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Don Lemon Tonight

"The New York Times": One Pilot Locked Out Of Cockpit; Bergdahl: Kept In Constant Isolation For Five Years; German Town Mourns 16 Students. Aired 11:00-12p ET

Aired March 25, 2015 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:05] DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Plus -- plus, Sergeant Bowe Bergdahl charged with desertion, and we talk to the sergeant who served with him in Afghanistan and says President Barack Obama should not have traded five Taliban prisoners to free Bowe Bergdahl.

We got a lot to get to tonight, but I want to begin with our breaking news on Flight 9525, a shocking report that one of the pilots on board was locked out of the cockpit when the plane crashed.

That is according again to "The New York Times." The paper is reporting that a senior military official cited evidence from the cockpit voice recorder, perhaps the most chilling detail.

The investigators said you can hear that pilot trying to smash down the door. Lufthansa has released a statement saying they will not participate in speculation, but they will follow up. We will have much more to come with our aviation experts on this breaking news story.

But we have breaking news tonight on this, Bowe Bergdahl describing his captivity and the hellish conditions he was kept in for five years. He tells his story in a letter released by his attorney. This comes as the U.S. military charges Bergdahl with desertion and misbehavior before the enemy.

CNN Pentagon correspondent, Barbara Starr, is here with me with the very latest on this. Barbara, it was an interesting read. We heard from Bowe Bergdahl today for the first time. Tell us more about what he said.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, this, Don, good evening came along with a letter from his civilian defense attorney, a lengthy document where the attorney tries to make the case that Bergdahl is already not guilty of the charges of which he -- the army has presented him with.

And this is also followed up by several pages from Bowe Bergdahl, himself, detailing brutality, torture, terrible conditions in which he was held by the Taliban for five years.

Let me just go through a couple of pieces of this with you. He says, quote, "I was kept in constant isolation for the entire five years with little understanding of time. I was told I was going to be executed." He was chained to a bed, spread-eagle and blindfolded he says. He had at one point 8 to 12 open wounds on his wrist from the hand shackles. He was beaten with a copper cable, but he also goes on the say that, you know, at some points his health did improve, and that he tried to escape at least a dozen times.

One of those times he was away for nine days before he was caught. He was out in essentially the woods. He didn't know where he was, had no food, water or supplies, and basically he says he was so dehydrated and his condition was so poor that time, that basically his body just stopped on him, and the Taliban found him.

All of this is something that certainly the defense would make a case he has paid a terrible price. People have a good deal of compassion for what he went through, but in the United States military, if in fact he is found to have left his post, and gone and deserted. If he is found guilty of desertion, that is a very serious charge -- Don.

LEMON: One charge is misbehavior before the enemy. Explain that to us, Barbara.

STARR: Well, that is a big catch-all, and perhaps even more serious. That charge in the uniform code of military justice begins with the language "shamelessly leaving your post" and in fact, the army today said that if he was convicted of that charge, he could face life in prison, life in the detention.

So a lot of this is also raising the question, could there be a plea bargain? Could they work behind the scenes to work something out where he may serve some detention? He may not serve years and years if he is paid a high enough price.

But one of the questions is, you know, he has promoted while in captivity. He has hundreds of thousands of dollars in backpay, not something the army is likely to let him keep if he is found guilty of any of these charges or faces the discipline in this trade off right now?

What is the evidence? Can they make the charges? Do they have enough to go to the full blown trial or will there be a decision somewhere along the way to essentially try to come to the plea bargain to deal this out, and not have to go through that lengthy proceeding?

LEMON: That's the question. Do you get the sense that they don't want this to go to court-martial or do they?

STARR: Well, you know, that's a really interesting question. The general today who sent it on into this next step, he could have made a decision, he could have said, I'll have this, you know, he could have set out the discipline for Bergdahl and been done with it.

But by all accounts, by sending it to the next step with the army saying that we want to put it before a panel, and we want them to decide and hear the evidence. So they are now going to go to an Article 32, which is essentially grand jury proceeding. Present all the evidence again and cross-examine witnesses. [23:35:07] If it goes all that way, but at any point, it could be the case that they might come to some sort of agreement that the defense counsel might say, what can we do here? You know, can we come to the plea agreement with you and stop this?

This would be, if it goes to trial, it will get headlines. This is a situation where there is a lot of emotion -- Don.

LEMON: Barbara Starr at the Pentagon, Barbara, thank you very much. We go to the ground now for more information from CNN's Martin Savidge in San Antonio with more -- Martin.

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Don. According to military officials here in San Antonio, there has been no change in the freedom status, I guess, you could put it up Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl. In other words, he is not being held in captivity, and his movements are not being restrained in any way.

Remember, he came down here to San Antonio right after he was freed from captivity, because, well, for two reasons, one, the medical facilities here, he needed medical care, and then on top of that, they have a program here that specializes in reintegrating former prisoners of war back into life, I guess, is the best way to describe it.

Once he completed that program, he was given a desk job in the army actually working in the building directly behind us at Fort Sam Houston, and that has pretty much been his life. The only thing that is different for him is that whenever he leaves the post, he is escorted by two soldiers, and that is to be for his own safety.

As to what comes next, that's an Article 32 hearing. That will also take place here at Fort Sam Houston, and it will be to determine if there is sufficient evidence to warrant going forward with the next step, which would be a court-martial.

And then lastly is the question that many people often asked about us and that is, has Sergeant Bowe Bergdahl even been reunited with his parents since he was freed from captivity. The military will only say that there has been communication, but as far as we know, there has never been any face-to-face meeting -- Don.

LEMON: Martin Savidge, thank you very much for that. I want to bring in now former Army Sergeant Josh Korder, he served with Bowe Bergdahl in Afghanistan, and he joins us via Skype, and also with us is Sondra Andrews. Her son, Darryn, was killed while searching for Bowe Bergdahl.

Good evening to both of you. We're so happy that you could join us this evening to speak about this. Sondra, I want to go to you first. I understand that you and your husband spoke to Darren after Bergdahl disappeared, what did Darren tell you?

SONDRA ANDREWS, SON DARRYN WAS KILLED LOOKING FOR BOWE BERGDAHL: He told us that one of the guys had walked off of post and that they were having to spend 24/7 looking for him and he said --

LEMON: Continue.

ANDREWS: And he just said that he walked off. He said that he left all of his things in a little stack on his bunk and left.

LEMON: Did they have any idea at the time why?

ANDREWS: No, other than the fact that he had told not Darryn, but Darryn said he had talked about how unhappy he was over there.

LEMON: Tell me what happened to Darryn, Sondra?

ANDREWS: Well, Darryn was on a mission, and they were in a village and were moving out of that village, and he was the first platoon. His front vehicle hit an IED, and it was in a hole, and he and the men were out getting the soldiers out of the vehicle, and then trying to evaluate how to get their truck out of the hole.

As they were standing there, he turned and when he turned, he got a glint, and he yelled, "RPG" and got to all of the guys and the first sergeant was standing there with him and his radio man was standing there with him, and he pushed both of them down and fell on them, and he was had a direct hit when he fell down on top of his soldiers.

LEMON: My goodness. Josh, you served with Bergdahl, and you also searched for him. Was there ever any question in your mind as to what happened?

JOSH KORDER, SERVED WITH BOWE BERGDAHL IN AFGHANISTAN: No, as Mrs. Andrews said, we basically found all of his stuff. And when you leave all of your things like that behind, your weapon and your body armor, it is pretty clear what your intentions are, and I am pretty sure that he did not want to come back, and he left on his own fruition.

LEMON: I want to play for you, Josh, some of what Bergdahl's attorney told my colleague, Anderson Cooper. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EUGENE FIDELL, BOWE BERGDAHL'S ATTORNEY: I think that once people have a better sense of Bowe Bergdahl, the human being, what he went through, what his motivations were, I think that, you know, many of those people may find themselves ruing some of the dreadful things they have been saying.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Josh, what do you think that he means when he says his motivations?

[23:10:03] KORDER: Well, I mean, only Bergdahl, at this point knows -- about Bergdahl and why he left, and I saw something earlier where the lawyer even refused to answer the question about why he left, so I can't imagine that there is some significant reason that is going to be just falling out of the sky that is going to be justifying what he did.

LEMON: Sondra, what's your response? What do you think he means by his motivations?

ANDREWS: I'm not sure. I agree. I'm not sure what his motivation would be. All I know is that he put a whole group, several brigades there in jeopardy with his actions. Whatever his motivation was, he did not consider his fellow soldiers in any sense.

LEMON: In a written statement though, Bergdahl's attorney, he said that there is no evidence that any soldier died searching for him, and that is a quote, what is your reaction to that, Sondra?

ANDREWS: Well, I definitely say he is wrong. I mean, my son was on the mission, and they were looking for him, and he was can killed. How much more evidence do we need? Plus the other five young men, I mean, it happened.

LEMON: Let's talk about what he says when he talks about his time in captivity, and this is Bowe Bergdahl's statement, he says, " I was kept in constant isolation during the entire five years with little or no understanding of time, through periods of constant darkness, periods of constant light, and periods of completely random flickering of light.

And absolutely no understanding of anything that was happening beyond the door I was held behind. I was constantly shown Taliban videos, told I was going to be executed. Told I was never going back, and told I would be leaving the next day, and the next day and told I would be there for 30 years.

Told I was going to die there, told to kill myself, and told I would have my ears and nose cut off, as well as other parts of my body." Five years in captivity, Josh, was that punishment enough five years in captivity by the Taliban?

KORDER: Honestly, I read that statement and I don't feel that any of the evidence that I've seen of him in captivity reflects what he was saying. I mean, yes, the people who captured him might have been saying all kinds of things to him. But there is no evidence on his body, and they haven't released any photos of him that looked any kind, like he was in bad health at all.

I mean, once when he was released, he was able to walk without limping to the helicopter without assistance and there were no marks on his face like no evidence of ill effects on him whatsoever.

LEMON: Sondra, do you agree?

ANDREWS: I totally agree. He does not look anything like a captive.

LEMON: Your son was awarded the Silver Star for his heroic actions, which you spoke about throwing himself on top of his comrades. When you saw the president in the Rose Garden and heard Susan Rice talking about Bergdahl, what did you think?

ANDREWS: I was most upset. I could not believe that he was calling that young man a hero when my son along with thousands of other young men had been hero and had given their lives protecting our country and fighting for our rights and our freedom and our flag. None of us received an invitation to the White House.

LEMON: Would you like to have one?

ANDREWS: At that time, perhaps, it would have -- you know, it would have been a nice gesture in acknowledging that he respected our sons and daughters and had some feelings for us whereas I received a letter that had his stamped name on it.

CAVUTO: What do you say to the president?

ANDREWS: I think that he has let us down. I think he has let the families down of the military. I think he has let down everyone because he's -- he's breached the integrity of our country.

LEMON: Sondra Andrews, thank you, and thank you for your son's service. Josh Korder, thank you, and thank you for your service as well.

ANDREWS: Thank you for having us.

LEMON: We will be back with much more on the Bowe Bergdahl controversy, and our breaking news tonight on Flight 9525, reports that one of the pilots was locked out of the cockpit before the plane crash. We will be right back.

[23:15:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:18:45]

LEMON: Just 10 months ago, President Barack Obama hailed the safe return of Army Sergeant Bowe Bergdahl in the Rose Garden. Well, today, Bergdahl was charged by the military with desertion and misbehavior before the enemy.

Joining me now is Michael Waltz, senior national security fellow with the New America Foundation and the author of "Warrior Diplomat, A Green Beret's Battle from Washington to Afghanistan, and Lt. Col. Geoffrey Corn, retired U.S. Army, Judge Advocate attorney, and currently a professor at South Texas College of Law.

Good evening to both of you, Gentlemen. Michael, I'm going to start with you. You were in command of the U.S. Army Special Forces company in Afghanistan responsible for searching for Bowe Bergdahl. How do you feel about the charges against him?

MICHAEL WALTZ, NEW AMERICA FOUNDATION: Well, I think, you know, I commend the army for stepping forward and taking this move to send the issue to trial, to an Article 32 hearing and then at trial, as you mentioned, I was in the command of Special Forces units looking for Sgt. Bergdahl at the time he disappeared.

We knew at the time that he had walked off of his base, that he had essentially deserted his post. The Taliban also knew that we were throwing out all of the stops to look for him, and we are actively baiting us into the ambushes.

Baiting us into, in one case, a house rigged with explosives, and there is no doubt in my mind that soldiers died looking for him, and I'm pleased to see Sergeant Bergdahl be held accountable for his actions.

[23:20:10] LEMON: Yes, his attorney says there is no evidence that anyone died, but you are saying you have no doubt that people did die looking for him.

WALTZ: Well, look, here is the case, Don, everyone in Eastern Afghanistan, every military member for a period of time in 2009 was told to stop what they were doing, a direct order, and told to shift every asset, predator drones, helicopters, what have you to look for Sergeant Bergdahl, and then died on those missions.

As Ms. Andrews just discussed in your previous segment so there is accountability to Sgt. Bergdahl. There is justice for those families, and then, of course, there is how his return was politicized coming back.

And then frankly, there is the wisdom of the trade and trading five of the most senior Taliban officials in Guantanamo Bay for what effectively the army is saying now as a deserter.

LEMON: Understood. So Colonel, he won't get the death penalty, the maximum is a life in prison, do you think he is going an offer to plea bargain?

LT. COL. GEOFFREY CORN, U.S. ARMY (RETIRED): Well, look, I think a lot of is speculation and it is really premature at this point. There is certainly a lot of emotion involved in this case, and soldiers like your guests, and unfortunately soldiers who lost their lives in Afghanistan and their families are justifiably concerned about how this has been handled.

But we have to step back for a minute, and remember a couple of things, this is a criminal process. Sgt. Bergdahl is still presumed innocent, and the government, the prosecution is going to have to present evidence that it is admissible under the rules of evidence in court to prove the elements of these two offenses that it has alleged.

I think the fact that the officer who preferred these charges, and so everybody knows what this means, this doesn't mean that it is going to trial. This is just a charge. This is the initiation of the process, and we have to go through a preliminary hearing called an Article 32 hearing.

And then all of that evidence will be presented to the commanding general who will at that point decide whether or not he believes this case should go to court-martial which is the criminal trial.

But the fact that the commander who selected the charge on the advice of his military attorney after a very deliberate, careful and methodical investigation, not only charged him with desertion, but also with misbehavior before the enemy. I think signals that they believe the evidence indicates this is a very serious offense, and whether or not there will be a plea bargain will depend on a lot of factors, one of which will be what happens at the Article 32 hearing, and how the evidence starts to play out.

LEMON: I want to ask Michael this, Bergdahl says that during his five years in captivity, Michael, that he tried to escape the Taliban approximately 12 times, do you think the harsh treatment that he received there, will that help his sentence?

WALTZ: Well, you know, I think that is relevant if he is indeed prosecuted and we are looking at what punishment he should receive, and I wouldn't be surprised then if his attorney says look, you know, due to this punishment, you know, he has now received time served.

You know, that said, I think we need to the take into account that folks, you know, I am confident died -- you know, soldiers like Lieutenant Andrews died looking for him.

You know, they don't get the opportunity to come home, and he needs to be held accountable for the results of his actions, and then secondly, I just want to add to your previous, to your other guest's point in the sense that, yes, we absolutely should have due process, and the army should go through that process.

But when the president essentially takes a victory lap in the Rose Garden, and the national security adviser goes on national television and says he served with honor and distinction, it certainly kind of threw doubt out there in my mind and in many others that this process would move forward in a fair and balanced way.

LEMON: Lt. Col. Geoffrey Cord -- go ahead.

CORN: I think that what the army has done here should dispel any suspicion that there is any type of improper influence coming from high levels. This is a credible investigation, and if there is evidence that can establish that his misbehavior or desertion led to the death of fellow soldiers or service members.

Then that is a legitimate aggravating factor to consider at the court- martial, but it has to be proven. And we may feel that we may believe that, but ultimately he is going to be accountable in a court of law, and it is going to be evidence that is going to dictate what the outcome is going to be as it should be.

LEMON: Lt. Col. Corn and again, Michael Waltz, thanks to both of you. When we come right back, the latest on Flight 9525, and those reports that one of the pilots was locked out of the cockpit before the crash, our aviation experts are going to weigh in.

[23:25:05]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:29:02] LEMON: We are back now with our breaking news on Flight 9525, our chilling news tonight on that flight, "The New York Times" is reporting that one of the pilots was locked out of the cockpit and tried to smash down the door.

CNN's Tom Foreman is with the former NTSB managing director, Tom Goelz to explain how pilots get in and out of the cockpit.

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Don, we are here with Peter Goelz, the former NTSB investigator. And Peter, we'll be looking at a panel that would be found in a plane like this. Tell me about what this switch is all about.

PETER GOELZ, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: This is the device that controls access to the cockpit door. In the normal position, you can access the door through a code from the outside. You can get in and out, if you have the correct code to get in.

FOREMAN: So it is locked, but you can get in with the code.

GOELZ: When it is flipped to the locked position here, you cannot get in. There is no way to get -- enter the cockpit.

FOREMAN: That's throw a bolt in the door.

[23:30:05] GOELZ: This light is ignited to say that it's locked and the crew knows that they are safe in the cockpit, but the people outside cannot get through.

FOREMAN: And we don't have an idea right now of what the normal procedure would be in this plane whether it would be left in unlocked when somebody leaves the cockpit or what?

GOELZ: This was an issue that was greatly debated after 9/11, Tom, in which they said, you know, how do we protect the crew and the aircraft from, you know, preventing 9/11 from being replicated? And there were discussions done about, well, maybe we should have a key or a code or an emergency code that you randomly give to one of the cabin crew members --

FOREMAN: So somebody could get in. Why didn't they do that?

GOELZ: Well, because they felt as though there was no way to keep that that kind of procedure could be kept secret.

FOREMAN: And one more question about all of this, when you look at all the wreckage out here that they will be sorting through, when you look at pieces of wheels, and pieces of wings, will they be able to in all of this find more information about what that switch was doing, the position the door was in, whether it was locked, is that possible?

GOELZ: Well, I mean, the most important, you know, piece of equipment they need to find is the data recorder, but you could find the remnants of the cockpit door with the lock thrown and that would indicate that it was locked permanently that you couldn't enter. There could be some evidence that would be discovered. FOREMAN: And last question about that, you mentioned the data recorder or the voice recorder, will the data recorder tell you whether or not that switch was thrown?

GOELZ: Well, that is a great question and I got to say given the age of this aircraft, and that it was likely retrofitted after 9/11, 2001, you know, the flight data recorder may not record this action, and they don't record everything. In the newer planes, I am sure they do, but I don't know it was retrofitted to record this.

FOREMAN: So much more that has to be found out.

GOELZ: We just don't know yet. We will have to ask that question tomorrow.

FOREMAN: Peter Goelz, thanks so much -- Don.

LEMON: Thank you very much, Gentlemen. Let's bring in our experts. Now joining me on the phone is international airline pilot, Karlene Petitt and also retired American Airlines pilot, Jim Tilmon, forensic audio expert, Paul Ginsburg and David Soucie, CNN safety analyst and author of "Malaysia Airlines Flight 370."

You heard Peter Goelz there talking about what happens inside the cockpit. What is your assess of his --

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: I think he's told what he can about it for sure, but there is a little definition I'd like to make when we say in the locked position. That switch doesn't go locked position, forward position. It is a control switch that is centered position. You are telling it to lock, and then returns back.

So it is always in the center position, and spring action, so it is pushed down to have a lock so it is not bumped lock, and then you have to push it off to turn it off of lock so it is a fail-safe mechanism.

LEMON: OK, let's dig into this reporting, and specifically I want to talk to Karlene about something, because "The New York Times" says a senior military officials involved in the investigation of this Flight 9525 described it as a very smooth, very cool conversation between the pilots during the early part of the flight from Barcelona to Dusseldorf.

And then it indicated that one of the pilots left the cockpit, and then could not re-enter, and here's how the report reads. "The guy outside is knocking lightly on the door and there is no answer, the investigator said, and then he hits that door stronger and no answer. There is never an answer."

He said you can hear he is trying to smash the door down. Karlene, as I understand you have been speaking to one of your sources, a pilot at Lufthansa, and there is no rule for having two people in the cockpit, is that correct?

KARLENE PETITT, INTERNATIONAL AIRLINE PILOT (via telephone): That's correct. I was under the impression that (inaudible), but he wrote to me and said that their pilots often go to the bathroom. They are asking flight attendants to take their place.

He said, and I quote, "I have never heard that in training or briefing or anywhere that we should not leave the pilot alone in the cockpit. He says that our focus has always been not letting the wrong people in.

He said he wanted to make that clear. He wants to remain anonymous, but you know, if Lufthansa is doing it, and these are Lufthansa pilots, and GW is an affiliate company, I would suspect that the rules are probably the same.

Thus the simple knock to let me back in, you know, would make sense, and then the panic would fall in because he was not let back in.

LEMON: And we are working with Lufthansa to get clarification for that. Thank you, Karlene, for that information. If that is indeed so, Jim Tilman, does that surprising to you?

JIM TILMON, PRESIDENT, THE TILMON GROUP: Yes, it is. That is very surprising to me because that's one of the things that prevents a situation from coming up like we are talking about here with a pilot that's by himself in the cockpit who may have a medical problem or something else.

[23:35:13] The protocol that I learned is not only when a pilot has to go out, not only would you have another person come into the cockpit, but you donned the oxygen mask just to take care of any kind of an individual problem that could happen.

LEMON: So Paul, you are listening to what they are reporting about this audio. They are listening to this recording, and they will know from the recording if there is something nefarious going on?

PAUL GINSBERG, FORENSIC AUDIO EXPERT: I think that certainly they are going to know which of the pilots said that he would leave, and in fact, exited the cockpit, and we will also will be able to hear the breathing hopefully of the remaining pilot to see whether he is in a state of agitation or he's relaxed, and just flying normally.

LEMON: David, I want to talk to you about workers they found the casing of the plane's other black box, the flight data recorder, but that memory chip containing the data of the plane's altitude, the speed, the location, and the condition not inside. Is this uncommon?

SOUCIE: Well, it is uncommon, but what is happening is that the round portion of the control is the part that is not in there. That is where the data is stored, and that is what they don't have, and that is what is missing in it.

LEMON: Everyone standby. When we come right back, much more on the reports that one of the pilots on Flight 9525 locked out of the cockpit before the doomed plane smashed into the Alps. That's what the "New York Times" is reporting this evening. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:40:54]

LEMON: The latest chilling development on Flight 9525, reports of evidence from the plane's voice recorder that one of the pilots was locked out of the cockpit just before the plane crashed.

Back now with pilot, Karlene Petitt on the phone, also Jim Tilmon, Paul Ginsberg and David Soucie, by the way, Paul Ginsberg is a forensic audio expert, and he joins us.

We're happy to have all of you here. David to you first, this new development, did it rip open a potential mystery of this Flight 9525?

SOUCIE: It totally realigned everything that we were thinking and speculating about before, everything that we thought that we knew we didn't and I don't think this is even a scenario that we talked about much before.

We had ruled it out quickly because of the fact that it was such a smooth and controlled descent. You know, if there was ever a pilot suicide before, it is usually a quick abrupt drop.

And some speculation at first on one of them on the Egypt Air, there was movement and then dropped, but nonetheless when you decide to kill yourself as a pilot, you make it abrupt, and so we didn't even think that there was something like this.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Yes, lots more investigation. That a number of outlets are reporting this tonight, and again this is information that is just coming in, sometimes in the beginning, you get information that is not necessarily on target, and so they are not reporting that it is a suicide.

It could be some sort of medical emergency in the cockpit, we just don't know. But I want to ask Jim Tilmon, Jim, we had such passionate debate about cameras in the cockpit when it came to 370, does this renew this debate?

TILMON: Yes, in the minds of a lot of people that's going to make a difference. I don't think it won't make any difference whatsoever in the outcome of the situation. From the pilot's point of view, it is not just the inconvenience or an intrusion, it is just kind unnecessary. There are so many things that are much more important that we need to spend money for.

LEMON: But wouldn't we know, I mean, it give us an idea of exactly what would happened, I mean, don't we want as much information as possible, Jim?

TILMON: Yes, we do, and there are other kinds of ways to get that information. I mean, I'm not interested in knowing whether or not the pilot is picking the nose. And you know, photography is a difficult thing to manage. In a dark cockpit at night, how do you have enough light to really know what you are looking at, we don't have dome lights on at that point in time -- LEMON: This one was daytime, I mean, we have cameras -- I mean, the

technology now is amazing. On this phone, I can shoot basically in the dark on my iPhone, so Karlene, do you agree with Jim Tilmon here?

PETITT: I agree with him, we don't need the cameras in the cockpit. It's not going to do any good. Think about it, Don, if somebody is going to be doing something up there and there is a camera, wouldn't you just put your coat over it or hat over it? It's a good use for a hat.

Yes, there are so many better ways that we could spend that money. Pump it into the pilot training if anything, you know, it's like we could use that money, and millions of dollars, think of how many flights or hours are airborne right now.

And the expense to know what happened. It is not going to prevent anything from happening. If they could prevent something from happening, absolutely, but it cannot prevent anything from happening, so keep it out of the cockpit, and use it with that money better spent for the better security, and the better training, and beef up the system to make it safer.

LEMON: To a layperson, it is why not? They are cameras everywhere, right, when you get on the elevator, everywhere, there are cameras. The pilots are very resistant to this.

SOUCIE: And I like what Jim was saying about the fact that there is -- and Karlene as well that is other places to spend the money, however, that place to spend money would be in the streaming information back to a base rather than waiting to search for these black boxes.

It feels like we are in archaeology trying to find these black boxes when we could be streaming that information and here is where it does prevent accidents because you have to wait a year or two years before you have something conclusive.

That you can then take to the regulatory authority who is going to then spend four or five years make a regulation, maybe be you get lucky and get near this directive to get some immediate action.

[23:45:13] LEMON: The people in the back have potentially hundreds of cameras, and it surprises me every time that we are here and talking about this technology seems archaic. It's time to update, right, Paul? Regardless of the camera situation, it is time to update?

GINSBERG: That's right. And some of the money could spent in hooking up the door latch as well as the door entry switch to the flight data recorder so that we did find out if the pilot in the seat try to prevent something.

SOUCIE: You are chasing the tail here because this is the regulatory tail chasing here because when somebody happens, you respond with a regulatory change or you respond to it with technology. It is not always the best answer because eventually you lose other things, as they are pointing, you spend money on things that are not the most important things for the safety, and you end up, you know, reacting.

LEMON: Standby, when we come right back, a town in mourning, how they are coping with the tragedy of Flight 9525, which took the lives of 16 high school students.

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[23:50:15]

LEMON: One hundred and fifty people lost their lives aboard Flight 9525 and 16 of them high school students. CNN's Frederik Pleitgen has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): Overwhelmed by pain and sorrow, many of those coming to the makeshift memorial at the Joseph Koenig School are in tears mourning the loss of 16 students, and two teachers. Philippa and her mother, Ovicka, were close to the victims.

PHILIPPA, FRIEND OF CRASH VICTIMS: I knew all of them. They were in my grade and two of them, I was very close. And yes, there was one good friend of me, and also we already planned things for the future and what we were going to do when they returned from their trip.

PLEITGEN: The school has now identified the students and the teachers who were killed and publishing this death notice on their web site, and leaving many of this town's young people fighting the agony.

PHILIPPA: It is important to be with them so that everyone can support each other, and say that everything is going to be fine somehow, although, nobody thinks so.

PLEITGEN: People here say they were devastated when they heard that Flight 4U-9525 had crashed and saw the images of the impact site in Southern France. Emergency psychological counselors are here all the time providing help to those who need it.

(on camera): As this town continuous to mourn and grieve, and more and more people come here to the sea of flowers and candles, the people here are also demanding answers. They want to know how it can be that so many of their friends and loved ones were taken from them so violently as they were returning from their school trip.

(voice-over): But for now, the officials are asking for patience as the investigation continues. The city hall has been turned into a crisis center, and the mayor running the operation clearly moved by the events.

MAYOR BODO KLIMPEL, HALTERN, GERMANY: I have been here, and I can talk with the people, and with the parents, and the brothers, and the sisters, and yes, and the only thing I can do is to be here.

PLEITGEN: Back at the Joseph Koenig School, that help is appreciated, but clearly it will take more time for the people of this town to overcome the disaster that has hit their community. Fred Pleitgen, CNN, Haltern, Germany.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: It is a certainly tragedy for the families, will they have any recourse for their loss. Joining me now on the phone is Mark Doudroff, aviation expert and former trial attorney for the FAA and the aviation unit of the Department of Justice. And then back with us also our aviation expert, David Soucie.

Mark to you, from a legal perspective, how does the news from the "New York Times" that one the pilots may have been locked out of the cockpit changed things for the families if this was in fact a deliberate act?

MARK DOUDROFF, FORMER TRIAL ATTORNEY, FAA (via telephone): Thank you, Don. I think that the most important thing to realize is right now, obviously, is the most valuable thing for the families is information. I think from a legal perspective in terms of the families, each passenger there is going to have a right under the ticket, which is really a contract to recover whatever provable damages they are able to the establish.

I am sure that Lufthansa is going to step up and to do the right thing as it relates to the families. In terms of the information that seems to be coming into light or at least as reported by the "Times," given the fact that the magnitude, the scope of damages that can recovered against the airline is controlled by international agreement, it is likely not to have any effect. One would immediately --

LEMON: So it doesn't give them a stronger legal case here?

DOUDROFF: In many respects, in fact, in all respects, they don't need a stronger legal case because the contract is to deliver the passenger from point A to point B safely, that didn't occur. The international agreement is precludes any punitive damages to punish anybody here. So while certainly emotionally, it is a much stronger case in terms of the measure of legal damages, it really won't have an effect.

LEMON: Does this change, David, the relationship between the airlines and the family if they find out something like this happened just because someone was locked out of the cockpit or couldn't get back into the cockpit?

SOUCIE: You know, I don't think it does. I think what we are going is into a criminal realm. I'm not a lawyer. I really can't --

LEMON: The negligence, right?

SOUCIE: Yes, I suppose, but you would have to prove that they knew this was a risk before it happened, and that might be hard to do.

LEMON: Mark, if it is a criminal case, who has the jurisdiction here?

[23:55:09] DOUDROFF: Well, that is interesting question. I think unlike the United States, Don, in many accident investigations conducted in foreign countries, and true with France as well, the criminal authorities are quite active, and in this particular instance, it is the French criminal authorities that would take the lead on it.

We have seen this in other investigations, I think the Concord accident there were criminal proceedings, and it is not at all unusual outside of the United States to have criminal charges brought and a criminal investigation associated with an aviation accident. But that's certain not the case in the United States.

LEMON: Have they handled this well, Lufthansa?

SOUCIE: I think they've handled it exceptionally well.

LEMON: Mark?

DOUDROFF: I absolutely agree with David. I think certainly all the reports I've seen is looked have done an incredible job, and they have used social media is effective way.

LEMON: All right, thank you, Gentlemen. We'll be right back.

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[23:59:47]

LEMON: Back now with our breaking news, a take away from me, David Soucie, our aviation expert, having covered so many accidents with you over the last year, the technology needs to improve.

SOUCIE: That's a big broad scope thing, but it's not only about technology. It's about shifting our mindset from diagnosis looking back at what happened and looking at prognosis and technology can help us do that.

LEMON: Thank you, David Soucie, and thank you so much for joining us this past two hours. Our live coverage continues now with John Vause and Zain Asher at the center in Atlanta.