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Don Lemon Tonight
What is the "Entertainment Ghetto"?; Aretha Franklin Discusses Divas. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired March 18, 2015 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:11] DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.
An honor student in Virginia slammed into the ground and bloodied as alcohol control agents arrest him. A mentally ill man in Dallas armed only with a screwdriver shot dead by police.
Both incidents disturbing, graphic and caught on camera. But what really happened? We'll have those stories for you.
Plus, the network TV show everyone is talking about. "Empire" of course. The top rated saga of a fictional first family of hip-hop just aired its season finale, but some critics are saying, not so fast.
I'm going to talk to the man who calls "Empire," and this is a quote from him, "a ghetto-fied hood drama that sells stereotypes about black people.
Plus the one and only queen of soul, Aretha Franklin, up close and personal, what she thinks of a song that has become a theme song for a whole lot of us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARETHA FRANKLIN, SINGER: "Respect" was a mantra for the civil rights movement. It was.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: We're going to talk about all of that tonight but I want to begin with 20-year-old UVA student Martese Johnson.
As officers are about to arrest him early this morning for public intoxication and obstruction of justice, he is thrown to the ground and bloodied.
Now I want you to see for yourself what happened but I have to warn you, OK, the video is graphic.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, his head is bleeding. Yo, his head is bleeding. No, his head is bleeding.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I go to UVA. I go to UVA, (EXPLETIVE DELETED). I go to UVA.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why are you fighting?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You racist.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Behind your back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You (EXPLETIVE DELETED) racist. What the (EXPLETIVE DELETED)? How does this happen? How does this happen? You racist. How did this happen?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, we'd just like -- yo, what -- you check your I.D.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How does this happen, you (EXPLETIVE DELETED) racist. You (EXPLETIVE DELETED) racist.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yo, was that necessary, yo?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And Johnson's head injury required 10 stitches.
So joining me now is CNN's justice reporter Evan Perez.
Evan, what's the latest on this -- this video is really shocking. What's the latest here?
EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, Don, this is a -- you know, a really shocking video, as you said, partly because, you know, you have a kid, a college student who is drinking on St. Patrick's Day, and ends up bloodied and beaten and as you can see, you know, it looks like there a lot of force being used for something that is, you know, for a lot of kids usually they just get turned away from a bar.
According to the police down there, according to the Virginia Alcohol Beverage Control Department, the agents were, you know, observing bars as they do on a big night of drinking obviously, and they see him being turned away. This kid's name is Martese Johnson. He's 20 years old. Third year student there at the University of Virginia. And they see him being turned away from this bar, and they decide to try to detain him to try to investigate further.
It appears from the video, and according to the police, that they believe he was resisting, and he was not cooperative and that's the reason why they used that force.
Now we don't know everything part of this, we don't know what happened before this video started to the shoot, and so that's part of what is now being investigated by the University of Virginia.
LEMON: Why is this video -- why is this story going viral, Evan?
PEREZ: Well, you know, I think it's -- in light of Michael Brown, in light of Trayvon Martin, in light of many of these incidents recently with the authorities and young black men. Certainly, the black student association down there at the University of Virginia thinks that this is something that fits in that pattern of excessive force by the police.
I will read you a statement from Daniel Watkins who is an attorney representing Martese Johnson in which he says that he has -- this is a kid who he says has very high achievement standards at the University of Virginia. He says, "I have spoken to him several times today, and he is absolutely devastated by yesterday's events. Currently we are preparing to investigate and defend this matter vigorously."
I should add that this is a kid with apparently has very high grades. He's not someone who's gotten in trouble. Has no criminal record. So, again, that's playing into part of why this is getting some attention -- Don.
LEMON: Evan Perez, thank you.
Evan will be on top of the story.
We want to talk about it now by bringing Harry Houck, a retired New York Police Department detective, and criminal defense attorney Adam Thompson also here.
So, Harry, let's talk about this video of Martese Johnson. First, let's look at it and then we'll discuss.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, his head is bleeding. Yo, his head is bleeding. No, his head is bleeding.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I go to UVA. I go to UVA, (EXPLETIVE DELETED). I go to UVA.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why are you fighting?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You racist.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Behind your back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You (EXPLETIVE DELETED) racist. What the (EXPLETIVE DELETED)? How does this happen? How does this happen? You racist.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So a lot of the details, Harry, are -- they're still unknown.
HARRY HOUCK, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE: Right.
LEMON: But as you look at this, we still have to figure it out, it has to be investigated, but as you -- if you look at this, what stands out to you in this video?
[22:05:05] HOUCK: Well, I think that based on this video, the part that we're seeing -- again I'll just say, we didn't see the before part of this video, but it feels like the officers are pretty much treating him with kid gloves as far as I'm concerned getting him down on the ground.
LEMON: You don't think -- look at his face is bloodied, you don't think that's excessive?
HOUCK: Well, that's probably because of the takedown, because he was resisting arrest. I mean, you're sitting there, he looks like he's resisting from getting his hands cuffed, all right. When he is pulling back like this, so the officers are pretty much -- and I don't see the officers hitting on him. I would have my knee in this guy's --
LEMON: But, if -- for someone who has -- possibly has a fake I.D. or who has been drinking or trying to get in the bar, it's St. Patrick's Day, I got off of work, and there were lots of drunk people out on the streets, out on the roads.
HOUCK: Sure. But we don't know --
LEMON: I mean, what's the protocol for that sort of thing? Especially having a fake I.D., or trying to get in the club underage. Everybody did it.
HOUCK: Of course, everybody. He was probably intoxicated and when he was approached by the police -- and I don't know for sure about this. Approached by the police, he probably became a wise guy, all right, and the officers, I guess, decided that they're going to lock him out for disorderly conduct, I don't know, all right? They took him down, they tried to arrest him, he resisted arrest and they took him down.
LEMON: OK.
HOUCK: As a result of the takedown, he probably got the injury.
LEMON: Adam, he had been turned away, as we said, from a bar. He was pulled aside by alcohol, beverage control -- Alcohol and Beverage Control agent. It quickly escalated.
Does it look to you that police overreacted here?
ADAM THOMPSON, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Don, I have been doing these cases for over 25 year. Criminal cases, civil rights cases, and especially police brutality.
Harry, you're completely wrong and I'll tell you why. When you look at this tape, we don't know the whole tape, so things could have happened before the tape starts rolling, but what's important here is we know what the charges are currently. One is for obstruction of justice, but it says without any force. Meaning --
LEMON: Without threat of force and --
THOMPSON: Meaning that he was not a threat.
LEMON: Yes.
THOMPSON: The other thing was for public intoxication, et cetera. No charge of resisting arrest.
LEMON: OK. Let me read this.
THOMPSON: So no resisting. No resisting.
LEMON: Hold on.
THOMPSON: No resisting.
LEMON: Hold on. I want to read this.
THOMPSON: No violence.
LEMON: It says, he was taken into custody, he was charged with resisting arrest, as you said, obstructing justice, without threats of force and profane swearing or intoxication in public. So we hear him screaming him. So the --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Would that within itself warrant -- should he have been arrested?
THOMPSON: Well, he could get arrested for public intoxication, and so on, or having a false I.D. but with this tape we're talking about excessive force. Did he need to be violently thrown to the ground, resulting in his head striking the concrete and 10 stitches later? No.
HOUCK: We don't know that.
THOMPSON: It could have been -- it could have been --
HOUCK: We have no video. All right? We haven't talked to any witnesses --
THOMPSON: Unless there's clear proof that there was resisting arrest.
HOUCK: All right?
THOMPSON: From what we saw, there is over reaction in that tape.
HOUCK: That was definitely resisting arrest when you hit the ground.
LEMON: OK.
THOMPSON: Police need to be better trained.
LEMON: All right.
HOUCK: When he was on the ground that was resisting arrest.
THOMPSON: But from what we saw. LEMON: All right.
THOMPSON: What we saw, was he resisting in that video? No.
HOUCK: Yes, he was.
THOMPSON: He absolutely was not.
HOUCK: You didn't you see him going like this?
THOMPSON: He absolutely was not.
LEMON: OK. Two New Yorkers, what we saw. S-A-W with an R. I know you're New Yorkers just the same.
I want to turn to another story now. This one is in Texas where a mentally ill man was shot dead by police last (INAUDIBLE). The whole incident was captured on police body cam, and again, we want to warn you that this is very graphic and it's very disturbing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn't ask them money.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police. Hello.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How are you doing? What's going on?
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bipolar and schizo.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's going on?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop it. Drop that for me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jay.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jay.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jay.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jay, watch out. Oh, my god. Watch out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shots fired. We're code three. Drop that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop it. Drop it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Put it down.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, no, you shot him.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have black male, gunshot on the porch.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. Drop it, guy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, Harry, you first. We can see that Jason Harrison has a screwdriver in his hand.
HOUCK: Right.
LEMON: Is that considered a deadly weapon? Did police do the right thing here? Did they act properly?
HOUCK: Well, when he was standing in the doorway and he's got his screwdriver, you get that in your eye, you can probably die. OK? So the fact that once he came out, after the officer, and we can see on the cam, all right? He came at the officer with the screwdriver, the officer had to fire.
LEMON: He had to?
HOUCK: He had to fire.
LEMON: Do you think he had to fire?
THOMPSON: I don't think he did and I'll tell you why. In this situation, and I just want to say, if this doesn't make the case why all police officers should wear body cams, imagine if there was no body cam on these police officers, we wouldn't know anything that happened because the video speaks for itself.
We would hear just the police officer's version, and maybe a frantic mom who just saw her son killed. But why -- it didn't need to be this force. Going to this location is always key to know what the dispatcher tells them.
[22:10:02] Dispatcher tells them there's an emotionally disturbed person. They know before that door opens they have to treat this call differently. They have to be aware that the person may be a little off and have other means to subdue him or contain him ready.
(CROSSTALK)
THOMPSON: Like a taser, like a baton.
HOUCK: Should they take a screwdriver to the face or the neck or the eye?
THOMPSON: Absolutely not.
(CROSSTALK)
THOMPSON: But if you know that door is going to open and it's a person who's emotionally disturbed, they are trained to create a zone of safety. They could have been further back. If he posed a dangerous threat to anyone, you have a taser ready, a taser takes him right down. The screwdriver is pointless at that point.
HOUCK: First of all, when they -- when they go up to the door, the mother and the father come out. Apparently they thought he was dangerous enough that they had to call the police on their own son. When they came out --
(CROSSTALK)
THOMPSON: No. No. They had called hundreds of times in the past about him.
HOUCK: That's right.
LEMON: Been at the house dozens of times.
HOUCK: That's right.
LEMON: Told the dispatcher that he had problems, she said that he was bipolar, and according to her schizo, that's a quote, I'm not saying that. And she requested officers with training in mental -- or people who have mental issues.
HOUCK: Right.
THOMPSON: And you said something very important.
(CROSSTALK)
THOMPSON: Called a hundred times.
LEMON: Guys, some control.
THOMPSON: So before going they know how to handle this situation.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Harry, hang on.
HOUCK: A hundred times he didn't have a weapon in the hands.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Let's listen to his brother.
THOMPSON: How do you know?
HOUCK: I don't know but I'm saying.
LEMON: Let's listen to his brother. Here's his brother.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEAN HARRISON, VICTIM'S BROTHER: They should not have been yelling orders off the top. Because you've got someone that's -- already confused, and now you stick a gun in their face, and you yell at them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, again, 10 seconds they requested -- they're familiar with him. That's very quickly. Is that -- that's not de-escalating the situation if he's dead within 10 seconds. No?
HOUCK: Well, come on. He came directly at the officers. The officers have got to protect themselves, right. There was a car in the driveway. They couldn't -- they don't know what they're seeing. You're not going to knock on the door, all right, you don't know what you're going to come up with, until somebody comes out that door. And the officers were close by, all right. There's a 22-feet that is the clearance when somebody has got a knife.
LEMON: Yes.
HOUCK: That -- where you don't have to shoot somebody right away.
LEMON: OK.
HOUCK: They were like six feet apart.
LEMON: I want you to listen to this. This is at the scene -- right after it happened or during the altercation, right? I want you to listen to officers and respond to this. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is still alive. He is still alive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do we handcuff him?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just kick that over there.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, no, oh, no.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don't let that get too far.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Watch that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was in the doorway, he had the screwdriver, we had this behind us, we had to shoot. He came after us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So the mom is screaming, the officer is saying -- one of the officers saying, he's still alive. HOUCK: Right.
LEMON: Why didn't they offer help if he's still alive? What -- is that protocol? What's going on?
HOUCK: Well, I think one of them said that they had EMS already on their way, which you can hear in the background, that EMS was on the way as far as -- you know, maybe they should have given the guy aid. I don't know how badly he was bleeding. Sometimes --
THOMPSON: Usually protocol, the police shoot at the scene, do the best they can, but wait for the EMS to come.
LEMON: Right.
THOMPSON: But this should be really a video of the trained police officers, how to handle emotionally disturbed persons.
LEMON: Thank you, Adam Thompson.
HOUCK: They're going to be exonerated.
LEMON: Thank you, Harry Houck.
HOUCK: I'll tell you right now.
LEMON: We'll have you back. Thank you very much.
HOUCK: OK. Thanks, Don.
LEMON: Tomorrow, in the wake of violent confrontation with police across the country, confrontations, are we rethinking Ferguson? We learned that hands up, don't shoot is not what really happened. Now we're revisiting what we know and don't know about the death of Michael Brown and the aftermath.
"Ferguson, Race, Truth and Justice," that's tomorrow 10:00 p.m. Eastern right here on CNN.
And when we come back, Ann Coulter weighs in on all of this and President Obama's lame duck presidency.
Plus, "Empire" is the hottest show on network television right now, but some say it is playing on the worst stereotypes about African- Americans.
We'll get into that debate tonight.
And bow down to the queen of soul. Oh, yes, Aretha Franklin is here tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:17:44] LEMON: Israel's prime minister scores a major victory at the polls and my next guest is one of his biggest fans. Ann Coulter once said she wishes Benjamin Netanyahu could be president of the United States. The conservative columnist is the author of "Never Trust a Liberal over Three, Especially a Republican."
Well, she joins me now. And we're going to talk about Netanyahu in a moment. But first we're going to break the Internet tonight.
Because every time you come on, the social media traffic is just ridiculous. I want to get your reaction to the last segment on these two videos of police brutality. Is it police brutality?
ANN COULTER, CONSERVATIVE COLUMNIST: I wasn't paying that close attention. The screwdriver one, the man who was defending the cop, I think -- I think is correct certainly from what I know about police training, and how quickly someone can run at you.
LEMON: Yes.
COULTER: I did go through, you know, just for fun some training on, you know, self-defense and -- down at Quantico, and how quickly someone can kill you from -- I think he said 22 feet, I remember it being 10 yards or something. Someone can run really fast and get you in the neck with a knife or a screwdriver.
LEMON: So --
COULTER: And I see these videos and just think, oh my gosh, I'm so glad I'm not a policeman, and I can just close my door and call the police, but they can't do that.
LEMON: It needs to be -- it needs to be investigated more, but I want to ask you because early on, it may have been you on the show, and I wondered in the headlines that went crazy, CNN's Don Lemon wonders if hands up, don't shoot is a false narrative. That was back in December.
So some say now that hands up, don't shoot was built on a lie. And you believe so?
COULTER: Well, that is what Eric Holder's report says. I mean, what they ended up I wrote about it today in my column this week. What they ended up having to say was, you know, there are only indicia of racist America is, blacks get too many traffic tickets in Ferguson, but I mean, according to Eric Holder's report itself -- there were two reports. The criminal division report on whether Darren Wilson was justified in the shooting, said, yes, he was absolutely -- it was justified self-defense.
The witnesses who claimed his hands were up were systematically discredited one by one, even more so than the grand jury report did. One witness who had claimed the gentle giant Mike Brown's hands were up said that she did it because -- to support the community. And another witness, witness number 110 I think said, he said that Brown's hands were up because it just makes common sense. Well, that's not being a witness.
LEMON: Well, and the thing is that, some of the people who came on television didn't tell the same story. They said one thing on television. They told investigators and the FBI and the Justice Department a different story.
COULTER: Yes.
LEMON: Let's move on now to Benjamin Netanyahu. He declared victory today in Israel. Last year, you said that you wished Netanyahu was the president of the United States. Why is that?
COULTER: Well, I wish Republicans would take a page from Netanyahu's book. He appeals to national patriotism and nationalism. He aggressively opposes illegal immigration, builds a fence, and he winds a landslide. How about -- how about some Republicans notice how well Netanyahu is doing? And he swung the Jewish vote, by the way.
LEMON: Yes. Do you think that President Obama is redefining lame- duck presidency? Someone wrote about it on CNN.com saying that the narrative is all wrong. Actually what the president has been doing for over the last couple of years is now coming to fruition. And that is in the -- a false narrative by Republicans that he is not doing a good job?
COULTER: I think he's not doing a good job. I don't really know what he's been doing since --really after he had both the Democratic House and the Democratic Senate, other than messing things up around the world and making --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Sixty million people have signed up for health plans under Obamacare. The unemployment rate is 5.5 percent. Its lowest point since May 2008 before the great depression. He has pushed forward on negotiations with longtime enemies, Iran and Cuba. Making good on a promise of outreach first made in his presidential debate way back in 2007. He's trying to make ways with immigration and on and on. So why --
COULTER: OK. Let's take those -- I'll give you quick answers.
LEMON: OK.
COULTER: And yet a majority of Americans still oppose Obamacare. They want the health care they had. I'm among them. I was thrown off a health care plan I liked, I was happy with, but Obamacare made it illegal.
What was your point two? The unemployment rate. Everybody knows that's a scam. It's because we stopped counting people who stopped looking for work and are completely out of the job market. If we counted the unemployment rate the way they do, for example, in Canada, it would be 23 percent.
And as for the negotiations with Iran, I mean, that isn't accomplishing anything, and in fact, things don't look very good. I do not consider violating the Constitution in order to announce this unilateral amnesty rather than going through Congress, of course, he can't do that. Of course, it's unconstitutional. And for a policy most Americans adamantly oppose. LEMON: Quickly here, let's talk about Hillary Clinton. Let's move on
to 2016. Her e-mail. Does anyone really care about Hillary's e-mail except for people who are deeply involved in politics and perhaps conservative media?
(LAUGHTER)
COULTER: I think that's a loaded question, Don. It's just always the same with Hillary, as I have said before, I mean, this latest scandal, it just -- it makes me really question how bright she is. This is the sort of thing that -- well, as I believe one of the topics we were going to get to, this is the sort of thing Aaron Schock would do, and a young member of the House of Representatives.
This is the kind of rookie mistake someone who hasn't been in politics her entire life would make. And on one hand, yes, you have conservatives saying, and I think there's some truths to this, but she operates like a mafia don and creates this parallel universe where in order to hide her e-mails from future investigators, that is kind --
LEMON: That sounds --
COULTER: Even her defense is pathetic and embarrassing.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: That sounds a little conspiracy --
COULTER: And I think shows a level of stupidity.
LEMON: Creating an alternate universe, I think, Ann. But anyway --
COULTER: Well, with her own server.
LEMON: Yes.
COULTER: But even if -- even if her defense is correct, I made a mistake.
LEMON: All right. I got -- I've got to go.
COULTER: How many years you have to be in politics not to make this same mistake over and over and over again.
LEMON: You'll be in New York soon, and we'll have you here on set. Thank you for coming on tonight.
COULTER: Thank you, Don.
LEMON: All right.
"Empire," the hottest show in network television watched by millions, but is it pushing the worst stereotypes about African-Americans? We're going to debate that next.
[22:24:21] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: The smash hit, and I mean, smash hit primetime drama, "Empire" wrapped up its first season tonight. Audiences love it, but not everybody is a fan and tonight we're digging into that controversy.
Here to debate it is Nischelle Turner, CNN contributor and "Entertainment Tonight" host, Chris Witherspoon is a CNN analyst and entertainment editor for Grio.com, and Dr. Boyce Watkins, founder of FinancialJuneteenth.com.
Spoiler alert, we're going to play some clips from tonight.
"Empire" is television's hottest show. A black "Dynasty." Let's watch a clip from tonight's highly anticipated two-hour finale.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TARAJI HENSON, ACTOR: Tell me why I shouldn't throw this drink in your bitch-ass face.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you sure this was a good idea?
BRYSHERE Y. GRAY, ACTOR: Are you sure you want this company?
GRACE GEALEY, ACTOR: Because you'll never get up off the floor, bitch.
HENSON: Look, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. She was talking trash. You ain't no punk.
(CROSSTALK)
GEALEY: You've been harassing from the moment you arrived.
HENSON: Let it go.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You two are disturbing.
HENSON: And who's the boo-boo kitty now, bitch. OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You OK?
HENSON: Right now, ho.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NISCHELLE TURNER, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: I'm on the West Coast, I have not seen it yet. Oh, man.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: Fifteen million -- nearly 15 million live viewers last week. I can only imagine this week, number one show, number one in the all- important 18 to 49-year-old demo.
So why did it take so long, Nischelle, for a black drama like "Empire" to come along?
TURNER: Well, you know, first of all, there are other black dramas or a black-centered show on television.
[22:30:06] So I don't know if I would say why did it take so long? I think that the emergence and the brilliance of Shonda Rhimes opened a lot of television executives' eyes to say, maybe, we should put shows on television. The kind of mirror society and black viewership was taken for granted for a while, but with the success of those episodes, I think people just said, you know what? It's about time...
LEMON: Yeah.
TURNER: That we stop being narrowed minded...
LEMON: OK.
TURNER: In television, and broaden our horizons.
LEMON: OK. I -- and I agree with you. But if you look on major networks, not many, there are maybe -- you know networks that are up and coming, or what have you or BET or whatever networks that are geared towards the African-Americans but on the major networks. Dr. Watkins, I see you shaking -- you have denounced this so you call on a quote. This is a quote from you and people got fired up on that me on Twitter tonight, they thought I was saying it. You called it a quote, "Ghettofied" hood drama and you called it "Coonery" you refuse to support it, why is that?
BOYCE WATKINS, FOUNDER, FINANCIAL JUNETEENTH.COM: Well, because I think that a lot of black actors and actresses are tired of being put in the entertainment ghetto. The entertainment ghetto is basically the place where you have roles that are specifically designed for black people, that -- where black actors are kind of locked into it. I can tell you this, if, if that family were normal family and didn't have so many dysfunctions, those characters would have been white. You know, let's be clear, I mean, Rupert Murdoch -- from Fox News.
LEMON: Did you watch Dynasty? Did you watch Dallas?
TURNER: Oh, I don't know.
LEMON: Did you watch Falcon Crest?
WATKINS: Yes. I did watch Dynasty. I did. I did.
TURNER: Falcon Crest.
LEMON: Did you watch every, every --
TURNER: Exactly.
WATKINS: Absolutely. LEMON: Every soap opera that has come along?
WATKINS: But this is not Dynasty. This is not Falcon Crest. This is --
TURNER: Whoa.
WATKINS: I am gonna snap your bitch ass because I am from the hood.
LEMON: I like this Falcon Crest, it feel so have a fight every episode calling it to end the B-word. There's no difference.
WATKINS: Right, right. But no -- actually, it is very different. Remember, if you are black and if you want to play roles that that involves being a thug, a hood rat, a gangster, a killer or a criminal, there are plenty of roles for you in Hollywood...
LEMON: OK.
WATKINS: And I think that you know is but - you know, you can't compare it to a show like Blackish...
LEMON: OK.
WATKINS: Where black people actually get to be human.
LEMON: All right, alright, alright...
TURNER: But wait a minute, listen...
WATKINS: I think that's the issue.
TURNER: Look at this family that you are talking about it though...
LEMON: They're rich.
TURNER: This family is a very diverse family on television...
LEMON: Wealthy, successful family.
TURNER: Yes, you have Lucious who came from the hood...
WATKINS: But they all have some sort of dysfunction.
TURNER: And cookie who came from the hood, but they have a son who is Ivy League educated. Yes, he has been diagnosed bipolar. They have a son who is gay and who is coming out but the most talented one in that family. They have a son who is a rapper...
LEMON: Yeah.
TURNER: I think that is a very diverse family. And if you are calling it Coonery, then you might be calling the Turner family a Coonery, because I have a lot of these folks in my family.
WATKINS: I think, I think, I think you need to study...
LEMON: OK.
WATKINS: But I think you need to study...
LEMON: I -- Chris --
WATKINS: The history of --
(CROSSTALK)
WATKINS: Black exploitation television. That's what you need to study.
LEMON: OK. I don't think it's blacks. So I think it is far from by (ph). I think that's a little bit too, you are taking it a bit too far, but quick, because not any -- not one television show is going to mirror...
TURNER: Many.
LEMON: An entire culture -- can make up for an entire culture. This is about a family who is in a music empire, and that is what it is about. It's not about -- it's not the Cosby show, it's not about the doctor, it's not about a lawyer, this is about that. But Chris, I would say to Boyce Watkins that, black actors are probably happy to have a job in Hollywood.
CHRIS WITHERSPOON, ENTERTAINMENT EDITOR, THE GRIO.COM: Totally. I think that also that this show is kind of setting precedence in Hollywood, it would really has as broken a glass ceiling in Hollywood if you will. I think this gonna open doors for other actors, other empires to come along in the shows. I mean, there are other shows out here to watch. You have Scandal, you have Viola Davis' show, you have Blackish, you have shows on BT, on own (ph). But I think that this show right here is a cultural phenomenon. It's bringing people black, white, Latino, everyone's gonna come in to the TV set for the first time in watching the show. They're taking it to social media, they're sharing it, and having a discussion about these characters, like Nischelle said these characters are rich and deep. They are Ivy League educated. They are like multi-million dollar family there. They are trading, their company, and it's -- it's opening door and I think...
LEMON: OK.
WITHERSPOON: It shedding the light on the diversity of the black families.
TURNER: That's what --
LEMON: I wanted to. I want to spend more time...
TURNER: That's a very rude statement.
LEMON: Yeah.
WITHERSPOON: Yeah.
LEMON: I want to spend more time with you guys, been sorry because of the -- news, the amount of news we had -- we will talk -- Nischelle, I love the show.
TURNER: And Dr. Watkins...
WITHERSPOON: I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.
TURNER: much respect for you.
LEMON: Yes.
TURNER: Much respect to you.
WITHERSPOON: You guys were one truly (ph) -- yeah.
LEMON: Dr. Watkins, thank you for coming on. We can continue to have this conversation. Respectfully, I hope and we have you all back on. Thank you very much. When we come right back, get ready to show some respect. The one and only Queen of Soul Aretha Franklin, joins me.
[22:34:24]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Oh.
ARETHA FRANKLIN, SINGER: What you want? Baby, I got it -- this so early. What you need?
LEMON: Oh.
FRANKLIN: You know I got it.
LEMON: I'm going to heaven right now.
(LAUGHTER)
FRANKLIN: Don't do that. Don't do that.
LEMON: That is an anthem for generations of women for African- Americans, for anybody who really who could use a little respect. Queen of Soul Aretha Franklin is here, and I can't even get my words out. Here --
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: Thank you for coming in.
FRANKLIN: Thank you for having me.
LEMON: You have been performing now for decades. What do you think? Why is your music stand the test of time?
FRANKLIN: I don't know. Well, I see, I will go back to the studio when we used to record and we cut something, and everybody, really, really loved and we were up, and yeah, yeah, yeah. Jerry Wexler would say, we are all tired right now, let's wait until tomorrow. And we are all well rested and let's see if it is still standing up. LEMON: And what happened?
FRANKLIN: It is still standing up...
LEMON: It's still standing up.
FRANKLIN: 50 years later.
LEMON: You were just singing as we were coming in. How do you -- some people lose their voice, you still have it.
FRANKLIN: Thank you.
LEMON: You still have it.
FRANKLIN: Thank you. I take care of it, it takes care of me.
LEMON: That's a blessing. Can we talk issues now? Because you are here on CNN, you are an avid CNN watcher.
FRANKLIN: Yes I am.
LEMON: You pay attention to the issue.
FRANKLIN: I do.
LEMON: And what is going on in the news now. Do you feel -- when you look at what is happening in Ferguson, what happened with police officer, whatever. Do you think were your songs were the anthem to civil rights or the civil rights movement? So many songs you play.
FRANKLIN: Well on Respect was...
LEMON: Yeah.
FRANKLIN: A mantra before to the civil rights movement. I t was.
LEMON: Do you feel what moving forward or fast enough?
[22:39:58] FRANKLIN: I think that we have come a very, very long way, we have come to the forefront in many fields of course, entertainment, sports and so on, but we still have a long way to go.
LEMOM: I have earlier the week is --
FRANKLIN: But we have made great strides.
LEMON: You think so?
FRANKLIN: Yes.
LEMON: Because you were there, you saw it. You were on the front lines?
FRANKLIN: No I was not on the front lines...
LEMON: Do you think --
FRANKLIN: But I was with Dr. King from -- the church service to church service. I went on a mini tour with him when he first started.
LEMON: That was the line.
FRANKLIN: Yeah.
LEMON: You really had back to line.
FRANKLIN: Well, I was behind Dr. King and I was a very young girl.
LEMON: So, can we talk about this N-word, because I had a very spirited conversation earlier. And It was always about the N-word and you know Kanye west, and Jay-Z said they -- you know, taking the power back, Oprah hates the word, I think we should be careful about how we use it. What do you think about using it especially in the song?
FRANKLIN: I don't use it in song. But it is used affectionately sometimes among and between black folks, and any time it is used, I think from the opposite point of view or another culture, and you are using the N-word it is more insulting.
LEMON: Do you think -- and it usually, you don't think it should be abolished?
FRANKLIN: Um -- I don't know that it will be, whether it should be is a question for thought.
LEMON: Yeah.
FRANKLIN: Yeah.
LEMON: And you think it is generational, too?
FRANKLIN: But as I said, it is sometimes used affectionately at least it should be. We have curbed it a lot though. We have curbed it a lot.
LEMON: Yeah. And I guess as these young people doing their things. What is it like raising four sons in America?
FRANKLIN: Well, for a while --
LEMON: Four black, four black sons?
FRANKLIN: Up to a -- up to certain point, it was fairly easy. Using parental techniques, you know. My children grew up pretty much the same way I did. Today, it is different. You know, it is different. And most mothers in the African-American community of course are very concerned about their children, and talking to them about how to conduct themselves if they are stopped for any reason.
LEMON: Why do you say it is very different?
FRANKLIN: It is very different, because what is happening now was not happening back in the day. You know, you didn't have the Fergusons, well, you did, but it was another form of that. But I think Selma plays a significant part coming out today and when it coming out when it did now. The youth today, need to see and should know more about the African-American history and where we have come from, talk about where we need to go and so on, the importance of the vote and so on.
LEMON: I was surprised after seeing Selma that there are kids that came up to me after seeing it and they were saying, we didn't know about this.
FRANKLIN: They really don't.
(CROSSTALK)
FRANKLIN: The younger generation, really does not know, really what all happened back in the day.
LEMON: What is up with that?
FRANKLIN: You tell me.
LEMON: I don't know. We -- that was the first thing that we were taught about school. It was African-American history, but it was part of American history. And maybe because --
FRANKLIN: And yes it is, part of American history.
LEMON: Because we grew up in that side (ph).
FRANKLIN: That is right. That's right.
LEMON: Yeah.
FRANKLIN: And we are African-Americans, correct.
LEMON: Do you think that we need another Dr. King type figure now?
FRANKLIN: I think that we need someone -- with a voice who can represent the community. I don't know that we'll have another Dr. King. I think that Dr. King probably was an original and a one of a kind, but that is not to say that there are not other great men who couldn't speak for the community and voice our concerns.
LEMON: Do you see anyone out there right now on your radar or anyone who's out there that is --
FRANKLIN: Don Lemon.
(LAUGHTER)
FRANKLIN: Don Lemon.
(LAUGHTER)
FRANKLIN: No. OK.
LEMON: I love that you are so informed. FRANKLIN: Well, I try to be.
(LAUGHTER)
FRANKLIN: I'll try to be.
LEMON: I sit here and sometimes it end and you know, when you are in the music industry sometimes, or an actor sometimes thaw you are so into it that nothing else exist, But you are well inform and avid CNN watcher, so I appreciate that.
FRANKLIN: I try to be.
LEMON: So now, we're gonna talk about this new album...
FRANKLIN: OK.
LEMON: That everybody is going to buy.
FRANKLIN: OK.
LEMON: But we are going to do that right after the break.
FRANKLIN: OK.
My darling, believe me.
CROWD: Believe me.
FRANKLIN: For me there is no one but you.
[22:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
FRANKLIN: My darling, believe me.
CROWD: Believe me.
FRANKLIN: And you are singing in.
For me there is no one but you.
LEMON: Nobody wants to hear me sing.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: There are --
FRANKLIN: I do keep singing. Keep singing.
(LAUGHTER) LEMON: They want to hear it.
FRANKLIN: I need a replacement sometime.
LEMON: I'm back now with the one and --
FRANKLIN: Every now and then I need somebody to fill in.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: They'll be highly disappointed.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: The one and only, Aretha Franklin.
FRANKLIN: Well, you could talk a while and interview awhile and sing a little bit...
LEMON: Do a little humming.
FRANKLIN: Yeah.
LEMON: I was trying to think of my favorite, so many. I'm trying to think of my favorite song, it's not -- well, all of them are. I loved Spanish Harlem, because I lived Harlem.
FRANKLIN: OK.
LEMON: But oh. He's the kind of guy that would say...
FRANKLIN: Day Dreaming.
LEMON: Day dreaming let's get away.
FRANKLIN: Day Dreaming. Day Dreaming.
LEMON: You are not going to singing it for me? All right. Let's talk about your new album.
FRANKLIN: OK.
LEMON: It gives you a little respect here...
FRANKLIN: OK.
LEMON: Because you get the diva's respect. Aretha Franklin sings the great diva classics. Why did you do it? Why you're doing it?
FRANKLIN: Why not do it? We're on that concept came to me from Mr. Davis and the lists of songs...
LEMON: Clive Davis.
FRANKLIN: Clive Davis, yes, who was at -- while he was D.C. (ph) creative officer there, the chief creative officer.
LEMON: Of RCA.
[22:50:00] FRANKLIN: Yes, of RCA Records. He used to be (inaudible) that's RCA now. But anyway, he bought the concept, the songs, the lists, I looked at it -- looked at it and I love the songs, because many of them I had already bought. I already bought these records, so I've said, yeah. I love these.
LEMON: Really? You mean, you bought the records or you bought the --
FRANKLIN: No, I bought the records...
LEMON: You bought the rest (ph)
FRANKLIN: Some of them.
LEMON: Yeah.
FRANKLIN: Yeah. I had bought some of them. Berry Gordy. I told Berry when I saw him, Berry, you have no idea how much money you owe me for all of the Motown records I have bought darling, you owe me money.
(LAUGHTER)
FRANKLIN: He cracked up.
LEMON: Meaning? What do you mean?
FRANKLIN: He did not give me money or cash, but check, but he cracked up.
LEMON: What is your definition of the diva?
FRANKLIN: My definition of the diva is certainly more than a singer or aspirant to sing, or somebody who is supposed to be fabulous and can flaunt it and strut it, you know.
LEMON: And the definition of the diva is somebody who can carries your purse. Whoever people are gonna wonder why you were leaning over, you are closing your purse right?
FRANKLIN: Yeah.
LEMON: Her purse is still -- put your purse up here. She's like -- you said you like (inaudible). You like to hang on to your bag.
FRANKLIN: And bag (inaudible) said, keep the bag baby. Get my bag. Let me have the bag and she is going on stage, get the purse darling.
LEMON: It's beautiful.
FRANKLIN: She used to.
LEMON: It is a fancy designer bag. We won't --
FRANKLIN: Givenchy.
LEMON: Givenchy?
FRANKLIN: Yeah.
LEMON: You did it. FRANKLIN: That's the real thing. But my definition of the diva in addition to that would be singers who gave back to the community, who tied to their churches, who are supportive in any way they can be outside of the theatrics.
LEMON: Don't you -- outside of the theatrics. I am glad you said that. Don't you have to have some talent though to be a real true diva?
FRANKLIN: I think so. Yeah, I think so.
LEMON: I hear a lot of young people.
FRANKLIN: A gift?
LEMON: A gift.
FRANKLIN: Talent.
LEMON: A gift or talent...
FRANKLIN: Yes.
LEMON: Because you have a gift.
FRANKLIN: Thank you.
LEMON: Whitney had a gift.
FRANKLIN: Thank you.
LEMON: Right? Even I was listening to you.
FRANKLIN: Yes.
LEMON: Because I listened to your radio station on Pandora or night heart (ph) radio. It's just that to your radio station.
FRANKLIN: I just don't know about Pandora.
LEMON: Yeah. So have a radio station but they play other people with this sort of you genre, even Janis Joplin had a gift like people who can actually sing. I hear so many people now who can't really sing they use AutoTune, right?
FRANKLIN: OK.
LEMON: What do you think of that?
FRANKLIN: I don't know who is using the AutoTune, but --
LEMON: You never had to use AutoTune.
FRANKLIN: I didn't even know what AutoTune was, until you told me. But I think that, yes, diva, having are the grand air, you know, a lot of air goes along with an attitude. LEMON: The album includes hits by Divas like Whitney Houston, Gladys
Knight, Barbra Streisand and Gloria Gaynor and more, and you also sing Adele, who is a Diva. These are all talented women who had beautiful voice...
FRANKLIN: Yes.
LEMON: And a gift.
FRANKLIN: Yes.
LEMON: This is you performing Adele.
FRANKLIN: OK. Rolling In The Deep.
The scars or your love, they leave me breathless. I can't help feeling. We almost have had it all.
CROWD: Gonna wish you never had met he.
FRANKLIN: Rolling in the deep.
CROWD: Tears are gonna fall, rolling into deep.
FRANKLIN: You had my hand inside your heart.
CROWD: Gonna wish you never had met he.
FRANKLIN: And you played it to the beat.
CROWD: Tears are gonna fall, rolling into deep.]
(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: You still got it, girl.
FRANKLIN: You think?
LEMON: You still got it. That was at the Ed Sullivan Theater, David Letterman.
FRANKLIN: Yes.
LEMON: You were 17 years old. You were supposed to perform at that every theater and it never happened. What Happened?
FRANKLIN: That is true. When I first came to New York, I was taking classes in the CBS building, best hamburgers in the world downstairs. And a lot going on upstairs, there was a class in every wing, every room, pardon me, Flamenco, the Platters, myself, just different people in every room. But, I got to think about the burger, and I forgot. What about?
LEMON: What about singing in Ed Sullivan --
FRANKLIN: Oh, yeah, right. OK
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: I know you can go get one of those out there.
FRANKLIN: So, OK. I went over to get with Charlie Atkins, who is my choreographer at the time and Charlie and I had prepared Sky Lark. I went on stage, I rehearsed it and I brought two or three gown, and one of them was kind of low cut, heard a voiceover saying, "Did she bring any other gowns? Her gowns was little too low." Certainly did, I had one neck-high that come right up here. We put that on, my agent Joe Marselle at that time from the (inaudible) Alexander Agency, old agency over Madison Avenue years ago, told me as we were going out of the side door, because they had spoken to him while I was getting dressed, that I had been bumped, that they had overbooked the show. And I went what? Who overbooked? Who said it?
(LAUGHTER)
[22:55:16] FRANKLIN: Oh, no. Anyway, I was crying. I was about 16 or 17 and we went out the side door crying...
LEMON: You're 17 --
FRANKLIN: Down -- yeah, down the side street. Well I said well, he will call me before I call him, and I really meant that, again.
LEMON: Did he ever call?
FRANKLIN: No, he didn't.
LEMON: He didn't.
FRANKLIN: No.
LEMON: And you didn't need him to call, did you?
FRANKLIN: No.
LEMON: Because here we are. I'm not star struck by anybody.
FRANKLIN: OK.
LEMON: But you.
FRANKLIN: Ah. No, thank you.
LEMON: I love you so much. I was so excited about coming here. I was listening to you all day. My mom is so excited and I am excited about your birthday party.
FRANKLIN: All right. Oh yeah. It's going to be a hot party.
LEMON: Thank you so much.
FRANKLIN: Thank you.
LEMON: Mwah. LEMON: Thanks.
LEMON: Thank you. We will be right back.
(LAUGHTER)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:59:53] LEMON: All right, March Madness kicks off tomorrow and my picks are in. They're taking on the bunch of people who are gonna lose to me. Jake Tapper, Wolf Blitzer and John Berman, and you can join us on CNN.com/Brackets.
Here's my final four, right here. I like Kentucky to beat Gonzaga in the final four, in the final, cats over dogs. To play against us or to follow along, you can find our group, by using #cnnbracket -- #cnnbracket.
And to see my incredibly scientific approach to filling out my bracket, visit our show's website, cnn.com/cnntonight. Good luck.
That's it for us tonight. I'm Don Lemon. Thanks for watching. See you back here tomorrow night. AC360 starts right now.
