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Deadly Biker Brawl; Gangs May Target Officers; Ramadi Falls to ISIS; U.S. Engages in Hand-To-Hand Combat with ISIS; Mansion Murders. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired May 18, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:05] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Wolf Blitzer, thank you. Great to be with you all on this Monday afternoon. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Want to begin with this biker brawl and gunfight, so chaotic investigators say they are still trying to figure out if the nine bikers killed were shot by other bikers or by police. And when you look at the weapons used here, not just guns, reportedly knives, clubs, chains, bats were all used. More than 100 weapons in total were confiscated. And here's another number for you, 170, as in 170 people arrested after police say at least five different biker gangs went at each other and police officers. This was Sunday in Waco, Texas. Police updated reporters just moments ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SGT. W. PATRICK SWANTON, WACO, TEXAS POLICE: Shots were fired inside the restaurant by rival biker gang members at each other. We had wounded inside. We had people stabbed, we had people shot, and we had people beat.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Caught in the midst of all of this, customers inside the businesses, at the marketplace where all of this happened. In fact, at the Twin Peaks restaurant, where this brawl began, one witness says she hid with others inside the freezer. Others peered through windows to see what was happening in the parking lot. This cell phone clip was posted online.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, someone's been shot.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Over there by the -

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They got everybody on the ground.

(CROSS TALK)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: With me now, Olivia Messer, a reporter from "The Waco Tribune-Herald."

Olivia, thank you so much for joining me. My goodness, what a night. I know you were at the scene for hours, you know, as this was all unfolding. Can you - could we just begin at the beginning? I mean how did this whole thing start and then wind up in that parking lot?

OLIVIA MESSER, REPORTER, "WACO TRIBUNE-HERALD": You know, police are mostly saying that it started in a bathroom and then spilled out into the bar and then into the parking lot and shots were fired kind of in all different locations. But, you know, I think when I talked to some witnesses yesterday, there's a little bit of a feeling that, you know, one witness told me she felt like it was a setup. And there's a little bit of a distinction between, you know, the people who were involved, maybe the witnesses, and the police department. And although it's early in the investigation, I think that that's, you know, an interesting point.

BALDWIN: Well, let me - let's start there with this whole notion of a setup because - so this all started - you reference the bathroom. This is at this restaurant called Twin Peaks.

MESSER: Yes.

BALDWIN: And from what I understand, you know, police were already on the scene.

MESSER: Right.

BALDWIN: So did they have some kind of heads up? I mean what kind of role does Twin Peaks play in all of this?

MESSER: Well, I think police would tell you that Twin Peaks management has been contacted for a while, that police have been staking out this same restaurant on Sundays for a while now and three different times instances have occurred. They got some intel from an officer, a detective, whose job it is to follow these and they believed that yesterday was, for some reason, going to be a bigger deal than the other occasions.

BALDWIN: What is this restaurant? Is this like a well-known spot where some of these, you know, gang members hang?

MESSER: Twin Peaks is like a casual dining restaurant. It's a lot like Hooters. It's got the same kind of feel. It's very like man cave. And they have some biker events. And I believe that, you know, police are saying that Twin Peaks knew about bikers frequenting the establishment and would not work with police to make that stop.

BALDWIN: On that, we know that according to this Waco police sergeant, you know, Twin Peaks didn't help prevent this. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SGT. W. PATRICK SWANTON, WACO, TEXAS POLICE: We attempted to talk with the local staff here at that restaurant, made them aware of issues that we were aware of. We didn't get any assistance from them. We'll be very open and public about that, and very transparent about it. Chips are going to fall where they may with that company or with that local management issue here at Twin Peaks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: All right, so that's the restaurant. But back, Olivia, to this number, 170 people arrested. What's happening to them today? Where are they?

MESSER: Well, overnight they were at convention center being detained. And I believe that the last bus to the jail went out about 7:00 a.m. We're talking about 170 - I actually think it's 174 warrants were signed on that same charge. And they're all being processed in the McLennan County Jail. And then our jail staff will have to figure out how to separate them as maybe necessary based on the gang rivalries.

[14:05:2] BALDWIN: Wow. Final question to you, you know, I'm hearing that there are fears that various different gang members are coming to town, to Texas right now. Can you talk a little bit about fears of retribution?

MESSER: Yes, I think a lot of people are afraid, including other kinds of emergency response professionals. I don't - you know they - police were saying yesterday that there was expected to be an influx. And this morning they said that did happen. That's slowing. And no other incidents have really occurred, so that's positive. But I don't really think we're out of the clear yet.

BALDWIN: OK. Olivia Messer from "The Waco Tribune-Herald." Olivia, thank you so much.

And just on that final point, Waco Police say there is absolutely the possibility of more violence, saying gangs are seeking to retaliate, not just against rivals, but against police.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SGT. W. PATRICK SWANTON, WACO, TEXAS POLICE: As of yesterday, we were receiving - we were receiving threats towards law enforcement. We were receiving information that individuals may be on the way here to try and back up their motorcycle gang brothers. We've been made aware of that. We certainly think that is credible information, and we're on the lookout for that as well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: With me now, Detective Alford Brown Jr. from the DeKalb County Gang Unit in the Atlanta area.

Detective, good to see you, sir.

DETECTIVE ALFORD BROWN JR., BIKER GANG EXPERT: Hi.

BALDWIN: Let me - let me just begin with where I ended with that reporter from the local newspaper there. I mean when you're hearing reports of gang members, right, coming to town, possibly for retribution, possibly targeting either other, you know, rival gang members or police, how do you, as a member of law enforcement, prepare for that?

BROWN: Well, of course, we're always aware of gang activity. We try to stay in touch with other law enforcement agencies to discuss gang movement and what they may be doing and what may be occurring across the country. We try to stay abreast of gangs at every possibility and we understand that they're violent, and we try to put measures in place to try to prevent that.

BALDWIN: I mean, clearly by, you know, hearing one sergeant saying it was the most gruesome scene he'd ever come across, incredibly violent. And when - when you talk about biker gangs, detective, who are these people? I know you've said being incarcerated is a rite of passage.

BROWN: Right, right. Well, you know, biker gangs started a while back, right after second world war and -

BALDWIN: Oh, wow.

BROWN: Basically they're the one percenters. The Motorcycle Association made a statement that 99 percent of bikers are law-abiding citizens. Then that 1 percent, which the biker gangs are, by that very definition, they consider themselves outlaws. So their whole premise is to commit crime and be violent.

BALDWIN: So what kind of crimes are they committing? What are they getting involved with?

BROWN: We find that they commit the gamut of crime. Anywhere from extortion, sex trafficking, gun running, extortion, and murder. There seems to be no limit on the type of violence they're willing to commit.

BALDWIN: And what is this about? I mean is this about territory, something as simple as that?

BROWN: Very simple, it's about profit. You know the whole idea of gangs and what they do is they're in business to commit crimes to make a profit because, in their assessment, money is power. And if controlled in those territories, they're able to control all the crime and the cash flow in those areas.

BALDWIN: And then as it comes to all these different gangs, can you just tell me a little bit more? I mean I understand there's a lot to do with color or even patches on the backs of their vests and jackets hold a lot of significance for these people.

BROWN: Right, particularly when you're speaking about motorcycle gangs or biker gangs, they usually wear about three patches. That center patch, which is their logo, and pretty much identifies who the gang is. Then they have a rocker across the top to state that. And then they've got - their third rocker at the bottom, which basically tells the territory that they operate in. And in terms of biker gangs, they use probationaries in their recruitment effort to do a lot of their bidding and then once that individual is considered a full member, then he receives his patch that say he's a full-fledged member.

BALDWIN: I know we have so much more on this next hour, including with someone who wants to be interviewed anonymously just because of his knowledge with all of this sort of subculture within these biker gangs. Detective Alford Brown, thank you so much for your expertise.

BROWN: You're welcome.

BALDWIN: Thank you. I appreciate it.

A major turn in the war against ISIS. American forces engaged in hand- to-hand combat during the secret raid to take out an ISIS leader. But was the risk worth the reward? We'll explore that.

Also, a new clue in the search for a killer. A mysterious mansion fire, a family killed, and now hear where the Porsche was found.

And I'll speak with the best friend of this daredevil who died during an illegal stunt inside of Yosemite National Park. What didn't happen in his final moments.

[14:10:02] You're watching CNN. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

And we're following some breaking news right now out of Iraq. Here's what we know. A city that U.S. men and women fought and died for has just fallen. An ISIS flag is now flying over Ramadi. A win for ISIS as it suffers what the U.S. is calling a significant blow. U.S. special forces fighting a hand-to-hand battle with the most brutal terrorists on earth. It is a rare and incredibly dangerous raid deep in ISIS controlled territory in Syria.

And the details of what went down are simply incredible. A U.S. official telling CNN that troops with the army's Elite Delta Force, they stormed this target with osprey aircraft, Black Hawk helicopters. But within seconds of landing, they were fired upon. ISIS militants doing something unthinkable, grabbing women, grabbing children, and using them as human shields.

But, incredibly, we're told U.S. forces managed to avoid killing them while simultaneously taking out a dozen ISIS fighters and one of the most wanted men in the world, known as Abu Sayyaf, a leader responsible for a key ISIS revenue stream, oil. And instead of killing his wife, the U.S. captured her along with what officials say are reams of ISIS intelligence, and they did it all with zero U.S. casualties.

[14:15:22] Joining me now first to talk about the significance of Ramadi, Nick Paton Walsh.

And on Ramadi, tell me why that city matters so much and what's happened there in the last 24 hours. NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, if you heard U.S. officials in the past month, they would say it wasn't that important, but it clearly is. It's part of the capital, a vital province in the west of Baghdad, Anbar, and it's a key heartland for the Sunnis in Iraq who often feel distanced to the Shia dominated Baghdad capital. But it's vital because it's basically the main road between ISIS' heartland in Syria to Baghdad, the capital, that they would like, if they possibly could, to enter into.

Now, there's been an intense fight over the weekend. Over a dozen suicide bombers, bulldozers used to cash their way in. the ISIS flag now over the city. Eight air strikes in just the last 24 hours by the U.S. They try and hold back ISIS, but the key issue is that the Iraqi army and security forces, having fought for it for months, actually pulled out, leaving behind a large amount of weaponry, which ISIS is now using, and leaving more troublingly Shia militia backed by Iran to potentially take up the fight now and try and reclaim it.

The U.S. has tried to say this isn't a massive loss, it's part of the back and forth of the war, but it is a devastating blow. They were supposed to be reclaiming all of Anbar, that province, rather than losing its capital in the months ahead. This is a real sharp shock for the U.S. coalition campaign against ISIS, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Nick Paton Walsh, thank you. The defeat here of this key city, Ramadi, happening just as the U.S. claims this textbook win over the terrorists in Syria, Delta Forces, as I mentioned, killing this ISIS leader, capturing his wife, and walking away with what the U.S. calls a treasure-trove of ISIS intel.

So let's talk about that piece of the story here with Jonathan Schanzer. He's a Mideast terrorism expert at the Foundation of Defense of Democracies.

Jonathan, welcome.

JONATHAN SCHANZER, MIDEAST TERRORISM EXPERT: Thank you very much.

BALDWIN: Let me just play some sound, first off, to tee this up. This is sound from Congressman Adam Schiff from "State of the Union" here on CNN.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA), PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE: So our intelligence was good. But, nonetheless, this was an extraordinary risk. If one of our people were captured, if we lost some of our special forces, there would be tough questions to answer about whether it was worth it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Whether it was worth it. That's where I wanted to begin with you because, you know, knowing the brutality ISIS is capable of, if they captured U.S. commandos, does the congressman, Jonathan, does he have a point, is it worth the risk? SCHANZER: Well, he has a point, but I think there are a couple of

other points worth making. One, I think there is some dispute right now as to whether this was, in fact, the intended target, the so- called CFO. We've been hearing some chatter from the region that perhaps there were other people who were intended targets, perhaps even higher level military targets. Of course, if there is that treasure-trove that was captured, laptop computers and other documents, it could be crucial to understanding those flows of finance because, of course, that financial war is a crucial one in battling ISIS.

BALDWIN: I want to get to the treasure-trove in a minute, but I wondered the same when I read his name, you know, why this ISIS leader would be so valuable, you know? And with so many ore high-value targets, I'm left wondering too how many raids, Jonathan, perhaps the U.S. is carrying out in secret that we just simply don't know about.

SCHANZER: Well, I would hope that there would be many more of them. And, of course, during this surge in Iraq, there were, you know, four or five of these sorts of raids every day. So, of course, the risk was just as high back then as it is now. I think there's just less of an appetite on the part of this administration to put boots on the ground as we all know.

BALDWIN: Right.

SCHANZER: And so now you see these raids happening less and less.

BALDWIN: When we talk about, too, this treasure-trove, the computers, the intel they grabbed, what do you think they're find? What do you think they're hoping they will find?

SCHANZER: Well, look, we know that a significant source of revenue for ISIS is the sale of oil. And we know that the sale of oil primarily happens over the Turkish border. There's a 565-mile border there where smugglers are bringing oil in and ISIS is able to reap the rewards. If we're able to identify who these individuals are, we could begin to see financial action taken against them by the U.S. Treasury Department. We could see operations against them. It would be really a major victory for us if we were able to secure that border in a way that oil could not be sold there.

BALDWIN: Did I read that you think the U.S. is not doing enough when it comes to this fight?

SCHANZER: Well, look, I think that the U.S. is, to a certain extent, not taking all the steps necessary. You know, there certainly is more room for raids along the lines of what we just saw over the weekend. That's one thing. I think, you know, we've seen a relatively small number of bombing raids take place relative to other actions that we've taken in the past. And so I think there's real concern.

[14:20:11] But I think more broadly, you know, we're looking at the response right now. Sure, we're calling in air strikes, but we're also allowing Iranian-backed militias to join the fight. And, of course, among those militias are Katib (ph) Hezbollah. This is a militia that has been designated by the U.S. Treasury for destabilizing Iraq designated back in 2009. And here we are allowing them to march in. So it's - but we're -

BALDWIN: But we've known that Iran - I mean I think - this fascinates me. We've known that Iran has supported this effort in Iraq. What do you think - what is Iran trying to do, really emerge as like the power player in the region?

SCHANZER: Oh, absolutely. I mean this is an aspiring hegemony (ph). They're looking to capture as much of Iraq as possible. And so when ISIS comes in and takes a town like Ramadi, Iran looks at this as an opportunity for them to come in with their militias and take over. And so you've got IRGC, the revolutionary guards of Iran, capturing more and more territory inside Iraq and Syria. This is very much a part of their strategy.

BALDWIN: Jonathan Schanzer, thank you so much. Come back.

SCHANZER: A pleasure.

BALDWIN: Tonight on CNN, speaking of ISIS, Fareed Zakaria's special report "How ISIS Shook the World," airs 9:00 Eastern and Pacific tonight only here on CNN.

Coming up next, a mansion murder mystery deepens in our nation's capital. Police searching for a person of interest captured on surveillance camera. All this happening blocks away from the official home of the vice president.

Plus, what went so wrong? An extreme sports legend is among two people found dead at Yosemite National Park. We'll tell his story, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:25:59] BALDWIN: A mystery is deepening into the murders of a prominent Washington, D.C., family living just blocks away from the vice president of the United States. Police say firefighters last week found the bodies of a corporate CEO, his wife, their 10-year-old son, and housekeeper inside of their burning home. Three of those victims, they say, suffered injuries from some kind of quote/unquote "blunt force or sharp object." The family's car, a Porsche, had been stolen the very same day and then found abandoned and torched in a Maryland suburb.

So, joining me now, former police officer, former FBI special agent Jonathan Gilliam.

And, I mean, it's eerie and horrible with this - with this family and to think of this 10-year-old. The first thing we were just discussing in commercial break as you were saying ATF called in and you sort of wondered why.

JONATHAN GILLIAM, FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT: Right.

BALDWIN: Tell me why.

GILLIAM: Well, there's a couple things. First of all, the location where this is at is really close to D.C. So any time you're in -

BALDWIN: When you say D.C., you mean, the White House?

GILLIAM: Right.

BALDWIN: Yes.

GILLIAM: It's close to that. So they're going to be called in to look at, you know, whatever possibilities this may have, if any nexus towards anything federal. The potential for organized crime based on the fact that, you know, what this guy might have been involved with as far as his company. But really I think the thing is, it was apparent that they used accelerants to keep the fire going in the house and to have it spread quickly, and the ATF is really the experts in that field, in accelerants, in any type of -

BALDWIN: Burn patterns.

GILLIAM: Burn pattern, right.

BALDWIN: What is a burn pattern?

GILLIAM: Well, so, you know, whether it's an explosive or somebody pours gas on something, you know, explosives actually - that's a burn. You know, it's something that's burning. It's just doing it at a rapid rate whereas like, you know, a fire may burn slowly. An explosion is something that moves at 25,000 feet, you know, per second. So ATF is very, very good at trying to go in there with their techniques and finding out where the fire started and where it spread from, what types of accelerants may be used because different accelerants have different burn patterns.

BALDWIN: To even have this sort of knowledge tells me that whoever did this knew exactly what they were doing.

GILLIAM: Well, you know, the - I don't know if they had the knowledge of the burn patterns, the people that did it, but they definitely, from appearances of the smoke - you know, when firefighters show up, they can tell usually pretty quickly what is causing this fire or at least what is burning because of the color of the smoke, the temperature of the fire. So firefighters can come in there and - and I think it was pretty apparent from the reports I'm reading that an accelerant was used. I don't know if they could smell it or see it or what exactly it was (INAUDIBLE).

BALDWIN: So when you hear about this, you know, apparently well-liked, pretty prominent D.C. family right there around the corner from the Naval Observatory, what's your first ring of suspects? People they knew?

GILLIAM: Well, you know, in this type of apparent homicide, what you typically look at is the - you know, who they do business with, who do they know on a regular basis? There's always the chance, like happened just north of here where, you know, criminals come in, take - like they did a home invasion, took over a home and had the mom go out and get money out of a bank and then they end up killing them and burning the house.

BALDWIN: In Connecticut, yes.

GILLIAM: That's always a possibility. But I think more often than not, this is - would be associated with something that was going on. As they start to dig into this stuff, they'll start to develop a pattern just like all the other investigations we talk about. This is a puzzle and each piece of this, when they start to put it together, you'll start to develop a little picture, little picture and then all of a sudden, bam (ph).

BALDWIN: But why the 10-year-old? If somebody wants to go after one person, why the wife, the 10-year-old, the housekeeper?

GILLIAM: Right. It's a message or they saw something. You know, I think - it depends on who did the killing, first of all. Are they just some dumb guy who was hired to go in there, lump everybody together, and kill them and just get out of there, or did they have a reason to do that? And that's where, you know, investigators are really going to start to go in and look at these things. And most people think, because there was a fire involved, that the whole crime scene is destroyed. But you would be very surprised, the locations of the bodies, how the fire spread, accelerants that were used, they will be able - and also video cameras. If this was a prominent neighborhood, there's going to be a lot of video cameras.

[14:30:10] BALDWIN: Hopefully there were cameras, right.

GILLIAM: And I - I really - if people saw anything that they think is suspicious -- I beleive it was on Friday -- notify authorites and let them know. Because it only take one piece of a puzzle to blow this thing completely out of the water.

BALDWIN: Jonathan Gilliam, thank you so much.

GILLIAM: My pleasure.