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Don Lemon Tonight
White House Not Participating in Judiciary Committee Hearing; Republicans Deny and Dodge Questions About Trump and Ukraine; Giuliani Digging Up Political Dirt in Ukraine; Nikki Haley Slammed for Confederate Flag Remarks; Nikki Haley Says Charleston Shooter 'Hijacked' Confederate Flag; FBI Investigating Motive in Deadly Pensacola Shooting; The 13th Annual CNN Heroes. Aired 11p-12a ET
Aired December 06, 2019 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: It's going to be a very fun night and very inspiring. I hope you join us. Thanks for watching. Good night.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon. We've got to give the Trump White House an A for consistency, once again refusing to cooperate with the House impeachment investigation.
Tonight was the deadline for President Trump to decide if he and his aides would play a role in the proceedings, specifically the next House Judiciary Committee hearing, which is set for Monday morning.
In a sharply worded two paragraph letter sent this afternoon to Judiciary Chairman Jerry Nadler, the White House counsel Pat Cipollone blasting the whole process saying, "Your impeachment inquiry is completely baseless and has violated basic principles of due process and fundamental fairness."
He went to on to claim that "Adopting articles of impeachment would be a reckless abuse of power by House Democrats, and would constitute the most unjust, highly partisan and unconstitutional attempt at impeachment."
Well, Congressman Jerry Nadler responded immediately in a statement and I quote here, "If the president has no good response to the allegations, then he would not want to appear before the committee. Having declined this opportunity, he cannot claim that the process is unfair."
And House Intel Chairman Adam Schiff saying the White House said they wanted open hearings, not closed. And then they didn't want those either. Then said they wanted to participate in the proceedings and now they say they don't. All they really want is hide the president's serious misconduct. It's not working.
The House Speaker Nancy Pelosi undaunted by the House in transient said this at CNN's town hall last night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): Facts are clear. The Constitution is clear. The president violated the Constitution.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So the White House decision was not unexpected. Given the president's repeated refusal to turn over subpoenaed documents or allow subpoenaed officials to testify.
Trump's legal team has an official chance to defend the president in the impeachment inquiry and they are declining. Yet the president says over and over --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: They don't give us any fair play. It's the most unfair situation people have seen. No lawyers. You can't have lawyers. You can't speak. You can't do anything.
The way they're doing it, they've taken away our rights.
We literally have no rights on the other side. We have no rights. We have no anything. And it's very unfair situation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Shall refuse, stall, refuse, dodge, deny, confuse. It's not only the strategy of the White House, it's what Republicans on Capitol Hill have been doing all along.
So, let's review the facts, OK. Remember, facts first because facts do matter. I know in this time it doesn't seem like they do, but they do. The rough transcript of President Trump's now infamous July 25th phone call with Ukraine's president shows Trump clearly asking him to investigate Joe Biden and his son Hunter.
Yesterday, my Capitol Hill colleague, Manu Raju, asked the House Republican leader if it's ever appropriate for a president to ask a foreign country to investigate a political rival. That's a clear question. The answer, not so much.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): At every single time of every witness that the Democrats got so select and control, they were asked the question. The two best witnesses they had that they started this all with. Can you name one article that he should be impeached upon? No one could say a word. So why are we going through this nightmare?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK. That's both a dodge and it's confusing. Manu tried again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) answer (INAUDIBLE) investigation, sir?
(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: The best way to dodge a question, just walk away. Then there's Republican Jim Jordan, you know, the congressman who doesn't wear a jacket to hearings. Well, doesn't wear a jacket pretty much most of the time.
He loves to shout at and berate witnesses. Manu Raju asked him directly was it proper for President Trump to use Rudy Giuliani, his personal attorney, to pressure Ukraine to investigate the Bidens? Here is Jordan's answer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): Look, there was a new guy elected. The president has for the longest time talked about his concern about foreign aid, his concern about corruption in Ukraine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: President Trump should be concerned about distributing U.S. foreign aid money. It is part of his job. And he should be concerned if there's corruption in Ukraine.
[23:04:59]
But Jordan didn't answer the question if it was right for the president to use Giuliani in the grand scheme to get a domestic political rival. He dodged it although he didn't yell out his answer that time.
So, let's move on now to Congressman Mark Amodei, OK. He is a Nevada Republican. He tried to turn the tables on Manu's question. Take a look at this one.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The White House transcript that was released had President Trump asking President Zelensky to open investigations to the Bidens.
REP. MARK AMODEI (R-NV): Do you know if they even have plans to call the whistleblower? Because I heard they didn't. Now, I don't know if that's true.
RAJU: You're not answering my question about the substance of the allegation.
AMODEI: I disagree with your conclusion. It's a conclusion not a question.
RAJU: I'm asking you about what's in the White House transcript.
AMODEI: Well, my English teacher says you've got to a conclusion. So, if you want to interview yourself, go right ahead. You're interviewing me.
RAJU: Why don't you want to answer the question about is it OK for the president to ask --
AMODEI: This is not a question.
RAJU: -- a foreign country to investigate the Bidens.
AMODEI: Why don't you want to do an interview instead of interviewing yourself?
RAJU: The president asked on the White House lawn --
AMODEI: Will you answer my question?
RAJU: On the south lawn of the White House the president asked China to investigate the Bidens. Is that OK?
AMODEI: Hey, you know what? If you don't want to interview me then interview yourself.
RAJU: I'm asking you a question. If you don't want to answer --
AMODEI: I don't understand.
RAJU: You don't understand?
AMODEI: Yes.
RAJU: OK.
AMODEI: Thanks for doing the best you could.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Clearly he doesn't understand. I mean, if you don't have an answer what do you do? Dodge, deflect, here's a shiny object. Ask a question. Walk away.
Probably bringing in the whistleblower is a non-issue. Calling Manu Raju's question a conclusion, that's absurd and it's insulting. Congressman Amodei's non-answer answer was embarrassing to him and a disservice to the American public.
Not only did he dodge a legitimate question and refuse to answer it, he deliberately confused and misled on a very serious issue that may constitute President Trump abusing his power. One of the probable articles of impeachment Congress is likely to vote on in the next two weeks.
And we know the president is preoccupied with the impeachment proceedings and he should be. Maybe that's why he went off on a tangent today at the White House during a meeting with small business leaders about deregulation, acting more like the plumber-in-chief. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We have a situation where we're looking very strongly at sinks and showers and other elements of bathrooms where you turn the faucet on and areas where there's a tremendous amount of water, where the water rushes out to sea because you could never handle it.
And you don't get any water. You turn on the faucet, you don't get any water. They take a shower and water comes dripping out. It's creeping out, very quietly dripping out. People are flushing toilets 10 times, 15 times as opposed to once.
They end up using more water. So, EPA is looking at that very strongly at my suggestion. You go into a new building or new house or new home and they have standards. You don't get water. You can't wash your hands practically. There's so little water that comes out of the faucet.
And the end result is you leave the faucet on and it takes you much longer to wash your hand. You end up using the same amount of water. So we're looking at very seriously at opening up the standard and there may be some areas where we'll go the other route, desert areas.
But for the most part, you have many states where they have so much water that it comes down. It's called rain that they don't know what to do with it. So, we're going to be opening up that I believe and we're looking at changing the standards very soon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Do you know what he's talking about?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nope.
LEMON: Do you guys -- do you? Do you have any idea? We needed that, but we didn't need that after this week, right. Not clear what standards he's talking about or when they might be changing. Didn't stop at water, though.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: The light bulb. They got rid of the light bulb that people got used to. The new bulb is many times more expensive and I hate to say it. It doesn't make you look as good.
Of course, being a vane person, that's very important to me. It's like -- it gives you an orange look. I don't want an orange look. Has anyone noticed that?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: You should watch Anderson's "RidicuList" tonight. He explains the whole orange look, probably not the light bulb. Maybe it's a bronzer? I'm just saying. Maybe it's make-up. It could be a tanning booth. I don't know. It's something. Anderson explains it. Go check it out. I'm sure it's online or the re-broadcast that will be on later.
[23:10:01]
It's probably good that the president is having a few laughs. It's nice to see a little self-deprecating humor. But the truth of it is what he is looking at right now and what the nation is facing, no laughing matter.
And there is some breaking news tonight that we have to report in the impeachment investigation as the White House firmly refuses to have any part in the proceedings. A lot to discuss.
The people here I'm talking to earlier asking them if they had any idea what the president is talking about. They're going to weigh in. Katherine Rampell, Matthew Rosenberg, Guy Smith, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Here's a breaking news tonight as the impeachment investigation draws closer to probable articles of impeachment against President Trump. The Trump-Ukraine impeachment inquiry report as it is known has been officially sent to the House Judiciary Committee. It's official now. It's been sent to that committee.
I want to bring in now Katherine Rampell, Matthew Rosenberg and Guy Smith. Good evening everyone on this Friday evening. Katherine, I want to start with you.
[23:15:03]
The House -- White House is not going to participate in these impeachment proceedings and the proceedings despite all the complaining that this is -- hasn't been fair. Looking at the letter sent by Pat Cipollone, the counsel to the president, game plan all along? Anybody here shocked, no?
KATHERINE RAMPELL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No, obviously not. Look, first the White House said that they demand that the transcripts be released and then the transcripts were released. They demand that there be open hearings, there were open hearings.
You know, they demanded that there was an impeachment vote, there was an impeachment vote. Then they demanded as well of course that Trump and his lawyers get to participate in this impeachment process, and then, you know, can't take yes for an answer as one of my colleagues put it. In case you were wondering whether this was conducted in good faith, obviously the answer is no.
LEMON: Yes. I'm just wondering, is this what you do when you don't have a good defense, that you call the whole thing illegitimate because I just want to read part of this, right. This is for you Guy.
This says, you know, as you know, the impeachment inquiry is baseless as it violated the basic principle of due process, fundamental fairness (INAUDIBLE). The House Speaker Nancy Pelosi or the Democrats move on. It says, House Democrats have wasted enough of America's time, but this charade -- I'm sure they said charade, right. But anyway, basically that's what they're saying, Guy. The president's counsel on Monday could have asked questions. They could have raised objections. They could have requested witness. They're choosing not to do any of this. So, this is what you do when you don't have a good defense?
GUY SMITH, FORMER CLINTON IMPEACHMENT ADVISER: That is exactly what you do when you don't have a good defense and they don't have a good defense because the president himself in the transcript from the 25th is shown that the bribery was right there.
But what's going to happen -- this is a part of the distortion and distraction that has been there all along. You saw -- you ran the tapes a little while ago of the Republican House members not answering the questions.
Well, that's exactly what's going to happen until it gets to the Senate. And the second ranking Republican senator, John Cornyn of Texas said just yesterday we don't want a three ring circus in the Senate.
And on a calm day, the Senate looks down on the House anyway. With all these antics that is going on in the Senate -- in the House, when it gets to the senate it's going to be solemn. It's going to be -- for the history books.
And the whole dynamic is going to change. And all this business is where we're going to invite all these thugs from Ukraine to be witnesses. It's not going to happen.
LEMON: So why do you think -- why doesn't it explicitly say they're not going to participate? It just says it should be called off. It's a charade. It's a sham. Those are the buzz words they're using.
SMITH: Well, because they want to leave their options open and they don't think that Fox News won't make that distinction that you just did.
LEMON: I'm sorry? That's a good point. OK. So listen, the president tweeted this out tonight, Matt. It says, "Nadler hasn't had a single fact witness testify! Zero substance." Judiciary has only had one hearing. And is the president forgetting that he blocked his closest aides from testifying. So he's saying he hasn't had one fact witness. He blocked everybody.
MATTHEW ROSENBERG, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: I mean, look, this is a strategy. You know, you say OK, you're not doing this fairly. People aren't testifying. OK, we'll let these people testify. No, no, we can't have that.
I mean, as everyone here has noted this is about obstruction. This is about muddying the waters and confusing people. There isn't a great defense. The facts aren't really in dispute at this point.
And probably what we're doing is distracting and we're saying they're doing it pretty well. The numbers are going in not a great direction, you know. The support for this isn't high in some areas. And so it does seem to be working to a degree.
LEMON: Because -- because -- listen, in those hearings and on television, right, Republicans are on point, right. They are on message. They're not fighting the substance. They're not even going anywhere near the substance. They're just saying this is a sham. This is whatever. They're attacking the witnesses. They're staying on message. It appears to be working in some ways.
ROSENBERG: And today you see in the Senate, Senator Grassley, Senator Graham and Ron Johnson of Wisconsin raising again this idea of Ukrainian meddling. So they want to hear from this Democratic consultant, Alexandra Chalupa, who was looking into the Manafort stuff. You know, that is another kind of effort to kind of further muddy the waters and further confuse.
LEMON: It's a conspiracy theory. And speaking of conspiracy theories, Katherine, on Monday, the district committee hearing, the DOJ's inspector general report, it's expected that the FBI is going to say, and again, if the reporting is correct, that the origins of the Russia investigation, right, that it was launched properly.
[23:20:07
RAMPELL: Correct.
LEMON: Right. There may have been some mistakes, right, human errors which shouldn't have happened, but it was launched properly. Is that, if the reporting is correct, it's not going to be a good day for the president and for the conspiracy theorists who are hoping?
RAMPELL: No. I mean, this I.G. was hand-picked to basically confirm the conspiracy theory that Trump has been promoting all along, that Bill Barr, the A.G., has been promoting all along.
And it was in effort essentially to distract from the very bad evidence that we have been talking about that the president was extorting a foreign ally into inventing a fake investigation into a domestic political rival.
The problem is that the distraction doesn't hold up either. So, I do wonder, what are we going to see on Monday if in fact this reporting is correct? If the distraction isn't effective, what are they going to do to distract us from the distraction, right?
I mean, that's always the Trump question. When it turns out that whatever it is he's ginned (ph) up to try to deflect and get the conversation going onto a subject matter that he thinks is not as damming for him, but this one turns out to be as damning for him. How is he going to up the ante? And that's what concerns me.
LEMON: But even --
RAMPELL: Maybe more toilet smells (ph).
LEMON: But even -- and you brought up the distraction is going to be what you just said, right. They'll still going to say that, what you just said --
ROSENBERG: Ukraine meddled. You know, it was the Ukrainians. It was the Democrats. It wasn't the Russians. And why aren't we focused on that. We should be looking at this, Hunter Biden, whatever.
LEMON: Yes, but the Senate looked into it and found that Ukraine didn't meddle. There was no evidence that they did meddle, but they are still saying that.
RAMPELL: Oh, Trump's own people said that. Tom (INAUDIBLE) said that on live T.V.
LEMON: Can you -- Guy, why is Rudy Giuliani in Kiev? Why is he in Ukraine even as all of this is going on? With photographs of him popping up -- of him trying to dig up dirt while articles of impeachment are being drawn up. What the heck is going on?
SMITH: I'm going to answer your question in Russian. Rudy Giuliani is a rossiyskiy aktiv (ph). That means a Russian asset, or more charitably, he's a politically (ph) --
LEMON: -- end part in and that's we're going to --
SMITH: More charitably, he's a poleznyy idiot (ph) which means a useful idiot. Either way, they're doing Russia's bidding. And it's more of the distraction as Matt was saying.
The distraction is going to just continue until we get to the Senate trial. Then there will be real witnesses like Bolton and Pompeo and Mulvaney. Fact witnesses and then there's going to be a real problem.
LEMON: Believing as all of this is not -- this isn't really about Rudy Giuliani. This is about President Trump. He's doing President Trump's dirty work --
SMITH: That's right.
LEMON: -- on the conspiracy theories and trying to come up with some excuse for him other than what's really happening right in the face of everyone as the impeachment is going on. He's doing exactly what Nancy Pelosi and the Democrats are saying, that he's --
RAMPELL: I'm coming to the conclusion that Trump may not be hiring the best people, you know, if this is his attorney. His other attorney is apparently signing legal documents with a sharpie and this guy is returning to the scene of a crime like a perp on "Law and Order."
SMITH: Even when Andrew Johnson's -- his lawyers didn't do this and one of his articles of impeachment was saying bad things about the Congress.
LEMON: Yes, thank you all. I appreciate it. Nikki Haley under fire for saying the Confederate battle flag came down from the South Carolina statehouse because it was hijacked by the Charleston church shooter. Now, some are accusing her of hijacking history.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:25:00]
LEMON: Former U.N. Ambassador Nikki Haley was governor of South Carolina in 2015 when a gunman walked into the Emanuel AME Church in Charleston and killed nine people. His actions that day were racist, reprehensible and led to the Confederate battle flag being removed from the South Carolina statehouse.
Then Governor Nikki Haley signed a bill ordering the flag to be removed with nine different pins to symbolize each of the victims. That's why Haley's comments of going back about the shooting have so many people upset.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NIKKI HALEY, FORMER GOVERNOR OF SOUTH CAROLINA: South Carolina fell to our knees when this happened. This is one of the oldest African- American churches. These 12 people were amazing people. They loved their church. They loved their family. They loved their community.
And here is this guy that comes out with his manifesto holding the Confederate flag and had just hijacked everything that people thought of. And we don't have hateful people in South Carolina.
There's always the small minority that's always going to be there. But, you know, people saw it as service and sacrifice and heritage. And -- but once he did that, there was no way to overcome it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So let's discuss now. Abby Phillip is here, Karen Finney and Matt Lewis as well. OK, Abby, Nikki Haley got lots of praise -- I was there when this happened. She got lots of praise for her decision to take down that Confederate flag in 2015. Now, she says it represented sacrifice and heritage. What happened?
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I mean, Don, I was there too. I mean, I went down to South Carolina after that massacre and interviewed Nikki Haley and did a profile about her and this decision. And I'll tell you, I mean, she understands what this issue is really about.
[23:29:57]
She told me when we sat down that her son had actually raised the issue of the Confederate flag and its awful history to her and asked her if it had ever been discussed before this point to take it down. And she reminded him of back in 2000, when South Carolina moved the Confederate flag from top of the capitol dome in the South Carolina State House to the place where it eventually was in 2015, on the state house grounds, and that decision in 2015, years before Dylann Roof was incredibly controversial.
So, you know, listening to this, what is surprising about this is not that Nikki Haley is repeating the viewpoint of white South Carolinians, some of whom believe that maybe this is about heritage, but it's the complete absence of the viewpoint of black South Carolinians, who she knows view this flag as a symbol of hate. It's the absence of what she did not say that is really so striking.
And, you know, frankly to a lot of people disappointing about what she had to say, at one point, Nikki Haley was viewed as the future of maybe of the Republican Party in the south, and I think now it's a lot -- it seems a lot different based on what she said in this interview.
LEMON: It's a 180 of what she had to say. And when you all -- I mean, it just sounds like she wants to be president and that she's trying to appeal to the Trump base. That's exactly what it sounds like. You had a chance to interview her, Karen. I had a chance to speak with Haley after the 2015 shooting. We spoke about her childhood, growing up in South Carolina as a daughter of Indian immigrants. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON (on camera): Does it mean more to you? Does it make you connected to this issue? Do you have a special feeling about it?
HALEY: We grew up an Indian family in a small town in South Carolina. My father wears a turban. My mother at a town wore a sari. It was hard growing up in South Carolina.
But what I have always been proud of and what I worked towards is to make sure that today is better than yesterday and that my kids don't go through what we went through. And now I feel good because now I know my kids can look up and there won't be a flag, and it will be one less reason to divide and it will be more reasons for us to come together.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: OK.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: So, Karen, she clearly knows a Confederate flag symbolizes to what the non-whites southern communities today that is not service or sacrifice. She stated it there in that interview. Is this -- what is going on? Is this invasion of the body snatchers? What happened?
KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, it is. I mean, what she just said on Glenn Beck is shameful. And I say that, A, as an African American, but B, as someone who is descendant of Robert E. Lee. I can be -- let us be very clear. The Confederate flag is a symbol of hate and racism and the confederacy. She knows it.
What this represents though is the full 180 of the Republican Party who just decided and we saw it perfectly well on display during the impeachment hearings. They have taken leave of their senses. They have taken leave of facts and truth and decided, you know what, we're all in with Trump. We are now the party of Trump. Facts don't matter. Truth doesn't matter. And what's so shameful about this though is there will be a day when there is not a Donald Trump as president. And the thing for Nikki Haley and for a lot of these young members who are young enough who will likely be around in let's say 10 years, we now have video of her saying one thing and then the other.
And I promise you, should she try to run for president, there will be plenty of people there to remind her that she decided to fall in with a racist false narrative for the -- I think in part one, because she is trying to sell a book, and number two, she has decided to be a defender of the president because she thinks like many others, that's the way to go now.
LEMON: OK. So, Matt, I want to bring you in here. Listen -- let me play another clip because I want to get your reaction. This is from the interview with Beck about the media's role in the shooting.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HALEY: The national media came in in droves. They wanted to define what happened. They wanted to make this about racism. They want to make it about gun control. They want to make it about death penalty. And I really pushed off the national media and said there will be a time and place where we talk about this but it is not now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: The media made Dylann Roof's attack racist?
MATT LEWIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. I don't know why she went there other than it is just fun and easy to attack the media. I mean, if the media made Dylann -- you know, a white supremacist goes in and murders African American worshippers at a church and that's not? The media made that about race but that wasn't about race? It's insane.
[23:34:56]
LEWIS: But look, I think -- not to put too fine a point on it but we've got comments she made in 2015, right, where in 2015 she talked about, you know, my father wore a turban, my mother wore a sari, I can't look at my kids if we don't take the flag down, it was tough growing up in South Carolina --
LEMON: Now they can grow up and they don't have to look at that flag --
LEWIS: Yes.
LEMON: -- and that's symbol of hate.
LEWIS: And what does she say today? She basically says that the flag wasn't about hate until Dylann Roof hijacked it. So, what changed between 2015 and 2019? Obviously, it's Donald Trump. And I think Karen, you know, is pretty much right on in terms of where this goes.
I have to say, you know, there was a time in 2015 when I think Nikki Haley believed that you could get ahead in the Republican Party by being a compassionate conservative that maybe someday she could win the presidency by bringing together diverse Americans and soccer moms and everybody else behind her.
Now, I don't think she believes that anymore. I think she believes you have to be Trumpy to win the Republican nomination.
LEMON: Matt, she was one of the few members of the Trump administration to make it out with her reputation intact.
LEWIS: Yes.
LEMON: It seems like she somehow -- she is trying to get back in?
LEWIS: That's the -- it's like "Godfather 2," right? They keep sucking her back in except she is the one running back. There is burning house and she is running into it. It's stunning, right? So she makes it through this amazing event in South Carolina, this tragedy, this horrific shooting, actually comes out of that looking great, looking like a leader, a unifier, survives that, then she goes into the Trump administration.
Rick Wilson says everything Trump touches dies. I mean, the first two people who endorsed Trump, I believe, were indicted or have left Congress or leaving Congress. And yet, Nikki Haley serves as ambassador to the U.N., gets out unscathed, and keeps coming back in, I guess, because as Karen said, a book, and she wants to be president.
PHILLIP: Don, one of the interesting things also about Nikki Haley was that she -- when Charlottesville happened, she made a point to make it clear to the public that she disagreed with the president and how he handled Charlottesville. But what Charlottesville was about was about the normalization of a false narrative that Confederate symbols are about anything other than racism and slavery. And essentially, what she's doing in this interview is pandering to those very same people who have bought into --
LEMON: The very fine people on both sides.
PHILLIP: -- that false narrative.
LEMON: Yes. Abby, I want to get this in.
PHILLIP: I think that's part of the problem.
LEMON: I want to get this in before we run out of time, another clip from my interview with Haley after the shooting. She sounded very different. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HALEY: A flag is living and breathing. And so it represents something. I think it should be in any museum setting. I think it should be at Fort Sumter. I think it should be in those places of historical settings. Not in places that represent all people. If someone wants to travel to see it, that's one thing. But it shouldn't be in front of someone's face to where they have to feel it.
LEMON: Should it fly? Do you think it should be --
HALEY: In museums. I mean, at museums, if they want to have it, absolutely. That's where historical things should be. But present things going in the future, that's different.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Karen, I am pressed for time. But to Abby's point, that was a point she was making. What a difference four years makes.
FINNEY: Absolutely. Remember, the Confederate flag and those symbols of the confederacy also were symbols of oppression. Those were symbols that were erected at the time in this country when white America was trying to say to black America, you know, we're going to get you. And so for her to be so disingenuous in that 180, it's really just an example of what has happened to the Republican Party.
LEMON: So many people in the Republican Party. It is really unbelievable to watch. Thank you. Thank you all. I appreciate it.
Investigators are digging into the motive of a deadly shooting at a naval air station in Pensacola carried out by a Saudi military pilot in training. Why the attack is putting the president's relationship with Saudi Arabia in the spotlight, that's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Breaking news in the shooting attack at a naval air station in Pensacola, Florida. The FBI says there is an active and ongoing investigation to determine why a Saudi military trainee opened fire at the base, killing three people and wounding at least eight others.
Let's discuss now. James Gagliano is here and Juliette Kayyem. Thank you so much for joining us. Terrible story. James, the FBI has agents working on this and the U.S. and the Saudi Arabia as well. What are they doing to determine whether this is terror-related because we don't know at this point?
JAMES GAGLIANO, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Don, I was -- I watched the press conference earlier this evening, the FBI press conference. I was struck by a couple things. Number one, I know Rachel Rojas, special agent in charge of the Jacksonville office that is covering this. And to see her --
LEMON: She gave the press conference?
GAGLIANO: She gave the press conference.
LEMON: Very emotional?
GAGLIANO: Yes. She was visibly distraught. I imagine being in the crime scene and seeing the carnage this morning visibly affected her. What I was also struck by was really the close hold information. The FBI is holding on couple things. They are willing to release the name yet. I know the name is out in the public sphere right now. The second piece of this is they are not willing to declare this an active terror just yet.
[23:45:00]
GAGLIANO: The FBI is always cautious in these instances. Now, you assume terror in instances like this and you work backwards. But before you make a declarative statement, it has to meet the threshold. What is the threshold? It has to be an act of violence or intimidation and furtherance of some type of political goal. They are not prepared yet to say that that is what it is.
LEMON: Juliette, the biggest question you have about the shooting tonight?
JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: This is exactly where James is, motivation. Just to get the chronology right, so he enters the country two years ago and basically the way it works is when these military officials are invited in. They are vetted by the Department of Defense for drug use, criminal behavior or any nexus to terrorism. Once in, however, they are considered fine.
And then you have him here for two years on and off. He probably went back to Saudi Arabia for some periods. Two years is a long time for lots of things to happen. He may have known people. He wanted to go after people. So, the FBI's caution in this case makes a lot of sense to me because it wasn't like he just came over, maybe had been doing something in Saudi Arabia to plan something.
Two years is a long time. I'm also waiting to determine sort of where the FBI is going to go with this. The investigation will take place likely in two different countries. We may find out that it ends up having a lot to do with his experience here rather than something that we might relate to back to Saudi Arabia.
LEMON: James, how close do they follow them? Do they track or they check up on them while they're here?
GAGLIANO: Well, not really. Don, I went to West Point with Saudi exchange cadets. I went to the MT officer (ph) basic course as an army officer, as a lieutenant with Saudi officers. I attended numbers of different military training exercises with Saudi sailors and folks from their neighbor brigade.
When you say check up on it, they are treated the same way. These are fraternal exchanges between countries that are either allies of ours or we have a friendly relationship with. So I don't know how much continued background checks. Do they do a five-year reinvestigation like they would do for an FBI agent? I don't know that for a fact.
LEMON: They don't check up like how are you doing?
GAGLIANO: To Juliette's point, once they're cleared and it's determined they can safely A, be in the country, and then B, you're also going to be in training scenarios where you're using weapons and you're going to have access to live ammunition.
So, if you're going to trust somebody to do that. I don't know if they continue to run background checks on them like criminal checks or things like that or they maintain contact with the -- you're hosting them with the country that -- from the origin. I don't know.
LEMON: Juliette, President Trump spoke to King Salman of Saudi Arabia today about the shooting. This is how he described their conversation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The king said that the Saudi people are greatly angered by the barbaric actions of the shooter and that this person in no way, shape, or form represents the feelings of the Saudi people who love the American people so much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: If this was from any other Islamic country, do you think President Trump would have the same tone?
KAYYEM: No, nor Mexico for that matter. I mean, just think about immigrants -- an undocumented immigrant who kills someone here. So it was a very sort of complimentary phone call or description of a phone call. Why does that matter? The guy who killed at the base today doesn't represent the Saudis. Any more than a Mexican represents -- who might have done something similar would represent Mexico.
Why this matter is a couple of issues. Why is the president so motivated to compliment the Saudi Arabia before there's an investigation? We don't know yet. He was a government official. He is paid for by the government. Secondly, we have a number of cases here in Saudi Arabia -- people are forgetting this -- in which the Saudis have essentially taken people --
LEMON: We got to go, Juliette.
KAYYEM: -- man accused of rape or other things. We have a criminal investigation that we have to protect at this stage.
LEMON: All right. Thank you both. I appreciate it. We'll be right back.
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KAYYEM: Thanks. Sorry.
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[23:50:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) LEMON: For many, this time of year is about giving back. The 13th annual CNN Heroes all-star tribute salutes 10 people who put others first all year long. The star-studded gala airs live this Sunday at 8:00 p.m. Eastern. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): There is a saying in Ethiopia. People are medicine for people.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): What we do here is provide food, clothing and shelter and a whole lot of love.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): To give children a place to mourn their loss and tell their story.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Through the best the world has to offer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): We're going to start a program, and we're going to help people.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): I'm feeling the love.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): They're heroes today and every day.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): I think we must talk less and do action more.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Video games are an incredible source of relief during difficult times.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): We purchased RV and give it to a family who lost their home in a fire.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Many of our kids come to us traumatized. I just want to see them happy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): It impacts lives that don't feel they have a voice.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Join Anderson Cooper and Kelly Ripa live as they name the 2019 CNN hero of the year.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Our heroes are incredible people.
KELLY RIPA, ACTRESS: Their work and their stories will inspire you tonight.
[23:55:01]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): CNN Heroes, an all-star tribute, December 8th at 8:00 p.m. on CNN.
(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: It's going to be a great show. You won't want to miss it. So gather up the family, grab your tissues, and get ready to be inspired. Thanks for watching. Our coverage continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
