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Syrian Defector: Assad Must Go; Ugly End to Clinton's Egyptian Visit; Professors Urge Hotels Get Rid of Porn TV; Boy, 8, Climbs Mount Kilimanjaro; New York City Thinks Big on Small Apartments; Louis Freeh Painted Damning Picture of Penn State Leaders; How Americans View Fallen Public Figures
Aired July 15, 2012 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone. I'm Poppy Harlow, in for Don Lemon. You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.
Let's get you up to speed on the news today.
First off, this is not good for the president of Syria. One of his most senior officials had defected and now, he is talking to CNN. Nawaf al-Fares was until a few days ago the Syrian ambassador to Iraq. Not anymore. He left his post, fled to another country and is now supporting the rebels trying to throw out President Bashar al-Assad.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NAWAF AL-FARES, NEWLY-DEFECTED SYRIAN OFFICIAL (through translator): The regime in Syria is a totalitarian regime and dictatorship. There's only one person who gives the orders. One person who is the president.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: Fares talked exclusively to CNN from his secure location in Qatar. Much more of that, including what he says about Syria protecting al Qaeda. That's straight ahead in just a few minutes.
Meantime, the Syrian capital witnessed the most intense fighting yet today, according to activists. The opposition says 57 people were killed today alone in Damascus. Activists have a message for President Obama. They say the time for action from the international community is now, regardless of how it might impact the election in November.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABDULBASET SIEDA, SYRIAN NATIONAL COUNCIL PRESIDENT: With regard to America specifically, we would like to say to President Obama that waiting for Election Day the make the right decision on Syria is unacceptable for Syrians. We cannot understand that a superpower ignores the killing of tens of thousands of Syrian civilians because of an election campaign that a president may win or lose.
(END VIDEO CLIP) HARLOW: Also in the Middle East, an American pastor kidnapped in Egypt apparently had no idea that where he was traveling was a dangerous area. Pastor Michel Louis was abducted along with a parishioner and their tour guard. His son talked with CNN's Randi Kaye today about their ordeal and how it's taking a toll on the entire family, especially the pastor's wife.
(BEGIN VIDEO LCIP)
REV. JEAN LOUIS, SON OF KIDNAPPED U.S. PASTOR: It's all of a sudden and I just -- she even right now seems like a dream to her, a nightmare.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: Nightmare indeed. We'll have more of the interview with Randi coming up in just a few minutes.
Another chapter in the global rate-fixing scandal. According to "The New York Times" today, the Justice Department says it is now looking into possible criminal activity. Authorities around the world are trying to find out if banks manipulated a key interest rate that impacts most consumers right before the financial crisis hit. Ten big banks including Barclays, Citigroup and JPMorgan Chase are reportedly being investigated.
And police arrested NBA star Jason Kidd early this morning in South Hampton, New York. They say the newly signed New York Knick star was drunk and crashed his Cadillac Escalade into a pole. Doctors treated him for minor injuries at a hospital. Kidd signed a reported three- year, $9.5 million deal on Thursday.
And the state of Florida will now have access to a federal law enforcement database to challenge the eligibility of voters. State officials sued last month to gain access to that database in an attempt to purge non-citizens from voting roles. A handful of key swing states have been closely monitoring what's been happening in Florida, thinking about launching their own legal fight.
And sad news from the entertainment world. Academy Award winning actress Celeste Holm has died at her home in New York. Holm starred on Broadway, television and in film, but was probably best known for her role in "Gentleman's Agreement", which earned her the best supporting actress award back in 1947. She was 95 years old.
Well, it is the hour's top story, a top Syrian official defects. He's the highest ranking member of President Bashar al Assad's inner circle to leave the country and completely switch allegiances to support the rebels. The former Syrian ambassador to Iraq is being protected today by the government of Qatar and he talked exclusively to one American network, that is CNN.
Our Ivan Watson spoke with him about the dictatorship in Syria and why he decided to leave.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) IVAN WATSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Who is making the decisions in Damascus right now? Who is directing the Syrian government policy at facing this uprising?
FARES (through translator): The regime in Syria is a totalitarian regime and a dictatorship. There is only one person who gives the orders -- one person who is the president. The rest of the regime personnel are people who only obey.
WATSON: You have been a senior member within the Syrian government, a governor, the first ambassador to Iraq from Syria in more than 20 years. What prompted you to say, "I've had it, I don't want to work with this government anymore"?
FARES: I served the Syrian regime for 34 years. I was among those at the top of the Syrian regime. But what happened in the last year during the holy revolution, all the killing, the massacres, the refugees and the declaration of war by Bashar al-Assad against the Syrian people stopped any kind of hope towards real change which had been promised previously by Bashar al-Assad.
Of course, the regime will try and destroy my reputation. This is a well-known tactic. I may be the defection that hurts the regime the most.
WATSON: The Syrian president and supporters, do they believe they'll win in the end?
FARES: They are trapped. They committed crimes. And they entered into a war of blood. And they are aware that they're going to pay for it. They're just buying time. Maybe they will get a chance to escape.
WATSON: Do you want a military intervention into Syria from foreign powers?
FARES: This regime will not go without force. The suffering of the Syrian people is very great and they want it to end by any way possible. I support military intervention because I know the nature of this regime. This regime will only go with force.
WATSON: What message would you like to send to Bashar al-Assad and to your former colleagues in the Syrian government right now?
FARES: My former colleagues, I ask them to join the people and leave this corrupt regime. And there's still time for that.
To Bashar al-Assad, I say you don't know history. Two wills cannot be defeated -- the will of God and the will of the people. So learn from history. Have mercy on the poor people of Syria and history will curse you for the crimes you committed in Syria.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARLOW: And more now on those two Americans waiting for their freedom in Egypt. Pastor Michel Louis was abducted along with a parishioner from another church and their tour guide on Friday in the Sinai Peninsula. An Egyptian official says they're unharmed and well-fed. Our Randi Kaye spoke with family members this morning. They discussed their fears and their hopes that all will be freed soon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LOUIS: We know as much as we know in the news in terms of they're doing a lot of negotiating. They're trying the best that they can. And we're waiting.
RANDI KAYE, CNN ANCHOR: How concerned are you about your father's health?
LOUIS: We are concerned, but we're Christians and we believe in God. We're in good faith. We're resolved in our faith. We're -- we know that God is going to see him out of this situation.
But at the same time, too, we're human. And we just want to see our father get home. We want to see the sister, the member get home also. We also want to see the tour guide too because I'm sure a lot of people are not speaking about him too. But we want to see everybody come home safely.
He's diabetic so there's the only concern we might have. We have not spoken to him. I especially have not spoken to him since I have dropped him off at the airport on Tuesday. So we just would like the release and hopefully he is being treated very well where he is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: Absolutely, wishing for the best for that entire family and a quick return for the pastor and that woman traveling with him.
Well, coming up next, Mitt Romney's running mate. Is Condi Rice actually a possible candidate at all? She says no way, so why does the Drudge Report have everyone talking?
And if you're a New Yorker, like I am, you know how much living space is limited. But how much are you willing to pay for teeny tiny apartment? Coming hp next, the tight squeeze for living space.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARLOW: All right. So Condoleezza Rice says over and over again that she does not want to be vice president. She doesn't want to run for office. But it seems like she cannot escape this debate no matter what she says.
Let's talk about the Condi factor with two of our regular CNN contributors Will Cain and L.Z. Granderson. L.Z. is also a senior writer at ESPN. We're going to talk to him later on the show also about sports.
But, guys, the Condi Rice talk started again a few days ago with this report on the "Drudge Report" that she was a frontrunner. She'd be on Mitt Romney's ticket. I'm just -- I've got to talk about the timing here, right? Because this comes out Friday and you've got Bain, Bain, Bain, and it's Condi, Condi, Condi. There's a lot of talk that Matt Rhoades of the campaign is pretty close to people at the "Drudge Report".
So what do we think here? Is there any real substance to this? Do you think that Condi is a viable running mate at this point in time?
WILL CAIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: No, I don't. I don't know how he feels.
L.Z. GRANDERSON, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Neither do I.
CAIN: Yes, I don't think this is realistic. We can just run through the litany of reasons quickly why Condi Rice doesn't make sense to be Mitt Romney's V.P. candidate, but the most important of which she is pro-choice. And that is somewhat of a deal killer for any Republican running for national office, especially the vice presidential level.
What more, as you just said, Poppy, she doesn't want to be vice president. So, it's a nonstarter. And the timing of it is obvious because -- changing the subject. Let's not talk about Bain.
But by the way, the Bain conversation was also a subject changer from the jobs report a week ago. So let's just be fair. We're just changing subjects away from the things that hold real substance.
HARLOW: You know, obviously --
GRANDERSON: Well, those two are at least related, though, will. At least the Bain and the job reports, at least they're related because Mitt Romney is running on the fact that he can create more jobs. So, when the jobs report comes out, those two make sense to me.
HARLOW: L.Z. --
GRANDERSON: The Condi conversation, that makes no sense. Sorry, Poppy.
HARLOW: L.Z., let's talk about some other possible candidates, because when you look at Condi Rice, she's also very tied to the Bush administration and, you know, is not likely that Romney wants to be very associated with things that Condi was very involved in in terms of the invasion of Iraq, weapons of mass destruction, et cetera. Obviously the abortion issue is huge here.
But also, let's talk about some other possible running mates, OK? Rob Portman of Ohio. What about Bob McDonnell of Virginia? Two key states here. What do you think, L.Z., of either of those names?
GRANDERSON: I've been having a very difficult time. You know, when I saw the question an hour ago, I had a difficult time trying to find someone that made sense to me, that's because Mitt Romney's problem isn't trying to woo conservatives. His problem is trying to woo the independents.
And I don't think that adding conservative, or from somewhat conservative state, like Virginia, is going to help in his quest. It's not as if conservatives are going to say, well, if he doesn't pick the right V.P., we're going to then vote for President Obama. What he needs to do is communicate to the independents that he's not as crazy as some of the extremists in his base. And that requires him to pick a V.P. candidate who disagrees with him on social issues.
You know, personally I really like Mike Bloomberg. Mike Bloomberg, as he said, he'd think he would the run the country better than President Obama. The problem is, he disagrees with everything on social issues. And this has been the problem with Mitt Romney from the beginning too in finding a good candidate.
HARLOW: And, Will, you think Portman would be -- you told me in the break, sort of the ideal choice?
CAIN: That's right. I think L.Z. is applying the wrong analysis here. I don't think you look what the V.P. candidate is going to bring. I actually think what you do and what Rob Portman does is double down on bland. Bland is exactly what Mitt Romney --
HARLOW: Why double down on bland? Why, Will?
CAIN: Because they want this election to be about Barack Obama. President Barack Obama. This election needs to be a referendum on the job President Obama has done over the last four years. You don't need to give the voters something to vote for, you just want them to vote against Barack Obama.
I know a lot of people say the opposite. But that's the truth. Mitt Romney might just be the perfectly bland candidate.
HARLOW: How do you energize -- how do you energize voters -- Will, how do you energize voters with that strategy?
CAIN: I think Barack Obama has energized them.
HARLOW: How does a Romney and Portman ticket energize voters if you say you're doubling down on bland?
CAIN: Yes, I'm saying I think Barack Obama energized them. Those who will vote, they will vote against Barack Obama.
GRANDERSON: But those people are going to vote against President Obama regardless. He's not going to energize independents who are looking for solutions or answers. He's just saying he's just going to energize people who already despise him. That doesn't help his ticket at all.
HARLOW: I want to --
CAIN: By the way, the small little hedge is you pick somebody, though, like Portman, who also has the potential, the small potential to bring Ohio, which he must win. I don't know if Portman delivers Ohio, but that's potentially --
HARLOW: Ohio, no doubt a must win. A president hasn't been elected without winning Ohio since 1964.
I want to get you to a quick other topic that I find fascinating. The bipartisan outrage in Washington over our Olympian uniforms being made in China. Both the Senate Minority Leader, the House speaker, not happy about this. And when you look at the numbers, 98 percent of the apparel that we wear in this country, me, you, all of us is not made in the United States.
So, what do you make of all this outrage, guys?
GRANDERSON: I think it's ridiculous. I think it's grandstanding. I think if they wanted to have a mature conversation, they would talk about not just the clothes we wear, but how just about everything that we have depended upon and that we like for cheap prices are not made in this country. And have a real serious conversation about how that's influenced the economy.
When we talk about the Olympics, something that happens once every four years and what the clothes that the athletes may be wearing, that's absolutely ridiculous and just oversimplifies the problem.
The problem is that we have too many of our products made outside of the country and it just negatively impact the job market, as well as the economy.
HARLOW: And this is just an example. Will, quickly.
CAIN: Yes, just political grandstanding on that. L.Z. and I can agree. I mean, Harry is saying let's put them into a pile and burn them. It's an embarrassing political grandstanding --
HARLOW: Boehner wasn't happy about it either.
CAIN: What's that?
HARLOW: I said the House speaker wasn't happy about it either.
CAIN: Yes, as you said, it's bipartisan. Hundred percent say, this is ridiculous, bipartisan outrage. I would carry my analysis one step further than L.Z. I'd say this isn't a problem. Let's laud the maker's ability to find and make rational economic decisions to the lowest cost provider. That's American to me.
HARLOW: All right, guys. Thank you. Good to have you on. Appreciate it. L.Z. will be with you in a little bit.
And, folks, for the first time in Mexico, a newspaper publicly announces it will no longer report on crime by drug cartels. Very interesting story. A live report on the violence that lead to this decision. That's coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARLOW: Well, Hillary Clinton has visited more than a hundred countries as secretary of state, but few visits have ended as badly as her trip to Egypt. Elise Labott joins me by phone. She's traveling with the secretary. She's in Jerusalem, with more on what happened.
Elise, let's get to that first. Just give us a sense of what happen at the end of the secretary of state's trip.
ELISE LABOTT, CNN FOREIGN AFFAIRS REPORTER (via telephone): Well, poppy, she was opening -- she was doing a flag raising at one of the U.S. consulate in Alexandria, Egypt. And she was making some remarks ironically about how the U.S. wanted to support Egypt's transition and the fact that the U.S. wasn't picking any winners or losers.
That's been a criticism during the trip -- there were protesters outside the consulate. It was a little harrowing for her staff and us journalists. When we left, they were t throwing bottles of water. They were throwing tomatoes and they were throwing shoes, which is considered a real sign of disrespect in the Arab world.
They were chanting Monica, Monica. I think it was a reference to Monica Lewinsky. Obviously they didn't understand this was a totally new president or maybe it was a reference to Bill Clinton. But certainly it was a little bit harrowing.
The secretary, though, never in any trouble, never in any danger. Her car and her vehicle are not hit. But one of the Egyptian officials that was walking out did get hit in the face with a tomato.
HARLOW: Wow. Completely disrespectful. And, you know, it's interesting this comes after what seemed like a very welcome reception when she sat down with newly elected President Morsi yesterday. And then I know she met with the head military leader there and also with Coptic Christians. You said that was a difficult encounter for her as well, meeting with the Christian group.
LABOTT: Well, I think there's a real sense, and her aides kind of alluded to this when we were talking them about this sense in Egypt that there's a perception that the U.S. backs the Muslim Brotherhood. In Egypt, you know, obviously not everybody voted for President Morsi. There were a great deal of people who were scared about the Muslim Brotherhood.
They voted for the other candidate, Shafik, who was more in align with the military council, and the old regime.
And so, when they met -- the Coptic Christians and other Christian groups when they met with Secretary Clinton, they felt that you aren't protecting our rights. You aren't siding -- you're siding with the Muslim Brotherhood.
And what the secretary of state said right before this event was the U.S. doesn't pick any winners or losers. We're looking to help you with your democratic transition. She is talking to President Morsi to get his act together, get a government together. Also telling the military council get back to your day job and get a democratically elected president, time to get back to your real job of protecting the country. And so I think there's a lot of questions about U.S. intentions in the region. There always has been for many years, but now that President Hosni Mubarak is gone and there's a new president that the U.S. said this is a guy who was elected and this is a guy we're going to work with. The U.S. can't pick and choose who they want to work with this in this world.
HARLOW: And, Elise, quickly, what is the next step, where's the secretary headed next?
LABOTT: Well, we just landed in Tel Aviv just a short while ago, took a short ride to Jerusalem. She's in Jerusalem now. She'll be meeting with Israeli officials -- Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Defense Minister Barak and President Shimon Perez, among others.
Couple of issues on the agenda, obviously trying to get the U.S., the Israel-Palestinian peace process back together, but also giving her perceptions about what the situation in Egypt, Israelis are very concerned about what's going on on the border, with the Sinai. You have Syria, Iran. No shortage of issues to talk here at Israeli tomorrow, Poppy.
HARLOW: Especially with the kidnapping of those two Americans and, Elise, I know you have a big day an interview with the Secretary of State Hillary Clinton coming up tomorrow. We'll look for that. Great reporting in the six weeks you have been in the region. Thank you, Elise.
All right. It has been called a direct threat on the freedom of speech. Newspapers in Mexico are changing their reporting after violent threats from some of the country's most notorious drug cartels.
I find this as a journalist to be an outrageous, outraging story. Nick Valencia is with us here to talk about it.
We're talking in the break. And you said grenade attack.
NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Fragmentations grenade thrown at newspapers.
HARLOW: At two different newspapers.
VALENCIA: Two different states. Two different parts of Mexico, two different states.
This is a direct threat. Like -- you said it right, this is a direct threat on freedom of speech. We've all done stories that people don't like, that viewers don't like. Few of us have actually feared for our lives for doing these stories. This is a situation that those journalists at "El Manana" and "El Norte" in Monterrey are dealing with.
Let me tell you why it happened. At Monterrey, Mexico, this newspaper "El Norte", a very prominent newspaper there locally, they did an expose about the local department of motor vehicles issuing illegitimate, stolen license plates to make cars like legitimate. The next day, their newspaper offices there in Monterrey attacked with a fragmentation grenade.
Now, "El Manana" has been attacked several times, two times in the last two months, and then a couple of years ago, if you can even imagine this, masked gunmen, unknown gunmen, step into the newsroom, open fire indiscriminately with their AK-47s, one of the journalists, our colleagues, paralyzed.
HARLOW: You can't imagine that. We were running through the numbers. You said 80 some journalists killed.
VALENCIA: Since 2000.
HARLOW: Since 2000 across the country.
VALENCIA: Across Mexico.
HARLOW: But these are just journalists. And, you know, when you look at also what you told me, 90 percent of the crimes in Mexico go unsolved. So, it makes me wonder what kind of grasp if any enforcement the government, the police have there.
VALENCIA: Those are staggering numbers. You know, just to read them, 90 percent of crimes -- this is an official statistic from the attorney general's office of Mexico -- 90 percent or more of the crimes in Mexico go unsolved. And yes, they're committed to protect -- New York-based institution there, saying more than 80 journalists killed since 2000, half of which have been killed or kidnapped since Calderon took office, which, you know, seizing that power over to Enrique Pena Nieto.
HARLOW: This is the way you inform an electorate is through free press.
VALENCIA: Right.
HARLOW: And this is a huge step. It appears at least for these two newspapers, that this is coming on to an end for them. They're saying, that's it, we need to protect our staff.
VALENCIA: What makes this all the more unusual and I believe we have a statement from "El Manana" newspaper. But what makes this so much more unusual is the fact that they would address this publicly.
And they say, "We ask for the public's comprehension and will refrain, for as long as need, from publishing any information related to violent disputes our city and other regions are suffering."
You know, local news trickles up to the national level.
HARLOW: Yes.
VALENCIA: If you're losing these beat reporters, you're losing these people with institutional knowledge with what's going on in their cities. They're not reporting what's going on. This is information that Mexicans were getting that they just aren't getting anymore.
HARLOW: Unbelievable. Clearly the cartels are winning in this.
VALENCIA: Sad to say, but many people would agree with you.
HARLOW: Thank you for bringing us this report, Nick.
VALENCIA: Thank you.
HARLOW: All right. Adult entertainment, so accessible on TVs and many hotels. Well, a pair of Christian and Muslim scholars want to change that. We're going to tell you about that story coming up next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, before the iPad, I used to joke that I made useless programs. But they're as useless as a song, a movie, a story, something like that. And all of a sudden, with the iPad, I could just go directly to people and say, check this thing out.
It doesn't even -- we don't have to label what it is. It's just called Gravelex (ph). It's called bubble art. See if you like it and all of a sudden, they did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARLOW: Almost half past the hour now. Let's get you up to speed on the day's headlines.
First off, a very senior Syrian official breaks ranks with Damascus and supports the rebels. This man, the one-time Syrian ambassador to Iraq. He said Bashar al Assad is a dictator who rules Syria by decree and says the only solution to ending the conflict there is international military intervention. The former ambassador spoke exclusively to CNN.
The body of Mary Kennedy, the estranged wife of Robert Kennedy Jr, was moved to a new gravesite today on Cape Cod. The family chose what they're calling a sunny hillside in the same cemetery. They also bought 50 plots surrounding that grave, which will be reserved for her six children. Mary Kennedy hanged herself on May 16th after battling depression for much of her life.
Well, she made history as the first-ever legally blind contestant in the Miss Florida USA Pageant last night. She didn't win, but 18-year- old Connor Boss did finish fifth and was chosen as Ms. Photogenic. She wants to be a model and help others with disabilities. Boss is a freshman at Florida State University.
Well, they're right on your hotel remote. Somewhere among the movies, sports and news channels, you will find adult fare. But some people want hotels to remove that.
Here's our Susan Candiotti. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In many hotel rooms, finding adult entertainment is as simple as clicking a remote. But that's changing.
ROBERT GEORGE, PROFESSOR, PRINCETON UNIVERSITY: We are reaching out to people who are profiting from pornography and pointing out that's a bad thing to do.
CANDIOTTI: Professor Robert George, a Christian scholar from Princeton, and Shahamsa Yusa (ph), a Muslim scholar, co-wrote letters to the CEOs of the top-five hotel groups asking them to remove adult movies.
GEORGE: We believe, despite the lucrative nature of the pornography business, that hotel executives, people of goodwill, shareholders, can act on the basis of conscience here and lay profitability aside for the sake of human dignity.
CANDIOTTI: George calls the letter a small step and acknowledges that porn will still exist. He just hopes to limit access to it.
GEORGE: Society pays heavy costs in terms of damaged relationships, wounded people. Addiction.
CANDIOTTI: Craig Gross agrees, but feels going after hotels is the wrong approach.
CRAIG GROSS, FOUNDER, XXXCHURCH.COM: It is an empty gesture.
CANDIOTTI: Gross, from XXXchurch.com, ministers to those addicted to porn. He prefers to target the demand for adult movies not the supplier.
GROSS: This is about money and dollars. That's why this is sold in hotels. And so removing it from hotels, to me, isn't the issue. The issue is that people are consuming pornography.
CANDIOTTI: After all, pornography would still be available on the Internet and mobile devices even if hotels pulled the plug.
GROSS: Are we going to ask them to stop stocking the mini bar or stop selling Haagen-Dazs by the pint in room service?
CANDIOTTI: Porn star, Ron Jeremy, says there are many normal adults who watch adult movies and wants religion to butt out. He says you always have the option not to watch.
RON JEREMY, ADULT ENTERTAINMENT ACTOR: If you don't want to watch adult movies, watch "Gilligan's Island" reruns. I do. It's fine.
CANDIOTTI: The American Hotel and Lodging Association defends the right of hotels to choose. But Professor George hopes hotel CEOs see it differently.
GEORGE: There are some things that are so contrary to our humanity that they shouldn't be for sale either.
CANDIOTTI (on camera): The Omni Hotel dropped adult movies in 1999. Marriott says its new hotels won't have adult entertainment and hopes to phase it out altogether by 2013. Choice Hotels leaves it up to its franchisees. Others haven't responded to the letter.
Susan Candiotti, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARLOW: Well, can Penn State repair its image after this week's bombshell alleging that university leaders ignored sex abuse by Jerry Sandusky? And what about the legacy of Coach Joe Paterno? We'll look "In Depth" at that straight ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARLOW: All right. Now to a pretty remarkable achievement. A kid as old as my nephew, 8 years old, his name, Tyler Armstrong, recently climbed Mount Kilimanjaro. Not just for the thrill of it, for a pretty great cause. He took us along on his journey.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TYLER ARMSTRONG, CLIMBED MOUNT KILIMANJARO: The awesome Tyler.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The awesome Tyler.
ARMSTRONG (on camera): Well, I wanted to climb Mount Kilimanjaro because I found about Duchenne. I hike for muscular dystrophy to cure Duchenne. It's where boys cannot walk so I help them find a cure to help them walk again.
Mount Kilimanjaro -- I trained for a year. Every month, I'd climb a mountain for elevation.
It's 90,241 feet. It takes eight days, six days up and two days down.
We start about 9:00. Some days, we hike for three hours and some days we hike for six hours.
There's one part of the mountain where we had a rock climb.
The glaciers were really big and it was all ice.
On the mountain, you go slow and steady. That's what pulley pulley means.
(SINGING)
ARMSTRONG: The porters, they sang this song.
(SINGING)
ARMSTRONG: On the top, it was below 12. When we had warmers, like toe warmers, hand warmers, body heaters and lots of layers. My heart was pounding so fast so I had to take lots of breaks. I was all worked up. My legs couldn't move.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tyler.
ARMSTRONG: At the top, I felt like I wanted to turn around, but my dad said, don't turn around, we're going to make it.
Well, I was on the top of Africa. And I was super high and it was just amazing. I have done Mount Kilimanjaro.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How does it feel, buddy?
ARMSTRONG (on camera): Feels great. I could go again (ph).
(voice-over): I like climbing because I get to hang out with my dad and see nature and reach new heights.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARLOW: For that, 8-year-old Tyler Armstrong is certainly making his mark.
Well, imagine having to put your dishes in the bathtub because your apartment is too small to put them anywhere else. A tour of some really tiny and expensive apartments is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARLOW: All right. So you have heard about how small New York's apartments can be. Or maybe you're living in one of them. Well, now, the mayor of New York, Michael Bloomberg, wants to attract more people to the city by building what he's calling micro-apartments.
Before you think a 300-square foot home can't be lived in, take a look at what Richard Roth shows us about people living in spaces half that size. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Since New York City wants to build new, tiny apartments --
GENEVIEVE SHULER, MICRO-APARTMENT DWELLER: Hi.
ROTH (on camera): How big is your apartment?
(voice-over): -- I came calling in Greenwich Village to see how residents in shoe-box sized apartments survive.
SHULER: You have to duck under. But I'm lucky that I'm short.
ROTH: Genevieve Shuler has been living here for seven years.
SHULER: This apartment is about 105 square feet.
ROTH: That's much smaller than the micro-sized apartments the city would like to build. (CROSSTALK)
ROTH: Michael Bloomberg walked the floor plan of a potential 300- square foot apartment. He said it's critical to attracting young people, those priced out of the market.
MICHAEL BLOOMBERG, MAYOR OF NEW YORK: If you don't have the kind of housing that they need, they can't do that.
ROTH (on camera): I cannot stretch my arms out fully.
(voice-over): New Yorkers, like Arianne Gans, are renowned for overcoming challenges.
ARIANNE GANS, MICRO-APARTMENT DWELLER: This is annoying. This gets to be annoying but, again, I can adjust it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL RICHARDS, ACTOR: Manhattan can be quite pricy, even with $50,000 yen.
ROTH: Kramer adjusted in "Seinfeld" when Japanese visitors needed a place to live.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARDS: Night, (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Good night.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROTH: Future renters of micro-apartments might want to check out companies that transform furniture.
BOB BARTH, PRESIDENT, RESOURCE FURNITURE: I think that people have to be smarter and they have to get smarter furniture.
SHULER: So after I cook, I'll put my dishes in the tub and sort of close the shower.
ROTH (on camera): Whoa. After you cook, you put your dishes in the tub?
SHULER: Yes.
ROTH: That's where you clean them?
SHULER: Yes.
ROTH (voice-over): The rent New York's planned micro-apartments will be around $2,000. Not bad for New York. One new real estate report suggests the average Manhattan rent is nearly double that. And small apartments appeal to a growing singles population sensitive to high rents.
SHULER: There are times when it's challenging. But there are times when it is really easy.
ROTH (on camera): Do you mind if I sit on your bed because I can't stand.
(voice-over): Richard Roth, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARLOW: That's awesome.
What is next for Penn State football? Switching gears here. And also what happened to legendary Coach Joe Paterno's legacy? We'll have that conversation with Jon Wertheim of "Sports Illustrated." That's straight ahead. Remember, you can continue watching CNN when you're not home. You can watch it at work, on your computer or on your Smartphone. Go to CNN.com/tv.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARLOW: Well, this week's report by former FBI director, Louis Freeh, painted a very damning picture of Penn State leaders covering up and ignoring evidence that Jerry Sandusky was sexually abusing children.
Jon Wertheim is a senior investigative reporter for "Sports Illustrated" and he joins me from New York.
The current issue of "Sports Illustrated," "Where Are They Now," is out right now.
Jon, thank you for coming in. We appreciate it.
Let's talk just your biggest take away from this week's report. Does this make you think any differently than you did before?
JON WERTHEIM, SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT, SPORTS ILLUSTRATED: Well, this sort of made it all official. I think macro take away, this was as bad as everyone thought. And not only was this horrible acts but an active attempt to conceal. That was Louis Freeh's language. There was a cover-up, which people suspected.
I think the micro take-away is that Joe Paterno knew about the 1998 allegation, according to the Freeh report, which completely changes the tick tock, and sort of completely changes the narrative. When Mike McQueary, three or four years later, went to Paterno about the shower incident, Joe Paterno acted cavalierly, and knew the same guy had been accused several years earlier. That little bit of information completely -- it's a game changer. That little bit of information completely changes how the whole narrative on the school and how we should view Joe Paterno.
HARLOW: We'll talk about Joe Paterno's legacy later on in the hour. But now, I want to talk about what might happen to the existing football program, to the school, what the NCAA might do. So when they issue a report on this, the NCAA, we'll be looking for language that -- whether or not there's language used that says there was a lack of institutional control. That is the key, right? That is lingo from the NCAA, and whether or not there is going to be a so-called death penalty as a result of this. Explain that to our viewers.
WERTHEIM: Yes. The NCAA has the ability to invoke this death penalty. They have only done it five times before. Usually, it comes from violating NCAA rules or getting a competitive advantage. This is totally separate. I don't think anyone would deny there was a lack of institutional control. This is a criminal matter. This wasn't about giving recruits Corvettes or making too many texts to recruits. So it's an interesting position for the NCAA. If they don't bring the hammer down, the obvious response is, if Penn State doesn't get it, who will get it.
(CROSSTALK)
WERTHEIM: But I'm not sure this is the NCAA's jurisdiction. I'm ambivalent. I think there's a lot of collateral damage. There are five bad guys here. Jerry Sandusky is in jail, Joe Paterno is no longer with us, three administrators who are no longer at Penn State, so if there is a death penalty, who is going to be hurt? There's a lot of 19-year-old kids who were barely alive when this cover-up started. There's going to be a lot of small businesses, yes, we need to address this culture, yes, we want to see punishment, we all want to see deterrent, but I think there's got to be a more creative solution than a death penalty, which would also give the effect of martyring this program.
HARLOW: Give us a sense of what a death penalty could look like for the program. What are talking about, one season here?
WERTHEIM: Yes. A death penalty usually means -- one season, no football. Keep in mind, too, especially at a school like Penn State, football is the engine that drives the athletic department. There will be no football program most likely for a year and that would have really have a devastating effect on the whole athletic department.
HARLOW: Talk broader picture here. Is Penn State really an anomaly in terms of schools where the football program and the head coach have such power? And, by the way, when you talk about money, we should note that a lot of money that comes into the football program is in academics and many of the things at the school. You have to keep that in mind. Is Penn State alone in this in terms of the power wielded by the program?
WERTHEIM: Yes, that's an interesting question. The knee-jerk answer is no. There are other big-time programs. There are other autocratic coaches. But when I was at Penn State, covering the story, I was struck by the geographic insularity. And you have a figure like Joe Paterno, this towering figure who was there for decades and decades, I think that football was running the whole campus. Everyone that hears Penn State automatically associates it with football. There's economic ties, as you mentioned. But also, there's this geographic insularity. Miami has a big-time football program but it's in a major city and there's all sorts of (INAUDIBLE). This really was like, I really liken it once to Russian nesting dolls, where there was a layer of insularity within each other, and the fact that this was going on in the middle of Pennsylvania, where there wasn't the scrutiny there would be USC in Los Angeles and Florida or Miami and southern Florida. I think this contributed as well.
HARLOW: Yes. It's very interesting to watch this unfold, and very sad for the people having to go through this and feel the repercussions, the football program, as you said, the young kids. Absolutely.
Jon, don't go anywhere.
Up next, I'll bring L.Z. Granderson back into the conversation. We'll talk about Joe Paterno's legacy and then broaden it out to look how Americans judge public figures who fall from grace. That's coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARLOW: Let's talk more about Penn State now. Specifically, Joe Paterno and how we, as Americans, choose to remember our public figures.
Jon Wertheim is here, senior investigative reporter for "Sports Illustrated." And we are joined by L.Z. Granderson, a CNN contributor and senior writer for ESPN.
Guys, let's start with this first. Paterno was held up as an example of everything that was right in college sports, winning with integrity, academics being important, running what was thought to be a clean program, a real sports legend. And take a look at this, a mural featured Paterno with the halo over his head. Yesterday, the artist who painted that mural removed the halo. And the same artist removed Jerry Sandusky from the same mural earlier this year.
Jon, it just shows us how quickly things can change. And this is all in the wake of the Freeh report on what happened at Penn State. What do you think? What does Paterno get remembered for?
WERTHEIM: I think it's unquestionably for this. I think people will say his legacy has been completely shredded. I don't think it's shredded. I think it's been completely re-written. And in the face of what we now know and in the face of what Louis Freeh's report confirms, 400 and some-odd victories seem trivial. The way this -- really this was his last act in a lot of ways. This is not -- sometimes we see people have bad acts and have a long career where they can make up for it. That wasn't the case here.
And I think what you mentioned before that his whole reputation was predicated on this righteousness. So it wasn't as though this was a random act. This completely undercut what he stood for. I think this, like it or not -- Penn State -- this is his legacy now, unfortunately.
HARLOW: And, L.Z., the Paterno family has come out and they've been vocal in all of this, and they've said, look, Joe Paterno was not perfect, but he's human, and he came forward and spoke out more than anyone else has in this, in terms of those under fire right now. What do you think, L.Z.? Does he get remembered for all that he did right or does this carry him?
L.Z. GRANDERSON, SENIOR WRITER, ESPN & CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Unfortunately, for him, a lot of people in this country don't know what he did right. I know it seems as if -- obviously, we're in sports, and sports is our world. And for a lot of people, the first time they heard of Joe Paterno was from the Sandusky trial. So they only know this about him and that makes it difficult, and why his legacy will be defined by this case. It isn't because the win weren't significant or that he wasn't the person at Penn State. The Sandusky trial stretched so far beyond the realm of sports. It was in pop culture. It was in everyone's living room. And it defined who he was for a lot of people who didn't know Joe Paterno the coach, just Joe Paterno, the person who didn't talk about his assistant coach raping boys.
HARLOW: That's a very interesting point.
You know, over the past few days, his former competitor and close friend, former Florida State football coach, Bobby Bowden, was asked whether the statue outside of Beaver Stadium should come down. He said he thinks it should. The university has not made any decision.
But he was also asked about Paterno's legacy. And listen to this. You can hear the pain in his voice. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BOBBY BOWDEN, FORMER FLORIDA STATE FOOTBALL COACH & PATERNO FRIEND: You know what his legacy's going to be? It's going to be this. This is saying -- I used to warn my football players over and over, you be good, you be good, you do good, you set a good name, you get a good reputation. You can kill it in 15 minutes. You can kill it by one act. This is what's happened in Joe's situation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: Yes. So let's broaden this out, Jon, and let's talk about other public figures. First in sports, it had been at the center of controversy. I really want to know, and people were telling me on Twitter, you can't compare the Sandusky terrible acts to anyone else. But if you talk about Pete Rose, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Lance Armstrong, just the fact that, whether they're vindicated or not in the end, their names were tarnished and they were at the top of their game. What do you think when they look broader at sports and legacy?
WERTHEIM: Athletes are different than coaches. And I think that athletes, for better or worse, we don't expect them necessarily to be perfect humans. Obviously, taking steroids is not something to condone, but they're records and their home runs, and you can make a statistical case. When you're a coach, when you're a leader, especially Joe Paterno, whose whole image is predicated on morality and righteousness, and it's been just completely blown up by this. This cover-up, to me, is just what seals it. I think he's in a much worse spot. That's the question. He's in a much worse spot than a Lance Armstrong or a Barry Bonds.
HARLOW: At the same time, the point you guys made earlier about having time to do things after to make up, not only was this Paterno's worst moment, it was right near the end of his life. And this Freeh report came out after he died.
L.Z., talk about politics, talk about someone like President Clinton. Despite the Lewinsky scandal, he is still massively popular, adored by so many, and still many supported, or look at a Nixon and Watergate. What's your take, L.Z.? How much does it have to do with timing?
GRANDERSON: Well, a lot of it has to do with timing. But there's also the degree of what the scandal or controversy happens to be and what you just proposed that to. When it comes to President Clinton, had he run on a policy of family values, I'm a strong Christian man, don't you ever cheat on your wife, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, I think we would look at him and Monica Lewinsky differently than what we do now. That's because he didn't run on that platform. The same thing with Nixon. Part of the reason why Nixon is only remembered for Watergate was because of the type of persona he presented to the public prior to that scandal and, of course, I am not a crook and that whole sort of thing.
So I really think that in terms of the reason why it hurts Paterno so much is the same thing Jon's been talking about. The platform that he's had his persona based upon being a person of integrity.
And I just want make sure that we point out the fact that this isn't a single act. You know the Freeh Report said this was over a 14-year stretch. So you go beyond making a singular mistake to a conscious decision for over a decade and a half to have a cover-up and that really tarnishes the conversation.
President Clinton you can pretty much say he had a weak moment with a young lady in his White House but it's hard to describe that when you have 14 years of a cover up with Paterno.
HARLOW: Yes and you can't compare all of the -- you know all of these different things. But legacy, obviously, is key right now and it's the big focus.
Jon, L.Z., I appreciate it, thank you so much.
GRANDERSON: Hey thank you.
WERTHEIM: Thanks Poppy.
