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Examining the Hernandez Trial; Race for 2016; Top Terrorist Leader Killed in Iraq. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired April 17, 2015 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:05] DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN HOST: And I want you to listen to something else that the jurors said. one of the most compelling parts of the trial really was when the Patriots' owner, Robert Kraft, took the stand and he says that Hernandez said to him that he wasn't guilty because the timing of Lloyd's murder -- he says, well, I couldn't have done it, I was at a club. Let's to what one of the jurors said about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JON CARLSON, HERNANDEZ TRIAL JUROR: When Bob Kraft had -- had testified that Aaron had came in, seen him the day after the incident -- or that he went to go see Aaron the day after the incident and asked him if he did it, and Aaron said, no, I'm completely innocent. In fact, I hope that the time that Odin was murdered is made public because at that time I was at a club. Even after a professional medical examiner conducted an autopsy, he couldn't conclude the exact time that Odin was murdered. So two years ago, how would Aaron have that information, especially if he wasn't involved? So, for me, that -- that was important.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FEYERICK: And, Danny Cevallos, interesting, if he wasn't involved, how would he have absolutely known that he was just simply not there, that he was at a club? Again, it seems that that was a big nail in the coffin as part of also this kind of cover-up.

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It does. And it's always fascinating what jurors seize on. They didn't pay as much attention to the video of the prosecution saying there's a big heavy box and there's a gun in there. You've got to believe us. Instead, they focused on this.

And there's an old saying that jurors like to discover things, think they arrived at a conclusion by themselves. And I think when they see Hernandez making just such a colossal blunder, at least in evidence, saying that, oh, at the time, I was at a club, I think the jurors feel more comfortable hanging liability on a defendant who says something that appears so galactically stupid.

FEYERICK: Right. And those are the things, it appears he took care of terms of what was going to go down, but certainly not enough.

All right, Danny Cevallos, Dan Schorr, we thank you both for your time.

You can catch more of Anderson Cooper's interview tonight on "AC 360" at 8:00 p.m. Eastern. I'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:36:5] FEYERICK: And checking top stories.

A bipartisan effort on Capitol Hill may soon force a vote on Loretta Lynch, President Obama's nominee for attorney general. The nomination has stretched for weeks because Democrats oppose an anti-abortion measure tacked on to a human trafficking bill. A senior Republican aide says that abortion language could be tweaked so enough Democrats can support the bill and clear the way for the vote on Lynch.

The Missouri National Guard used terms like "enemy forces" and "adversaries" to describe protesters in Ferguson, Missouri, last year. This adding fuel to criticism of the militarized response to the unrest after the deadly police shooting of unarmed teenager Michael Brown. Documents obtained by CNN also reveal National Guard leadership tapped down the militarized language following the deployment.

And Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson says a Florida man who landed his gyrocopter on the Capitol lawn this week literally flew under the radar. Doug Hughes now facing two federal charges after appearing in court Thursday. He could spend up to four years behind bars. Hughes says he pulled off the brazen stunt to protest campaign finance laws.

New Hampshire's crucial primary may be more than nine months away, but for Republicans who want to be president, oh, it's go time. They are visiting. And a majority of the field, some who have declared for 2016, others who have not, descend on the state for a leadership summit this weekend. Ted Cruz, Rand Paul and Marco Rubio among those confirmed to speak. Another attendee, Jeb Bush, getting a head start at a dinner last night where he responded to critics who worry about another Bush in the White House.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEB BUSH (R), FORMER FLORIDA GOVERNOR: I have to prove that I'm not running for president if I go beyond the consideration of this to being an active candidate, trying to break the tie between the Adams family and the Bush family. It's not -- that's not my -- it really isn't my motivation. But I have to prove that.

First and foremost, I've got to show my heart. Secondly, I have to show that I have ideas that make it possible for America to rise up again. And, third, I have to show that I have the leadership skills, not just to yap about it but to do it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FEYERICK: And here to discuss with us, Jason Johnson, political science professor at Hiram College and Politics, and editor for "The Source" magazine, as well as Tara Setmayer, CNN political commentator and Republican strategist.

So, Jason, Bush seemingly admitting that he's going to have to overcome perceptions about his family. Though I found it very interesting that he compared his family to the Adams family and not another dynasty like, I don't know, the Kennedys perhaps, you know --

JASON JOHNSON, POLITICAL SCIENCE PROFESSOR, HIRAM COLLEGE: Right. Exactly. Or the Gores.

FEYERICK: Or the Gores. Exactly. So how is he going to break through and sort of dismiss that concern?

JOHNSON: Well, I think he's doing a great job already. He doesn't have the suit on. He's got the sleeves rolls up. He talked about the fact that he drives himself to Chipotle instead of being driven there like Hillary Clinton did. So I think Bush is really going for the, I'm a regular guy, I've been out in the real world for the last 14 years. That's how he's going to counter the dynasty talk.

FEYERICK: OK. So, Tara, a globe -- a "Boston Globe" reporter had this to say. "The one person looming over this entire two-day weekend is Hillary Clinton." So how do they deal with her?

TARA SETMAYER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think you've already seen -- you've seen this start already. And it started with Marco Rubio's announcement on Monday, which was an amazing contrast and the juxtaposition of today versus very yesterday, and he even used those words. It's pretty much the beginning of what you're going to see when it comes to Republicans going after Hillary because now that Hillary has officially announced, it's about her, not so much President Obama so much anymore, because he's really yesterday's news. He's on his way out.

So what you're going to see this weekend, I think, is, a lot of the -- you're not -- I don't think you're going to see the 11th commandment broken of, you know, you don't go after your fellow Republicans too much.

FEYERICK: Right.

[09:40:00] SETMAYER: You'll see a little -- you'll see vailed shots if somebody needs to emerge and they want to have their own identities because there's 19 of them that are going to be there. But I think you're going to see Hillary Clinton be the center of those attacks versus each other in this weekend.

FEYERICK: So it's very safe? And so there's a little bit of a feeding frenzy?

SETMAYER: Oh, yes. It's friendly territory.

FEYERICK: What's interesting -- and I do want to show that, you know, we have those Republican candidates who are up and what many people -- obviously the post popular get the most press, but it's interesting because there are at least 20 people in the GOP, almost 20 people, who have actually declared that they want to run. Do any of them -- will any of them succeed in getting the kind of traction they need to be more relevant after the weekend than perhaps they are going into the weekend?

JOHNSON: I think John Kasich and Kelly Ayotte and some of these candidates are making a great run for VP. And that's eventually what they're doing.

Look, everybody knows who the top tiers candidates are, it's Scott Walker, it's Jeb Bush, maybe even Marco Rubio. Those are the guys who are probably going to be able to get the most money, the more attention. Everybody else is hoping, look, if somebody at the top stumbles, I can run and jump ahead of them or maybe I can get on the ticket or a new administration.

FEYERICK: So this is basically how high you go essentially, Tara.

JOHNSON: Exactly.

SETMAYER: Yes. And not necessarily -- I think that now those are probably the frontrunners now, but things change so quickly. And a breakout performance here or there can bump someone up or down rather quickly. Like Scott Walker was kind of -- people -- there were murmuring of him as being a potential candidate and -- but people thought his charisma lacked and that he just didn't have it in, you know, the fire in the belly, until the Iowa summit, the Iowa Freedom Summit, which happened in January, where he had a spectacular performance by most peoples' standards and it showed a side of him that those -- those who were skeptical of him said, oh my goodness, this guy actually does some personality, he's got a great message, and maybe he needs a shot. And that propelled him going into CPAC. It gave him some momentum into CPAC and now into this event where he has the key -- basically the keynote speaking spot. He's closing this conference.

FEYERICK: Right.

SETMAYER: So that was a result of his performance last time. And he wasn't considered a top tier before that.

FEYERICK: So the Republicans go home, they got a great weekend and then who comes in just to sort of make things a little different is Hillary Clinton, because she's expected to be back then on Monday. And it's interesting because she said that in 2008 it was New Hampshire that really helped her find her voice and rebound against the candidate, Barack Obama.

JOHNSON: Right.

FEYERICK: So do you think -- you know, what -- how does this strategically work? OK, the Republicans leave, then she comes in, you know, and it's because New Hampshire's so important. What do -- what do we see going on here?

JOHNSON: Well, this is also Hillary Clinton recognizing that, you know, she gets to set this narrative. OK. There's 19 Republicans. They are going to take some shots at each other. They are still -- they are crabs in a barrel right now. Hillary gets to come in and say, I'm above the fray. Oh, oh, New Hampshire, I'm just dropping by. I just wanted to talk to you about what I'm going to do for health care.

FEYERICK: (INAUDIBLE).

JOHNSON: Yes, just right on my way back to Washington, D.C. So this is a perfect opportunity. She is basically going to be trailing them throughout most of this campaign and showing up as the calm, relaxed person after sort of the scrum.

FEYERICK: Oh.

SETMAYER: Well, she's got a lot of work to do if he -- if what happened, the disaster that was her Scooby Doo van trip in Iowa is any indication of what she's going to be doing in these little small, controlled, wag the dog type settings in New Hampshire, the people in New Hampshire are sophisticated enough to know what's authentic and what isn't, and they're not going -- they're going to look and her and say, wait, we want -- we want to know what's real, you know? If you're going to continue to manufacture all of these and control these events, I don't think that's going to go over very well for the folks in New Hampshire and she knows it. So if she's -- when she goes there in these small settings, she better -- she better learn they -- her folks better teach her how to be a little bit more authentic and not control it so much or else it's going to continue to be almost the butt of many jokes, which you've seen all week long.

FEYERICK: OK, well, the best quotes today, crabs in a barrel, Scooby Doo van.

SETMAYER: That sums it up.

FEYERICK: All right, Tara Setmayer, Jason Johnson, we really appreciate both of you being here for us. And, of course, we are going to be talking to you a lot more over the coming months leading up to the election.

SETMAYER: Absolutely.

FEYERICK: I will be right back. Thanks.

[09:43:50]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

FEYERICK: And we have some breaking news right now. The mastermind of the Islamic State in Iraq has been killed. Izzat al-Douri was a prominent foreign aid to the late Iraqi president Saddam Hussein. His killing is considered a blow to ISIS. He was killed in a widescale military operation. He was in the infamous deck of cards put out back in 2003, 2004, prior to the capture of Saddam Hussein. He is considered a major player.

I want to bring in Colonel Peter Mansoor, who is with us. Colonel, how important to the dynamic in the region is the killing of al-Douri?

COL. PETER MANSOOR, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, it's a significant blow to ISIS. What's made ISIS particularly lethal is its alliance that it formed with former Iraqi Baathists from Saddam Hussein's defeated army. And he's -- Ibrahim al-Douri was the senior surviving leader, a fairly good strategist. He was the king of clubs in the deck of cards. And to kill him is to kill perhaps one of the key masterminds of ISIS's campaign in Iraq.

FEYERICK: It's interesting, because there has been a discussion whether he was with ISIS, whether he was sort of with a break-away group, the Naqshbandi group. He is overall considered a terror leader, so when you talk about him being the mastermind of the Islamic State, talk to me about how that came to be?

MANSOOR: Well, he is the commander of the Army of the Men of the Naqshbandi. But that's a Baathist insurgent group, but they formed an alliance with ISIS. When al Qaeda in Iraq, the forerunner to ISIS, retreated into Syria, they formed an alliance with the Baathists and together they decided they would go back into Iraq, kick out the regime in Baghdad, and take over Iraq again. And it's this combination of former Baathists and Islamic militants that has made ISIS so potent compared to its predecessor.

FEYERICK: And so it's interesting because, obviously, after the fall of Saddam Hussein, many of his top leaders effectively were not only alienated from the government but they left and they formed their own, quote, unquote, government or terror group. What happens now? Is it like the ebb and flow of the ocean? Will somebody simply come in and replace him?

MANSOOR: Well, there will be a replacement. We've seen this before with the deaths of, killings of senior terror leaders. Someone else will step up, but whether the person that steps up is as competent as the person they replace remains to be seen.

[09:50:06] So you keep pecking away at the senior leadership and eventually hopefully you'll reduce competence of the people who remain and that's part of the campaign to defeat ISIS.

FEYERICK: And, again, just fascinating, as you say, that he was the king of clubs in that infamous U.S. deck of cards. Saddam Hussein obviously being the top person there.

I want to bring in Atika Shubert, who is joining us. And there's the picture of that famous card.

I want to bring in Atika Shubert, who is with us now. Atika, what are some of the details of how this went down? Who killed him?

ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We're still getting those details in. But it's been reported on Iraqi state TV. What we know is that Iraqi security forces were involved together with another militia conducting what they're describing as a surprise operation. Now, it happened in between Tikrit and Kirkuk at the Hamrin Mountains, which is interesting because it's sort of an area, it seems to be a bit more remote.

But it's not exactly clear what happened or how he was killed. All that we know it was in this surprise operation. Clearly for Iraqis they are saying that this is an important blow against ISIS and they're specifically saying, they are describing him as a terrorist. So they are making that link very clear.

FEYERICK: And it's interesting. Does he have any -- because you're right. Obviously as the one who created this particular state, he -- does he have any direct connection to al Baghdadi and the whole concept of creation of a caliphate? Or was he more focused on getting back Iraq, what was allegedly taken from the Sunnis under Hussein?

SHUBERT: Well, this is somebody who was Saddam Hussein's right hand man and really was a believer in the Baathist party of the Hussein regime. So for him it was really about reclaiming that. But what his role exactly has always been murky. He's almost been a mythical figure among the militias because he is this pedigree with Saddam Hussein regime.

Now, what was rumored was that some sort of an alliance was made with al Baghdadi and ISIS and this is what laid the groundwork for ISIS really being able to march through northern Iraq and eventually taking over Mosul. But in recent months there's been more reporting that whatever alliance was there, and it's not clear, may have started to fray. There are reports of infighting between groups led by al-Douri for example and other groups led by ISIS. So it's not clear how much sway he had with ISIS at this point.

FEYERICK: And, Colonel, I want to bring you back in as well on this particular subject. So the different groups, for some it's hard to keep track of, to figure out who is winning and who is losing? Where do you see winners and losers in this?

MANSOOR: The alliance between the Baathist, various Baathist insurgent groups, and ISIS was bound to fray because in the end they have different goals. ISIS wants a caliphate with Baghdadi at the head, and in the end I think the Baathists wanted Iraq back for themselves and they were using the jihadists as their tool to make that happen.

But now that this alliance is fraying, you're going to see infighting and perhaps you're going to see the capabilities of ISIS decline somewhat. But they are still a very lethal group and you'll see these various groups in these various areas fighting perhaps on their own without overarching coordination from Raqqa in Syria.

FEYERICK: So how -- when you talk about sort of the jihadists, sort of this -- there's obviously a lot of infighting. Are we going to see what amounts to a disintegration of any cohesiveness, of any unity, of any sort of master plan? Does that work in the United States' favor or does that create a situation that is more toxic in the Middle East than already exists? I'm going to start with you, Colonel. I'm going to end with Atika. Go ahead, Colonel.

MANSOOR: I think it works in our favor because it's easier to defeat this group a piece at a time. And as you begin to roll back ISIS, then they're going to start to turn on themselves. Who is at fault for the defeat? Why aren't we winning? Why aren't we advancing anymore. And as they turn in on themselves, then various parts of the Islamic State become vulnerable to attacks.

FEYERICK: All right. And Atika, what's your assessment of the situation? Just in terms of you saying they're fraying, the groups are fraying. So effectively how does it end?

SHUBERT: Well, we don't know how it ends. And ultimately what the United States has been pushing for is a political solution in which the Assad regime finds some way in Syria to stabilize that country, which allows therefore the situation in Iraq hopefully to be stabilized as well. But the fact is there are so many rebel groups and so many different insurgency groups now, ISIS is only one of those militant groups with a jihadist mission.

[09:55:05] Jabhat al Nusra, connected with al Qaeda, is very strong as well.

FEYERICK: It's also very interesting, the undercurrent of what both of you are saying is that, for both Syria and Iraq, the leaders sort of there. ISIS is really sort of a tool is I think what the colonel said to basically gain control or regain power.

All right. We want to thank Atika Shubert, Colonel Peter Mansoor. Thank you.

The next hour of CNN NEWSROOM begins after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FEYERICK: And now in the NEWSROOM, it can happen to anyone. Words from the Tulsa reserve deputy who mistook his gun for a taser. What he says happened in that deadly shooting.

Also, allegedly trained by terrorists. Sent home to carry out an attack on U.S. soil. An American citizen now charged. What we know about the alleged plot and possible targets.

Plus --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUROR: It was his indifference and that was part of what I had to look at.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FEYERICK: A CNN exclusive with the Hernandez trial jury. What they say pushed them to convict the former NFL star of murder.

[10:00:03] Let's talk in the CNN NEWSROOM.

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