Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

"Justice for All" March; Homes Buried by Mud and Rock; Senate Spending Showdown; Four Mothers Share Pain of Losing Sons; "Week Of Outrage" Protests Continue Across U.S.; Crude Oil Prices Down 40 percent This Year; Fall Out In the Field From CIA Torture Report; Report: U.S. Prison Camp A Breeding Ground For ISIS

Aired December 13, 2014 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANA CABRERA, CNN ANCHOR: Happy Saturday.

The 11:00 hour of NEWSROOM starts right now.

Two major stories out of our nation's capital. First, thousands preparing to march against police brutality and racial profiling. They want justice for those who have lost their lives. It is an anguish and a pain that this mother knows all too well.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GWEN CARR, MOTHER OF ERIC GARNER: UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That is horrible. To -- for a mother to see her child laying there dead in the street.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Plus the Senate, returning to the hill in about an hour to try to avoid another government shutdown -- the latest on the spending bill showdown.

And then?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: God (EXPLETIVE DELETED)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: This is the terrifying sight that tears through downtown L.A. -- a look at the tornado that ripped apart tree, damaged buildings.

Those stories straight ahead.

And good Saturday morning, thanks again for being here. I'm Ana Cabrera in for Fred today.

Right now thousands are gathering in our nation's capital and within the hour they will begin a "Justice for All" march on Washington -- part of a nationwide day of protests that are expected today. Protesters say this is the culmination of their week of outrage over the recent killings of Eric Garner in New York; 18-year-old Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri; and 12-year-old Tamir Rice in Cleveland. Protesters in D.C. are going to start their march at the Freedom Plaza that's near the White House. And then they make their way down to the U.S. capital.

Our Sunlen Serfaty is in Washington. She's joining us on the phone.

Also we have Alexandra Field in New York, ready for protests there.

Sunlen, I'll start with you. What is the feeling on the ground there?

(inaudible)

CABRERA: We're having some technical problems I think with Sunlen's phone connection but you can see these live pictures right now in Washington where protesters are already gathering. And we'll be heading there live shortly.

Instead, let's turn it over to our Alexandria Field in New York, awaiting the perhaps tens of thousands of marchers who will be gathering there within the next couple of hours. Alexandra -- I know protesters are calling their protest "Millions March, a Day of Anger". What is the tone there right now?

ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes we're going to see how many people show up. This starts at 2:30. But what we know so far is that this is a much more organized and more highly orchestrated kind of event than what we've seen in the last couple of weeks. Of course the rally here is a cry for justice for Eric Garner, for Michael Brown. They are joining under this phrase that you've heard so many times from demonstrators, "black lives matter".

They are going to come here to Washington Square Park. They're going to meet there later this afternoon. They are again, expecting tens of thousands of people. That's because there's been a really massive social media effort to recruit people to join in, in this march. And there are a number of groups that are working together here under a coalition. They've all joined up to put this on. They really wanted to bring attention to this issue.

This is a little different Ana from what we have seen in the last couple of weeks in the sense that throughout this city and in so many cities around the country we've seen groups come together a little bit more spontaneously, a little bit more organically coming together -- joining, chanting, singing, marching, demonstrating.

But what they're going to here today is start at Washington Square Park and then they've already mapped out the route they are going to take. They will assemble here. We don't know if there's going to be a program. We don't know if they'd lined up any speakers. But we know that the whole group will moves from Washington Square Park to One Police Plaza. So they will be walking a couple of miles.

Police are already out here this morning. They're setting up, they're preparing for the possibility again of tens of thousands of people. Some 45,000 people apparently RSVP'd for this on Facebook. Again, tough to tell how many people will come out for it but weather is on their side. It is sunny here in New York, so it's possible that we will see a pretty big crowd out here this afternoon -- Ana.

CABRERA: All right, Alexandra Field. Stand by with us as we'll check back in with you as that protest gets going in New York City. We have Sunlen Serfaty now joining us on the phone from Washington D.C. where the protests there get underway even earlier. Sunlen, what can you tell us about the situation on the ground there right now?

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Well, Ana, this crowd has grown significantly just in the last hour. I would say well over a thousand, maybe more here in Freedom Plaza in Washington D.C. The crowd is packed. It is almost filled a full city block. People are listening to speeches which is the pre rally before the march happens. There are a lot of signs in the crowd. Many saying "I can't breathe", "black lives matter"; and a lot of protesters were bussed in from many other states across the country from Florida, from Connecticut.

I spoke with one woman this morning who rode on a bus all night to get here from Detroit. And she said it matters that I'm here. I can't sit on the sidelines any longer.

In a few hours, right around the noon, the marchers start here in Freedom Plaza and then take that iconic walk down Pennsylvania Avenue and ending on Capitol Hill -- Ana.

CABRERA: You will be there with them. We'll check back in with you. Thank you so much to Sunlen Serfaty and Alexandra Field.

Let's take you now to the west coast where Mother Nature will not let up -- rain, floods, mudslides, and even a tornado all part of a severe weather system whipping through California.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What the (EXPLETIVE DELETED). God (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: This crazy video is of an EF-0 twister that hit yesterday. It was right around lunchtime. You see everything just throwing around there. Winds of up to 85 miles per hour were recorded. This tornado damaged an apartment complex, also a couple of houses, downed some trees. Fortunately no one was hurt.

It's the first tornado in Los Angeles County since 2007. That storm also triggering flooding and mud slides burying some neighborhoods under dirt and rock. This is an image here at the storm's aftermath in Camarillo Springs, California. That is the roof of a home. You can see homes buried up to the windows. That's rock and debris all around it and our Stephanie Elam has been surveying the damage. STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: When you look at the amount of

rock that came off the mountainside into this community it is astounding. We are standing right at the roof level of these homes. It is completely unbelievable that no one was hurt.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ELAM: Two inches of rain in just three hours pelting southern California. In the heart of the city, a swift water rescue on the Los Angeles River.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here we go. Here we go. They're going to pull around.

ELAM: From the rising and rapidly moving current, first responders pulled two people clinging to trees to safety, including this woman.

Other part of the Los Angeles area left ravaged by recent wild fires also getting doused with more water than the baked scarred land could handle. Crews began working to clean up the mud and debris enveloping these homes and blocking some streets, even as the rain was still falling.

In Camarillo Springs, an area that was charred by wild fire in 2013, the downpour was far more punishing sending mud and tons of rocks cascading down on these homes.

CAPT. MIKE LINDBERRY, VENTURY COUNTY FIRE DEPARTMENT: UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They have a lot of rock to move here. It is almost like a quarry. It's just amazing to look at.

ELAM: The damage so intense officials deemed ten homes uninhabitable but remarkably no reports of injuries.

Cindy Wargo came here to check on her mother, who was safe, but she's still heartbroken for these residents.

CINDY WARGO, AREA RESIDENT: These are a lot of elderly people that, you know, this is their retirement community and you know, this is where they put their money in?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ELAM: And to add insult to injury more rain is expected at the beginning of the week, something drought stricken California desperately needs but for the residents who live here there is such a thing as too much of a good thing.

Stephanie Elam, CNN, Camarillo Springs, California.

CABRERA: What a mess. What an inconvenience for those folks.

Let's get an update now from meteorologist, Karen Maginnis. Karen, what can we expect next in California? It sounds like perhaps things could get even worse there. KAREN MAGINNIS, METEOROLOGIST: We are looking at kind of a double

whammy with additional rainfall. The first whammy that we saw was the tornado, the flooding, the debris flow that inundated those homes. All part of the Pineapple express.

The next system, here is California, the West Coast -- This is going to be the leading edge of our next system that moves on in towards California again. This will be on Monday. Perhaps does not have the volume of moisture that we saw with this last system that produced that tornado that we saw in southern California with the amazing video there.

But this one is still going to pack a punch with northern California probably receiving the bulk of this moisture. Most of that will be well to the north of the San Francisco Bay area but those snow levels continue to drop. We'll see some wet weather in southern California.

Now you have to remember this is an entire state that has endured a severe or extreme drought across the entire state. And now they are getting all of this winter moisture -- necessary winter moisture -- all at one time. Well, the ground now just cannot absorb that much more moisture. But southern California is not so dramatic. Northerner California is going to be a little more dramatic than what we've seen.

All right. As a result of this weather system pushing forward (inaudible) U.S. for tomorrow we could see an outbreak of severe weather. Right now a slight chance for isolated tornado, high winds with a potential for some hail -- Ana.

CABRERA: You will be busy. You're tracking it all for us. Meteorologist Karen Maginnis. Thank you.

Now coming up our other top story out of Washington today -- we will go live to Erin McPike where the battle over the government spending bill is set to resume today -- Erin.

ERIN MCPIKE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Ana it's coming down to the wire in the Senate where they're voting today to keep the government open for a few days in order to hammer out a larger bill. More on that after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: It's 11:13 here in the East and we're now less than an hour away from the spending showdown on the Hill where the Senate is set to return to work today. Yes, on a Saturday, because they are trying to pass a massive spending package to avoid another government shutdown.

The original plan was resume for the weekend and resume debate on Monday but then late last night, some junior Republican senators defied the agreement that was reached by the Senate's top leadership and that has now forced the Senate to reconvene today.

CNN's Erin McPike is joining us at the White House; also with us, CNN's national political reporter, Maeve Reston in Los Angeles. Erin, to you first, what do we expect to happen today and kind catch us up to speed about what happened last night to get to this point?

MCPIKE: Well, Ana, what happened last night is that Harry Reid had asked for unanimous consent to adjourn and then reconvene on Monday to have that vote on final passage but that was not ok with those two junior Republican very conservative senators, both Mike Lee and Ted Cruz who really wanted to guarantee a vote on this amendment that would strip funding from President Obama's executive order on immigration.

Now Harry Reid said no, no way he would do that. So Mike Lee specifically objected to that. Listen here to those two talk about that on the Senate Floor last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MIKE LEE: I don't see any reason why we should wait until Monday at 5:00 p.m.

SEN. TED CRUZ (D), TEXAS: Again, I take him at his word. When the Republican leaders promised this bill is all designed so come January and February, just a few weeks from now, we will see both Houses stand together and make clear that when the continuing resolution expires for the Department of Homeland Security this body will not appropriate money to DHS to carry out President Obama's illegal and unconstitutional amnesty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCPIKE: Now the "him" that Cruz was referring to in the beginning of that sound bite was Mitch McConnell. And what this essentially means is that come January when Republicans take control of the Senate and Mitch McConnell is then the majority leader he is going to have plenty of headaches as well. And I talked to a lot of Republicans who were very upset with both Cruz and Lee for standing in the way of this compromise that was ready to really sail threw.

Now, what we're looking at today is a set of procedural votes. One of those votes for the end of the day that we expect to see is on a stopgap funding measure that would keep the government open through Wednesday so that on Monday, is what we're expecting, they can have this vote on final passage for that $1.1 trillion spending measure -- Ana.

CABRERA: So we're sort of kicking the can down the road. The House did pass this measure so it is stuck in the Senate right now. Maeve, let's take away the spin from each side of this aisle and is this bill, do you think, have a fair compromise between the two parties.

MAEVE RESTON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I think that both parties have found that there is a lot that they don't like about the bill and the way that it's put together. But you have the Senators who actually brokered the compromise like Senator Mikulski, talking about the fact that they took a lot of good with the bad and making the argument that while everyone has been complaining about the bill over the last couple of days that there are some good aspects of it, you know, adding more money for the military. Obviously keeping the government open and a shutdown would be a huge disaster once again. It's just ironic that we've just been through an election where voters told us how absolutely tired they are of this kind of brinkmanship in Washington and now you are having this chaos play out all over again this week.

CABRERA: And we just heard from a couple of Republicans who don't like the bill. We know that Democrats have also been grand standing to some degree on this bill as well. We heard from Senator Elizabeth Warren this week saying quote, it's time for all of us to stand up and fight.

You know if Democrats now are voting against this bill, which the President has already urged them to pass, is this going to help or hurt their party, Erin, do you think?

MCPIKE: Well Ana, one thing we should point out is that the bill is ultimately expected to pass. Of course President Obama is urging passage. There was some question about whether or not he would ultimately sign it earlier in the week. ?But now we expect after his comments yesterday that he's very much expected to sign it before he leaves for vacation on Friday. He goes to Hawaii with his family for a few weeks. And we do expect it to pass and it will be signed some time this week. But this does hurt both parties because there has been a lot of complaint from both sides of the aisle -- Ana.

CABRERA: Maeve, I want to ask you one last question. And I'll let you also finish Erin's perspective, you know, going off of what she just said.

RESTON: Well, I think it's just It's really interesting as our Dana Bash was reporting yesterday, this chaos this week has actually really shown this lost art of compromise in Congress. And the fact that, you know, everyone is willing to go to the edge on these bills at this point because they don't want to be seen by their constituents as compromising at all. And that is a very different era that we're in right now than we were, you know, several decades ago.

CABRERA: We saw the last time this happened and there was actually a government shutdown how badly this hurt the economy. And while we're talking about the economy, I know one of the big issues that Democrats have been upset about in this particular bill since we already talked about immigration on the Republican side but Democrats are upset with Republicans for including some Wall Street roll backs of the reforms that were implemented after the crisis back in 2008 and 2009. Are Republicans actually arguing that these reforms from Wall Street aren't good for the country?

RESTON: Yes. I think that the broader argument that Republicans have made is that the Dodd-Frank bill that added new financial regulations really has stifled the banking industry. I don't think we've seen a lot of Republicans this week, you know, standing out there defending this provision on derivatives that has angered Elizabeth Warren and Nancy Pelosi and others.

And in fact, you have this sort of interesting alliance between Elizabeth Warren in the Senate and David Vitter the Louisiana Republican saying we should not be giving Christmas presents to big banks. I think we'll see that issue play out more especially as Republicans assume control of Congress. This is one of their big agenda items this pushing back Dodd-Frank. And you know, in their view making American banks more competitive again so we'll expect that to be the big fight next year.

CABRERA: All right Erin McPike at the White House and Maeve Reston in Los Angeles. Thanks to you both. We'll be checking back with you next hour when the Senate is back in session to see where we go from here.

Ahead though. Four mothers who know the pain the sting of losing a child.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARR: Video playing those shows how long he had his hand around miss son's neck. He had no regards for his life. It's like it was a thrill kill for him. He never let up off of him.

CABRERA: Coming up more from Eric Garner's mother, in her own riveting words talking about the confrontation that touched her son's life short.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: Thanks again for being with us on this Saturday for our spending party weekend with us. If you are just joining us, we want to let you know we are preparing for a big march in less than hour from now with thousands of people marching in the nation's capital for the "justice for all march". This is a nationwide day of protest over the recent police killings of unarmed African Americans. In New York City we're expecting up to 45,000 demonstrators that will march through that city, taking their protests, they're demands for justice directly to the headquarters of the NYPD, the march in Washington D.C. ends at the nation's capitol. Now they all are protesting many of the names that we've all come to know in recent days -- Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown, Eric Garner, Tamir Rice -- victims of what many see as injustice at the hands of police officers.

And now for the first time, their mothers come together to share their grief and their anger with Anderson Cooper. The latest and the youngest victim was just 12 years old -- Tamir Rice shot and killed by Cleveland police and it was all caught on video.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAMARI RICE, TAMIR RICE'S MOTHER: I was just still disbelief until I actually seen my son laying on the ground and the police were surrounding him.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: There's audio that's been released of Tamir's sister screaming they killed my baby brother.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They killed my baby brother. COOPER: What happened when you got to the scene?

Rice When I arrived like I said I'd seen my son laying down and nobody was doing anything. It was like they was around him. And they were just standing there. While my other son was like thrown against the car and I guess they was trying to retain him. We were probably 30 feet apart -- me and my 16-year-old. And me and Tamir was maybe 30 feet apart. And I was probably 20 feet from my daughter, because she was already in the back of the car.

COOPER: They put her in the police car.

RICE: Yes they put her in the police car. So she was actually in the police car looking at her brother just bleeding there and nobody's doing anything.

COSTELLO: As a mom do you -- I mean the video is released. Is that something you even watch as a mother?

RICE: Yes. I watched it. I had to watch it. I'm the one that released the video.

COOPER: You are.

RICE: They had to get permission from me to release the video.

COOPER: Why did you want people to see that video?

RICE: I think it's very important that the world knows what's going on with my son. He was only 12.

COOPER: A few seconds after arriving the police officers shot him.

RICE: They scared him more than anything. If you could look at it they scared him more than anything. It's like when he pulled up, they jumped up and they shot him. That's what I seen.

COOPER: Gwen, just hearing this is hard for you.

CARR: This is hard. A 12-year-old, not even a teenager. That's horrible for a mother to see her child laying there dead in the street. I know that was unbearable.

COOPER: Sybrina, I remember when -- early on you and I met and you were talking about your son, about Trayvon Martin and one of the things you felt very strongly about was that immediately authorities and police were trying to paint a picture of who he was, and paint a negative picture of who he was. Is that something you see happen to all these moms?

SYBRINA FULTON, MOTHER OF TRAYVON MARTIN: I noticed that they blame the victim. And a lot of times that gives -- that gives people a kind of ease. And it kind of justified why it was done.

Regardless of what these kids were doing or even what Mr. Garner was doing, it is minor. Those are minor things that they were doing and it should not have cost them their lives.

COOPER: I talked to the head of the police union in New York who said that if your son had just allowed himself to be arrested, he'd be alive today.

CARR: My son never resisted arrest. He had his hands up in the air as he was talking with the police. The police never told him he was under arrest. And he was just asking them to stop harassing him. And for what they were about to arrest him for like -- ok he did sell loose cigarettes but he wasn't selling them that day. He broke up a fight just minutes before. That's why the police was called because someone was fighting and he was breaking it up.

And -- but when the police came they looked past the fight and went straight for him. So, you know, they were -- why would they do that?

COOPER: When you heard that the police officer had testified that he didn't use a choke hold on your son --

CARR: Oh please. Well, what would you call it?

COOPER: He called it a takedown.

CARR: If he took him -- if it was a take down -- why -- when he took him down, he continued choking him. Mashing his head against the ground. The rest of the police officers on him.

The video plainly shows how long he had his hand around my son's neck. He had no regards for his life. It was like it was a thrill kill for him. He never let up off of him. Now was that just a takedown? I don't think so.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: These mothers and families are part of the big rally today in the nation's capital. They are expected to start marching in about 30 minutes. We'll take you there next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: We have breaking news out of Afghanistan. A U.S. official confirming to CNN two American soldiers have been killed as a result of a bomb that targeting a naval convoy. The Taliban has claimed responsibility for this. We're just beginning to get information on this and we'll have more for you as this becomes available.

And today massive protest is taking place nationwide over recent police killings of unarmed Americans. This is in Washington where protesters are gearing up now for the "Justice For All" march to the capitol and in New York City tens of thousands of demonstrators march through that city taking their protests directly to the headquarters of the NYPD.

And police in Portland Oregon have arrested a 22-year-old man in connection with the shooting yesterday afternoon near a high school where four were shot, one of them a 16-year-old girl is still in critical condition.

The gang task force is investigating and police say this 22-year-old who was arrested. It was after they stopped a vehicle and they were able to recover a handgun from inside that car.

Some new information this morning in really a tragic story out of Mississippi, 19-year-old who was set on fire a week ago and burned to death as family and friends prepare for the funeral of Jessica Chambers, police are investigating the very strong possibility they say that somebody was with her just moments before flames engulfed her car.

In fact, CNN affiliate, WMC, spoke to a man police have questioned about the death and he says investigators told him, chambers last word was the name Eric or Derek.

CABRERA: Minnesota Vikings star running back Adrian Peterson loses his appeal. So he is on the side lines. He has been suspended after police charged him with recklessly injuring his 4-year-old son after disciplining him with a tree branch.

Turning to business, this is one worst weeks for Wall Street in more than three years. There is a silver lining at least for consumers, for most of us. CNN business correspondent, Alison Kosik explains.

ALISON KOSIK, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: It was a tough week for stocks and you can pin it on one thing, oil. The Dow, Nasdaq and S&P 500, dropped this week as the declines were the biggest since 2011. The problem, we had not just one but three separate reports this week saying the same thing that global oil demand will drop next year.

That is from the U.S. government, OPEC and the International Energy Agency. By the same token the supply of oil on the market is still strong, which is why crude oil prices plunged this week falling below $60 a barrel.

Prices are down more than 40 percent this year and are sitting at levels we haven't seen since 2009 and the decline has happened really fast, that makes investors nervous. They pulled money out of big companies like Chevron and ExxonMobil.

The thinking is the drop in oil prices will lead to lower prices and cutbacks. And companies are already warning for exactly that. BP and Conoco Phillips recently announced that oil exploration and jobs will be cut. But oil prices mean low gas prices. National gas is about 60 to 70 cents cheaper than last year.

That is a big savings for people. According to one estimate, it is a savings of $500 per household giving people more money to spend on Christmas presents. This week Wall Street focused on the negative side. Alison Kosik, CNN, New York.

CABRERA: More time and more money for presents. Thanks, Alison.

Senate Democrats ripped that CIA torture report saying agents never got useful information out of it. But the CIA says that is not the case. We're going to talk to a former CIA agent and what he has to say next.

First our look into the future, this week, renewable energy in the sky. Here is Richard Quest.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RICHARD QUEST, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For centuries the humble windmill has been used for pumping water and grinding grain. Its role grew when the wind turbine was created. Today, around 2.5 percent of the world's electricity is produced by wind.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are 30 times more efficient than decades ago because of the use of innovation in computer technologies.

QUEST: Squeezing more energy out of thin air involves equipping the turbines with lasers that allows them to communicate with each other operators keep a watchful eye in high-tech control centers. Like this one in San Diego.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We can then communicate with the utilities so that they can effectively manage wind onto the grid.

CABRERA: Worldwide, there are now more than 200,000 turbines. The future is to take wind energy to new heights. Imagine if we could untether the turbine and send it up into the air where it could then adjust its location and catch the strongest winds. In Boston, they are preparing one such structure called the bat.

BEN GLASS, CEO, ALBATROSS EXERCISES: Going up to 8,000 feet you have typically around eight times as much power available in those winds than closer to the ground.

QUEST: Hope to launch the first bat in Alaska in 2015. Targeting remote areas where energy is elusive and expensive.

GLASS: I think it has the potential to transform those communities.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN BRENNAN, CIA DIRECTOR: I certainly agree that there were times when CIA officers exceed the policy guidance that was given and the authorized techniques that were approved and determined to be lawful.

They went outside of the bounds in terms of their actions as part of that interrogation process. And they were harsh, as I said in some instance I consider them abhorrent.

And I will leave to others how they might want to label those activities. But for me it was something that is certainly regrettable but we are not a perfect institution.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: That was CIA Director John Brennan in a rare live news conference earlier this week explaining how some interrogations techniques went too far. He goes on to defend the enhanced interrogation technique saying that they helped to get information about Osama Bin Laden.

We're joined by Mike Baker. Mike, thanks for coming on with us this morning. Do you think it was a good idea to release that Senate intelligence committee's report?

MIKE BAKER, FORMER CIA COVERT OPERATIONS OFFICER: Well, I think it's always a good idea to have these discussions about policies and activities. It is important. It is who we are as a country. Releasing the report -- yes, I think it would have been a good idea if it had been a thorough investigative objective review where you followed standard investigative procedures.

Gather up all the people that you can. Troll through all those documents but then take the documents and sit down with people in the administration, the agency and military and whatever and say OK, tell me about this. Defend this.

What does this mean? What are you talking about here? Get the knowledge from the people. That is an investigation. What we've got unfortunately is a misinterpretation and a flawed report.

CABRERA: And other people mention this is flawed because in part members of the CIA who participated in these methods weren't actually interviewed as part of this investigation. So is it possible you think that the people who put together this report got it wrong?

BAKER: Well, in the sense that -- look, again there is value in doing what they did. I don't know if there ease almost $50 million worth of value here. Over are program that we have to remember ended ten years ago investigated twice by Obama's DOJ. Memos released the debate over time.

So OK fine another pious self phalangelation moment that I don't know has any purpose to it. If you are going to do this, then yes you have to gather all the information you can. If you are going to say here is a report that reviews a period of time that's important to our history to it. And this falls well short of a thorough review.

CABRERA: In the same token Brennan did go on to admit that certain techniques were taken too far. He didn't necessarily say it was torture, all though the president has used the word torture. But some of the details in this report are so disturbing. We're talking about water boarding and rectal rehydration just to name a couple of the techniques.

Help us to understand how this happen, why your perhaps former colleagues would participate in these type of things. That to many of the average Joe sound inhumane.

BAKER: And you are out the crux of the argument here that's been going on for years. There is the camp that says the enhanced interrogation techniques, well they don't exist. That is torture. Quit with the wording. But then there is a lot of people, let's look the enhance interrogation techniques, the sensory deprivation sleep, the waterboarding we are talking about. We put our own people through in training programs, that they serve a purpose. Is discussion is always been over simplified.

So it becomes either all of or all of that. The truth is resides as it usually does in the middle. Talking to a detainee, doing the usually traditional interrogation of rapport building, of bridge building of reciprocity, gifting, whatever you want to call it, which was done the vast majority of times during the course of this program.

CABRERA: And apparently it did gleam information.

BAKER: Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. This is my point. Sometimes the enhanced interrogation techniques work. Sometimes they don't to. Say in absolute fashion that the interrogation program, as it stood, as it was, you know, built from scratch essentially never produced any valuable intelligence torques say that in absolutist fashion without looking at totality of the program is just flat out wrong.

CABRERA: But do you know for sure that these interrogation techniques worked?

BAKER: Again, sometimes they do. Sometimes they don't. The point -- look this is messy and uncomfortable. And now we're in a point where yes, OK, he administration would rather fire a missile up the tail pipe of some target that be go to the hard difficult work of capturing that target and gathering the intelligence.

We have to figure where to we hold them so how do we deal with them? OK, final. If what you are saying it's more ethical to just light up the target so we don't have to deal with this, then I guess. I don't understand that positioning.

That the reality is, when you have an interrogation situation, the point is to make the detainee compliant. Again people get uncomfortable with all of this. You do that through traditional methods of talking, all those things I talked about.

But to have in your kit bag the element of the unknown, which would be the enhanced techniques used in proper controlled fashion and again it wasn't perfect program and there were problems.

CABRERA: We hear what you're saying -- and we know it's a complex situation.

BAKER: It's a very complex situation.

CABRERA: And the debate continues. Thank you for being part of it.

BAKING: Thank you.

CABRERA: Up next, was a U.S. prison camp in Iraq a breeding ground for ISIS? There are disturbing new findings in a new report, coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: A chilling new report is out about the U.S. prison camp in Iraq, Camp Buka. It began as a holding cell for prisoners, but we are also learning how it became a breeding ground for terrorists, including the notorious Abu Bakr Al Baghdadi, the leader of ISIS. CNN's Brian Todd reports.

BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): He may be the most vicious terrorist leader in recent years, possibly more brutal than Bin Laden. Now, a former inmate at a U.S.-run prison camp in Iraq, says ISIS Leader Abu Bakr Al Baghdadi, the man behind scores of ISIS beheadings, was once a trusted inmate by his American captors, allowed to roam freely around the camp.

MARTIN CHULOV, CORRESPONDENT, "THE GUARDIAN": The Americans seem to see Abu Bakr as somebody who could keep the prison quiet. There are 24 camps within the Sunni side of the camp and he was allowed access to all of them.

TODD: "Guardian" reporter, Martin Chulov interviewed a senior ISIS commander. He calls Abu Ahmed, not his real name. He told Chulov, Baghdadi was a fixer at the camp. Quote, "He was respected very much by the U.S. Army. Abu Bakr Al Baghdadi, he said, was seen by other detainees as clever, scheming, quote, using a policy of conquer and divide to get what he wanted.

A U.S. intelligence official tells us, Baghdadi built street cred inside Buka. Baghdadi and other jihadists at this American prison were not always segregated, allowed to meet freely to plot, and they had an ingenious way of communicating.

CHULOV: He and others were able to write their contact details on the white elastics of their boxer shorts, prison-issued boxer shorts, and that was a way that they networked. And when they got out of prison, they had phone numbers and details of fathers, uncles villages.

TODD: Abu Ahmed depicts Abu Bakr as the management school for ISIS leaders. If there was no American prison in Iraq, there would be no Islamic state now.

CHULOV: A good level came from Buka. Because, you know, tens of thousands of people were held in Buka, over the years. And so, just when they got out, they had little to do, and they had these wished networks and it's clear that they had done their homework in the prison.

TODD: And as he left, according to a former camp commander, Abu Bakr Al Baghdadi had a chilling parting shot.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He looked over to us, and as he left, he said, see you guys in New York. TODD: Responding to the camps that Camp Buka was a breeding ground for is, where jihadists could strategize, a Pentagon official told CNN, quote, these types of detentions are common practice during armed conflict.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TODD: U.S. commanders tried to separate the most violent hard-core inmates. But they said Buka was packed with detainees. The army was short staffed, and no one at the time thought Abu Bakr Al Baghdadi would go on to do what he's doing now. A U.S. intelligence official tells us, camp buka was not a turning point for Baghdadi. Brian Todd, CNN, Washington.

CABRERA: Wow, so interesting.

Minutes from now in Washington, protesters will march to the U.S. capitol, calling for justice after the recent police killings of unarmed African-Americans. We will go there live at the top of the hour, as soon as we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)