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Cleveland Cop Found Not Guilty; Protest In Cleveland After Officer's Acquittal. Aired 11a-12p ET
Aired May 23, 2015 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[11:00:00] JOE JOHNS, CNN HOST: So Michael Brelo found not guilty on all counts in Cleveland this morning.
CHRISTI PAUL, CNN HOST: And the judge also saying because they just -- he just could not get past the reasonable doubt that needed to be -- that threshold that needed to be met there. We want to pass it over to Fred, actually I'm sorry, Joey, Joey and Walter are still with us here.
Walter, you know this judge. I wanted to ask you, have you ever seen him take almost an hour to read a verdict?
WALTER MADISON, ATTORNEY: No, I have not. And under the circumstances, I do understand why. I believe that he wanted to be very particular about his findings of fact and his ultimate ruling. I think that you know, he did a very good job of that. He relied heavily on the medical examiner's testimony, as well as all the other witnesses.
And I think it was important in this instance, so that he is, you know, absolved from any personal bias. I was disappointed, no doubt about it. However, he relied on the law. And the inputs which are the charges and the indictment which he could not control, dictated his output.
I think that it was an inappropriate charge from the start. There were many other officers there and there could have been charges that would have implicated the other officers who did set this chain of events, which caused death, into motion which is exactly how and why Mr. Brelo was acquitted.
JOHNS: So Joey, one thing that the judge pointed out, is that causation was a real problem in this case. And it appears that that's one of the things that, that led to his decision of not guilty on both counts.
JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: He did indeed, Joe. You know it's interesting, though, whenever a judge acts as a finder of fact in addition to a concluder of law, the judge, of course, is placed in a position as a jury would be placed in. And it's interesting because the judge certainly could have gone another route had he credited expert testimony. And remember what the judge said, he evaluated and took the unusual step of getting off the bench, demonstrating as you see with the dummies that were there, the trajectory angles, what bullet caused what -- you know. And essentially what he was saying, Joe, was that you know, at the end of the day, it was a fatal shot that was fired by Brelo. But there were other fatal shots as well. And who's to say that those shots were not equally in terms of causing the death, responsible for causing the death.
Had he concluded that the expert is the expert said, that Brelo's shot was the cause of death, he certainly cover went the other way, did not draw such a conclusion. And as a result of that, said that it was not the straw that broke the camel's back. Causation could not be established and as a result, he would be found not guilty.
PAUL: Well the hope now is that things will stay peaceful in Cleveland, but of course, remember this is coming after a two-year justice department investigation that found Cleveland police used guns, tasers, pepper spray and their fists excessively, unnecessarily or in retaliation. And this particular case was part of that investigation.
So to look further into what's going to happen from this point on and to really examine this we want to send it over to our colleague, Fredricka Whitfield, who has also been sitting here with us watching the whole thing unfold -- Fred.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Thanks so much Joe and Christi. We're going to continue the conversation.
Walter Madison is going to stick with us, as well as Joey Jackson now talking about the acquittal of Officer Michael Brelo there in Cleveland, Ohio.
It's 11:00 on the East Coast right now. Hello, everyone. Welcome to the NEWSROOM. And also Avery Friedman, also in Cleveland with us now.
So this breaking news, a continuation of the discussion, a police officer found not guilty of voluntary manslaughter in the deaths of an unarmed man and woman, that of Timothy Russell and Melissa Williams. The verdict read just moments ago from the judge.
There you're seeing the tearful Brelo there, hearing that he is acquitted after being one of 13 officers who fired 137 shots killing Timothy Russell and Melissa Williams after a police chase back in November 29, 2012. Brelo jumped on to the hood of the car and fired into the windshield.
And you heard the judge there saying, while one of his shots, if not at least one of those shots may have led to a fatal injury it appeared based on medical examiner's report that likely the prior shots are what caused the deaths of those two people.
This is what the car -- you saw the image of the vehicle with the bullet-riddled windshield, that's what it looked like after the shooting. There again, the vehicle that they were driving.
Ryan Young is also live in Cleveland. He'll be joining us a reporter there on the scene. So let's talk more about how the judge rendered this decision. Again back with me, attorney Walter Madison, he's also the attorney for the Tamir Rice family out of Cleveland, Ohio -- that investigation still ongoing; Avery Friedman with us as well and Joey Jackson.
So Walter and Joey, we've been hearing from you all this morning. I want to hear from you as well, first, Avery this right in your backyard as well.
[11:05:05] This was an unusual style. Here we're talking about a Saturday, and a decision rendered by this judge.
It was Michael Brelo's decision not to have a jury trial but instead one commandeered by the judge. And the judge didn't just read his verdict. But he, he really set the stage, did he not, with the justification, as to why he rendered the decision. And these are live pictures right now of people reacting outside the courthouse upon hearing. In fact, think we can hear what they're, what they're saying, let's listen in.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No peace. No justice. No peace. No justice.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why? Why? Why, why, why?
WHITFIELD: Clearly --
A real disappointment there and sadness that this officer would be found not guilty of the deaths of Timothy Russell and Melissa Williams.
So Avery to you first -- the style of the judge as to essentially set the stage as to why he was rendering this decision -- how unusual is this or how necessary in your view might this have been?
AVERY FRIEDMAN, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Well I think what judge John O'Donnell was doing, Fredricka, was putting this case first of all in a national perspective. He talked about Ferguson, he talked about Charleston. He talked about New York. And he talked about Baltimore. And he explained how important the process involving the rule of law is.
And after setting that up, what he did, he was very precise in analyzing not only the specifics of what the experts had to say, but then making a determination of accepting and rejecting some of the expert testimony. And this is what happens.
Remember, if it were a jury, we may have seen a very different result. It would have been a Cleveland-based jury. But the defendant has the right to waive that, so it was on the shoulders of one individual, and that's Judge John O'Donnell and that's exactly what he did.
And I think within this community, that verdict is a surprise to many. Because I think the opinion at least, and these are non-legal opinions of course, but the opinion generally in the community is that it was pretty 50/50. Most, cut down the middle on whether or not there was going to be a guilty verdict here.
WHITFIELD: And Walter, if I could bring you into the equation here, you're in the studio with me, but Cleveland is your town as well. And so was this a surprise to you that a decision would be rendered this way? Even though the judge said based on a lot of medical testimony, he helped set the stage as to what bullet holes did what at what time to best you know, he could account based object the knowledge of the medical examiners?
MADISON: The conclusion and the manner is not a surprise. Cleveland all along has developed a practice and a pattern of releasing information late Friday or even on the weekend when it would get the least amount of attention.
As this case was brought in terms of indictment, we have to consider it in terms of input. The county controlled that. They selected this particular charge, this particular sole defendant out of all of those that you heard.
WHITFIELD: Why wouldn't -- a dozen police officers involved -- why did it fall on one officer, the one who was standing on the hood, carrying out the final shots, why would he be the only one who would be facing these charges?
MADISON: Well, certainly that's in the prosecutor's discretion but that's the real issue. We can't fault Judge O'Donnell for how he opined and found his conclusions of fact and law here. And for that matter, I agree. Causation always jumped out at me as a big problem in this case. Officers are issued the same weapons, same ammunition -- you know I don't know how they would have ever established causation on the part of Mr. Brelo. So, you know, input, bad input, bad output.
WHITFIELD: Joey maybe you can help people understand. Why is it that the prosecutors would only single out this one officer Michael Brelo from the very beginning and did anyone see that it might present some questions, even after trial, with just one officer, when you had 13 officers who were involved?
JACKSON: Well Fredricka, I think the overriding concern, concerning Brelo's conduct was just that -- his conduct. He was the officer, notwithstanding the fuselage of 140 shots or so approximately being fired. His gun, there were 49 that were fired. In addition to that he was the officer who jumped up on the hood and started discharging his weapon as the prosecutor said using, you know, the decedents here, the victims as target practice. And so they took issue, Fredricka, with his conduct.
But you know, when you look at the overall judge's decision, one of the things about the law is that essentially a judge, through reasoned judgment applying the laws to the facts, can reach any conclusion that they think is just.
[11:10:08] And, of course, whenever a judge puts themselves in a position -- and I shouldn't say puts themselves -- certainly the defendant opted to go with the judge. But the judge is now, Fredricka, acting as a finder of fact. That is they're acting in the province of a jury to determine what facts are provable, what facts are not.
And a judge could have gone a different way if he credited certain facts, for example, facts suggesting by medical testimony that Brelo's shot was indeed the shot that took the life of those victims. He decided that that was not clear to him and certainly was not proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Perhaps another judge may have reached another conclusion, perhaps a jury would have reached a different conclusion.
And so therefore, based upon the expert testimony, him saying that that shot alone did not establish to him, was the cause of the death and that was not the straw that broke the camel's back and therefore he opted to acquit.
WHITFIELD: All right. So Joey, stop it right there. And I'm hearing you Walter and Avery with your audible noises as to the judge's finder of fact. I want to get your comments on that in a moment.
But first, just moments ago, Brelo's attorney spoke outside the courtroom. Patrick D'Angelo, this is what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PATRICK D'ANGELO, ATTORNEY FOR MICHAEL BRELO: -- emboldened by it. But having said that, I would like to state that it was my privilege to have represented Officer Brelo. I could not have done it without the team that we had of Tom Shaughnessy (ph), Fernando Mack (ph) and Marissa Sarrat (ph). They were all equal and important contributors.
It's clear to me after a 37-year career that the civil rights lawyers that everyone talks about were on display in this courtroom. One of us, one of our citizens was taken on by the state of Ohio. And the prosecution in this case spared no expense and was in fact ruthless. But notwithstanding that, we fought tooth and nail as you saw in this courtroom.
It was classically a case of David versus Goliath. And at the end, you saw lawyering at I think its very highest level in this courtroom. And I don't say that as a braggart. I'm proud to have played a role in this case. And I hope that all the naysayers out there, all the so-called plaintiffs' lawyers that claim that they're civil rights lawyers and never have tried one of these damn cases to a verdict. But they're out there for a money grab all the time.
Officer Brelo as the judge's opinion set forth, risked his life on that night. We regret and we acknowledge that two people died. None of us like that and that in fact was a tragedy.
But at the end of the day, that tragedy was brought about by conscious decision-making and lifestyles that those two individuals, irrespective of their mental states, voluntarily took throughout their adult lives.
This society needs personal responsibility. And all of us need to look in the mirror. The NAACP has been at the forefront of the fight for civil rights. But the fight for civil rights should not be premised upon the color of one's skin. And many in this community that profess to be civil rights advocates and who claim all these lofty principles of setting innocent people free after they're wrongfully convicted and prosecuted --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WHITFIELD: All right. Sorry about that. We were still hearing from the attorney Patrick D'Angelo, the representative of Michael Brelo who said he was proud to be representing him and called this a ruthless act, the pursuit of this one officer, for all that took place on that November 29th.
Back with me now, Walter Madison and Joey Jackson and Avery Friedman, both Avery and Walter, you're familiar with Cleveland. This is your home town. And let me just go to you first, Walter because you said this in your view is classic victim-blaming, hearing from the attorney there who said you know, this was wrong, to pursue his client. And that the outcome is fair and just.
MADISON: And you know, I clearly disagree with that and so does the Department of Justice and our United States government when they wrote that scathing report about the excessive patterns of abuse and violence. Mr. Brelo should have been indicted, as well as others. Our focus clearly is on the input here, versus the output.
[11:15:08] I don't disagree with the operation of law. I think the judge came to a reasonable conclusion with what he had to make the decision. You know, what he had to base his decision upon. And I have tried cases, hundreds of them. And I can see this a mile away that causation was going to be an issue. It's unfortunate. Spent a lot of money prosecuting this case and rehashing the injury for this family and who they are and what they are has nothing to do with being shot 137 times.
WHITFIELD: So Avery, in your view, case closed? You know, involuntary manslaughter, not guilty. There's an acquittal of this officer. Is there any recourse for the prosecution to pursue any of the other officers, the other 12 officers?
FRIEDMAN: Well actually, unbeknownst to most there are pending criminal cases against a handful of the officers involved. Those cases are of a minor nature. But the case isn't over in terms of civil claims. I heard Patrick D'Angelo talking about civil rights lawyers. Well Patrick and I actually co-counseled in a case against the Ku Klux Klan.
So in a sense, Patrick was a civil rights lawyer in that case and he was a civil rights lawyer in a sense for Michael Brelo. His job was to assert constitutional protections and frankly, Judge O'Donnell bought it. So at the end of the day I'm not sure I understood what he was talking about after that.
I'm also in agreement with Walter and Joey, that in terms of what Judge O'Donnell did, in carefully looking at expert testimony, looking at the circumstances, that's the call that judges make as finders of fact. And it may very well be that it is the end of it in terms of the criminality issue. But I don't think it's the end of it in terms of civil -- potential civil claims.
WHITFIELD: All right. We've got more straight ahead. I want to continue our conversation with Avery Friedman, Joey Jackson and Walter Madison. And our Ryan Young who is there in Cleveland will also be joining us right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[11:20:35] WHITFIELD: Hello, everyone, I'm Fredricka Whitfield. Welcome to the NEWSROOM. Live pictures in Cleveland after police officer Michael Brelo is found not guilty of two counts of voluntary manslaughter in the case of November 29th, 2012. Two people in their vehicle were chased by police and 13 officers unloading their weapons on Timothy Russell and Melissa Williams, the two dying in their vehicle.
But the judge this morning, Judge John P. O'Donnell saying while there were fatal shots, administered by police officers, it was difficult to discern which fatal shots came from which officers. Helping to justify a not guilty verdict saying this officer, Michael Brelo was legally excused in his participation in what turned out to be the deaths of these two people.
You're seeing live pictures right now, police officers in riot gear and you're hearing from people there who were yelling earlier. Many were yelling "no justice, no peace". But clearly -- live pictures right now -- clearly people very upset with the verdict of not guilty for Officer Michael Brelo.
Let's continue our conversation with attorneys Walter Madison of Cleveland, but joining me here in Atlanta; Avery Friedman also in Cleveland and Joey Jackson, CNN analyst as well.
All right. So Joey, I want to hear from you because while -- while the judge even said it is likely that this is a case, that is you know, provoking a lot of emotion, not just in Cleveland but across the country, and now you're seeing images of people who are upset with this verdict. At the same time they're being met with police officers in riot gear and one has to wonder whether this helps quell, maintain peace, or if this helps instigate.
JACKSON: Sure, Fredricka. You know, the judge's job of course is to assess the facts before him. And make a decision on what those facts were in the court of law. I think there are certainly ways that you can disagree with the judge's decision if you, you know, disagree obviously with what this officer did. And there are ways that you could support it.
I think that the judge certainly is mindful of the very national climate of what's going on now and that's why he referenced the various other instances throughout the country where you saw police engage in shooting of unarmed people. But I think ultimately, another important thing to point out Fredricka is -- WHITFIELD: All right. Joey, let me just ask you to take a pause for
a moment.
JACKSON: Sure.
WHITFIELD: Live pictures right now. We want to listen in on what's taking place outside that courthouse there in Cleveland. You see police in riot gear also meeting up with protesters there. Let's listen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They stand their ground here, but -- and you could hear what they're chanting here -- no justice, no peace.
And Ramona Denise (ph) that is pretty much ending here at the doorway. I can tell you they're not about to let this crowd go into the justice center. But they have definitely pushed the sheriff deputies back inside.
I'm not sure if you have any questions for me, I'm not sure if I can hear you. But there's still a couple of security guards left out here.
WHITFIELD: All right. Live pictures, images and sound from our affiliate WOIO there outside the justice center there in Cleveland. And you saw earlier, police officers in riot gear now they have gone back into the building. But the protesters remain showing they are very upset about this verdict of not guilty of Michael Brelo, Cleveland police officer who was one of 13 officers who shot and fired at two of passengers in a vehicle, Timothy Russell and Melissa Williams, leading to their deaths.
But we heard from the judge, Judge John P. O'Donnell earlier today, that it's difficult to discern whose bullets rendered the last fatal moments of these two.
So back with me now, Walter Madison and Joey Jackson, Avery Friedman.
[112503] And Walter as you look at these images, what's taking place in your home town there in Cleveland. And seeing that people are not satisfied with the judge's very lengthy, nearly an hour-long explanation before he rendered his final verdict.
MADISON: Yes. Fredricka, the people, you know, they're in just complete disbelief because they know what happened. And in many instances, I don't want to get off this point. Our county prosecutor was once a judge. So he understands from the enforcement point of view as well as the judicial point of view what charges are appropriate. And I won't argue with their discretion, but there was some election at some point to select one individual, assign him sole responsibility for the deaths of these two people.
WHITFIELD: How does that decision come about?
MADISON: Well, that's a decision that they make exclusively. That's their discretion, they made that decision with whatever input or power there is may be. That's something he would have to answer and I don't know if the people can particularly point to that input as where this went wrong.
WHITFIELD: So are you inferring that that prosecutor would know about the real viability of that kind of charge on the one out of 13 officers prior to making that decision?
MADISON: We would hope our elected officials would have the experience, the temperament and the wisdom and leadership to have known that and known better. If there is a problem here, in Cleveland, I think a lot of the responsibility lies on those who selected just one individual. What happened here today was not unforeseeable.
WHITFIELD: Avery Friedman, back with us now, you're there in Cleveland. Has the discussion been in your view, particularly among attorney circles from the very beginning that this charge didn't seem appropriate for this crime? Or that there should have been more? Or that it was appropriate?
FRIEDMAN: Actually, I think it was appropriate. I watched this trial periodically from the 6th of April, all the way up to closing arguments in early May. I saw nothing in terms of the presentation by Tim McGinty who was the elected prosecutor and his professional staff, that suggested it was anything other than vigorous and professional and strong. There is nothing that we saw that would suggest anything other than the prosecutor meant business. And I think maybe what Walter is saying is that the prosecutor may have known in advance that this case was going to fail, if that's what he's saying. I don't agree with that.
WHITFIELD: All right. Avery, just hold it right there. We want to listen in on people who are now taking to the streets there. They were outside the justice center there in Cleveland. Now they're walking in the streets expressing their disappointment in this not guilty verdict.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Indict. He's guilty as hell.
Indict, convict -- the whole damn system is guilty as hell.
WHITFIELD: All right. You're looking at people who are upset about this not guilty verdict for the charges of voluntary manslaughter against Cleveland police officer Michael Brelo. Brelo as soon as he heard the verdict from the judge, he stood up, but he wept and then was escorted out.
Meantime people who are waiting the decision outside have gathered and they're expressing no justice, no peace. They're disappointed in the verdict feeling that more should have happened here.
Joey Jackson also with us out of New York. So Joey, your impressions here of what public sentiment, how it can be influential in a case such as this, or perhaps how it only leaves many to be hopeful that there may be more in this process of justice.
JACKSON: Sure, Fredricka. And you know, I think this is -- although it's speaking about Cleveland today, certainly there's a larger issue here as we saw in Baltimore as we were together there. And we see you know you can talk about in New York and Staten Island and Eric Gardner and Michael Brown. But ultimately, the other piece to this we should talk about, Fredricka, is that this judge not only found not guilty as to, of course, the voluntary manslaughter charge, but also found that the officer was justified on the lesser included which is the felonious assault. That is knowingly causing harm.
The officer was apparently according to the judge, in reasonable fear. That fear of a perception of a risk to his life was justified and therefore he was acquitted as to that too.
[11:30:00] And I think it fuels a larger perception of, you know, police, police conduct and a larger discussion of whether police are overly policing, overly aggressive.
But we also have to be mindful to other point, Fredricka, and that is, that was raised in the defense in this case that officers have decisions to make these actions and to engage in, that the decision to a take life or not take a life and whether those actions are reasonable or unreasonable that's a discussion we have to continue to have.
WHITFIELD: All right, let's take you live to Cleveland and CNN's Ryan Young is there. So Ryan, what's remarkable here too, you have a great mix of people, who are protesting, but you're also seeing in large part a rather more mature -- so Ryan Young, are you with me now?
RYAN YOUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I am, I got several people talking to me in my ear right now. Just a heads up, Fredricka, we were in this crowd after the judge talked about what happened inside the court.
Once we walked outside, everyone was very angry. In fact, we were going to talk to Brelo's attorney outside and that took a turn for the worse. Right now, you can see the officers in front of the courthouse. They're pushing the protesters down this direction. They are standing in the middle of the street.
They are just walking back and forth. I want to tell you a lot of people in court were wondering what was going to happen when the judge had the mannequins brought out into court.
And in fact, he gave such detail in terms of each shot and talked about the autopsy that was done. You can see some family members in court kind of like sighing every time he made a point.
You could see some people, who were behind the officer sort of upset. Not sure what was going on. This took almost 35 minutes for it to go down, and in the end, you could the officer start crying.
We talked to his attorney on the walk down as we were going to try to do an interview with him. He was saying he felt like Officer Brelo was tried in the media, tried in the public.
And he didn't get a fair chance to talk about what actually happened that night in terms of the decisions that were made by the two people, who were fleeing him in that car. So a lot of emotions here and we walked out with that attorney, the people who were here, who are protesting all mobbed around us and actually, the attorney had to leave this area for his safety and then that's when the sheriff's department came and surrounded the court house.
So it was an interesting moment, nothing violent so far, people are just screaming no justice, no peace -- Fredricka.
WHITFIELD: All right, so when you mentioned that your attempted interview with the attorney took a turn for the worse. You are talking about how when you were outside of the courthouse, there were people who are very vocal about their disappointment in the verdict. But that was the extent of it, right?
YOUNG: That is the extent of it. In fact, there are family members, who are, the two people who are shot out here as well. So you can understand their emotion as well. In fact, we're going to probably be talking to one of the family members in a short moment here.
But I want to tell you, when that attorney stepped out, his whole idea was in this entire community, he wants to make sure it remained peaceful.
His whole point was these two officers or the officers involved with him, 12 altogether felt like they were doing their job. That the care was moving forward. They fired shots because they thought they were under risk.
So there was a talk about that. He was very calm because his whole point was he wants this community to heal, but at the same time, he wants everyone to understand these officers he feels have been treated unfairly in this community as they've attached to all the shootings across this country.
He said you have to look at these cases separately. You know how emotions work. When we stepped outside, people got very hot and very upset that he was outside.
And obviously just for his own safety he walked back inside. In fact, some of the words that were being hurled at him we can't say on TV and that's, people calling white power and obviously he's not a part of that.
WHITFIELD: All right, Ryan Young, thanks so much. We'll check back in with you. I know you're going to be pursuing a family member and a cousin of Melissa Williams and Timothy Russell spoke moments ago and this is what they had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Rene Robinson?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you think about what's happening now? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let me tell y'all. It's wrong. That he wasn't charged. They should have been on trial. I'm going to tell y'all something right now. We can't even call the police because we're too scared because they might kill us.
We don't know what's going to happen, but how can you get on top of this car and not be charged? You know what you did. You know you're wrong. That's my family. That's my first cousin. That was my cousin, my baby cousin.
I'm going to tell y'all something right now, we have no justice. They are killing kids. They are killing women now. They just -- they are doing whatever they want to do and nobody is doing nothing about it, nobody -- no justice, no peace.
[11:35:08] No justice, no peace.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, sister. Y'all hold on to her OK? Y'all hold on to her, all right? Remember, we're going on the west side. We are going on the west side. There --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Carol, Carol -- what do you want the community to know about your cousin?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You say what? What do you want the community to know about your cousin, the kind of person?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know what, they putting her down because she was doing drugs or whatever. That don't mean that you have to kill a person. I'm going to tell you something. Why did they test the police officers? Why didn't they test them?
Out, they said OK, and all these drugs, why y'all didn't test the police officers. Why y'all didn't test them? Let me tell you something. Judges, police officers, even the newscast may do drugs. Everybody do something. But it's not, that's not a right.
You to kill them like that. Do you see what he did? You got on top of the car! Who does that because you didn't care? Now you all, you killed my family member, he ain't never coming back. But guess what, he could be with his family.
WHITFIELD: You're listening to one of the cousins of the victim there, Rene Robinson, clearly very upset. Melissa Williams, Timothy Russell were the two that were in that vehicle November 29th when police office, 13 in all, opened fire.
And you heard from the cousin there, who said all of those officers should have been on trial. It was one officer, one Cleveland officer, Michael Brelo, who was on trial, and you heard from the judge today, who rendered his decision, not guilty of voluntary manslaughter, two counts of voluntary manslaughter.
And so moments ago, our Ryan Young, also caught up with family member, who is were outside that justice center. Right now you're also seeing live pictures of many people who have taken to the streets. Expressing they're upset about this verdict. So Ryan, I understand you spoke with a brother?
YOUNG: Yes, he's actually standing right next to me. People have taken to the streets. I want to say it has remained peaceful out here. People are upset and they are yelling loudly. You were telling me something just a second ago. You said you will never trust --
ALFREDO WILLIAMS, SHOOTING VICTIM'S BROTHER: I will never a police, a deputy sheriff, any police, period. Never again, I will never call them to my house for anything. If somebody come and break into my house, I'm taking matters into my own hand, and that's how it is.
YOUNG: I know you're the brother of Melissa Williams who was in the car. Tell me first of all, when you heard the decision, how did you feel? And did you believe this was going to happen anyway?
WILLIAMS: I'm going to be honest. I believe that was going to happen because, you know, Pat Diaz looked at all the clean police off here in Cleveland, Ohio. He's a crooked lawyer. He's been crooked for many years. He been -- he works for Cuyahoga County. He represents all Cleveland police officers. His name is Pat De Angelo. He's their attorney.
YOUNG: When you heard the judge detail all the evidence and the reasons why he decided not to hold the officer guilty what was going through your heart as you were hearing those words?
WILLIAMS: I was so hurt I didn't know what to do. My mind went somewhere else. You know what I'm saying? But I hold my composure, you know. So I know where I'm at. You know, I'm in Cleveland so like told my family, if this case was tried in any other city that police would be in jail, right now. We know it, and they know it.
YOUNG: So many people in the community have talked about the fact that there were so many shots fired --
WILLIAMS: Hundred thirty seven, 137, Melissa had 49 bullets in her body. They say into that, and until Brelo got on the top of the hood of that car, they say if he wouldn't he got on the top of the hood of that car, Melissa Williams and Timothy Russell would still be living to this day. When he got on the top of the hood of that car and let that Glock off, he took them up out of here.
YOUNG: When you see what's happened to the city in terms of the people who were out here supporting your family, what do you hope happens now because everybody wants peace, well, what do you want to happen in the next 24 hours?
WILLIAMS: Well, I'm going to be honest. I want peace too, but my whole thing -- I want this case to be tried again. And like said, I would take my $10 million I got in my count, to try this case again in another county, in another city because I'm going to try the case again.
Because I'm, today I'm going to go home, talk to some lawyers. We are going to try this case again. This ain't over. This is not over. He got to pay and it is what it is, man. You know he got to pay. He got to pay.
YOUNG: Speak about the emotions of your family just in terms of what --
[11:40:04] WILLIAMS: My family hurt. You know, my grandmother just had -- my grandmother just fell out. She's sick over there, she fell out. She couldn't stand up down here. When she heard the verdict, she went ballistic. This man got found not guilty of murder?
YOUNG: Now you know there are people in the community who are pointing the blame at your sister and the guy who was driving the car for putting the officers' lives in danger. When you hear people talk about that in terms of personal responsibility --
WILLIAMS: My sister could never have put the officers' life in danger because first of all, Melissa Williams wasn't driving. Timothy Russell was driving. So that ain't got nothing to do with my sister. By the way, like they said early on the news, talking about Russell would have stopped. They would still be living.
No, they wouldn't. They already had bullets in them. They were shooting at them when they were chasing them. So -- what we got with this?
YOUNG: The fact that they didn't have any weapons at all.
WILLIAMS: No weapons at all, unarmed, no weapons. So how you explain it?
YOUNG: What happens next?
WILLIAMS: That's what I want to know. What happens next? I want to go worldwide and let them see what dirty police do and that's what they do. They hurt everybody in this community. I'm tired of my black folks dying.
What did you shot for? He reached. He reached for a gun or he reached for this, he reached for that? Enough is enough, man. You know, these Cleveland police get off every time they commit a crime. Every time they murder somebody, they get off. I'm dead serious, they get off, because they got Pat De Angelo.
YOUNG: You have no trust in the justice system.
WILLIAMS: I don't trust them at all. I never trusted them, ever in life, in history, never. I tell you one thing. Don't let me catch them doing nothing because I'm putting them on blast. Every time I see them, it's going to be on YouTube, Facebook. They better never let me catch them doing nothing because they're going to be on TV. It's real, man, just like that.
YOUNG: Alfredo is the brother of Melissa Williams, Melissa Williams was killed. Thank you so much for talking to us. This is a picture that he's carrying around. There are several people who have pictures like this as they are walking through the crowd. Fredricka, you can feel his passion, but one of the things he's saying is they want to make sure there's peace in the community. The family is saying they want to press forward with their own kind of case against this officer. Not sure what goes on from there.
WILLIAMS: And I have something else to tell you, too. They told, when I just beat the -- not, when I was found not guilty, they accused me of threatening Brelo and the security guard. They knew I drive a car.
If we pull Alfredo Williams over, we throw a gun in his car and a bag of dope and say he reached for it and we shoot him. And you never hear about the case.
YOUNG: Obviously you can tell the obvious the passion that strong here, Fredricka, thank you, sir. People are still marching in the street as we speak. But again, so far, the officers are keeping a soft perimeter, there's no mix-up in terms of anybody pushing each other right now. And can you hear the passion in his voice about his sister. And what's happened with the officers today.
WHITFIELD: All right, Ryan Young, thanks so much. We're going to check back with you. Right now speaking not far from where you are, Cleveland Councilman Zack Reed. Let's listen in.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- second location, on the west side, but is it more peaceful than you thought it would be?
CLEVELAND COUNCILMAN ZACK REED: Shock. Did you think that two innocent individuals were shot 137 times, more times than Bonnie and Clyde and that at the end of the day, the judge came up with a decision that he came up with? I think they're still in shock.
But for us, we've got to uphold the law. And therefore, they've got to uphold the law, we as elected officials have to uphold the law, and we can't let this one decision define the city of Cleveland.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And Zack, I have a question for Ramona. I got to give it to you word for word here as she asked. Go ahead, Ramona.
Sure. Sure. Ramona, obviously knows you very well and knows how you have followed this closely and how you're always in touch with your constituents.
She wants to know what they're saying to you, and what they were saying, if it was going to be a not guilty verdict, and what you've heard if anything already from your constituents?
[11:45:05] REED: I can say in my community that most people believe that he was going to be found guilty of something. And therefore, now it's my job to go back out into my community to hear from them firsthand what their reaction is.
But before the verdict was rendered here today, the people that I spoke of saying that they believe that although he may not go to jail for the ultimate manslaughter, that he would go to jail for something. And I thought the judge laid out a case that said, that when it came to the felonious assault, that burden of proof is not as great as the manslaughter. But he then came to the conclusion that we give police officers the standard if they ever believe that their life is in danger, they have the right to do what Brelo did.
And that's what the judge said. That he believed, Brelo believed that his life was in danger. So we got to go back out to our communities as elected officials and community leaders to say that although we may not agree wholeheartedly with any decision that's laid out, we live in a country of law and order.
And looting and rioting is not the way that we get to the ultimate goal of law and order and justice. There's going to be an election in 2016. There's going to be an election in 2017. That's the time that we go to the ballot to show where we feel our frustration should be handled.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There you go, thank you so much, Councilman.
REED: Ramona, thank you very much for all your help.
WHITFIELD: All right, we were listening to Cleveland Councilman Zack Reed there who is impressing the people out in the streets protesting, he said they are shocked.
They are shocked about this not guilty verdict, rendered by the judge for Cleveland Police Officer Michael Brelo, who was facing two counts of voluntary manslaughter as it relates to the shooting deaths of two people in their vehicle, that of Timothy Russell and Melissa Williams.
You heard from Ryan Young earlier, who spoke with the brother of Melissa Williams, who now says, there wasn't much trust in the Cleveland Police before this and now at least he's speaking for himself, there's no trust whatsoever.
Also with us now is former Cleveland Police Chief Patrick Oliver. Chief, perhaps you can speak to the fact that people have expressed they have not trusted, they have not felt comfortable with the police.
And we know that there was a two-year Justice Department investigation, which just recently revealed that after this investigation it was found that Cleveland police use guns, tasers, fists and pepper spray excessively and unnecessarily or in retaliation.
And so now you have this verdict. What are people to think about Cleveland police? Police chief, are you with me? Patrick Oliver?
PATRICK OLIVER, FORMER CLEVELAND POLICE CHIEF (via telephone): Yes, I am here.
WHITFIELD: All right, well, I'm wondering if you have an opinion as to what people should think about their continued mistrust. We just heard of one of the brothers of the victims, who says he no longer trusts the Cleveland police and now after a decision like today, he's going to have to take matters into his own hands.
What's your thinking or feeling about the trust or the lack thereof of Cleveland police and even more so now, after this not guilty verdict?
OLIVER: Well, as far as the not guilty verdict is concerned. I think that's proper decision, because proof beyond a reasonable doubt is about a 95 percent weight of probability that the person is guilty of the offense and that type of evidence was not offered in this case.
However, the issue of police legitimacy and procedural justice is really the key question. People have a lack of trust in the police when they believe their actions aren't legitimate and they're not appropriate based on the circumstances. So that is the key question here.
WHITFIELD: Especially after this decision and perhaps even after the Justice Department's investigation, a two-year investigation, which recently found that Cleveland police used guns, tasers, fists and pepper spray excessively and unnecessarily, or in retaliation, your response to the kind of problem that Cleveland police has?
OLIVER: Well, those certainly are a lot of serious issues and allegations, and the Justice Department in their investigation to determine whether there's a pattern or practice of civil rights violations believes that those things have occurred in the Cleveland Police Department.
And so now I think the police department has to look at all of those things and they will, based on stipulations that are developed to determine how they can change practices in the police department to insure that there is procedural justice, to ensure they're not violating civil rights, and to develop a closer relationship with the community so those are all serious and allegations, yes.
[11:50:12] WHITFIELD: Were there practices and problems that you felt when you were police chief that did not go addressed or needed still to be addressed, how different is it today than when you were police chief?
OLIVER: Well, that's a little difficult to say. That was about 21 years ago and certainly there were problems and challenges in the police department then. But during my tenure there, I didn't see a number of incidents that rose to this level.
WHITFIELD: So in police circles today, I mean, given you were police chief many years ago, but clearly many of your contemporaries or colleagues are still police officers or still very much entrenched in the police community. What have been the discussions among colleagues about the state of Cleveland police?
OLIVER: Cleveland police wants to get better and they want to work with the Justice Department to try to get better. They are very concerned about improving the relationship in the community. They are very concerned about the very few officers they believe they have that make a pattern or practice of violating civil rights. I know Chief Williams and his command staff is very concerned about these things and wants to address them.
WHITFIELD: This decision in your view, how does this impact policing in Cleveland?
OLIVER: I think it has a negative impact on policing in Cleveland because when the public doesn't perceive that policing is done in a legitimate way or that they can get procedural justice, it is going to have a negative impact on policing.
So no question the police department and the community will be negatively impacted based on how many in the communities, minority, perceive this decision.
WHITFIELD: This isn't the only case that has put Cleveland in the spotlight recently as it pertains to police conduct. There is still the ongoing case of Tamir Rice, the young man who was shot by police, he was holding a toy gun.
Police alleged that they thought he was wielding a real gun and that police officers who administered that fatal shot still has not been interviewed.
These two cases are very different. But since that Tamir Rice case is still ongoing, does this underscore one of the problems or practices in your view that needs reform there in Cleveland. Is this systemic? Is this an example of a systemic problem?
OLIVER: I certainly think it needs review. I think the key issue is one of police tactics and sort of how do you properly engage police tactics during a potential shooting incident. So it is a concern. No question about it.
WHITFIELD: And then what now? We heard that question being asked by the brother of Melissa Williams who said, you know, I want to know, what now? What now when it means a crime or a problem has occurred? Can anyone in the community feel that they have the confidence to call Cleveland police? Can they count on them? In his words, he says he's willing to take matters into his own hands. What do you say to people who feel that way?
OLIVER: They need to approach the police department. Hopefully the police will engage them to try to get involved in the quality and scope of police services. In the spirit of community based policing, it is really a call for police and community to work together to prevent, reduce and solve crime because crime is a community problem. Police give full time and attention to responsibility that really incumbent upon every person in the community.
WHITFIELD: What do you want to see next?
OLIVER: I think that the Cleveland police would probably benefit from a police management audit, a top to bottom review, their operations and administration to look at both the quality and scope of police services.
And I would like to see them fully engage the community in an ongoing dialogue and make them a part of how policing is done. I think that would be helpful. I suspect that they are at least working on the latter, the community engagement piece.
WHITFIELD: Do you feel it will mean an outside agency, perhaps even outside of Ohio? We know the Justice Department released its report recently, but is this a matter that a federal agency needs to take part in or do you think this strictly as a contemporary state -- fellow state that should get involved or a third party from some other city, municipality.
[11:55:06] OLIVER: I think it needs to be a third party involved as far as management is concerned. Get police practices experts who can do that top to bottom review. As far as the federal government, well, they're already involved so they will be negotiating stipulations that will be placed in either a consent decree or a memorandum of agreement.
WHITFIELD: Former Cleveland Police Chief Patrick Oliver, thank you so much for your time and insight. Appreciate it.
OLIVER: You're welcome, Fredricka.
WHITFIELD: We'll have much more right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: Hello again, everyone. Thanks so much for joining me. I'm Fredricka Whitfield in the NEWSROOM.
Breaking news now, a police officer in Cleveland found not guilty of all charges in the deaths of an unarmed man and woman in Cleveland. The verdict read just moments ago.
Michael Brelo was one of 13 officers who fired 137 shots killing Timothy Russell and Melissa Williams after a police chase in 2012. Brelo jumped on to the hood of the car and fired into the windshield at the time. Earlier today Judge John P. O'Donnell said the officer was legally excused.
