I was 21, I wouldn't be where I am right now.
LEMON: Then some people call that, selling out, you know?
DANIELS: Selling out?
LEMON: I did that, you know --
DANIELS: I guess I'm a sellout of that. Call it what it is, but I'm not going to not work and I'm not gonna not tell my truth and I'm not gonna call people on their bull. So whatever that means, sellout, OK. I'll see you in the theaters.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: Wow. Where does that come from? That sort of the -- I guess what it is, you are being completely emancipated. You live your own truth, that's matters.
DANIELS: You know, my father told me -- he said to me, why do you want to be gay? Why would you -- like you know, it's hard enough to be a black man. Why do you want to go in there and that's -- what are you doing? I said and I -- taking me a long time to really embrace that and I think that if he were alive today, that he would embrace me for who I am, and it's -- it's hard -- it's hard to keep it real, it's hard being honest.
LEMON: Can we talk about something that also --
DANIESL: Oh, no, what?
LEMON: Can we talk about Cosby?
DANIESL: Don.
LEMON: What do you think of his allegations? And I can hear your -- I can hear your publicist --
DANIELS: Oh no, forget it. You believe me --
(LAUGHTER)
DANIELS: Oh, Don.
LEMON: Do you think? --
DANIELS: What do you think first?
LEMON: Do you think that the black community --
DANIELS: I'm up with it. What do you think?
LEMON: Do you think the black community has turned a blind eye?
DANIELS: I'm asking you first.
LEMON: I think -- DANIELS: You ask me first, now I have to, but it was on you now.
LEMON: Where do I come in?
DANIELS: Yeah.
LEMON: I think --
DANIELS: Honestly.
LEMON: I think it's honestly it's tough to sit here and discuss Mr. Cosby who has been an inspiration to a whole lot of people. DANIELS: Yes.
LEMON: But when so many women come forward...
DANIELS: Yes.
LEMON: Making the same allegations, where there's smoke there's usually fire.
DANIELS: Yeah, OK. So here's my idea, OK. Here's the thing. I think that -- he is one of the reasons that I am here today.
LEMON: Absolutely.
DANIELS: And I think that it's very, very hard and what bothers me most is that if there is an iota of truth into this. How -- the one, the one person that means so much to me in this television as I bounce into this television milieu. You know, the one person of color that means the most to me, or the person that means to me is pulled down. It says that we're human, and that's what it -- if he is guilty, it says that we are human, which is what I like to examine it with every character that I breathe life to. We're not black, it's not white, it's gray. We're all -- we're all complicated. We're all, we're all, we're all complicated and we all like to point fingers and drag people down and drag people to the mud, when -- when stuff ain't right. You know, it's fascinating -- it's not gonna, it's not gonna change and I am -- I pray for him. I pray for him.
LEMON: Which you tell me you feel sadness and --
DANIELS; I'm sad --
(CROSSTALK)
DANIELS: I'm just -- I'm wrecked by it. I'm gutted by it, and the -- he's a man...
LEMON: And the victim as well --
DANIELS: And victims, you know.
LEMON: Yeah.
DANIELS: The victims you know. LEMON: That's a fair response. That's a very honest response.
DANIELS: Yeah.
LEMON: And I respect that.
DANIELS: You got me finger -- I'm putting my fingers on my -- I'm so nervous right now, because you --gosh.
LEMON: No, you -- you were fantastic and --
DANIELS: Thank you.
LEMON: I really appreciate candor (ph) I love when people come on their - just completely honest in themselves. And -- so I thank you.
DANIELS: Thank you sir, for having me.
LEMON: Let's have continues of this.
DANIELS: Thank you very much.
LEMON: Alright, I can't wait to be on the show even.
(LAUGHTER)
DANIELS: And you some (ph) in. I got you.
LEMON: Alright. We will be right back. You heard that right?
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: That was awesome.
DANIELS: Thank you.
LEMON: You were great.
DANIELS: Hey. (ph)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: That's it for us tonight, I'm Don Lemon and thanks for watching. I'll see you back here tomorrow.
"AC360" starts right now.
