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World Pressure Grows Against Putin on MH-17; Ukraine President Lashes Out; Russian News Reports Outrageous Stories on MH-17.

Aired July 21, 2014 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Bottom of the hour. You are watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

We are now hearing that pro-Russian rebels will be handing over those black boxes to Malaysia in the coming minutes. This news confirming the suspicion surrounding these pictures which appear to show at least one of those black box recorders, these orange pieces of, you know, machinery here being taken by these pro-Russian rebels. The question now, were they tampered with in the meantime.

For its part, the Kremlin denying it gave the separatists anti aircraft missiles. It says a Ukrainian war plane flew very near the Malaysian airliner before the civilian plane came down.

But as certainty grows about Russia's involvement in arming the rebels in eastern Ukraine, so does world pressure for President Vladimir Putin to do the right thing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The burden now is on Russia to insist that the separatists stop tampering with the evidence, grant investigators, who are already on the ground immediate, full and unimpeded access to the crash site.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let me bring in Republican Congressman from New York, Peter King. He's chairman of the House Subcommittee on Counterterrorism and Intelligence, as well as a member of the Homeland Security Committee.

Congressman, welcome. Nice to see you.

REP. PETER KING, (R), NEW YORK: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: President Obama, you heard him, he said the burden is on Russia. We know Vladimir Putin isn't bowing to U.S. pressure or sanctions, at least thus far. My question to you, where is the line, and maybe more importantly, who needs to draw the line for Putin to pay attention?

KING: I think it's essential that all the western allies working together, but especially the United States has to play the leadership role in galvanizing that effort against Putin. We can't just treat this as dispute over fishing rights or, you know, some mild territorial dispute. We're talking here about really mass murder. And the fact that Putin and it's clear, I think that Putin and the Russians made this technology, this weaponry available to and gave it to the Ukrainian separatists, most likely had to train them in it. You have to be responsible for what happens after that. I think we should take very severe economic action and also symbolic action, like cutting off air flights landing rights in the United States and Europe. Making every effort to keep them from hosting the next World Cup in 2016 and going after their personal assets.

BALDWIN: I hear you say the U.S. needs to take the lead, and President Obama. How do you get other Western allies on board?

KING; Well, I give David Cameron, the British prime minister, a lot of credit for the statement he made yesterday, extremely critical of Putin and also very critical of his fellow European leaders for not taking strong enough action. And the fact that so many Europeans were killed on this plane and the flight emanated from Europe, that should be a galvanizing moment. And it should be up to the president working with David Cameron to mobilize that support.

BALDWIN: Let's talk about Vladimir Putin the man. You know about the famous exchange between presidents George W. Bush with Putin, looked into his eyes and said he seemed like a pretty straight-forward guy. President Bush said he was able to "get a sense of his soul," was the quote.

Let me contrast that with an article that's just come out in the "New Yorker" magazine where Vice President Joe Biden talks in his exchange with Putin in 2011 at the Kremlin, and this is what Vice President Biden describes it as, "I was this close to him. Biden held his nose a few inches from his nose. I said, Mr. Prime Minister, I'm looking into your eyes and I don't think you have a soul. And he looked back at me and he smiled and he said, we understand one another."

Congressman, two very different viewpoints. What's your take?

KING: Well, you know, they were more than 10 years apart. When President Bush made those remarks to Putin, Putin had just been briefly in office, Russia was still an emerging democracy. And President Bush wanted to make every effort to establish good relations with Putin. In fact, on September 11th, Putin was extremely helpful to the United States. He made one of the first phone calls to President Bush. And obviously, as things went object, President Bush realized that Putin cannot be trusted. So I think it's a little bit cute of Joe Biden 10, 12, years later to come in and try to take a cheap --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Cute, huh?

KING: Yeah, cute, to take a cheap shot at President Bush. We can spend the rest of the hour talking about President Biden's (sic) mistakes. I'm not going to play that game.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: We won't do that. We will leave it there.

(LAUGHTER)

Let's stay on point with the investigation, Congressman. We know investigators are trying to figure out Russian involvement, specifically providing the weapon, whether they pulled the trigger, whether they called the shot. And so as the investigation finds that the Russians were, in fact, at the site, how do you think that will change things? How will that ultimately change U.S.-Russian policy?

KING: It probably depends on the degree. But I don't want to put that much emphasis on the investigation. I think we know enough already to know that Russia was heavily involved.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Don't you think the Russians pulled the trigger?

KING: I was just going to say, the only real difference, if we can show there was a Russian special operator there or some undercover Russian actually working there, yes, that would bring it to a higher degree. But even if we don't find that, it's still a severe liability. But having said that, obviously we find out there was actually a Russian military person or a Russian official at the scene, absolutely, it would make it even worse, yes.

BALDWIN: Congressman Peter King, thank you for your time. Appreciate it, sir.

KING: Brooke, thank you.

BALDWIN: Russian President Vladimir Putin is not used to people standing up to him. How does he feel about two women telling him it's time to "man up"? Two American women. We'll talk about that.

Also ahead, the truth about flight 17 is very, very different from what many Russians in Russia are hearing about this crash. Like a report that the plane was full of corpses and blown up on purpose. Absolutely outrageous. But that is the kind of propaganda there that they are being told.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Ukraine's president is comparing the downing of Malaysia Air flight 17 to 9/11 as far as how the world should react to this, also to the bombing of Pan Am flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland, and has reportedly lashed out against Russia and the rebels over reports of alleged looting at the crash site and for the way in which the victims' bodies have been handled.

Let me turn to CNN's chief international correspondent, Christiane Amanpour, who spoke with Ukrainian President Petra Poroshenko, live on CNN. She joins me from London. We watched the whole thing, and in the middle heard from President

Obama. You know, the headlines seem to be that he says the world needs to react to this, and which the world did in 9/11 in 2001.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: In that, he doesn't mean go to war, of course. But he means that people have to now side and decide whether they're with the terrorists, as he says, or with the civilized world. And he told me -- and, of course, this was his, you know, first interview since the downing of MH-17. He said that he designates those eastern Ukrainian pro-Russian separatists as terrorists.

And he wants the world to look at them in that way, as well. And he also said that he had created a 40-kilometer, you know, exclusion zone around the crash site whereby no Ukrainian military would conduct any offensives. And he told us that about 282 of the bodies are on those trains, which are now moving towards Kiev and will go to Amsterdam for identification and repatriation. He was very, very clear that actually now the world had to make President Putin stop those separatists, those terrorists, as he called them, from continuing to do what they're doing.

BALDWIN: Let's take a listen, Christiane, to a piece of your interview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETRO POROSHENKO, PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE: Our number-one is that terroristic attack itself, where the terrorists, supported by the Russian launch rocket, missile, surface-to-air missile, against the civilian Malaysian plane, which brings 290 victims. Crime number two, and it is a disaster. The way, how the bodies, innocent bodies, including the 80 children, were treated. They take their personal belongings, these terrorists, and they treat it very badly. This is barbarian style of doing this with the bodies of the victims. And crime number three, all that you do during this 96 hours, they try to destroy the evidence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Well, Brooke, he was very emphatic about that. And he also denied, again, Russian attempts to say Ukraine was responsible for this. The Russian defense minister seemed to suggest they were, you know, wondering whether Ukraine may have been -- he categorically denied it. And he said that, you know, this now has to stop, and this should be a moment of truth for the Russians, for President Putin, and for what he called the world to stand in solidarity.

BALDWIN: Christiane, I wanted to ask you something, pivoting to a comment made by Dianne Feinstein over the weekend on "State of the Union," she was speaking, admonishing Putin to step up and do the right thing. But she -- it was a certain phrase. Let me just first play this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN, (D), CALIFORNIA: The issue is where is Putin? And I would say, Putin, you have to man up. You should talk to the world. You should say if this was a mistake, which I hope it was, say it. Even if it was a mistake, it's a horrendous mistake to make. And I think it points out the futility of what's happening in the Ukraine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: As a female Senator, the two words "man up" -- not that Vladimir Putin is listening to anyone, but himself these days. But in Russia, specifically, culturally, how would that sit with him and others?

AMANPOUR: Well, I don't know, actually. I've heard that comment many times before. And I'm not sure how it will go down in Russia. But, of course, Putin does consider himself pretty manly. In all those bare-chested pictures and those chasing bears and I don't know what else all over the world. But in a slightly more relevant comment, yes, he is the one who actually has to exercise his authority, because he is the one who can turn the spigot on and off, close the border, stop mercenaries, stop fighters, stop Russian personnel, stop these heavy weapons systems moving in across to eastern Ukraine. And take up the hand of President Poroshenko, who is over and again suggesting a peace plan, cease-fire terms, how he'll deal with eastern Ukraine.

But one of the things that neither the Russians nor the separatist rebels have been able to say, this was a mistake. I don't think anybody believes this plane, a civilian airliner, was deliberately shot down. But nor are any of them agreeing to say that this was a mistake and we need to deal with it. Instead, the pro-Russian separatists are telling CNN that, you know, the Ukrainians did it and they never did it. President Putin has not denied that it could have happened by pro-Russian separatists. He has not denied that. He's never said it did, but he hasn't denied it.

BALDWIN: OK. Christiane Amanpour, with that perspective.

And I just want to urge our viewers, you can watch the entire Petro Poroshenko, president of Ukraine, interview. Go to CNN.com.

Christiane, as always, thank you very much.

And there were already pretty wild conspiracy theories about Malaysian Air flight 17, like the fact that -- or I should say not fact at all, the conspiracy that was pushed out there that the plane was full of corpses and the pilots ejected before the crash. But in Russia, some of these loose, absurd theories are being treated as truth. And then all of this, of course, is just torment for these family members mourning the loss of their loved ones, remembering them before this disaster. Some of their stories, ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: President Obama, not the only president demanding official investigators be allowed access to the crash site of flight 17 in eastern Ukraine. Russian's Vladimir Putin is doing the same, publicly, at least. But if you are in Russia, you would think Putin is trying to help investigators instead of being accused of hampering the investigation, as several world leaders did today.

So what else are Russians hearing about this downed plane? According to the "New Republic," lies. Some so egregious, so outrageous, they are offensive. Like this one: Flight 17 is actually flight 370. The "New Republic" quoted a website, translating it from Russian, and let me read part of it. They say, quote, "Inside were not live people but corpses. The plane was flown not by real pilots, it was on autopilot. For takeoff, the complicated procedure executed by live pilots who then ejected on parachutes in the necessary spot. It was blown up without using an air-to-surface missile." This is the stuff people are hearing in Russia.

Joining me now, managing editor of "The New Republic," Linda Kinstler, Linda, visited Ukraine in the last month, covering the conflict there.

Linda, welcome.

LINDA KINSTLER, MANAGING EDITOR, THE NEW REPUBLIC: Thanks for having me.

BALDWIN: So this is one example. Can you just tell me a couple of these stories that Russians are being told?

KINSTLER: Yes. Well, basically, we have seen that the Russian propaganda machine is out in full force, trying to deflect any kind of culpability for the accident. We have seen, first of all, that MH-370 rumor going on that it's the original plane that was hidden, taken to the Netherlands and loaded with corpses, and then flown over Ukraine. We've also heard that, you know, the accident -- the plane was flown with American help, that it was actually Ukrainian pilot jets that were flying next to the plane that were escorting it over eastern Ukraine. That it was actually Ukrainian operation that shot down MH- 17. All sorts of rumors going on. And part of that original MH-370 rumor came from one of the separatist leaders. And we have heard them say all sorts of conflicting things about what is going on on the ground there, which is partly also why there has been so much confusion about the location of the black boxes.

BALDWIN: OK. Black boxes is one whole other story. But the issue with these different, you know -- the conspiracy, and you mentioned the 370 conspiracy coming from the Russian rebels. Are the others coming directly from the Kremlin? Isn't most of the television -- if you're looking at the news in Russia, mostly Kremlin-controlled?

KINSTLER: Yes, absolutely. There is Channel 1 in Russia that has been kind of propagating a lot of these theories. And people believe it in Russia, that they think that Russia was not culpable for the plane crash that, in fact, this is just another example of the Ukrainian fascists who are trying to take over the east, causing an international catastrophe.

BALDWIN: And the basis to some of these storylines coming from -- I saw your colleague with Anderson earlier, saying, you know, TV shows like "Sherlock" and "Game of Thrones"? KINSTLER: Right. And they're really pulling at any straws they can

to deflect responsibility for the conflict. We saw Putin's address last night, he called for an international investigation but he didn't call for accountability as to who is responsible for this. And that is just another part of this propaganda machine of trying to deflect responsibility.

BALDWIN: In full force, as you pointed out.

Linda Kinstler with "The New Republic," thank you for coming on.

And all of this, these stories -- some facts, some absolutely not. This is all just torment for these family members, because they're trying to grieve, watching all this unfold. Some of the stories of those lost on the flight are just ahead.

And we are moments away from President Obama giving out the nation's highest honor. We will take you there live, as it happens. The U.S. Medal of Honor.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Families of those who were on Malaysia Airlines flight 17 are coming forward in pain, and they are sharing the stories of their loved ones, the victims. 298 lives cut short. Here are just a few.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN (voice-over): Thursday, 23-year-old Bryce and his girlfriend Daisy boarded MH-17. Their destination, Bali, a much-needed vacation for the couple. Daisy's mother died just a few months ago. Sunday, their family mourns, laying flowers for the lost couple at Amsterdam's Schiphol Airport.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I saw pictures on Facebook of bodies. Complete bodies. I had had to look at it, because maybe my son was on the picture.

BALDWIN: All their family wants now, the remains of Bryce and Daisy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want the bodies.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They can have everything, but the bodies.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want them back.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Take their iPhones, take their money, take everything. I want to put my son and his girlfriend, Bryce and Daisy, together. Together again. Here. They have to be buried together. They died together. They loved each other. They'll be together for always.

BALDWIN: Andre Anghel was a medical student from Ontario, Canada. The 24-year-old was on his way to Bali for a vacation. Now his two sisters say they are distraught without him. ALEXANDRA ANGHEL, SISTER OF MH17 VICTIM: 10:00 p.m., and when I got

the message from him saying, "Hey, good morning. The next time I write you guys will be in Bali." And I said, "Please be safe, kiddo, I love you." And that was it. I'm pretty sure he saw it, because I sent it like five minutes after, but -- I hope he saw it. I just want him to come home.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I keep going through calm stages where I just want to deal with everything and get it out of the way. But then every other minute I just want to break down and die. Because I don't -- I don't know how to do this without him.

BALDWIN: Sister Philomena Tiernan (ph), the 77-year-old Australian nun, was heading home, the beloved teacher, a shocking loss to the community.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She's been a great mentor, and she's also a personal friend. So we're just devastated. The shock has been incredible.

She very much brought love in all her interactions with everybody.

BALDWIN: And another Australian, Nick Norris, of Perth, was flying with his three young grandchildren. Family members taking some solace knowing that he died looking over Little Mo, Evy and Otis.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People in our family looking for some answers. And Nick himself was an inspirational hero to so many people. He was a real story-teller and natural leader. And my memory has been very fond. He provided a great role model for me.