Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Ben Carson Claims Being Gay A Choice

Aired March 04, 2015 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Happening now in the NEWSROOM, did Iran nuke talks just hit a wall? The two points holding up a deal and why one former inspector says it would be too dangerous to lift sanctions at this point.

Plus, systemic discrimination against blacks in Ferguson, Missouri. Alarming arrest rates, racist jokes and that's not all that was uncovered in a Justice Department civil rights investigation.

Plus this --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BEN CARSON, POTENTIAL REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE: A lot of people who go into prison go into prison straight and when they come out, they're gay.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Yes, he went there. Potential presidential candidate Dr. Ben Carson says being gay is a choice. Doesn't prison prove that?

Let's talk. Live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

And good morning. I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me.

The deadline less than a month away and two significant differences slowing nuclear talks between the United States and Iran. A source with knowledge of the negotiations tells CNN that there was little progress today.

CNN's Frederik Pleitgen is in the Iranian capital of Tehran with more.

Hi, Fred.

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Carol. And it's not only the fact that it's two issues -- two areas where there are still issues between the two sides but it's actually two very major areas. But one is research and development of Iran's nuclear program. In that respect the Iranians would like to develop better centrifuges in order to enrich uranium. The U.S. wants to stop them from doing that.

Now the big question is to what sort of capabilities are they going to be able to upgrade, what is the U.S. going to allow them to do? Clearly the U.S. has the fear that if the Iranians are able to develop better centrifuges and more centrifuges that there's so-called breakout capability which would be the time that it would take Iran to make a nuclear weapon after ditching any sort of agreement that was reached, could be too short in the view of the United States as well as the other partners that are negotiating as well.

The other major sticking point appears to be, Carol, the sanctions relief. This is something that's very key to the Iranian side. They, of course, would like all sanctions to be lifted as fast as possible. The U.S. apparently is saying it can lift some of the sanctions but certainly not all of them at once. It believes that all this needs to be a step by step process. And the sanctions really are key to many people here in Iran.

So this is two major sticking points that could still make things very difficult, and as you said, Carol, time certainly is running out for the negotiators.

COSTELLO: Frederik Pleitgen reporting live from Iran this morning.

My next guest is an expert in these matters. Charles Duelfer is a former chief weapons inspector for the United Nations. He spent more than 25 years in Washington's National Security Agency including the CIA. He joins us now from Washington.

Welcome, sir.

CHARLES DUELFER, FORMER CHIEF WEAPONS INSPECTOR, UNSCOM: Good morning, Carol.

COSTELLO: Thank you for being here. This is what we're trying to make sense of. Mr. Netanyahu said yesterday this is why the American- led deal is so bad. Quote, "It doesn't block Iran's path to the bomb. It paves Iran's path to the bomb." Does it? DUELFER: Well, here's what hasn't happened. It was hoped that Iran

would look at the opportunity of re-entry into the rest of the world, the open economy, and say, OK, that's worth it. I'll give up my nuclear weapons program and take the benefit of being re-integrated with the international community. They haven't done that. It's clear from their negotiating position that they wish to retain as much as possible of their nuclear weapons program.

The discussions now have been, can we shorten the lead time or extend the lead time that it would take them once they make a decision to actually build a bomb. So the sadness in all this is that Iran hasn't decided to give up its nuclear weapons program. They want to get out of sanctions. They want the sanctions lifted but they want to have the potential to build a bomb in some period of time should they make that decision.

COSTELLO: OK. Let's --

(CROSSTALK)

COSTELLO: Let's talk about -- let's talk about that side of the issue because Mr. Netanyahu also said some pretty scary stuff. He claims Iran could legitimately possess 190,000 centrifuges enriching uranium by the end of this long-term nuclear agreement. Now Iran has, what, 19,000 centrifuges now? So is that possible? Could Iran accumulate all that even with a 10-year deal in place?

DUELFER: That's what the leadership has said in Iran that they want to do. It's tough to really focus on these individual numbers like the number of centrifuges because, you know, the centrifuges, and as was reported from Tehran just now, your previous reporter, you know, it's the quality of the centrifuges which will make a difference.

You know, in all of this we're talking about buying time. Can we defer the Iranian capability until presumably there's some of change of heart or change of government in Tehran. And two paths are one is, you know, can we have an agreement, which will allow intrusive inspections and the international community could monitor it, or do we keep sanctions on and slow the Iranians down that way?

That seems to be the big debate right now. Part of that implies some degree of assessment on the intentions of Iran, and right now the intentions of Iran are pretty clear. They want the capability to build a weapon on as short a fuse as possible.

COSTELLO: So is negotiating this deal a waste of time?

DUELFER: No. It's something that has to be done because, you know, a negotiated deal, which is in fact good and where Iran really does make a commitment to a peaceful path, you know, that's obviously the preferred outcome. But, you know, once you begin negotiations, you kind of get sucked into it and you want to carry it forward and at some point you've got to make a tough decision whether that path is the wrong path and, you know, as Secretary Kerry has said, we don't see the full deal yet.

So we have to kind of suspend judgment for a bit. Netanyahu has made up -- you know he's predicting where this is going to land. But you know, I'd say the odds are that any deal that looks to be coming forward is going to be pretty wobbly.

COSTELLO: All right. Charles Duelfer, thank you for your insight. We sure appreciate it.

DUELFER: Thank you.

COSTELLO: You're welcome.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, an investigation uncovers widespread discrimination in Ferguson, Missouri. What it means for a community already divided by racial tension next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: A pattern and practice of discrimination against African- Americans and racial jokes against President Obama. Those are just some of the disturbing new findings from a federal investigation into the Ferguson Police Department. This nearly seven months after unarmed teenager Michael Brown was shot and killed by a white police officer. Brown's death, as you know, sparked months of protests between members of the community and local police.

So let's talk more about this Justice report. CNN's Sara Sidner is in Ferguson this morning.

Tell us more.

SARA SIDNER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, Carol, the residents here who have been dealing with this, the African-American residents in particular, say, look, the numbers don't lie.

What are those numbers? Well, the Department of Justice is expected to put them all down in the report and they really are focusing on traffic stop, saying there was racial bias on the part of the police and the courts in the way they handled this. And let me let you listen to what some of those numbers are.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SIDNER (voice-over): The Department of Justice final report expected to focus in on patterns of racial bias and traffic stops in Ferguson, Missouri. In Ferguson from 2012 to 2014 while 67 percent of the population was black, 85 percent of people subject to vehicle stops by Ferguson Police were black. And 90 percent of those who received citations were black.

And even though blacks were twice as likely to be searched during traffic stops than whites, they were actually less likely to have contraband on them.

Investigators also found evidence of racist jokes being sent around in e-mails by either Ferguson Police or in the court system. One e-mail from November of 2008 mentioned President Obama saying he wouldn't be in office long because what black man holds a steady job for four years?

Reaction to that from a member of the governor's Ferguson Commission was swift.

TRACI BLACKMON, FERGUSON COMMISSION MEMBER: If they would say that about the president of the United States, what do you think they would say about poor black men and poor black women living in a racialized area of this city? It is disgusting. And it should be dealt with harshly.

SIDNER: Ferguson city officials say they have been cooperating with the DOJ and are still reviewing the findings. They will make a statement later on.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SIDNER: And, you know, we know from some of the folks who have been watching what's been happening here in Ferguson who live here in Ferguson and a part of the commission, they have said that they think first off that the chief should resign. They've been asking for that for quite some time, as you know, Carol. But also that potentially the department should be disbanded. There's

been a lot of talk about that. But there are other folks who are saying if the department is disbanded, what are they going to be replaced with? That there are issues in cities all around Ferguson including St. Louis. So there is a lot of talk about how to go forward and how to get this community into a situation where it can heal and things can kind of move on.

But there's a lot of work to be done. And I think just about everyone believes that including the officials here -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Just about everyone believes that.

Sara Sidner, thanks so much.

Earlier I spoke with Jeff Roorda of the St. Louis Police Officer's Association. He's a former Missouri State representative who's locally supported Missouri Police and their tactics. I asked him if he feels the FBI's report or the Justice Department's report shows a real problem in Ferguson.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEFF ROORDA, BUSINESS MANAGER, ST. LOUIS POLICE OFFICERS ASSOCIATION: Well, they show that we have a larger problem in America and that is that -- that people that are -- that are trapped in economic disparity and -- are more likely to come in contact with the police, are very often African-Americans and we're not going to solve the problems of Ferguson or any other community like it in the United States by not -- not having a frank discussion about what the real problems are with economic disparities.

COSTELLO: So there should be no firings in Ferguson? No one should step down? What should happen? Nothing should happen?

ROORDA: Well, certainly the people that wrote those two very crass, tasteless e-mails should face some discipline. Yes, well, you know we're just seeing the numbers and of course the numbers are meant to turn our heads. We didn't see --

COSTELLO: No, they're not meant to turn our heads. This was after going through 35,000 pages of police documents. It's not to turn our heads. --

ROORDA: But then why not release -- then why not release the whole report instead of leaking out the most damning numbers which is the Justice Department's pattern and practice?

COSTELLO: The Justice Department will release the entire report later today.

ROORDA: Right.

COSTELLO: I just think we got a lead on the information and we're releasing that part of it.

ROORDA: Right. But -- but we ought to be careful to wait for the full report and see what these numbers mean in full context.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: So let's talk about this with legal analyst and former federal prosecutor Sunny Hostin.

Sunny, thanks for being here.

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Sure.

COSTELLO: And --

(LAUGHTER)

HOSTIN: I mean, it's always shocking to me when people say we don't know all the facts. We've got to wait for more numbers. Do you really think that the full report is going to be less damning than some of the statistics that have been released? I mean, you know, that's sort of the let's hide our head in the sand defense. And that just doesn't really make sense.

Having been to Ferguson, right, covering this case, I will tell you I was not surprised at these stats because resident after resident after resident came up to me and complained about those traffic stops oddly enough. And also even the sort of rental agent that rented me my car when I was in Ferguson said I hope things will change now that you're here, Sunny, and CNN is here because, you know, they ticket us all the time and then when we don't -- when we have to work and so we can't show up to court, we get warrants out for our arrest and the penalties are --

(CROSSTALK)

COSTELLO: Well, Jeffrey Toobin brought something interesting. He said on "NEW DAY" that this is a problem across the country.

HOSTIN: Sure.

COSTELLO: And that police departments kind of use these traffic stops as a way to raise revenues so taxes won't have to be raised and African-Americans are unfairly targeted pretty much everywhere.

HOSTIN: Well, you know, I know that this is a real issue. But it certainly seems to be a significantly bigger issue in Ferguson and it certainly -- the Department of Justice has the finest investigators in the world quite frankly has determined that it was based on racial bias. I mean, that really says something. It says that the protesters certainly were protesting for the right reasons. That this is a real issue and that something needs to be done.

I think that there needs to be a change in leadership and that generally happens when the Justice Department steps in and says this is a problem. And I also think --

COSTELLO: Because the police chief in Ferguson has refused to step down. He says he's trying to change the culture. He says he's really trying.

HOSTIN: This happened on his watch. And let's face, we've interviewed him many, many times. And he has said there is no racial problem in Ferguson. And you've got these e-mails floating around. So it's -- there's a systemic endemic culture there at the department that needs to be changed.

I do think that while we're expected to hear the Justice Department can't bring charges against Officer Wilson, the standard in the federal court system is very, very high when it comes to bringing a civil rights case. But I think that we have to look at this report and realize that Officer Wilson stopped initially, he says he stopped Michael Brown because he was jaywalking. 95 percent of the jaywalking citations in Ferguson the Department of Justice found were for African-Americans.

And so I think it may be time to revisit the state action in Ferguson and I wonder if we're going got see perhaps another grand jury convened, perhaps some prosecutorial misconduct, you know, investigation done for Bob McCullough, because this type of racism seems to go all the way up. And I can't imagine that it didn't extend to the prosecutor's office.

COSTELLO: Well, we'll see what happens later today when the full report is released.

Sunny Hostin, thanks as usual. I appreciate it.

HOSTIN: You bet.

COSTELLO: Still to come in the NEWSROOM, if Ben Carson wants to be president, will statements like this help?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARSON: A lot of people who go into prison go into prison straight and when they come out they're gay. So did something happen while they were in there?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Dr. Ben Carson is a presidential contender and as commander-in-chief it would be his duty to represent all Americans fairly. And I would assume that includes gay Americans. But this morning on "NEW DAY," Dr. Carson, a Tea Party favorite said, quote, "A lot of people go into prison straight and when they come out, they're gay." He did not clarify if that included rape in prison. He did not cite any study or statistics that proved that claim.

Listen to the entire exchange on "NEW DAY."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR, "NEW DAY": You think being gay is a choice? CARSON: Absolutely.

CUOMO: Why do you say that?

CARSON: Because a lot of people who go into prison go into prison straight and when they come out, they're gay. Ask yourself that question.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Most gays never go to prison. And you know there's a whole theory of dominance.

CARSON: Wait a minute. I said a lot of people who go in come out -- are you denying that that's true? No, you're not.

CUOMO: I am not denying that that's true.

CARSON: OK, but --

CUOMO: But I am denying that that's a basis of understanding homosexuality.

CARSON: If, in fact, that is the case, then it obviously thwarts what you just said.

CUOMO: A lot of people go into jail as a drug addict and they come out as a criminal. Does that mean that all drug addicts are criminals?

CARSON: Here's what's important. Why do gay people want to get married? Why do they says they want to get married?

CUOMO: That is a -- that is a really bizarre question. I don't know but they've got the right to.

CARSON: Because they want to have various rights.

CUOMO: No, they want commitment.

CARSON: Property rights.

CUOMO: That's right.

CARSON: Visitation rights.

CUOMO: They want their commitment to count just like mine and my wife's.

CARSON: Why can't any two human beings -- I don't care what their sexual orientation is, why can't they have the legal right to do those things?

CUOMO: That's what they're fighting for.

CARSON: OK. That does not require changing the definition of marriage.

CUOMO: But it would require covering that union, as you do others, which is called -- which is called marriage in our society.

CARSON: I don't think so.

CUOMO: Well, that's what's working its way through the courts right now.

Dr. Ben Carson, good luck to you going forward and thank you for answering the questions about the issues of the day.

CARSON: Thank you. My pleasure.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: You know, I always like to deal in facts. So let's talk about facts with Jason Rahlan, the human rights -- from the Human Rights Campaign and CNN political commentator and Republican strategist Ana Navarro.

Welcome to both of you.

JASON RAHLAN, COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, HUMAN RIGHTS CAMPAIGN: Thank you.

ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Good morning, Carol.

COSTELLO: You know, Jason, I -- good morning, Ana.

Jason, I just -- how did you feel when you heard Ben Carson say that?

RAHLAN: I felt a lot of different emotions to be honest with you. You know, Ben Carson's comments this morning were jaw-droppingly bizarre, uninformed and fundamentally dangerous. And certainly unbecoming of any presidential aspirant.

You know, Gallup tells us that while nine in 10 Americans know an LGBT person, we released a poll last week that said roughly half of the country know a same-sex couple who's LGBT. That tells that an overwhelming majority of Americans, when think of LGBT people, they think of their brothers and sisters, their cousins and neighbors. And they come from a place of inclusion, love and acceptance, while Ben Carson, when he thinks of LGBT people, his mind goes to maximum security prison.

COSTELLO: Yes. And let's just concentrate on what he said that you could go into prison and come out gay. The American Psychological Association says, quote, "Most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation." That's just a fact from the American Psychological Association.

So, why, Ana -- why does Ben Carson insist on saying being gay is a choice? He's a doctor.

NAVARRO: Carol, you are really making my teeth hurt this morning. You know, I've got to -- I've got to think that having this conversation on national TV is going to get us indicted for sodomy in some states.

Look, let me begin by saying that I support marriage equality. I am one of more than 250 Republicans, prominent Republicans who have signed an amicus brief that's going to be filed with the Supreme Court this week in support of the case that's going to be heard there this year.

I think there is a larger number of Republicans that, like Democrats, are evolving on this issue and we are seeing a lot of changes on this.

I think Jason is right. And I think most people who look at this issue come at it from what they know. I can tell you I have a lot of gay friends who would beat me with a stick if I came on national TV and said that being gay is a choice. They've shared their life stories with me. I know that's not the case.

But I also recognize that even though what Ben Carson said sounds like fifty shades of crazy to me, I recognize that there is a group of people in this country and around the world, Republicans, Democrats, that for religious reasons, cultural reasons, generational reasons do think it is a choice. And I think it's up to those who think differently and know differently to frankly share the stories with them.

COSTELLO: But that fact that pool of people is ever shrinking in the United States. And I'm going to throw out some more statistics because like I said I want to deal in facts.

Pew found 61 percent of young Republicans were in favor of gay marriage. 77 percent of young Democrats. When you span that to all voters, it's 54 percent in favor of gay marriage.

I mean, Jason, it's clear the tide had turned. I'll give you another example. CPAC, really conservative, right? Log cabin Republicans for the first time in CPAC's history, invited someone from the Log Cabin Republicans to speak.

Times are changing, Jason, aren't they?

RAHLAN: They are changing. And someone needs to tell Ben Carson that. You know, one of the challenges that we face with his comments is that, you know, as you mentioned, the American Medical Association, American Psychological Association, American Psychiatric Association, every major medical organization has said what Dr. Carson said is wrong. But they also say, in speaking with one clear voice, is that they're dangerous.

Implying that someone can choose or change their sexual orientation or gender identity is dangerous. It is at the core of so-called reparative or conversion therapy in which debunks scientists and so- called therapists tell LGBT people that if they try hard enough they can change who they are.

California, New Jersey, and the District of Columbia have banned those practices. In part because of how dangerous they are. That's something -- that's something that is critically important in Dr. Carson's comments.

You know, as I understand right now based on research that we've compiled, only one candidate that is considering a run for president on the Republican side, Governor Chris Christie, has said affirmatively that he believes that LGBT people are born that way.

COSTELLO: Is that true, Ana?

NAVARRO: Well, I think -- I think most of them have not been asked the question and have not said it affirmatively as Jason said I think because most of them are talking and trying to talk about other issue that are of national importance.

One of the things that I think you saw with Ben Carson today is that he has not run for office before. This is the first time that he's doing an exploratory committee and that he's going down this path. And so what was a question on gay marriage and religious rights went down a -- you know, frankly really kind of crazy path that if he were a candidate with more experience may not have happened.

COSTELLO: All right. I have to leave it there. Thanks to you both, Ana Navarro, Jason Rahlan. I appreciate it.

RAHLAN: Thank you.

COSTELLO: Still to come in the NEWSROOM, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu gives Iran a warning.

Why some top Democrats say his speech is nothing but fear mongering. We'll talk about that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)