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Don Lemon Tonight
Frats Behaving Badly; Fraternities Under Fire; Starbucks Wants to Talk About Race; Debate Continues on the N-Word; Dolce & Gabbana Mired in Controversy; Is High School Stress Worth It? Aired 10-11p ET
Aired March 17, 2015 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:10] DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: From the greatest art heist in history to the scandal sweeping America's college campuses.
This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.
More frat brothers behaving badly. Racism, sexism, anti-Semitism. Are fraternities a pox on campus life?
"New York Times" Frank Bruni says it's time for a hard look, a hard cold look at college today. He's here with me tonight.
Plus, you know the conversation about race is blowing up when even Starbucks weighs in. I want you to listen to rapper Trinidad James. He was here last night talking frankly about racism and the N-word.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRINIDAD JAMES, RAPPER: I will call you, Ben, my nigger, and when I call you that, you do not feel that I hate you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Well, tonight we're keeping the conversation going. What we say and don't say in real life and in entertainment.
Also sorry seems to be the hardest word. The battle between Elton John and top designer Dolce & Gabbana heats up.
We're getting to all of that tonight but I want to begin with the growing scandals in the nation's fraternities.
Sara Ganim has more and I must warn you, some of the images that you're about to see, they are really graphic. They're kind of disturbing. We have blurred them to protect the identities of the people involved. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SARA GANIM, CNN INVESTIGATIONS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): More than just bad fraternity behavior, this could be criminal. Police are investigating a Penn State fraternity Kappa Delta Rho for allegedly posting photos to an invitation only, private Facebook page. Photos of women appearing to be passed out, partially naked, others in compromising, embarrassing positions with demeaning comments from the members of the group posted below.
Police say the page had 144 members, some current students, some alumni. And it's one of those alums who went to the police with screen shots like this one, depicting a naked woman passed out, and this one, an embarrassing text message shared with a group from a woman asking if protection was involved in a drunken hook up.
Police say other photos show illicit drug sales and this one of brothers showing their bare behinds is a hazing incident.
The fraternity was swiftly suspended for a year. Penn State saying the conduct was highly inappropriate and appalling, offensive and inconsistent with the university community's values and expectations. Police are now working with Facebook and the university to try to identify the members and the women in the photos. Police say it's still unclear if this would be considered criminal.
This is just another in a series of examples of fraternities in hot water over unseemly behavior. Last year Arizona State University banned Tao Kappa Epsilon for conduct deemed offensive after its Martin Luther King, Jr.'s day parade had guests flashing gang signs and holding watermelon cups.
Sigma Phi Epsilon shut down its chapter last year at the University of Mississippi after some of its members draped a confederate banner and placed a noose around the statue of the school's first black student.
And, of course, the now infamous SAE chapter at Oklahoma University shut down after this shocking video shows members singing a racist song. All shocking, offensive, but not necessarily criminal. What is clear is that some of today's fraternities appear to be more about bullying than brotherhood.
Sara Ganim, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: Thank you, Sara.
What is clear is that there is a big problem. Joining me now is Erin McCarthy, metro editor for the "Daily Collegiate" at Penn State.
Good evening to you. Thank you for joining us here on CNN.
ERIN MCCARTHY, METRO EDITOR, DAILY COLLEGIATE: Thank you so much for having me.
LEMON: Let's talk about this. Kappa Delta Rho has been suspended on campus tonight. How are students reacting to that?
MCCARTHY: I think the reaction on campus has been kind of mixed. For the most part students have been pretty disgusted at the content of a lot of those pictures. And not even just the pictures, but also the comments in the group and the things that are coming out in the news report. I think students are also a little bit frustrated that a group of students, you know, also put Penn State back in the spotlight in a negative way.
You know, I think that it's a little bit of a divide. I know I was at Kappa Delta Rho this morning, trying to get some comments from some of the fraternity members, and they denied comment, you know, very politely. But a couple of the other brothers standing outside, you know, were -- you know, yelling things, talking about their fraternity. You know, looking nice today, and it being a castle, so I think there's a little bit of divide between some of the fraternity members and the university at a large as to how, you know, the reaction --
LEMON: And Erin --
MCCARTHY: -- to all of this coming out.
LEMON: Erin, let me ask you. Is it -- do you think it's just Kappa Delta Rho? Do you think there's some issue with other fraternities on campus?
MCCARTHY: I think that that's not really something that, you know, I can, you know, comment on. I know that the police said today that --
[22:05:06] LEMON: But people do talk on campus. I mean, you know, if you're a student there, people do talk.
MCCARTHY: Right, yes, I haven't heard of any other fraternities having any groups on Facebook like this private or otherwise, and I know police said that they aren't aware of any other groups, you know, from any of the other fraternities.
LEMON: Yes.
MCCARTHY: So I don't think that, you know, it's stereotype the entire fraternity culture at Penn State, but, you know, obviously this was, you know, a terrible example.
LEMON: I agree with you, Erin. This one -- this is probably the most egregious, this one is, you know, just really -- it's terrible, but I'm just wondering if -- I'm sure there are some issues with some fraternities, and no organization is perfect, and you're right, it's not fair to stereotype an entire system.
But police -- and you see the images. They are pretty gruesome. Police called them disturbing. The ones on this site. They're asking for anyone with any information to come forward.
Do you think that people will come forward and talk about this?
MCCARTHY: I think that they will. I think, you know, police today in their press conference, they urged anyone, any witnesses, any women who have been at the fraternities, and had any experiences, you know, that they felt were odd or, you know, if there's any possibility that they could be in any of these pictures or in any of these, you know, videos, if there are videos or any other photos that are out there. So I do think that people will come forward especially because the
case is getting so much national attention.
LEMON: Yes. So this particular fraternity, though, it's not the first time that there have been issues with nasty pictures, right? Because there were -- according to a search warrant application, another page called Covert Business Transactions was shut down eight months ago after a female student accidentally saw topless pictures of herself when she visited the frat house.
Are you surprised that the fraternity would do it again?
MCCARTHY: I would say -- I mean, I don't know if I can really comment on that either. I'm not really sure, you know, what those members were thinking. I don't have any real kind of insight into that side of it. I mean, if they did it once, I guess, you know, it didn't result in any, you know, real punishment, and didn't -- you know, come into the public light, I guess it's not the most surprising thing, but I don't think I can really comment on what they were thinking.
LEMON: Erin McCarthy, thank you very much.
MCCARTHY: Thank you.
LEMON: Let's bring in "The New York Times'" columnist Frank Bruni. He's written about the dark side of Greek life and his latest book is called, "Where You Go is Not Who You'll Be: An Antidote to the College Admissions Mania." And has to do with colleges so it is related to what we're talking about.
FRANK BRUNI, NEW YORK TIMES COLUMNIST: Right.
LEMON: The reason I asked because this is not just in a vacuum.
BRUNI: No, it's not.
LEMON: This is not just this one fraternity. This is an extreme example.
BRUNI: Right.
LEMON: But there are issues with fraternities all over. With the Greek system all over.
BRUNI: Well, as you said, and as I think Erin said, we can't stereotype fraternities. But we can take note of what they are. And what they are is they're exclusive societies, many of them, not all of them, that let in like-minded individuals who can then exist in a very homogeneous environment. That strikes me as something that's at odd with what we really want college to be.
LEMON: Yes.
BRUNI: And you have to note that we have sexist behavior from organizations that are all male.
LEMON: Yes.
BRUNI: We have racist behavior from organizations that are virtually all white.
LEMON: Yes.
BRUNI: Those are not accidents.
LEMON: Yes. Because you write about this, I think this was back in December, you write about, it's called "A Pox on Campus Life." You say, you should be cultivating the kind of sensibility, meaning students should be cultivating the kind of sensibility, that make you a better citizen of diverse and distressingly fractious society. How is it that -- how is that served by retreating into an exclusionary clique of people just like you?
BRUNI: Right.
LEMON: I've often thought that. How is that -- when I went to college, I wanted to know everybody of all different ethnicities. I didn't want to surround myself by people who were just like me.
BRUNI: And I'm not just flattering you but I think that's the right attitude to take into college. You know, we're coming in many cases from a high school background, a child up to that point, where we've had a fairly limited exposure. In college, unlike most chapters of life in a very unique way can truly broaden your frame, can diversity what you know.
If you don't use it for that, you're not using it for all that it's worth and I don't think retreating into a sort of clique is the right use of college. And I'm not talking there just about fraternities. There are far too many campuses these days that allow you to live just among theater majors, or live just among fellow environmentalists. That's not preparing you to live in a diverse society that is America.
LEMON: Does it seem like we're going backwards? All this self- segregation going on in college campuses now, which is playing out as we are seeing in the Greek system.
BRUNI: Well, I don't know if we're going backwards but we're not going forward fast enough. And I worry in some ways that it's a mirror of what happens online in the Internet. The Internet has allowed you to kind of -- with your -- with what you bookmark and with your social media feed, it's allowed you to filter the universe to just viewpoints like your own.
LEMON: But doesn't that --
BRUNI: We're doing that on campuses --
LEMON: But doesn't it open up the world where you should know that this kind of behavior is not acceptable?
[22:10:03] BRUNI: Well, it can open the world up to you if you let it. You know, I mean, you should -- you should use it that way. But most of the people, you know, how do they use the Internet? They use it -- the Twitter feeds they follow, the Facebook pages they visit, it's an echo chamber of people who feel exactly like them. Are we doing the same thing with the structure of campus life?
LEMON: It's an echo chamber of extreme opinions.
BRUNI: Right.
LEMON: And usually people who have the same opinions all follow each other.
BRUNI: Right. Right.
LEMON: And then yell at the people who don't have opinions like theirs.
BRUNI: It's a force in the political polarization. We all lament the political polarization and we kind of look to Congress and say, what's your problem? They're a mirror of what's happening in our own lives online.
LEMON: For some people who are older, sometimes I cut them slack because they don't realize -- in the old days when you and I went to school --
BRUNI: Not that old. Come on. We're not that old.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: It used to be that you would do something, right, and it would stay either at the frat house or it would stay at the party the night before or what have you. But these kids have grown up with the Internet and they know that everything that's out there, you put out there, whether it's written, pictures or what have you, it's there forever. So, and again, should they know better?
BRUNI: Well, they should know better but here with the Penn State thing, you see how easy things can circulate online. I also think something weird happens online where it depersonalizes everything, and you forget that you're -- whether it comes to online bullying, anything like that, you forget that you're dealing with human beings because cyberspace is such an impersonal environment.
LEMON: Yes. But humiliating someone is universally known as a no-no.
BRUNI: It is a no-no. Yes. But --
(LAUGHTER)
We're filled with bad behavior. We're humans, Don.
LEMON: All right. Will you stick around? There's a lot more to talk to you about.
BRUNI: Yes.
LEMON: OK, Frank Bruni, thank you very much.
We've got more to come on this including the question a lot of people are asking, is it time to do away with fraternities. Interesting question.
I also want to talk about why you say getting into the right college, Frank Bruni, may not be as important as a lot of people might think.
Plus racism, the N-word, Starbucks. Our conversation got pretty heated last night, and we're keeping that conversation going.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:05:28] LEMON: They're trying to do a good thing. Starbucks is trying to start a national discussion about race in America, encouraging customers to talk about it when they come in to buy coffee. Well, predictably, there has been a social media backlash.
I want to talk about this with CNN political commentators Ben Ferguson and Marc Lamont Hill back again, gluttons for punishment, and entertainment blogger, Perez Hilton.
Perez, welcome to the show. I think you've been on before a while ago.
PEREZ HILTON, ENTERTAINMENT BLOGGER: Yes.
LEMON: I think it would be news if something didn't cause a backlash on social media, right, because it's always something.
First, though, I want to discuss this bad behavior in some fraternity house. And Marc, I want to go to you first because tonight Penn State is suspending a frat for posting illicit photos of drunken women. You probably saw the story in the earlier segment.
MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes.
LEMON: University of Houston suspending a frat over hazing allegations and that University of Connecticut frat is losing their campus charter for throwing parties while under probation.
What the hell is going on?
HILL: Well, I think the schools are cracking down because there's so much national attention. But every year there are hazing allegations. Every year there are all sorts of illicit activities that happened. I happen to believe fraternities and sororities are a good thing. I happen to believe that they could -- they do a lot of good work in our society. I know a lot about black Greek letter organizations that do a tremendous amount of service in the public interest.
So I don't want to dismiss all of it. But when you have homo-social spaces particularly in the context of fraternities, and you have homogeneous space in terms of race as well, what you all can end up with is the worst -- a doubling-down on the worst parts of it. So you end up with really white spaces that do racist stuff, end up with really male spaces that do sex and stuff.
And we have to work through that and correct it, but I don't think we throw the baby out with the bathwater.
LEMON: But when you look at all these things you looked at and what happened with James Meredith statue at the University of Mississippi, you look at what's happening at the -- I mean, it does seem to be -- is this something we just -- I guess as Marc is saying, Ben, that we ignore, and it happens on college campuses all of the time.
You were in a fraternity. Did you -- did you witness this behavior?
BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No, I did not but I also came back in a fraternity after I had been kicked off for four years and it was a new day.
I think it's a good thing that they're opening up --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Wait, wait, what happened at your fraternity? What did you say?
FERGUSON: There was -- there was some hazing incidences and they'd kicked them off for four years, and then we were the first class to come back, and it was a completely different fraternity than what it was before. But I think that these colleges should be doing this. They should be opening up the can.
They shouldn't be just getting rid of fraternities, they should be getting rid of the bad ones and set an example because when you do go after a fraternity on one campus, every other fraternity on campus, or a sorority, knows, hey, they're really watching us right now, and we need to play by the rules. And it usually works out pretty well.
I think it's the right step for these colleges to be doing this. They should be doing it more often.
LEMON: It's just -- it's not just university staff people who are watching, and the -- you know, the people who are higher ups in the fraternity, it's the Internet, Perez. Your life and business is the Internet. These college students have grown up with it.
FERGUSON: Absolutely.
LEMON: There's still -- you know, they should know about all of these things and that everything -- as I said to Frank Bruni, everything you do has a trail. It stays there.
HILTON: Yes. There is this false expectation of privacy if you join, let's say, a private Facebook page or if you send somebody a snap on the SnapChat, but people can still get a screen grab of your SnapChat, and people can still take a screen grab of the photo that you post on a private Facebook page. In the Internet world, once you put something out there, it is the public domain. And there is no privacy online so you really need to be smart about
what you're doing. And unfortunately, a lot of these college kids are not being smart, and they're just being really regrettable. Like they're probably doing things while drunk, like, this is funny, I'm wasted and I'm going to post it, and then, you know, look what happens now.
FERGUSON: It ends up on your Web site.
HILTON: This is nothing new. It's awful.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: It ends up with Perez with little white dots going down.
HILTON: Yes, exactly.
LEMON: All right. Ben, I want to switch gears now, and let's talk about the Starbucks Coffee, as I mentioned in the lead and in light of the protest and racial tensions that's all across the country that we've been talking about.
The company is encouraging their baristas now to chat about race with customers. And they write this, "Race Together."
FERGUSON: Yes.
LEMON: That's on their coffee mugs, right? On their coffee cups.
FERGUSON: How does this work? I was trying to envision this earlier, like you're in --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: It's -- it's like you're saying you're on the side of social commentary.
FERGUSON: I would like to -- well, here's my take. I would like to order a black coffee, speaking of black, how do you feel about black people? I don't know if this is really going to work that well. I mean, if you order a latte, they're like, you know what, maybe next time you should add a little more darker color to your coffee. Speaking of darker color, let's talk about race.
[22:20:01] This may be one of the most ridiculous ideas I have ever seen by a company to think that this is the appropriate place for this to have. And this is a disaster waiting to happen.
LEMON: Do you agree with that, Perez? You don't -- you disagree?
HILTON: No, not at all. I think Starbucks is not for everybody, and if you don't like what they're doing, you shouldn't buy coffee there. To me, Starbucks is like the city of San Francisco, a lot of people dislike San Francisco because they're so progressive. They treat the homeless very well there. They're very liberal. Starbucks is the San Francisco of corporations, and I applaud them, why not. Why not. They are working. They're being effective. Look at us, we're right now on CNN having this discussion.
FERGUSON: But Don --
HILL: Yes, but see, that's the problem. I mean --
FERGUSON: This is marketing.
LEMON: Go ahead, Marc.
FERGUSON: Here's my thing. Is it marketing -- I think this is just marketing total B.S.
HILL: No, I don't think so.
FERGUSON: About making some cash. I really do.
HILL: I don't think so. I mean --
FERGUSON: I don't think that there's going to be a big conversation that's going to come out of it.
HILL: Well, I agree that there won't be a big conversation, I think it's well intentioned. I know Howard Schultz, and I think he's a good person and I think he has good intentions. But some of the most dangerous people in the world are liberal white people, because of their -- they had their relations between their intentions and the consequences.
FERGUSON: Not liberal black people, right? Just the liberal white people?
HILL: But we're not talking about liberal black people. Last I checked Howard Schultz is a liberal white person, not a liberal black person. We're talking about black people, I'm going to talk about black people. But today we're talking about white people.
But back to the point, I think the danger here is that it reduces race, racial inequality and race talk, to a quick conversation at Starbucks. We can't fix the race problem in America in the five minutes it takes -- 20 minutes it takes in New York to get a Starbucks coffee. You need a real conversation. And it can't -- it can't come unprompted. Someone can't be forced into race talk.
Also it's unclear what the boundaries of that conversation are, you know, in terms -- when I walk into Starbucks, are we going white supremacy, or income inequality, and we're just going to say, what do you think about race? We can't reduce race to this thing -- if we just talk about it and love each other more everything is going to be OK.
LEMON: I want a cafe negro? What did you say to me?
HILL: Exactly.
LEMON: But listen. The CEO, he's never shied away really from hot button issues. Gun control. He's spoken out about government gridlock. I mean, it's hard enough talking about politics with race relations, I'm wondering, though, if this is too taboo a subject for --
FERGUSON: I don't know if it's --
LEMON: Corporate America.
FERGUSON: I don't think it's too taboo, I just think it's somewhat even insensitive to the fact that you think you can reduce this in the time that someone is trying to get their morning coffee on the way to work, and to be honest with you, when I go to get a coffee, I really don't want a lecture from someone who may want to be in that mood about race in America. I just want to get my coffee -- and whether I want two or three creams in it or not, and it shouldn't come down to race.
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: I don't think the intention is to lecture people. I think the intention is to have the dialogue, but again, do we have the tools necessary to have the dialogue? Do we have the language necessary to have the dialogue? And again, are we going to reduce the racial question, the racial conflict in America to a conversation?
LEMON: OK.
HILL: Conversation that don't have budgets attached to them, they don't have policies attached to them, they don't have theories attached to them. We need all of that to really deal with race.
LEMON: Quick response, Perez? Then I want to move on to a different subject.
HILTON: I don't think they're trying to do any of those things. I think they're just planting a seed or planting a coffee bean.
LEMON: Yes.
HILTON: They want to begin the dialogue. They know it's not going to be solved.
LEMON: OK.
HILTON: Or spoken in depth at Starbucks, but let us begin that process.
LEMON: Here's -- I just want to put up --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Hang on. I want to put up this full screen, because they took out a full page ad, as we said, on "New York Times" today and "USA Today." Howard Schultz says this, he says, "It's an opportunity to begin to reexamine how we can create a more empathetic and inclusive society one conversation at a time."
FERGUSON: Hey, if they can do us a favor --
LEMON: Kumbaya --
FERGUSON: If they really want to connect with people, if they really want to connect, can they just change it to small, medium and large to be common and connect with all people?
LEMON: Don't hate.
FERGUSON: That would be amazing.
LEMON: Ben, don't hate.
FERGUSON: I'm just saying.
LEMON: All right.
FERGUSON: Venti and grande, whatever the heck the other one is called.
LEMON: All right. Stay with me for this very large panel -- very grande panel.
When we come right back, "Empire" is one of the hottest shows on television and there is a heated debate behind the scenes about whether to use the N-word in scripts. OK? We'll talk about that. Next.
[22:24:06]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Back now with my grande panel which I think needs more energy so we're going to all get to use some Starbucks coffee. That was sarcasm, by the way.
Ben Ferguson --
FERGUSON: Venti.
LEMON: Marc -- Marc Lamont Hill and Perez Hilton. I just the big one, the small one, the medium one. I'm kind of with you there, Ben.
So, Ben, let's talk about this. I wanted to get this in. The last segment, but let's talk about it now. April issue. "Playboy" magazine. Dick Cheney says Eric Holder and President Obama are, quote, "playing the race card by suggesting that attacks against them may have to do with their ethnicity." He says, "The criticism is merited because of performance or a lack of performance because of incompetence. It has got anything -- it hasn't got anything to do with race."
Do you agree with the vice president?
FERGUSON: I do, especially when it comes to people in Washington. I think that Jimmy Carter got ripped on. George Bush got ripped on. Democrats put a bumper sticker that set up the president, for goodness sakes. And that's called politics. When you are in those positions, you're going to be criticized every single day by someone.
LEMON: OK.
FERGUSON: And just because you get criticized it doesn't mean it's because of the color of your skin.
LEMON: Perez?
HILL: But that;s not the argument.
LEMON: All right. Go ahead, Marc.
HILL: I'm sorry. I apologize. The argument wasn't that just because they got criticized it was about race, or that every time they got criticized it was about race.
But, Ben, you just said that it's never about race. And that's what's bizarre to me. On what basis can you say that it's never about race? What you appeal to determine that it's never about race with Obama?
FERGUSON: I am saying this, when you --
HILL: No, no, no. Can you answer that question?
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: Can you just answer the question?
FERGUSON: I'm answering it. I'm answering. I'm answering it. What I'm saying is everyone else that got criticized every single day of the administration, whether two years or four years, whether you're Bill Clinton or Jimmy Carter. There was none issue of race. And there is a minorities that were ripping on them, and no one accused them of being racist in that position.
HILL: All right, so --
FERGUSON: So why is it now all of a sudden, because someone happens to be African-American, then bam. It's got to be racial.
HILL: Because they happen to be African-American. There were 43 straight presidents who were so yes, the dynamic is different, and there are people who have written letters invoking race. There are people who have made commercials invoking race.
FERGUSON: But, Marc, when you ripped on George Bush.
[22:30:01] HILL: Yes.
FERGUSON: When you ripped on George Bush, I never said, Marc Lamont Hill is being a little bit racist towards George Bush. I didn't say you are being a good liberal Democrat -- you hated George Bush.
LEMON: Oh, you did say that. HILL: Come on.
LEMON: Exactly. You never said that --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: There were people who are hating on George Bush because of race, nobody denying that, it's true.
HILL: I mean, race -- I just want it mind boggling again, but you can say it's never about race, about with every single white person, who criticized Obama is never been about race. Look, there are plenty of reasons to criticize President Obama. I criticize President Obama a lot more than you would like to admit, but the truth is there are times when race is a factor, and when you look at some of the unprecedented levels of disrespect this president has faced, oftentimes, you can link it to race. And it's not --
FERGUSON: I want to -- unprecedent (ph) compare to other presidents to --
LEMON: Perez, you want a popcorn and --
(CROSSTALK)
PEREZ HILTON, AMERICAN GOSSIP BLOGGER: Well, I would just like to say -- I would just like to say that to me, Dick Cheney like the Westboro Baptist Church. I'd rather not like to talk about him. Can we move on?
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: Oh, Perez.
HILTON: If he really worth of our time?
LEMON: Speaking truth to power. Alright. You know, he is absolutely right. So let's move, Perez. Thank you, very much. I want to talk about that Empire, and now the question is whether they should use the N-word, whether it should be scripted. You know Terrence Howard? He plays Lucious. Here's what he had to say to Access Hollywood.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TERRENCE HOWARD, ACTOR: They said that (bleep) used in almost every conversation in most black neighborhoods. Why is that we don't we hear it on the TV anymore? White people are afraid of it, did they create the word? But if it is something that we use on a daily basis, then let's address what it really means?
KIT HOOVER, ACCESS HOLLYWOOD LIVE SHOW CO-HOST: What does the N-word mean to you though?
HOWARD: It could mean love, and sometimes it is a noun, sometimes it's verb...
(CROSSTALK) HOWARD: Sometimes it's an adjective, sometimes it's all -- it bears a
spirit attached to it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So I want to start with Perez, since he has been sitting there...
HILTON: Yes.
LEMON: Quietly sipping his venti cappuccino. Terrence Howard says, he says that he uses it, his dad uses it. He says he does not mean what it used, to the word doesn't mean what it used to. Do you think he has a point?
HILTON: I'm going to take Terrence Howard's baby wipes and wipe my butt with that, OK? Because everything is about context and Empire is a soap opera. It's like a modern day Dynasty, alright? It's not grounded in reality, it should even attempt to be real, because it is so detached from that, I think that -- you know that word is a very powerful word, a very valid word and they have many meanings like he said, but I don't want to see it on the Empire, I want boo-boo kitty, OK?
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: Anybody want to go near that baby wipe comment? I mean --
HILL: I'm not for sure.
FERGUSON: No.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: Alright. So speaking of boo-boo kitty, the person who said -- the character who says boo-boo kitty, to Terrence's character of -- could have been white, not anymore is Taraji P. Henson, she disagrees. TMZ got her. Look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think that show should use the N-word to be more authentic?
TARAJI P. HENSON, ACTRESS: No, you want these people off?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So who's right there Marc? Is it Taraji or is it Terrence?
HILL: I don't think it's -- I don't think it's a question of who's right or who's wrong. I think they both have legitimate takes and I think lots of people have deep and very personal and political perspectives on the N-word. I happened to be more inclined agree with Terrence Howard, that if I'm going to paint a picture and tell a story, I want to use the language that representative of that place. I want to tell, I want to talk how people talk, and I want to how people sound. But I understand the political dimension of not using it. I don't think Taraji is right or wrong, I think it comes down --
LEMON: It is not a reality show though, Marc. I mean, this is -- it is like to Perez' point, it is about -- it's like Dynasty, which is not real. It's like Dallas --
HILL: Yeah, but imagine, but imagine Dallas about a southern access, right? Imagine -- I mean, it does -- it's not real in this --
LEMON: Accents?
HILL: You know? --
LEMON: Drip-drop, drip, drip, pity-drop. You know, this song that --
HILL: Well, you know, I guess my point is it's not -- it's fantasy but it also appears to some sense of reality for people. And I think using authentic language isn't a bad thing, I don't think it's necessary, but I don't -- I wouldn't be -- I would not have a problem with it.
LEMON: Ben, I want to ask you this about -- especially considering our -- what's her name? Lindsay Lohan. Lindsay Lohan...
FERGUSON: Yeah.
LEMON: Tweeted this, who is talking about Kanye. She said, Kanye and Kim, all day nigga, fun show #PFW. Paris -- (inaudible) Paris Fashion Week...
HILTON: Paris Fashion Week.
LEMON: She said, good people equal good life, all from good moms. And then she quickly edited it and then she deleted it. But I want to play this. This is last night, and we have conversation -- take a look at this, and then we will talk about it. Trinidad James.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRINIDAD JAMES, MUSICAL ARTIST: I will call you Ben, my nigga. And when I call you that, you do not feel that I hate you.
LEMON: But what if Ben said to you --
JAMES: It's love.
FERGSUON: I'm sure that.
LEMON: What if Ben said to you...
FERGUSON: If I said to you?
LEMON: Trinidad, what if Ben said to you, Trinidad, what's up, my nigga? What would you think?
JAMES: Ben, what I would tell you, if I honestly felt that you are my nigga? Then you are my nigga, Ben.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK, so Ben, what is the difference, because she was using it as a term of endearment, Ben? Do you think that there was a difference? Do you think it is a double standard?
[22:34:58] FERGUSON: I think that it is a double standard and I think that's more of the reason why we really should haven't the word continue to be used, because when you use it whether it is in this TV show, or whether in rap music and other people say it, it is going to continuing to keep the word alive. And some people are going to use it in a very negative way --
LEMON: Marc, were you just mouthing the word?
FERGUSON: Yeah, of course he was, because that --
HILL: I am just messing with Ben.
FERGUSON: Marc, Marc...
HILL: You are so religious about this word.
FERGUSON: I think Marc loves --
HILL: You are so religious about this word.
FERGUSON: I think Marc loves --
LEMON: Don't speak from me. Don't speak from me. I am not religious about this word.
FERGUSON: I think, I think --
HILL: I know mean you so. I know you are not, Don.
LEMON: You mean y'all at white people?
HILL: No, I mean, y'all who had that position has plenty of...
LEMON: Alright.
HILL: Blacks who have that position. I just think it's bizarre.
FERGUSON: But you could --
HILL: Here's the thing, we --
FERGUSON: Lindsay Lohan -- hold on. Lindsay Lohan got ripped on because she is white even though in that situation...
HILL: Yes.
FERGUSON: I think most people would agree that she was giving a compliment. The point is -- LEMON: Ah...
HILTON: Well she is quoting a Kanye --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: I want to hear it from the other white guy on the panel who writes about this stuff all of the time.
HILTON: Yes.
LEMON: Go ahead, Perez.
HILTON: I have a motto in life I live by, Don. That's WWOD, when in doubt, what would Oprah do? Alright? Oprah is very against the N-word and I will defer to her --
HILL: I--
HILTON: As we all should.
LEMON: OK. That is the last thing. What would Oprah do? Because you know? You know, she is like Jesus. Alright, thank you very much. We appreciate -- have to tell you this, I am really excited about this. Tomorrow night, the queen of soul, the one and only Aretha Franklin is here. The original re-re, she is talking about her career, and how her song became a soundtrack for the civil rights movement and to my childhood and growing up in my adult life and to all of my family's, and most people I know. Aretha Franklin, right here with me, tomorrow night, I could not be more excited in Muhammad (ph). And when we come back, fashionistas Dolce and Gabbana set up a firestorm with comments about in-vitro fertilization, and angry Elton John calling for a boycott of their clothes, his children who conceived thru IVF, so as Clay Aiken son, up next. Clay Aiken gonna weigh in on this controversy.
[22:37:01 ]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:40:55] LEMON: Elton John is feeling the love tonight. Support is growing for his boycott against Dolce and Gabbana. At Domenico Dolce told the Italian magazine, Panorama poltergeist, "I am not convinced by those I call the children of chemicals, synthetic children, rented uterus, semen children from a catalog, a psychiatrist are not ready to confront the effect of this experiment patient." Dolce and Gabbana, we're referring to in-vitro fertilization and said same sex couples should not raise children. By the way, they were couple at one point, they're both gay. Joining me now is Clay Aiken, a gay parent himself. I mean, what --
CLAY AIKEN, SINGER-SONGWRITER: You've got to laugh a little. I mean, it is absurd. At some point things becomes so absurd that if you get too upset about them, then the other side is winning. And this is just absurd. LEMON: That's a part of you that doesn't like -- who cares what they
have to say, but they are influential figures who happened to be gay, so it's hypocritical to some that they would say have a position like this.
AIKEN: Well, I think it is hypocritical to people but, just I mean, I think we've already seen with the boycott that people are starting to mount and I think, even people who are not necessarily on the side of same-sex marriage in this country are quite offended by this. I mean, in-vitro fertilization is a method used by, by straight couples as well.
LEMON: Well, let's talk about straight couples...
AIKEN: Yeah.
LEMON: And this is the gay couples who are lucky enough to - or just say lucky enough, happened to be able to capitalize on it after straight couples have been doing it for years and years, and years and years. So it's not just a gay issue...
AIKEN: But they have been a lot more than just gays.
LEMON: Yeah, a lot of people -- and listen, that's a reality these days. When people have a career, many women are using in-vitro now, to be -- to stay fertile for a longer period of time. So, this is a universal issue, not just about Elton John...
AIKEN: Right.
LEMON: And or -- you know, two gay couples fighting over IVF. So this is what Elton posted, he said, "How dare you refer to my beautiful children as synthetic. And shame on you for wagging your judgmental little fingers at IVF -- a miracle that has allowed legions of loving people, both straight and gay, to fulfill their dream of having children. Your archaic thinking is out of step with the times, just like your fashions. I shall never wear Dolce and Gabbana ever again." #BoycottDolceGabanna. Don't mess with Elton --
AIKEN: Right, he is pretty mad. Listen --
LEMON: Sort of (ph) by the way.
AIKEN: You're messing with his kids too.
LEMON: Right.
AIKEN: Which is you know, any parent can tell you, don't mess with my child.
LEMON: You became a father through a good friend who is willing...
AIKEN: Right.
LEMON: Through IVF, right?
AIKEN: Correct.
LEMON: So, this touches you personally.
AIKEN: Well it does. But again, again, you know, I've said before my mom use to tell me to chill out every time I come home from school and be upset if somewhat call her fat, and she said, I'm not fat, who cares? The truth is, I've got an incredible kid. I've got a wonderful son who is, who is certainly not artificial. I'm not -- I, you know, I feel it is absurd the things they said, but I am not insulted nor do I think it diminishes my child.
LEMON: OK. I -- I understand that because I have that same feeling about but, at the end of the day you are human and it had to hit you --
AIKEN: And you what? I've really --
LEMON: A certain kind of way.
AIKEN: You know what? I've really have spent so many years dealing with those types of comments...
LEMON: Right.
AIKEN: I don't let it get to me...
LEMON: I don't.
AIKEN: I think it is completely ridiculous. Although, you know, I support -- I certainly won't be buying anymore of theirs.
LEMON: I'm with you on that. Congratulations. That's a great attitude to have. OK, so Ricky Martin, here's what Ricky Martin tweeted, "Your voices are too powerful to be spreading so much hate. Wake up. It's 2015.love yourself guys." Do you think that this -- those comments are self hating?
AIKEN: You know, I think that there's a culture for - you know, the culture in Italy, The culture within the religious community in that may come from Italy. It's not completely different than certain people in the south. I have friends who are man who are 40-years-old, who are still not out. Do I think they are self-hating? No. But do I think that they have yet progress on that personal journey, as far as some other people have. You know, not either. And I think -- I think Dolce and Gabbana are probably in a place in their path where they -- they are conflicted between the religious views and their -- and their -- you know, their preferences.
LEMON: Elton John and Ricky Martin -- by the way, that feelings are not the only people speaking out...
AIKEN: Right.
LEMON: That there are number of people who could see their children through --
AIKEN: Don't, don't confuse that I am not speaking out against them either.
LEMON: I mean, you know, you're right. But, are they the thought police, because here is what -- Stephano Gabbana has called on John a factious (p-h) and corporate boycott of Elton John. I mean...
(LAUGHTER)
[22:45:00] LEMON: Do they have the right in some ways to -- because they do, but there are people --
AIKEN: You can call for whatever you like to. I don't think anybody --
LEMON: But people have the right to respond...
AIKEN: Of course.
LEMON: To something that you said. AIKEN: Absolutely. You know, I think that people have the right -- I
don't think anybody has gonna be boycotting Elton John for supporting his children. You know, I think that I support a boycott. I think that's what most important, and also that we used it as an opportunity to educate. If they can get people's attention and give them the opportunity to educate themselves, you know, hopefully, that will be a success for me not just hurting.
LEMON: Before I let you go, I want this seem to be fair, because this is -- they released a joint statement, OK? Dolce and Gabbana said, "We believe firmly in democracy and we think freedom of expression is essential for that. We talk about our way of looking at the world but, it was not our intention to express a judgment on other people's choices. We believe in freedom and love." Do you think that's an apology or whatever this is...
AIKEN: I think it was --
LEMON: Is it not enough?
AIKEN: I think it was well written by their PR people. I don't think it's very -- it doesn't seem very sincere, I don't think it will be enough and I think that it's not the kind of, you know true male couple. That they were really gonna need to make if they want repair --
LEMON: Do you truly believe in something? Don't apologize. Stand by your words if you really --
AIKEN: Fair enough. You know, you starting to back up because it's gonna hurt business...
LEMON: Yeah.
AIKEN: So you know that's not a hypocritical --
LEMON: Would you get rid of the Dolce and Gabbana?
AIKEN: I wouldn't throw it away -- (LAUGHTER)
AIKEN: If it still fits me.
LEMON: Or maybe you would...
AIKEN: If it still fits me. I got to keep it...
LEMON: Maybe just wear for private party.
AIKEN: I'm not gonna buy it anymore...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Yeah, alright. (inaudible)
AIKEN: Right.
LEMON: Thank you.
AIKEN: Thank you very much.
LEMON: And when we come right back, college does not have to define who you are. Look at how much I've changed -- Oh my, gosh, since my days as an LFU tiger. And I used to have a girlfriend back then. Coming up, Frank Bruni is back to tell you why -- where you go is not who you will be.
[22:46:47] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:50:35] LEMON: High school seniors across the country are anxiously awaiting to find out where they will spend the next four years of their lives or more. But is it worth all of the stress? I am going to bring back Frank Bruni now. I'm telling you the truth Frank. This is his new book, it's called, Where You Go Is Not Who You'll Be, and anecdote to college admissions mania where you will be, antidote to College Admissions Mania. I want it sign and I want to read this too because, you know a lot of people relate to this. It's all really about the competition, the craziness, the hysteria involved in getting into college.
FRANK BRUNI, AUTHOR, WHERE YOU GO IS NOT WHO YOU'LL BE: We have made this a brutal season and a brutal process for kids. And what concerns me is we've given away to many of them the message, that if they don't get into one of this ridiculously selective schools, it's gonna follow them for the rest of their lives. It's not true --
LEMON: Follow them how? What do mean?
BRUNI: I mean, this is, this is the way. This is the way they approach --
LEMON: Oh, my God, muffy (ph)...
BRUNI: Yeah. LEMON: If I can't get into Harvard --
BRUNI: You know, Harvard, Harvard said no to me, Overland said no to me...
LEMON: Oh, geez.
BRUNI: It's all over. And, I mean, your proof and we can talk about this but, life is full of people who bloomed later, who took different pass to success. And I got a lot of profiles in the book of people who went to schools that don't make you go weak in the knees, but use those schools in great ways and learned across the whole of their lives and became, you know, fulfilled, successful people. It's great --
LEMON: It is very impressive, and I am not knocking anyone if you -- if that is where your life takes you. I think it's fantastic, but I know so many -- most of the successful people I know did not go to prestigious universities, maybe I am just hanging in the wrong circles.
BRUNI: Well, most people don't go to prestigious universities so the odds are that will be the case, but what's interesting is we've created a narrative in this country where we notice when successful people have gone to the Ivy League, and we talk about it incessantly, and when successful people haven't, as you said, there's more even more haven't, we don't make that part of their biography.
LEMON: Yeah.
BRUNI: I interviewed one of your colleagues...
LEMON: That's a commissioner (ph) Christiane Amanpour.
BRUNI: Christiane Amanpour is on the book. Most people probably don't know where she went to college.
LEMON: I think she went to Brown, right?
BRUNI: Right. Because she mentions providence and they assume all, must be Brown, no -- University of Rhode Island.
LEMON: Yeah. I started at LSU and I know my staff has some pictures there. I left...
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: That I told, I was told I would never make it in this business. I left there -- that's me back in the 80s. Look at that, I was so skinny, and that with little catfish mustache, and then I moved to New York City. I started working in the news station, Fox5 here on the upper side, and then I went back to school finished at Brooklyn College. And I wasn't even finished school yet when I got a job and they allowed me to finish my studies, when I had a full time job, and there was my first job in Birmingham, Alabama as a weekend anchor, and here I am. BRUNI: Right. And that is not college path that is nothing like what
so many this kids believe that have to follow towards success, and it makes the point. Success -- there are so many different paths to success, and not all of life is determined by the span of days in late March, early April when you get your yeses and no's.
LEMON: Right.
BRUNI: It's the beginning of life, it's not the end.
LEMON: it's -- you can probably -- if you really believe in yourself...
BRUNI: Yes.
LEMON: And you work hard enough...
BRUNI: Yes.
LEMON: I truly believe that.
BRUNI: Yes.
LEMON: And you don't listen to the noise. There is nothing that you can't accomplish, at both of the schools. The one that didn't like me so much, told me I'd never make it, I haven't given the commencement, I think 2012 or 2013 at their journalism school. At the other the one I gave the commencement at 2010 and both of those, I never thought of the million years that I would be the person standing there telling college students what they should.
BRUNI: And there are many stories like yours in the book. Drive, grit, ingenuity, resilience, these things matter so much more than the name on your diploma...
LEMON: Yeah.
BRUNI: And we are not giving kids that message. We are giving them a much more limited message that setting them the up for heartbreak in many cases.
LEMON: Quick advice. What is your best advice, besides wear sunscreen but -- what is your best advice?
BRUNI: Commit yourself to learning, and when you are coming up to college...
LEMON: Yeah.
BRUNI: Ask yourself how much you can get out of the college, not how selective it is.
LEMON: I will hold it up because I know the book just once you got it grueling media.
BRUNI: I enjoy talking about it because it is a passion project. (CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Where You Go Is Not Who You'll Be, an antidote to College Admission Mania by Frank Bruni. Make sure you'll but it. Thank you.
BRUNI: Thank you.
LEMON: Appreciated. We'll be right back.
[22:54:28] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: If you are struggling to make ends meet, a simple problem like a broken down car can put your health, your job, even your home at risk. Our first CNN Hero of 2015 is doing something to help.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I had been a delivery driver, coming up on a year. Having a car problem just brings a lot of stress. My calipers are seized, the smell of gas, I'm definitely worried about my safety. Having two daughters, it just really heightened the situation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was a social worker for 15 years. I kept seeing people struggling with making ends meet. One car repair can upset the entire apple cart. I kept thinking, why isn't somebody doing something about this. Then on one day occurred to me, oh, dang, I think that somebody might be me. I did not grow up working on cars. So I ended up getting a degree in auto technology.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Every time I get in a car, I smell it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does it get worse when you turn on the heat. How it difference than a regular garage is that have to meet certain income requirements.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was quoted close to $1,400.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We charge the customer $15 an hour for labor. Market rate was about $100 an hour. We don't do mark-up on the parts. So, it is a lot less, it's going to be about $300.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And I would even give you guys more, you know.
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A car that works allows them to meet the basic needs of their lives with dignity. Thank you for your patience.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Give me hug.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They fixed everything.
[23:00:00] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is a lot of weight off my shoulders.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thanks (inaudible). It is about moving people forward and moving their lives forward. (END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Know some who deserves recognition, got to cnnheroes.com right now and tell us all about it.
