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Ebola Epidemic; Interview with Colorado Congresswoman Diana DeGette

Aired October 16, 2014 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: And we continue on, top of the hour. I'm Brooke Baldwin. You are watching CNN.

A second Ebola-stricken nurse is now being flown out of Dallas to this hospital in Maryland one day after a nurse, Amber Vinson, was transferred to Emory University Hospital in Atlanta to be treated to Ebola. Vinson is the nurse who took the Frontier Airlines flight from Cleveland to Dallas the day before she was diagnosed before the virus.

It turns out she did call the CDC, reported this low-grade fever, did make them aware of this plane she was about to get on, and they apparently did not say no.

CDC Director Tom Frieden was asked about that today as he testified before members of Congress.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did she in fact call the CDC and ask for guidance on boarding a commercial flight, as far as you know?

DR. THOMAS FRIEDEN, CDC DIRECTOR: My understanding is that she did contact the CDC and we discussed with her, her reported symptoms, as well as other evaluation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you part of that conversation?

FRIEDEN: No, I was not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: This much is true. The Dallas hospital that treated Thomas Eric Duncan is now showing regret, saying -- quote -- "We made mistakes. We're deeply sorry."

Texas Health Presbyterian Hospital officials admitted they mishandled Thomas' Ebola case, which led to two of its nurses, as you well know, being infected. CNN has also learned this first nurse to fall ill, Nina Pham, will now be treated at NIH, National Institutes of Health, in Maryland.

The second Ebola patient, Amber Vinson, this other nurse, arrived at Atlanta's Emory University Hospital just last night. And moments ago, hazmat teams descended upon her home, her apartment complex to decontaminate it. Let me take you to Dallas to CNN's Anderson Cooper, who is working

this story for us from the ground.

And, Anderson, let's just begin with two nurses, one headed to Maryland and one in Atlanta. How are they doing?

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Nina Pham is said to be in good condition. As you know, she's the first nurse to test positive for Ebola. She is to be moved today to that NIH facility in Bethesda, Maryland.

Not exactly clear why she's being moved to that facility, whether it's simply a matter of her wishes, her family's wishes or this hospital deciding it's best to get all of the Ebola patients that they had moved to other facilities, so they can maybe try to regroup, but again no exact cause on why she's being moved, but she's said to be in good condition.

There hasn't been an update on Amber Vinson. As you know, we were able to watch her yesterday in real time when she got off the plane to go to Emory, where she was able to walk with a little bit of aid of her own accord into an ambulance and then she was taken to Emory University Hospital, where they have that special biocontainment unit.

She at least was able to walk, which is certainly a good sign, similar to Kent Brantly, who was able to walk. He was the first Ebola patient who had tested positive in Liberia and he also, as you may remember, was able to walk off a plane and get into an ambulance to go to Emory.

BALDWIN: I know you talked to him last night on his show and he's doing better, but by no means has he bounced back.

And so you're in Dallas. You're talking to people, I imagine, who live there. If you can, just give us a real idea of how people are feeling in this community. Here, they have first Thomas Eric Duncan and then these two nurses, all of whom have Ebola.

Is it fear? I know a couple of schools have closed. Put this in perspective for us, please.

COOPER: Yes, look, it's different for everybody.

I can tell just about everywhere I go in Dallas, people realize I'm here to get Ebola. I get the same question just about everywhere. I have been asked it probably five times today in different places, even in the gym earlier this morning, people saying, look, should I be worried? Should I be concerned?

What I always say is, look, if you're a health care worker and you're dealing with an Ebola patient, that's when you really should be concerned, but for the general population at this point it does not seem to be something that should be a real issue. It is certainly good to have knowledge about it and certainly good to learn about it and that's what we're trying to do.

We're trying to tell people as much as they can and arm them with as much information. And we're hearing certainly from people in the communities where the nurses have lived. You know, they suddenly wake up with reverse a 911 call, with a pamphlet on their door explaining that one of their neighbors has tested positive.

And there you see suddenly the reality of it. It is not just something they see on the news or read in the newspaper or online, it's something that they actually -- it's something that they are confronted with as somebody living in their community, even if they don't know that person.

But I think for the most part, look, the life of the city continues on. It's not a -- there's not panic or anything like that. There's concern. There's interest. People are watching it very closely. They would like to have a little bit more information from this hospital and this hospital has been very transparent in terms of what's actually gone on.

We have now started to hear from a whistle-blower who was on "The Today Show," and she will be on my program later tonight, one of the nurses who is inside the hospital. The hospital has responded, but they have not responded directly to her allegations yet.

BALDWIN: We will look to hear her on your show, this nurse who was part of all this, didn't directly treat him, but has actually treated Nina Pham.

Anderson, back to this notion of fear and specifically, as Dr. Brantly said to you last night, this irrational fear. Let me play just this quick sound bite and then we will walk.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KENT BRANTLY, EBOLA SURVIVOR: I think there's a lot of irrational fear about spreading in the United States.

If we think about what we have seen so far, we had one man who came from Liberia, contracted the disease, came to America and got sick here. And now who else has gotten sick from him? It's two health care workers who were taking intimate care of him, you know, cleaning up his bodily secretions, dealing with his blood, and medical procedures. Those are the two people who have gotten sick. Not the 48 some odd people being tracked by the CDC...

COOPER: The 48 who had contact in the community.

BRANTLY: No one from that group has gotten sick, it was the people who were taking close care of him in a hospital setting.

Until this epidemic is stopped in West Africa, it will continue to be a global problem. And the answer is not simply close the borders and let them deal with it themselves. We've got to be proactive.

We have to go put an end to the epidemic or it's going to keep coming back to cause problems and suffering in the global community.

(END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: Dr. Kent Brantly, who, as we all remember, was brought over from Africa as a doctor. Came back to Emory. You remember the pictures from the helicopters hovering over the scene of him actually walking into this hospital and placed in isolation and now fast forward some time, sitting in front of you.

But he told you, Anderson, he's not 100 percent. How does he feel now?

COOPER: He says he's not sure when he will ever be able to say he feels totally normal. But he's walking around. He's healthy. He looks good. He doesn't feel 100 percent.

But he's interacting with his family and with his children, spending time with them. He's not sure what his future holds or even really where he lives, because he thought he would be living in Liberia for the next two years. But he's good, and just as Nancy Writebol is.

I have interviewed Nancy Writebol now twice. She's the other missionary who was with Kent Brantly who also tested positive and was treated at Emory. And she's getting better and better and still taking a little bit of medication, but she's in great spirits and they're both extraordinary people who have dedicated their lives to helping others and they're not letting this stop them from doing that.

They plan to continue that kind of work. And we also point out Kent Brantly, he's actually donated his blood now at least three times both to Nina Pham and two others and he says he's willing to do it again. He volunteered to donate his blood to Thomas Eric Duncan, the Liberian patient, but they weren't the same blood type, so that actually didn't occur.

BALDWIN: Right.

COOPER: But Kent Brantly say he's willing to donate. It's actually his plasma that he donates. And he will keep doing that as long as necessary, though he said he hopes that that won't be necessary again.

BALDWIN: It's phenomenal. We wish them well. Anderson Cooper thank you so much, sir. We will see you at 8:00 again with that whistle- blower with that Dallas nurse from the hospital. Look forward to it 8:00 Eastern here on CNN.

We did mention the CDC director testifying on Capitol Hill today.

Now I have Congressman Diana DeGette of Colorado. She's the senior Democrat on the House Energy and Commerce Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigation. She's the one who called today's hearing.

Congresswoman, it's nice to see you. Thank you for taking the time.

REP. DIANA DEGETTE (D), COLORADO: Thanks.

BALDWIN: OK. So I was glued to this hearing. I was watching every single question you asked of these gentlemen sitting at the table in front of you. Let me begin with the notion that the second nurse, Amber Vinson,

boarded this plane. And you asked Dr. Frieden exactly about what everyone wants to know, what that conversation was between this health care professional, who made the CDC aware that she had that low-grade fever before getting on that plane, made the CDC aware that she was getting on a plane in the first place.

Were you clear about what that conversation was? Because I wasn't, listening to it, to the testimony.

DEGETTE: No, the CDC has not answered my question about why she was allowed to get on that plane after she self-reported having a fever.

The way I read the CDC guidelines, all of those individuals who are being self-monitored, they shouldn't be traveling on commercial transportation. And so this is something I think will be clarified now. I don't think they will be letting any of those folks travel.

But it's part of a bigger question that I want to know. Seems like there were some very slipshod things both by the hospital in Dallas and by the CDC in early stages and that's why we have more infections now.

BALDWIN: On some of that, you pointed to, you know, a diagram in a newspaper that I know I woke up and saw first thing this morning when it comes to the nurses and the doctors, PPEs, these personal protection equipment, the capes, the masks, the gloves, et cetera.

What were you trying to get at there with your questions?

DEGETTE: Well, if the caregivers are really doing protocols, then they should not have bodily contact with the fluids of the Ebola patient.

And the patients become more contagious the sicker that they get, and so it's really vital that caretakers have this protection. Dr. Frieden said today for the first time he thinks that nurse Pham was contaminated in the first 48 hours, before the actual diagnosis came and CDC came on the ground, and I think that's probably true.

But what we need to make sure going forward, what I'm really concerned about is every hospital -- my hospital in Denver and all hospitals around the country know that if a patient shows up and they have a fever and even if they're not vomiting or whatever and they say they have been to Africa, to treat that very seriously, as it might be Ebola. And I'm not sure that that was done at the Presbyterian Hospital in Dallas.

BALDWIN: Dr. Frieden, the man in the hot seat today, he has this delicate job of informing the public, keeping the calm. I have talked to two doctors on this program today, including our own Dr. Sanjay Gupta, who out of the gate said he felt bad for him today answering some of these questions.

My question to you is, Congresswoman, do you think he should resign?

DEGETTE: Absolutely not. I think Tom Frieden is a dedicated public servant and I think he's really trying to do the right thing here.

Look, Ebola is not easily transmitted. It's not transmitted through the air. And these folks who have gotten it have had close contact with very sick patients in a hospital setting. What we need to make sure though is two things. Number one, we need to work aggressively with international organizations to contain this outbreak in West Africa, because, if we don't, we're only going to be seeing more and more of these patients showing up in our emergency rooms.

And then the second thing we need to make sure is that the CDC has adequate protocols, but also that every state and local health care system and every hospital and every hospital worker knows what to do, because here we had protocols. They had protocols of what people should do. But these nurses at this hospital, they didn't -- they were given e-mails and things, but they didn't have actual training about what to do.

BALDWIN: Right.

DEGETTE: And it looks like certainly this whistle-blower who you have had on your program, what she's saying is in the early days, there was skin exposed on some of these health care workers.

BALDWIN: Right.

DEGETTE: That's against the CDC protocols. That's not Tom Frieden's fault. But it doesn't really matter whose fault it is. The fact is, we need to really tighten up at every level here.

BALDWIN: Congresswoman Diana DeGette, please keep asking those tough questions.

DEGETTE: You know I will.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: We promise we will do the same. Appreciate it very much.

We are learning the hospital staff who treated Thomas Eric Duncan may be put on a no-board list, not allowed to fly on planes. What about anything else? What about their workplaces? What about if they get on the bus? What about malls, public arenas? We will talk to an expert if keeping them off plane is really enough.

Plus, I will speak live with a neighbor of that second nurse in Dallas who is revealing the interesting system officials are using there to alert people in his community. You're watching CNN's special coverage. Stay with me.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Ebola, listen, it's forcing a lot of officials to walk this fine line between taking precautions against this deadly virus and feeding this frenzy over it. Here's what I can tell you. Five schools are closed today. In Ohio, the Solon School District shut two schools because a staff

member was possibly on the same plane, but not on the same flight, that Ebola patient Amber Vinson took when she had that 99.5-degree fever. In Texas, I can tell you that two students were actually on Vinson's plane.

Our affiliate KWTX reports these young people had no direct contact with this nurse, but they were on that flight. The district is closing the children's schools and a third just to disinfect the buildings. Parents are voluntarily keeping the two kids home, even though the district is actually allowing them to return to class. It's a decision some parents definitely resisted.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, is this not a mistake to send those children to school? If it was enough to set up a press conference and send e- mails home to parents, then maybe it's enough to just think maybe we ought to just monitor these kids and send their homework home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Joining me now, Dr. Victor Politi, a former public safety official and current president and CEO of NuHealth System.

Doctor, welcome.

DR. VICTOR POLITI, CEO, NUHEALTH SYSTEM: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: So, let's just begin with these school closings.

POLITI: Sure.

BALDWIN: Listen, one camp could say this is absolutely the right thing. This is a precaution. Maybe they needed some of these precautions a couple weeks ago or the other camp could say this is ridiculous and adding to hysteria. Where do you fall?

POLITI: I think we have to take all precautions necessary right now and get a handle on this. This is a potential public emergency that needs to be stopped right now.

As far as we know, we have a limited amount of exposure and limited number of people that have had contact with persons that might be exposed. It's a good place to start, a good place to start.

BALDWIN: I can only imagine. I would be sitting here and telling a different story if they hadn't closed the schools and there could be hysteria over parents saying why aren't the schools closed?

Then you have these 76 health care workers from this Dallas hospital who potentially federal government making the decision as to whether or not they should put on what is called this do-not-board list, can't get on planes. My question is, all right, so if they can't -- if the decision is not being put on planes, what about buses, what about trains, what about malls? You can go on and on and on. Where do you draw the line?

POLITI: That's true. I think we have to be concerned about the persons when they become infected. If they are not exhibiting any signs right now, if these persons are afebrile, not any flu-like symptoms, then they are not contagious.

BALDWIN: Amber Vinson thought she was fine, even with a 99.5-degree fever, and she hopped on that plane not knowing.

(CROSSTALK)

POLITI: That's true. And do we know enough about that right now to say without a certainty?

BALDWIN: No.

POLITI: No, we don't. And we do need to take the proper precautions. And again if we have a limited amount of people, I think right now is the time to impose those type of restrictions.

I know if it affected my hospital, we would certainly watch the staff that was involved. And we're going to take every precaution to prevent them from becoming in any way infectious as well.

BALDWIN: You would? But would you go as far as self-isolation for 21 days?

POLITI: Not initially, no. But if they did have some symptoms, I would definitely have them quarantined for sure.

BALDWIN: All right. Dr. Vic Politi, thank you very much.

POLITI: I thank you very much, Brooke.

BALDWIN: I appreciate it.

POLITI: Sure.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, images like these have some people in Dallas nervous. Would you be? Hazmat crews showing up at the apartment complex of one of these nurses, Amber Vinson. She was the second nurse to contract Ebola. We will talk to someone who lives nearby about the precautions people there are taking.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: It's certainly one thing to hear or see or read these stories about Ebola, but when you look outside your window and you see the reality of it, that's a whole different ball game.

This is what neighbors of Ebola patient and nurse Amber Vinson are seeing today, hazmat crews doing some extensive cleaning in and around her Dallas apartment.

But that's not all that happens when there's word an Ebola patient lived in your complex. Authorities text you. They call. They bang on your front door alerting neighbors to the news. They want you to know what's going on.

Let me bring in James Coltharp. He lives in that apartment complex on the other side of Amber Vinson's.

James, thanks for coming on.

JAMES COLTHARP, NEIGHBOR OF AMBER VINSON: You're welcome.

BALDWIN: So, I hear when you first heard about this happening very close to you, you were awakened by a helicopter. You saw with your own eyes these hazmat crews. What's your concern number one?

COLTHARP: Well, I guess my concern are those in charge of protecting us from it. It seems to be that there were several issues with treating Mr. Duncan in the first place and it seemed like so much of this was unnecessary to begin with.

BALDWIN: So it's the people who you have questions over. What about just in where you live? Do you find yourself, even though we know the facts -- you can't get Ebola unless you are in close act with someone who has it or a body or bodily fluids, I'm assuming none of which apply to you.

Do you find yourself washing your hands a little extra? Do you find yourself watching people who are sneezing? People have a lot of questions these days.

COLTHARP: I think you can't help but be a little more wary of your surroundings, absolutely. You just -- was she in some of the common areas that we were all in? Is she running on the same jogging paths? Does she work out in the same gym that we all do?

My concerns were there. And it's just not feeding into the hysteria and it's just, like you say, continually washing your hands and just being aware of your surroundings.

BALDWIN: You say this word hysteria. I'm wondering if you feel like -- first of all, I don't know if hysteria really even applies to this story. You're the one living in Dallas, so you tell me.

But when we hear about a couple of schools closed because some of these kids were either on the same plane or on that flight of Amber Vinson's when she was coming back from Cleveland, we know they are closed, do you think that's necessary? Do you think that feeds into this hysteria?

COLTHARP: Well, I think that it's better to be safe than sorry.

If it means closing these schools down for a few days just to make sure no one else was exposed, then certainly that's the right thing to do.

BALDWIN: James Coltharp of Dallas, Texas, appreciate it, sir, very much for coming on.

COLTHARP: You're welcome. BALDWIN: Coming up next, we will talk to the man who served as

special assistant to President George W. Bush on bio-defense. What does he think here? How should the federal government balance informing the public without creating this panic, this hysteria? And has the CDC done a good of job of that? Let's -- we will ask him.

And a doctor tells CNN people are -- quote, unquote -- "scared to go to this Dallas hospital." What about the other nurses, especially the ones who treated Duncan? We're just now getting a new response from that hospital. We will share that with you coming up on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)