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Nawaf Al-Fares Defected from Bashar al-Assad's Regime; Firefighters and Policemen have Reduced Paychecks in Pennsylvania; FBI Investigation of Lab Evidence; Cambodia Medical Mystery is Solved
Aired July 15, 2012 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
POPPY HARLOW, CNN HOST (voice-over): Going broke. From Wall Street to Main Street. Now, entire cities. The paychecks for firefighters and police in one town, now minimum wage.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a catastrophic blow. I need to provide for my family.
HARLOW: A legend falls. Can legacy ever be restored?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is really his legacy now, unfortunately.
HARLOW: Extreme drought. Half the U.S. now in a state of emergency. With crop prices already spiking, how much more will it cost to put food on the table?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're really not going to know the full extent of all of us until the cotton's picked and the beans and the kernels are counted.
HARLOW: Smart phones make calls, send e-mails and now you can set them to stun. It is going too far?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARLOW: Hello, everyone. I'm Poppy Harlow in tonight for Don Lemon. Let's get you up to speed on the day's biggest stories.
In Syria first, a senior government official with 34 years of service now says he's on the side of the rebel uprising. Nawaf al-Fares was Syria's ambassador to Iraq, and he's the highest ranking diplomat to defect. He says he can't be part of a dictatorship any longer. You'll hear him his in his own words in just a moment.
Plus, I just spoke with the long-time American ambassador to Syria. His reaction, our conversation coming up.
An Egyptian official says two Americans kidnapped on the Sinai Peninsula are unharmed and well-fed. Their families want to know when they will be freed. The son of one of the abducted American, the Reverend Michel Louis spoke to CNN's Randi Kaye about how the ordeal is taking a toll on the pastor's wife.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REVEREND JEAN OF KIDNAPPED U.S. PASTOR: It was all of a sudden and I just -- she even right now seems like a dream to her, a nightmare.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: Also, a huge portion of the United States being strangled by drought this hour, which is threatening everything from crops to battle. One thousand counties spanning 26 states are now considered drought disaster areas. Eventually you'll like little see the effects in higher food prices. Agriculture secretary Tom Vilsack says the expiration of some existing programs has deeply hurt the farmers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM VILSACK, AGRICULTURE SECRETARY: The USDA, the paramedic culture does not have the tools it once had to help people through this difficult time.
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HARLOW: We'll have more of that interview coming up.
And a video on facebook that showed the brutal beating of a 62-year- old has now led to murder charges. Chicago police charged a 16-year- old gang member with first degree murder in the death of Delfino Mora. The disabled man was collecting cans in an alley when he was attacked. A fellow gang member filmed the attack, put it on facebook, put it on the facebook wall of the suspect.
And police arrested NBA star Jason Kidd early today in south Hampton, New York. They say the newly signed New York Knicks was drunk and crashed his Cadillac into a telephone poll. Doctors treated him for minor injuries. Kidd signed a reported three-year, $9.5 million deal with the Knicks just on Thursday.
Well, the Syria conflict is now officially a civil war. That's from the international Red Cross today. Although U.N. peace keepers have been calling it that since last month. Sixteen months of that violent rebel uprising and the U.N. estimates more than 10,000 people, 10,000, have been killed in the fighting. Opposition groups say thousands more have died.
Also today, we learned that the treatment of the Syrian people by the regime prompted the highest ranking government defection thus far. Nawaf al-Fares was the Syrian ambassador to Iraq, until just a few days ago. Now, he has escaped the country. He is supporting Syrian rebels.
He spoke with our Ivan Watson.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NAWAF AL-FARES, NEWLY DEFECTED SYRIAN OFFICIAL (through translator): I served the Syrian resume for 34 years in many different positions. But after what happened in the last year, during the holy revolution, all of the killing, the massacres, the ref ewe deeps, I don't see how anyone can remain silent. So, I decided to end my relationship with this regime.
IVAN WATSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: What message would you like to send to Bashar Al-Assad and to your former colleagues in the Syrian government right now?
AL-FARES (through translator): My former colleagues, I ask them to join the people and leave this corrupt regime. There is still time. To Bashar al-Assad I say, you don't know history. Two wills cannot be defeated. The will of God and the will of the people. History will curse you for the crimes you committed in Syria.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: Well, earlier tonight, I spoke with the man who served two U.S. presidents as the American ambassador to Syria. I asked Ambassador Edward Djerejian what he thinks this defection says about the stability of Syria's leadership. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
EDWARD DJEREJIAN, FORMER US AMBASSADOR TO SYRIA (via phone): I think these are the beginning indications of the dissent within the Syrian government and regime, that is now beginning to surface. When you begin to have a high level defection like this, and also Manaf Tlass, the brigadier general, who was very close to the Assad family, it indicates that the divisions within the government are beginning to surface. And I think we can anticipate more defections in future.
HARLOW: You do?
DJEREJIAN: When defections like this begin to occur, the political perception that the regime is being weakened from within is very important. And that can take on a momentum of its own. So, it's not so much the importance of one or two or three people defecting, no matter how ranking they are. But it's the growing perception that the divisions within the regime are coming to the fore and the regime is beginning to weaken from within.
HARLOW: He is calling for military intervention from the international community. He said that Assad and his regime will not go down without force. Do you see this as a clear message from him to the international community that military intervention needs to happen?
DJEREJIAN: Well, I think his judgment that the regime at the end of the day will not go down without force is probably accurate, because there's just been too much blood spilled in the streets of Syria. I think the hard core of the regime, which is the Alawite political leadership, the military intelligence, the security apparatus and those elite in the dawn Alawite community that have been closely identified with the regime, I think, at the end of the day, there has just been too much ravaging inside the country for there to be a peaceful moment.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARLOW: Very interesting insight from a man who knows the country and its leaders very well.
Well, moving on, after dismissing the idea again and again, could Condoleezza Rice be up for Mitt Romney's V.P. slot? What do you think? We're going to talk about that next. And this --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: Extreme drought. Half of the U.S. now in a state of emergency. With crop prices already spiking, how much more will it cost to put food on the table.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're really not going to know the full extent of all of this until the cotton's picks and the beans and the kernels are counted.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARLOW: We told you a little earlier about that massive drought across the United States. If you are worried about what it means for you, is it going to drive up your food prices, here is what you need to know.
It likely it would not grab a food crisis until late this year, maybe next year. But make no mistake, with the drought spreading, it is going to eventually affect what we all pay for groceries.
Here's more of Candy Crowley's interview with agriculture secretary tom Vilsack.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
VILSACK: We're really not going to know the full extent of all of this until the cotton's picked and the beans and the kernels are counted. Clearly, our yields are going to be down. We'll probably see less in terms of crop production. But we're going to be able to meet the food needs of the country. We're still going to be able to export, we are still going to be utilize crop residue to produce energy, all of which is important for rural America. We have a momentum going in rural America.
The real challenge for us, though, is that the USDA, department of agriculture, does not have the tools it once had to help people through this difficult time. When the disaster programs of the 2008 farm bill expired on September 30th last year, it left us with very little option in terms of being able to provide help to these folks. That's why it's just imperative that the house leadership get the food farm and jobs bill that went through the house committee and get it voted on before September 30th, so we can provide additional help and assistance to these folks.
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: We see in terms of crop price increases, corn up almost 17 percent, soy 37 percent, wheat is up 29 percent. That is bound to have an effect on food supply, at some level. And what we're talking about here, as you well know, coming from Iowa, is meat, eggs, poultry, milk. Do you expect prices on those products to go up in the grocery store?
VILSACK: Here's the interesting thing about this, and it gives me an opportunity to point out how little of that grocery store dollar the farmers and ranchers actually get. Fourteen cents of every food dollar goes in the pocket of a farmer/rancher. So, while these commodity prices will likely increase, it will have an marginal impact on food prices. What really drives food prices are energy costs.
CROWLEY: It's my understanding Mr. Secretary that prices on a lot of things from cereal to soft drinks and meat prices are already up in some cases by 30 percent. That has nothing to do with the drought?
VILSACK: They shouldn't be, because those -- the prices and the impact of a drought probably will not likely be seen in the grocery aisles until later next year, 2013. Folks are using this opportunity to raise prices inappropriately, shame on them.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARLOW: Well, the race for the White House now, which has been dominated for days as you've well seen, by questions about Mitt Romney's tenure at Bain Capital. Romney insists the Obama campaign attacks have crossed the line, especially and Obama aide's reference to legal filings with the SEC and even pointing to a potential felony. Romney says the president should rein in his staff and apologize. The president tells CNN affiliate WAVY that is not going to happen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: No, we won't be apologizing. And I don't -- sometimes these games are played during political campaigns. Understand what the issue is here. Mr. Romney claims that he's Mr. Fix-it for the economy, because of his business experience. And so, I think voters entirely legitimately want to know, well, what exactly was that business experience?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: OK, following the presidential election, Condi Rice keeps saying she doesn't want to be vice president, but her name just keeps coming up.
Earlier tonight, I spoke with CNN contributors Will Cain and Lz Granderson offered - Will offered plenty of reason why he thinks Rice will most certainly not be on the Romney ticket.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILL CAIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: We can just run through the litany of reasons quickly why Condi Rice doesn't make sense to be the V.P. candidate. But the most important of which is, she is pro-choice. And that is somewhat of a deal killer for any Republican running for national office especially at the vice presidential level.
What more, as you just said, Poppy, she doesn't want to be vice president. So, it's a nonstarter. And the timing of it is obvious, because changing the subject, let's not talk about Bain. But by the way, conversation was also a subject changer from the jobs report a week ago. So, let's just be fair. We're changing subjects away from the things that hold real substance.
LZ GRANDERSON, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Those two are at least related though. At least, the Bain and the job importance, so at least they are related because Mitt Romney, of course, is running on the fact he can create more jobs. So, when the job report comes out, those two makes sense to me. The Condi conversation doesn't make sense.
HARLOW: Lz, let's talk about some other popular candidates because when you look at Condi Rice, she's also very tied to the Bush administration, and, you know, it's not likely that Romney wants to be very associated with things that Condi was very involved in, in terms of the invasion of Iraq, weapons of mass destruction, et cetera, obviously the abortion issue is huge here.
But also, let's talk about some other possible running mates, OK? Rob Portman of Ohio, what about Bob McDonald of Virginia, the two key states here. What do you think, Lz, of either of those names?
GRANDERSON: I've been having a really difficult time. You know, when I saw the question, I had a difficult time trying to find somebody that made sense to me. And that's because Mitt Romney's problem isn't trying to woo conservatives. It's trying to woo the independents. And I don't think adding another conservative state like Virginia is going to help him. I mean, it's not as if conservatives are going to say, well, if he doesn't pick the right V.P., we're going to vote for President Obama.
What he needs to do is communicate to the independents that he's not as crazy as s some of the extremists in his base. And that requires in the pick of V.P. candidate who may disagree with a lot of social issues.
You know personally, I really like Mike Bloomberg. Mike Bloomberg has even said that he thinks he would run the country better than President Obama. The problem is, he disagrees with everything on the social issues. And this has been the problem with Mitt Romney (INAUDIBLE).
HARLOW: Will, you think Portman would me - you told me in the break, sort of the ideal choice.
CAIN: That's right. I think Lz is applying the wrong analysis here. I don't think he looks at what the V.P. is going to bring. I actually think what you do and what Rob Portman does is double down on bland. Bland is exactly what Mitt Romney needs to won.
HARLOW: Why double down on bland? Why, Will?
CAIN: Because they want this election to be about Barack Obama, President Barack Obama. This election needs to be a referendum on the job President Obama has done over the last four years. You don't need to give the voters something to vote for. You just want them to vote against Barack Obama. I know a lot of people say the opposite, but that's the truth. Mitt Romney might just --
HARLOW: Will, how do you energize voters with that strategy?
CAIN: I think Barack Obama's energized them.
HARLOW: How does Mitt Romney and a Portman ticket energize voters if you say you are doubling down on bland?
CAIN: Yes. I'm saying I think Barack Obama has energized them. Those that will vote, they will vote against Barack Obama.
GRANDERSON: But those people are going to vote against President Obama regardless. He's not going to energize independent who are looking for solutions and answers. He's just saying he is going to energize people that already despise him. That doesn't help his ticket at all.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARLOW: OK, from politics to smart phones, this thing, you know, your phone? It can make calls, send e-mails, play videos, but a new iPhone add-on promises self-defense. We're not kidding. Can you guess what it does? Is it going to fend off evil doers with flames? Electric shocks? Love? That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARLOW: Well, Startup Company is promising a unique new feature for your iPhone. You've got to hear this one, folks. I talked earlier about it tonight with tech pro John Abell from Reuters.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HARLOW: Turning an iPhone case into a stun gun. Apparently this army reservist has done just that. What has he come up with?
JOHN ABELL, COLUMNIST, REUTERS MEDIAFILE: Well, apparently, he was attacked in his home and thought that the answer to his problems would be to create a cover for the iPhone, which is the number one hand set in the world, which also converts into a taser, a stun gun.
HARLOW: Wow.
ABELL: He's -- he's trying to raise money on one of the crowd funding sites called Indy Go Go. It's not doing that great. He's got $12,000 and about 13 days and his funding request is 100 grand but we'll -- the rules are different, he'll get to keep the money he gets -- gets pledged to him. And he's going to fill orders. You know, we talk about, there's an app for that and now there's a cover for this. I guess.
HARLOW: I mean, I guess. I wonder if the company, you know Taser, is going to be interested in this technology at all.
ABELL: Well, there are lots of stun gun type things, but literally, this has to be the first thing that actually attaches to your phone. And the idea is you always have your phone. So, there's that theory.
HARLOW: OK, all right, so, this has a kick, I guess. I want to read you what the inventor told us. He said "well, I knew that if I was going to put this thing out in the world, I had to test it on myself. That's what I did." Then he added, he is only a guy with the U.S. military training to what I supposed "it hurts." And we're assuming that this is a pretty tough guy. So --
ABELL: Well, you know, 650,000 volts, or whatever it is. Of course, in the funding video, there isn't a piece of him actually getting stunned by this. So, we're going to have to take his word for it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARLOW: Now, to the big stories ahead in the news this week. From the White House to Wall Street, our correspondents tell you what you need to know ahead of Monday morning.
We begin with the president's campaign plans for the week.
ATHENA JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Athena Jones at the White House.
In another sign that the campaign season is heating up, President Obama visits two battleground states this week. She'll speak in Cincinnati, Ohio on Monday and he spends Thursday and Friday traveling across Florida, visiting four cities including Orlando in a region that was central to his 2008 victory in the state. He'll also hit the red state of Texas on Tuesday, for fund raisers in San Antonio and Austin.
PAUL STEINHAUSER, CNN POLITICAL EDITOR: I'm Paul Steinhauser at the CNN political desk.
After fund-raising Monday in Mississippi and Louisiana, Mitt Romney heads Tuesday to Pennsylvania and Wednesday to Ohio, both considered important swing states in the race for the White House.
ALISON KOSIK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Alison Kosik in New York.
On the heels of new details of JPMorgan's massive trading loss and better than expected profits, Citigroup, Goldman Sachs, Bank of America and Morgan Stanley will report earnings.
We'll also hear from heavy hitters on the Dow like American express, Coca-Cola and Verizon, and tech giants Microsoft, Google, IBM and Intel.
Also on Wall Street's radar, Federal Reserve chairman Bernanke will testify on Capitol Hill.
And on the economic calendar, we'll get son insight into the struggling housing market and retail sales.
A.J. HAMMER, HLN HOST, SHOWBIZ TONIGHT: I'm "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT" A.J. Hammer. Here's what we're watching this week, more continuing coverage of Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes and how they are splitting their time with their daughter Suri.
And, of course, you remember the original karate kid, Ralph Macho, right? Well, he will be joining me right here on "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT." We're going to talk about his brand new TV project in another must-see showbiz newsmaker interview.
HARLOW: All right, thank you, A.J. Well, a mystery illness that killed dozens of children is no longer a mystery.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta explains how two doctors teamed up to crack the case in Cambodia and save untold lives. That's next.
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DON LEMON, CNN HOST: You don't have to be in front of a television to watch CNN. You can do what is do. You can stay connected, you can do it on your cell phone or you can do it from your computer at work. Just go to CNN.com/TV.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARLOW: We want to update you on a story we told you about this time last week.
Dozens of children in Cambodia dying from a mystery illness. It isn't a mystery anymore, though, thanks to two French doctors that are living there.
Our Dr. Sanjay Gupta explains how they cracked the case.
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DOCTOR SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The only thing doctors knew for sure was when the children arrived at the hospital, they were dying. And fast. A fever, convulsions. And encephalitis. And then, the lungs, completely destroyed.
Since the end of April, doctors in Cambodia struggled with a medical mystery. And that mystery was ultimately solved right over here. Blood samples from those sick and dying children were eventually brought to this laboratory, analyzed as you see right over there and eventually they concluded that there were several different pathogens. Those are enterovirus 71, (INAUDIBLE) and also Dengue. And all of those infections were made worse by the use of steroids.
To crack this case, the lab had to work backyards. First, eliminate known viruses, like avian flu, sars, amoeba.
DOCTOR ARNAUD TARANTOLA, EPIDEMIOLOGIST: The first thing that goes through your head is, to try to determine whether this is one of the usual suspects that you haven't detected before. If it is, has it mutated or changed in such a way that it causes more severe disease? Or is it something completely new?
GUPTA: Epidemiologist, Dr. Anaud Tarantola, and virologist, Dr. Phillipe Buchy, two doctors, French, living in Cambodia, solved the mystery.
One of the things that we heard several times now from the World Health Organization is, no steroids should be used. They seem to say that steroids made this problem worse.
TARANTOLA: When you have a dying child, you try to use what you have. And they were right to try that. Now, whether or not it helps remains to be determined.
GUPTA: I don't want to b belabor this point but they really seemed to indicate that it hurt. That these infections, a lot of times, they can be a problem but they're not particularly dangerous. But something pushes them over the top. And they thought that the steroids seemed to be a common denominator.
TARANTOLA: From the cases that we reviewed, almost all of the children died and almost all of them had steroids.
GUPTA: Steroids can be a potent anti-inflammatory. But when given to children with aggressive infections, steroids can also suppress the body's own immune system, allowing the infection to become worse.
As was the case with enterovirus-71, also called EV71.
You hear a lot about avian flu. EV71, as far as they could tell, really had not been in Cambodia before, for sure. Why does it suddenly appear like this and why does it appear with such a vengeance?
TARANTOLA: It looks like this has emerged strongly, probably because it had not circulated to the same, with the same intensity in the past years.
GUPTA: It's believed that a slight variation in the EV71 made the virus stronger. And the steroids made the bodies resistance even weaker. So, case closed? It sounds like the case is closed now, from your standpoint?
DOCTOR PHILLIPE BUCHY, VIROLOGIST: Yes, I think we can close the case.
GUPTA: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, c CNN, Cambodia.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARLOW: How do we Americans view public figures when they fall from grace? Do we judge them on their lifetime work or the reason for their fall? That discussion, coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARLOW: Half past the hour now. Let's take a look at the top stories of the day.
A very senior Syrian official breaks ranks with Damascus and now supports the rebels. This man, the one-time Syrian ambassador to Iraq. He says president Bashar al-Assad is a dictator who rules Syria by decree and the only solution to the conflict is international military intervention.
Meantime, Florida's lieutenant governor is trying to squash a nasty allegation a former female staffer alleges Jennifer Carroll had an inappropriate sexual relationship with her. Carroll calls the allegations outland dish. The staffer already faces charges of making an illegal reporting in the capital.
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LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR JENNIFER CARROLL (R), FLORIDA: I haven't done anything wrong. It's a total lie. Immediately, I become an individual that's now accused and in America, we are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty and now I'm guilty until proven innocent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: Meantime, Robert Kennedy Junior's estranged wife was buried again today. The family moved Mary Kennedy's body to a new grave site in the same cemetery on Cape Cod. They also bought 50 surrounding plots, which will be reserved for her six children. Mary Kennedy as you recall hanged herself in may after battling depression for much of her life.
Well, can a tarnished legacy ever recover? Penn State coach Joe Paterno was held up as the example of everything that was right in college sports. Winning with integrity. Academics, running a clean football program. A true sports legend.
Now look at this. It is a mural near Penn State that featured Paterno with a halo over his head. Yesterday, the artist that painted that mural removed the halo. That same artist, removed Jerry Sandusky from the same mural earlier this year.
And earlier tonight, I spoke with Jon Wertheim from "Sports Illustrated" and Lz Granderson, a CNN contributors and senior writer for ESPN. And I asked John for his thoughts on that Penn State report released just a few days ago and what the findings are going to meet for Joe Paterno's legacy?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JON WERTHEIM, SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, SPORTS ILLUSTRATED: People said, oh, his legacy has been completely shredded. I don't even think it's shredded. I think it's been completely rewritten. And in the face of what we know, in the face of what Louis Freeh's report confirms, 400-some odd victories seem really kind of trivial. And I think, you know, the way this is really his last act in a lot of ways. I mean, this is not something - sometime we see people have bad acts and then have a long career where they can make up for it. That's not the case here. And I think what you mentioned before this, his whole reputation was predicated on this righteousness.
So, it wasn't as though this was a random bad act. And this completely undercut what he is good for. I think this, like it or not, you know Penn State, this is really his legacy now, unfortunately.
HARLOW: You know -- and Lz, Paterno's family has come out and they've pretty vocal on all these. And they said, look, Joe Paterno was not perfect but he's human and he came forward and spoke out more, you know, than anyone else has in this in terms of those under fire right now. What do you think, Lz? Does he get remembered for all he did right or does this carry him?
GRANDERSON: Well, unfortunately for him, a lot of people in this country don't know what he did right. You know, I know it seems as if -- I obviously, we're in sports, you know, sports is our world, but for a lot of people, the first time they heard of Joe Paterno was from the Sandusky trial.
And so, they only know this about him. And that's what makes this difficult and why his legacy will be defined by this case. It isn't because of the wrench Will Smith, you know. he wasn't a good person at Penn State is that, in Sandusky trial stretched so far beyond the realm of sports. It went to pop culture. It was in everyone's living room. So, I just defined who he was for a lot of people who didn't know Joe Paterno, the coach. Just Joe Paterno, the person who did talk about his assistant coach raping boys.
HARLOW: That's a very interesting point. You know, over the past few days, his former competitor and also very close friend, former Florida state football Coach Bobby Bowden was asked about Paterno's legacy and he was asked if that statue outside of beaver stadium should come down, he said he thinks it should. The university has not made a decision. But he was also asked about Paterno's legacy. Listen to this. You can really hear the pain in his voice. Take a listen.
BOBBY BOWDEN, FORMER FLORIDA STATE FOOTBALL COACH: You know what his legacy's going to be. It's going to be this. Now, this is -- I used to warn my football players over and over. You be good, you be good, you be good, you set a good name, you get a good reputation, you can kill it in 15 minutes. You can kill it by one act. This is what's happened to -- in Joe's situation.
HARLOW: Yes. You know, so, let's broaden this out, Jon, and Let' talk about other public figures first in sports that have been in the center of controversy.
Now, I really want to know, people are telling me on twitter, you can't compare the Sandusky terrible acts to anyone else, but if you talk about Pete Rose, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Lance Armstrong, just the fact that, you know whether they are vindicated or not, their names were tarnished and they were at the top of their game. What do you think when you look broader at sports and legacy? WERTHEIM: Yes, I mean, I think athletes are a little different than coaches, and I think that athletes, for better or worse, we don't expect them necessarily to be perfect. Obviously, taking steroids is not something to condone, but the records and the home runs and you can make a statistical case. I think when you are a coach, when you are a leader, especially Joe Paterno, whose whole image is predicated again on morality and righteousness, and it's been just completely blown up by this. Not just this sort of - I mean, this cover up, really to me, is what seals it. I think, you know, he's in a much worse spot. That's the question, and I think he is in a much worse spot than a Lance Armstrong or Barry Bonds.
HARLOW: And at the same time, the point you guys made earlier, about having time to do things after to make up. Not only was this Paterno's worst moment, it was really right near the end of his life and this report came out after he died.
Lz, let's talk politics, talk about someone like president Clinton, despite the Lewinsky scandal, he's still massively popular. You know, adored by so many. Still very support d. Or look at a Nixon and Watergate. So, what was your take Lz. And how much does it have to do with timing?
GRANDERSON: Well, a lot of it has to do with timing. But it's the degree of what the scandal or controversy happens to be. And what you just proposed that to. When it comes to President Clinton, had he run on a policy of family values, I'm a strong Christian man, don't you ever cheat on your wife, blah, blah, blah, blah. I think we would look at him and Monica Lewinsky a little differently than what we do now. That's because he didn't run on that type of platform.
The same thing with Nixon. Part of the reason why Nixon is only remembered for Watergate is because of the type of Persona he presented to the public prior to that scandal. And then, of course, I'm not a crook and that whole sort of thing.
So, I really think that in terms of the reason why it hurts Paterno so much is the same thing Jon's been talking about. The platform that he's had his Persona based upon, being a person of integrity. And I just want to make sure that we point out the fact, this isn't a single act. You know, the Freeh report says this was over 14 years. So, you go beyond making a singular mistake to a consciousness for over a decade and a half to have a cover up. And that really tarnishes the conversation.
President Clinton, you can pretty much say he had a weak moment with a young lady in his White House. But it's hard to describe that when you have 14 years of a cover up with Paterno.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARLOW: Well, big thanks to Jon Wertheim of "Sports Illustrated" and also CNN contributor, Lz Granderson for joining me earlier tonight for that conversation.
Meantime, thousands of criminal convictions are right now under government review because the lab work results might be flawed. Coming up, my conversation with a former FBI special agent about how this happened.
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HARLOW: Well, the FBI and the justice department have recently launched an undertaking like nothing they have ever done before. This is really interesting. They're reviewing thousands of criminal cases, trying to find out if defendants were wrongly convicted and wrongly thrown in jail, based on faulty forensic analysis.
I talked with a former FBI special agent, Harold Copus about that, and how he helped exonerate two men. Take a listen.
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HAROLD COPUS, FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT: It was unbelievable, the number of people, the amount of time and the effort and the obstacles that you run into. So, if you think about the FBI, were to do this, they would do this in their field offices, I suspect they would create task forces, which would mean an FBI agent and then some officers from local law enforcement. That's about the only way it can be done and quite frankly, maybe you can only do one, two cases a year.
HARLOW: Now, I know that you left the FBI about 15 years ago. But I want to play something interesting that was reported in the "Washington Post" in April. They reported that justice officials had known for years about questionable forensic evidence or testimony in some trials, but they didn't take a new look at the cases at that time. They didn't notify the defendants or their attorneys about possible problems with the evidence. And I wonder, Harold, did your reaction to that. Did anything like that occur while you were working at the FBI that you know of?
COPUS: Well, you know, I did and I would venture to say that most of the agents would not know. If that happens, that sounds bad on the surface. We need to get that corrected.
I will tell you that me and most of the agents I have worked with would go out of their way to work real hard to make sure that the person that was potentially going to be indicted, arrested and hopefully convicted, that it was a righteous case, meaning that there was no doubt that that person was guilty. We're not talking 99 percent or some 99.9 percent. It has to be up 100. If it's not 100 percent, it's not worth going. The justice system cannot be allowed to be broken that way.
HARLOW: You know, I think what's really interesting is, in the cases that you dealt with that exonerated these men, you said one of the biggest challenges was dealing with families on both sides, re-opening that wound that the families thought was settled on both sides. Explain.
COPUS: Well, really, you know, there are always going to be least the minimum of two victims. You've got, if someone wrongfully goes to jail, that is. You have the person that is in jail that is victim, and you have all the family members of the person in these cases they were murdered. But you have every one of those people, that extended family, they think, the family does, that justice has been served. And then all of a sudden, something comes and says we're going to turn this cart upside down and we're going to shake it up and sometimes they're going to walk away and after all this time has passed, how do we find this person who caused this crime, that caused my loved to maybe die.
HARLOW: Right.
COPUS: Well, that's very unsettled.
HARLOW: That also brings up the issue of statute of limitation, and whether or not, if it is indeed leaning towards another person, if they are exonerated if they can even be tried depending on the crime.
COPUS: It does and it requires in what I said a lot amount of time. It's not just investigative time. It is attorney time and research. But just you have to go is you have to go back in there and hopefully uncover some evidence that will then allow the attorneys to create an appeal on new evidence. A difficult task.
HARLOW: Absolutely. Harold, thank you for joining us tonight, we appreciate it.
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HARLOW: Going broke. From Wall Street to main street. Now, entire cities. The paychecks for firefighters and police in one town, now minimum wage.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a catastrophic blow. I need to provide for my family.
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HARLOW: Well, just this week, San Bernardino, California, declared bankruptcy, just weeks after Stockton, California, did the same thing. And in Scranton, Pennsylvania, police and fire fighters are now getting paid minimum wage, $7.25 an hour.
So, why are some of the U.S.'s big cities right on the edge of financial disaster? I spoke with economist Peter Navarro and financial consultant in Scranton Gary Lewis.
Professor Navarro told me the root of the problem is U.S. trade policy.
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PETER NAVARRO, PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA-IRVINE: The best jobs program is trade reform with China. What the heck does China have to do with Scranton and San Bernardino? Everything. They stole our jobs. We shot down 50,000 factories over the past ten years when we open trade with China. We lost six million manufacturing jobs. We got 25 million people, Poppy, in this country, who are underemployed, not earning a decent wage.
And the reason why is, we don't make stuff anymore. We consume more than we make. And the tragedy of these cities is that they can't do anything. The only thing they can do is basically penalize people and cut their wages or cut pensions or make the bondholders take a haircut. That's the only thing they can do. And bankruptcy is a tool to do that.
HARLOW: Let's talk Gary. I mean, Scranton is not in bankruptcy yet. Would a bankruptcy filing really allow Scranton to pay police officers, firefighters more than minimum wage or is it going to obscure a bigger problem here, because it's going to raise the cost of borrowing significantly, it's going to tax the Muni bonds, which is going to affect investors. It is going to affect the people there.
GARY LEWIS, CONSULTANT, SCRANTON RESIDENT: But the cities shouldn't be doing the borrowing it has done. We got $100 million in total outstanding debt. We got $55 million in authority the other week, though the authority has already defaulted on.
The problem and the reason that we can't pay our public servants is because we're paying eight to $10 million a year in basically, you know, debt service costs. We need to get that under control. We need to restructure the debt. We need to address the pensions which are becoming a massive problem and are a massive expense for the city. I mean, we can't just cut the salaries of our employees and say that's saves us money. Work can actually obligated to pay them less money. They will win that lawsuit.
HARLOW: You know, it's an interesting thing --
NAVARRO: You know what's funny here, Poppy, it sounds like he's talking about the federal government, because it's the same problem. We have got an economy that's not performing and so, we can't pay our bills, and nobody gets it.
So, if it's in Scranton, you think it's a Scranton problem. If you're in San Bernardino, you think it's a San Bernardino problem. But you go across America, and our cities are dying. Our cities are dying because our economy is dying. And our economy is dying because we don't make staff.
We have got to get our manufacturing jobs back. And that's why we have presidential election. I want to hear Obama. I want to hear Romney talk about how we get the jobs back in Scranton, back to San Bernardino and everywhere in between.
HARLOW: Reality is, the manufacturing jobs in this country has loss is in the millions, if you look just in the last decade loan. All those are not coming back.
NAVARRO: Into million, Poppy.
HARLOW: Absolutely.
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NAVARRO: Why do you say that those jobs aren't coming back? The problem we have is --
HARLOW: Because I talked to the heads of big, big companies, General Electric and others that have brought some of those jobs back here, but a lot of them aren't coming back, and Steve Jobs says the same thing with apple.
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NAVARRO: General Electric is a big part of the problem, they offshore to China, they make a bunch of money over there and they take their jobs out of Schenectady, they take them out of familiar and they tell you that we can never give them back.
HARLOW: Professor, I want to give Gary the last word. Gary go ahead, and I just want to preface it by saying it's interesting, you know, the "L.A. Times," the mayor of Vallejo, California told the "the L.A. Times," Vallejo filed for bankruptcy in 2008. He told "the L.A. Times" it was a bad idea, costing 10 million in legal, didn't cut their borrowing - didn't cut many of their costs significantly and he said it hurt their reputation. So, that's something to think about too, right Gary?
LEWIS: It absolutely is, but if you look at the problem we have, we simply can't keep going the way we are. We need to do something to address the structural deficit. And creating jobs is a great idea. It is not something that happens overnight. If we do this correctly, if we have a properly planned bankruptcy, we can reduce our debt service, we can reduce the Muni compensation, we can fund our pensions, we can cut the fed, and we get this city operating.
Scranton has an $86 million budget and $56 million of tax revenue. There's no reason we should have that kind of a gap. We need to do something immediately, right now, at the local level and bankruptcy does that.
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HARLOW: Well, when they sent up voyager, all the way back in 1977, you have to wonder if anyone at NASA ever thought we'd be talking about this. "Voyager" is about to go where no one and nothing ever made by us has ever gone before. That's next.
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HARLOW: Well, tonight in Sunday night mysteries, we reach the window to the rest of the universe, literally. Our solar system, that vast collection of planets and debris held together by the pull of the sun, it's all mankind has ever known. But it looks like that is about to change. Here's why. In 1977, NASA scientists launched the spacecraft "Voyager I." It's job was to take photos and send them back to earth. First, it flew past Mars, then it left Jupiter, Saturn, then Uranus in the dust. And now, more than three decade, and 11 billion miles later, it is still going. And NASA says very soon, possibly in the next few months, "Voyager I" will become the first manmade object to leave the sun's gravitational pull and, thus, become the first manmade object to ever leave the solar system.
What's it going to find? Well, we may not get photos back. Scientists' best guess is that the interstellar space is a cold dense vacuum. Whatever it is, consider this. It was just about 500 years ago that most of us believe the earth was flat and that the planet circled us. Now, hopefully we'll find out firsthand how much more may actually be out there.
And that is tonight's real Sunday night mystery.
And, a short time ago, Don Lemon spoke with a young woman who shared painful memories about when she was a victim of bullying taunted by other girls. Her name is Elizabeth. She relived those painful moments on national television, talking with Don, hoping that it might help other bullying victims.
But then, the unexpected happened. Here is an e-mail that we got from Elizabeth's mother. And she wrote in to us. She said, "many good things have come from the interview. One being that my daughter's bullies who posted their practical joke of her on facebook saw the show on CNN and called her to apologize." Very good to hear. We are happy for Elizabeth.
That will do it for us tonight. Thank you all for joining us. My good friend, Don Lemon back here next weekend.
